SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

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Re: SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

Post by Norade » 2010-07-07 06:09pm

Darkevilme wrote:I've only just realized something. Is there any particular reason that ship troop capacity for warships is bought at a ratio of $1 buys you $0.12 of troops? and this is the best case of elites with elite equipment.
Well, considering a C-17 Globemaster III can hold at most 134 troops and it's 53 meters long and the 747 holds at most 550 while being over 60 meters long it's just an issue of space.
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Re: SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

Post by Darkevilme » 2010-07-07 06:27pm

Norade wrote:
Darkevilme wrote:I've only just realized something. Is there any particular reason that ship troop capacity for warships is bought at a ratio of $1 buys you $0.12 of troops? and this is the best case of elites with elite equipment.
Well, considering a C-17 Globemaster III can hold at most 134 troops and it's 53 meters long and the 747 holds at most 550 while being over 60 meters long it's just an issue of space.
I just find it a little odd is all. I mean i know we get free spacewagons for our troops but if you want to put them on a warship with guns. Well. lets take a hybrid troopship warship of 400 points with the split equal. This means it carries 400,000 troops, which is a big number sure. But it equates to a strength, when measured against the defensive garrison of a planet, of $24 which is barely enough in this universe to conquer starbucks let alone a colony world with a garrison of $200 worth of troops.
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Re: SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

Post by Norade » 2010-07-07 06:33pm

Darkevilme wrote:
Norade wrote:
Darkevilme wrote:I've only just realized something. Is there any particular reason that ship troop capacity for warships is bought at a ratio of $1 buys you $0.12 of troops? and this is the best case of elites with elite equipment.
Well, considering a C-17 Globemaster III can hold at most 134 troops and it's 53 meters long and the 747 holds at most 550 while being over 60 meters long it's just an issue of space.
I just find it a little odd is all. I mean i know we get free spacewagons for our troops but if you want to put them on a warship with guns. Well. lets take a hybrid troopship warship of 400 points with the split equal. This means it carries 400,000 troops, which is a big number sure. But it equates to a strength, when measured against the defensive garrison of a planet, of $24 which is barely enough in this universe to conquer starbucks let alone a colony world with a garrison of $200 worth of troops.
I guess that's because those would be the Marines landing under fire. The rest land after you've pacified the space forces. That said I don't see why you couldn't get more value for your space by bringing tanks and fighters along.
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Re: SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

Post by Steve » 2010-07-07 06:33pm

That's why you throw a full invasion at them, if you have a "hybrid" troopship then it is something you'd use for more dedicated roles, like clearing the way for the other landing forces by securing a potentially hot landing zone, or conducting raids, seizing orbital stations, stuff like that, since the troop carrier has some anti-ship capability and stronger defenses.

Or you use them for dedicated suppression missions against ye olde fringe world yokels. :mrgreen:
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Re: SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

Post by Simon_Jester » 2010-07-07 07:12pm

Darkevilme wrote:I've only just realized something. Is there any particular reason that ship troop capacity for warships is bought at a ratio of $1 buys you $0.12 of troops? and this is the best case of elites with elite equipment.
Because a troopship with warship-grade protection is much, much less volume efficient than a troopship that's basically a steel balloon built around a barracks, with a hyperdrive welded on the back? Thus, high cost.

Some nations have "super-elites" that don't suffer this problem so much, units with extremely high equipment multipliers mostly, but they are relatively small in number in any case. For practical purposes, battleship-transports are wildly inefficient.
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Re: SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

Post by Norade » 2010-07-07 07:17pm

Simon_Jester wrote:
Darkevilme wrote:I've only just realized something. Is there any particular reason that ship troop capacity for warships is bought at a ratio of $1 buys you $0.12 of troops? and this is the best case of elites with elite equipment.
Because a troopship with warship-grade protection is much, much less volume efficient than a troopship that's basically a steel balloon built around a barracks, with a hyperdrive welded on the back? Thus, high cost.

Some nations have "super-elites" that don't suffer this problem so much, units with extremely high equipment multipliers mostly, but they are relatively small in number in any case. For practical purposes, battleship-transports are wildly inefficient.
Wait, we can have better than x3 kit for our soldiers? I may just do that.
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Re: SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

Post by Steve » 2010-07-07 07:19pm

Norade wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:
Darkevilme wrote:I've only just realized something. Is there any particular reason that ship troop capacity for warships is bought at a ratio of $1 buys you $0.12 of troops? and this is the best case of elites with elite equipment.
Because a troopship with warship-grade protection is much, much less volume efficient than a troopship that's basically a steel balloon built around a barracks, with a hyperdrive welded on the back? Thus, high cost.

Some nations have "super-elites" that don't suffer this problem so much, units with extremely high equipment multipliers mostly, but they are relatively small in number in any case. For practical purposes, battleship-transports are wildly inefficient.
Wait, we can have better than x3 kit for our soldiers? I may just do that.
Yes..... I do recall saying those were guidelines. :P
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Re: SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

Post by Coyote » 2010-07-07 07:45pm

You're carrying not just troops, but their gear. Trust me, it gets bulky. Quick. :wink:


Also, Stas, I hope that works. Let me know if anything needs to be amended.
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Re: SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

Post by Steve » 2010-07-07 07:55pm

I'll try to get the next post in the Outback storyline done tonight. I've been holding off on giving story posts to more Westminster characters so I can keep this story rolling.

Anyway, our next story post shall have a jailbreak attempt, Syrandi meeting the arrogant Sir William, and quite possibly a short lightsaber beamsaber duel. :P

Plus more from Sara and Rana. They make such a cute couple, don't they? :)
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Re: SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

Post by Kartr_Kana » 2010-07-07 08:01pm

Yep if you look at the Hiigaran Marines they're 20,000/$1 as opposed to 50,000/$1 for elites and they have a x5 multiplier. They're some bad ass motherfkers!!
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Re: SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

Post by Teleros » 2010-07-07 08:26pm

Steve in the Diplomatic Thread wrote:OOC Note: The Hiigaran Fleet Carriers are basically the largest units coming, save for the six or so Imperator-class Star Cruisers being sent by the Royal Navy as the centerpiece of the force (as they carry the elite Royal Marines that will sweep away the poorly-armed, poorly-trained Pendletonian ground troops from landing zones, as well as ensuring sufficient capital ship firepower is present to bash any suspected surprises - those being surplus battleships secretly bought by the Pendletonians of course, not intervention by Collectors, which nobody has a whiff of yet). Most of the force desired would be lighter ships, as stated below $100 in value, that can be used to deal with the Light and Ultralight-dominated Pendletonian Navy (alongside the Hiigaran carriers' wings) and finally to sustain a blockade of the system to prevent ships from fleeing the suppression.
The Altacar Empire is rather used to the logistical support problems involved (it has quite a few squadrons on patrol out in the middle of nowhere - like the Outback), so if you want to include that Battlecruiser you're welcome Steve. It's a £120 ship, but only £100 defence, owing to it being a classic battlecruiser (ie built for guns & speed, not defence), so it's up to you if you want it or not.


What else... I've also updated the Altacar Empire's navy page on the Wiki. Techie info, plus some quick SketchUp pics of what my warships* look like.

* Most freighters will be designed for easy bulk carrying, unless they're fast designs for carrying, say, expensive perishable goods.

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Re: SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

Post by Steve » 2010-07-07 08:37pm

The battlecruiser may be brought along then, but that'd be it for heavier units beyond the Anglian ships and the Hiigaran carriers.
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Re: SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

Post by Simon_Jester » 2010-07-07 08:56pm

Kartr_Kana wrote:Yep if you look at the Hiigaran Marines they're 20,000/$1 as opposed to 50,000/$1 for elites and they have a x5 multiplier. They're some bad ass motherfkers!!
Though the record (rightly) goes to Fin's Adeptus Astartes...
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Re: SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

Post by RogueIce » 2010-07-07 10:04pm

Simon_Jester wrote:
Darkevilme wrote:I've only just realized something. Is there any particular reason that ship troop capacity for warships is bought at a ratio of $1 buys you $0.12 of troops? and this is the best case of elites with elite equipment.
Because a troopship with warship-grade protection is much, much less volume efficient than a troopship that's basically a steel balloon built around a barracks, with a hyperdrive welded on the back? Thus, high cost.
Indeed. And the advantage being, obviously, a greater chance at surviving a 'forced landing' where it's not totally secure. Take a look at my prolouge post for how horribly wrong* things can go if the place you're landing your big offscreen-provided Troop Transports still has some sort of capable resistence hiding.
Simon_Jester wrote:Some nations have "super-elites" that don't suffer this problem so much, units with extremely high equipment multipliers mostly, but they are relatively small in number in any case. For practical purposes, battleship-transports are wildly inefficient.
Indeed. Keep in mind that the combat value of the troops is limited to the dollar amount dedicated to transporting them (as stated in the rules). Granted, running into a limit of $50 combat troops (100,000 of them) would be pretty rare, and probably require either absurd multipliers or just a very tiny unit buy (3,000 troops for $1 and the like).

For the most part, though, you probably won't run into the combat power limit so you can use the full troop space for anything from Regulars to Elites.

*And no, that post doesn't automatically mean that some flight of shuttles or whatever will always have the power to down a troop transport (in fact, due to the ambiguity, it doesn't even say that much; it was various ground fired missiles of an unknown quantity and quality that did the job). It's just an example that the off-screen provided Troop Transports are not really that well defended. A hybrid troop carrier/warship, on the other hand, would be better protected.
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Re: SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

Post by RogueIce » 2010-07-07 10:06pm

Stas Bush wrote:Formalities matter. If you're technically a republic, you don't have kings, right? ;)
Indeed we do not have a king. Thus I would safely conclude we do have some sort of diplomatic contact and can dispatch ambassadors and such as needed.

Just checking. :)
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Re: SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

Post by Norade » 2010-07-07 10:26pm

Not trying to compete with Fin I made mine the same and then read the post. These are the heavy assault drones that would generally be first on the ground in any boarding. The reason I went so high quality is, as a mainly asteroid and space station confined power, we built units to fight under our conditions and thus have no tanks relying on fighters and drop ships to be our force multipliers.

The backbone of my army are just soldiers with armor and some guns, decently equipped, but nothing special.
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Re: SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

Post by CmdrWilkens » 2010-07-07 10:52pm

Stas Bush wrote:
Teleros wrote:I find it hard to believe that the Commune doesn't maintain some sort of official contact with nations it is hostile towards. Some neutral meeting ground perhaps?
I said it does. For all, except monarchies and capitalist autocracies. And why bother with them anyway?

...hmmm that would make the Servian Republic an oddball because there is A monarchy...but it has been legally barred from holding executive or legislative office and functions only as the high priest of the state religion. So would we be chatting with one another or silent?
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Re: SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

Post by Ryan Thunder » 2010-07-07 11:37pm

Would it break any rules if I have robotic Armoured Cores like this?

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Re: SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

Post by Simon_Jester » 2010-07-07 11:59pm

So for my latest post, it occured to me that the economic and political environment of Umeria would be perfect for the creation of one of everyone's favorite smugglers...
Norade wrote:Not trying to compete with Fin I made mine the same and then read the post. These are the heavy assault drones that would generally be first on the ground in any boarding. The reason I went so high quality is, as a mainly asteroid and space station confined power, we built units to fight under our conditions and thus have no tanks relying on fighters and drop ships to be our force multipliers.

The backbone of my army are just soldiers with armor and some guns, decently equipped, but nothing special.
I'm in a similar position: the bulk of my army, both cost and manpower-wise, is in relatively low-grade regular and garrison formations, with a sprinking of 'normal' elites. But I paid 500$ for a million super-elite "strike" troops (very high equipment multiplier, mix of combat drones like yours, elite power armor troops, and very high end armored vehicles). Those guys are my spec-ops, and they're the only ones I bother deploying on my armed cruiser-transports, because otherwise I couldn't put a militarily significant ground force on them.

Fin's Adeptus Astartes could take down my Strike troops at six or seven to one odds, and tie at eight to one. And I have no problem with that at all; in my book, it's an honor to be that close.
Ryan Thunder wrote:Would it break any rules if I have robotic Armoured Cores like this?
[posts spiky robot picture]
Presumably not, but they're armored fighting vehicles. The logical thing to do is ask "how many of my infantry is one of these Armored Cores worth?" Then figure out a "soldiers per dollar" figure from there and check it with Steve, but with the flavor that "100 troops" or whatever is actually one Armored Core plus its maintenance unit or something.

That's what I'm doing for all my armored units. The tanks attached to my "100000 men per dollar" infantry formations are worth quite a bit more than 0.00001 dollars each. But since each one is probably about equivalent to an infantry platoon, I just figure that some of my "100000 men per dollar" units are 3000 infantry and some are 100 tanks, or whatever.
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Re: SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

Post by Steve » 2010-07-08 12:19am

At this point I think the Pendleton smackdown fleet is as big as it can get given the expected opposition and the logistical issues. Aside from the Altacaran BC and Hiigaran fleet carriers, the rest of the forces accepted are all of the lighter types. So far I believe they are: Umerian, Empire Star Republic, Shepistani (only the destroyers), and Baerne (sans the 10 heavy cruisers in Baerne's offer).

Due to time and logistical constraints the Zorian and Shinra forces offered are not going to be brought into the invasion fleet (it'd take you too long to get to Lochley's Retreat and then to have your drives, off that fairly long trip, overhauled for crossing the Gap) but would be welcomed as reserve units to be kept on the Bannerman side of the Gap to cut off any Pendletonian ships that get through the blockade.

Tianguo will likely have their offer of support taken up in terms of asking for logistics ships and experienced shoal space pilots for them, to help maintain the occupation after it commences. All further offers of help would see a similar request.


That said, I think the best potential here as we lead up to tbe beatdown and get through it is the disposition of Pendleton afterward. A-Wing has the right idea in that his state is joining up, in part, so it can also get a seat at the table and prevent Anglian annexation of Pendleton.
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Re: SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

Post by PeZook » 2010-07-08 12:30am

Akhlut wrote: She's clearly a subprime speciman, anyway: she has to falsify her plumage color in order to entice mates! She's also too thin to properly lay eggs and not get health complications.

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Re: SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

Post by Beowulf » 2010-07-08 12:57am

Simon_Jester wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote:Would it break any rules if I have robotic Armoured Cores like this?
[posts spiky robot picture]
Presumably not, but they're armored fighting vehicles. The logical thing to do is ask "how many of my infantry is one of these Armored Cores worth?" Then figure out a "soldiers per dollar" figure from there and check it with Steve, but with the flavor that "100 troops" or whatever is actually one Armored Core plus its maintenance unit or something.

That's what I'm doing for all my armored units. The tanks attached to my "100000 men per dollar" infantry formations are worth quite a bit more than 0.00001 dollars each. But since each one is probably about equivalent to an infantry platoon, I just figure that some of my "100000 men per dollar" units are 3000 infantry and some are 100 tanks, or whatever.
The dollar values attached assume that the equipment includes everything that formation would be using, so a 100000 man formation will roughly tie another 100000 man formation of the same $/man value, regardless of how they are equipped. This may mean that a force that's entirely trained and equipped for small unit action, without tanks and artillery may be better equipped as far as infantry goes, but at the big picture level, those forces would tie, if you actually got them on the same battlefield, in the same numbers.

For example, Tianguo's Taikongjun Heijiake force would have better individual equipment than the Lujun's Weibing, even though they have the same $/man, simply because the Heijiake don't have room for tanks and artillery, etc, on board ship, and wouldn't be able to utilize them in boarding actions. However, stick a battalion of Heijiake on a battlefield against a battalion of Weibing, and you could toss a coin to figure out who would win.
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Re: SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

Post by Simon_Jester » 2010-07-08 01:26am

Again, I treat it as a numbers issue. Pieces of heavy equipment count as multiple "men" for purposes of point cost. The armored units attached to a generally bland army are themselves bland and not elites, and their value is proportionate to that of the troops they're attached to. Assume one tank is worth a platoon, and the tanks of a garrison force are worth a garrison platoon while the tanks of an elite force are worth an elite platoon. The same quality ratio (4:1 or whatever) still holds.
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Re: SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

Post by Dark Hellion » 2010-07-08 01:30am

I have been very busy for a while but I should be able to put some stuff up tomorrow. Space robots are coming...

I should hopefully have some diplomatic and story stuff up within the next few days as well.
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Re: SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor » 2010-07-08 01:56am

The Imperial Army, regardless what type, has armored units as part of the Order of Battle, even on Battle Barges or assorted Astartes transports.
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