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 Post subject: Re: An SDNW Proposal PostPosted: 2010-04-20 06:41pm
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So I'm still thinking of playing a bit of an unusual nation this time. Anyone mind if I have less fertile worlds in exchange for a couple of extra sectors? I'm thinking so far just a loose coalition of independent states, all dusty and rural.

vv
That'd work. With a name like the Outlander Commissions you can't really do anything industrialized and centralized and have it fit.



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Last edited by loomer on 2010-04-20 06:45pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: An SDNW Proposal PostPosted: 2010-04-20 06:44pm
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I was contemplating a system where we all get a base amount of points, additional points by dice roll to give some capability variety, and a base number of sectors of varying development level. You could, feasibly, invest your points in extra sectors and lots of late-terraformed worlds to go with sparsely-populated Earth-like planets (perhaps sacrifice GDP for size).



”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

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 Post subject: Re: An SDNW Proposal PostPosted: 2010-04-20 07:47pm
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On the issue of tiers like we had in SDNW2, I'm not generally in favor of bringing them back save in one situation: playstyle choice.

I was developing the concept for a geopoli game for another forum I was contemplating proposing. Players would pick to be Great Powers or Regional Powers; the former, as you'd imagine, would get a slight edge (an extra 25% boost in National Creation Points - from 24 to 30 in that ruleset - and an automatic +3 to Colonial Territory - the ruleset was tentatively for a 1910 game) but had to accept restrictions to their in-game behavior, conversely a Regional Power gets free reign for the most part (save for behaving utterly ridiculously like invading an ally for shits and giggles). The idea is to let the people who want to roleplay and world-build and engage in diplomacy be Great Powers, and thus be more secure from being dicked around by the people who want to be aggressive and militantly expansionist, but to ensure the GP players aren't so powerful that there's no chance for the RP players to do anything save go after each other.

Note that being 25% more powerful (well, more like 30% more powerful I guess, accounting for the territory bonus) is hardly close to the curve of SDNW1 and SDNW2, when each tier represented a +100% capability over the other (that is, doubling) until you got to Duchy and Principality, as they were curved upwards a little bit to make them slightly less a pushover (though in the end result they still were generally, especially to Imperiums).

Anyway, just an idea I'm throwing out.



”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

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 Post subject: Re: An SDNW Proposal PostPosted: 2010-04-20 09:01pm
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My preference, as Steve already knows, is for a fairly uniform tech system, but one that's fairly well grounded in science. Ie, if you're using an antimatter reactor to power your ship, your firepower and such is going to be limited to what an antimatter reactor could be expected to provide (ie, 9e16J/kg fuel, assuming 100% efficiency). I actually think that number-crunching shouldn't be too much of a problem if we can agree for example that all players use the same (or equivalent-output) power source and same basic weapon types (eg, lasers, particle beams, missiles are the main weapons, whilst black hole guns or Xeelee starbreakers (or indeed, solar sodomisers...) are a lot rarer).

To use Steve's example above, the Quantum Discombobulator might be a laser cannon. The Mark 1 is rated at 1MT per shot, and has a rate of fire of 120 RPM. It's typically mounted on destroyers in the Federal Navy, and is designed to engage other enemy sub-capital ships at up to 10 lightseconds, at which point beam diffraction and lightspeed lag makes it only really effective at burning off unshielded sensors and the like. Shroom only knows what the Solar Sodomiser is...

The other thing with a fairly uniform tech system is that of reverse engineering and so on. If my FTL drives are powered by lesbian orgies, his by antimatter reactors and hers by shovelling carebears into a furnace... dear god I don't want to be the technician assigned to take apart the ship we recently captured. I mean, how the hell does that antimatter reactor even work?! Carebear furnaces I can understand, but antimatter :wtf: ? Anyway, the point is that the more similar the tech bases, the easier interactions on a technical level are going to be IMHO.

What else... in terms of points vs tiers, I think I'd either stick to equal points for all (or base + D6 points etc), with possibly a few extra for a two-tier system. Say 30+D6 for most, and if you have an upper tier do say 33+2D3.


Now, as Steve's given me the ok on detailing the setting I was thinking of... here goes nothing.

The universe the Terran Alliance is set in basically offers the uniform tech system and such that I've mentioned above, as well as several other things that will hopefully be of interest to players. As a small, independent power in Wilderness Space, players have the option of not only getting involved in interacting between each other, but if desired could also get more involved in things like the major interstellar trade routes, piracy and anti-piracy actions, and so on. It's a big sandbox that should, I think, offer plenty of scope for whatever the Shroomanians or whoever want to get up to. Whether you're aliens native to the region, humans rejecting the safety of the Terran Alliance, the ruler of a pirate kingdom or something else entirely, you can be pretty sure that there's room for you in the vast reaches of Wilderness Space. Communists, Ayn Rand libertarians, hive minds and logic-driven AIs, you're all welcome.


Now that I've got your attention, lets' get down to some of the technical stuff. Spoilers used because I dislike big walls of text, and this'll be a big one :P .

[Reveal] Spoiler: A Very Short Timeline
Really, this is just so know when humans arrived on scene and what year it is today.

2500: The Earth & entire Sol system is united under the Terran Alliance government. Hyperdrive-fuelled expansion soon follows.
4430: The galaxy is wracked by the largest war in recorded history, as a civil war in the Union of Free Systems spreads, known as the Conglomerate War. Almost every major galactic power is involved.
4454: The Terran Alliance enters the Conglomerate War.
4456: The Conglomerate War is ended with the restoration of the UFS and other pre-war boundaries.
4500: The present.


[Reveal] Spoiler: FTL Travel
Thanks to the wonders of hyperspace, FTL travel is fast, easy, and safe. Or at least, as fast, easy and safe as your equipment allows. A modern warship from the Terran Alliance or Union of Free Systems can cross the galaxy in 10 days, or roughly 2 parsecs per second. Short of buying or stealing the technology from someone though, very few minor powers can hope to achieve such speeds.

Regardless of speeds however, hyperspace is a good way to travel. Ships enter hyperspace and zip around, then return back to normal space at the desired location, having either used scanners to detect where they are or by calculating where they've travelled based on their velocity etc in hyperspace. To remain in hyperspace, ships must have their hyperspace shields up at all times. This both protects them from weapons fire whilst in hyperspace and prevents them being forcibly dumped back into normal space along with an unhealthy (but not lethal) dose of radiation to everything on board. Hyperspace shields also protect ships from enemies who want to fire missiles through hyperspace so as to bypass their conventional defences.

Hyperdrives also take about a minute to cool down / charge up between uses - whilst you can rotate safely into hyperspace a fraction of a second after emerging from it, doing so will do Bad Things to your hyperdrives, so be sure to bring more than just duct tape along for repair work.

To prevent people doing this to planets, the universe has conveniently come up with certain laws that prevent you entering or leaving hyperspace within a gravitational field of 0.1G or greater. Attempts to do so will result in a painless, but very certain, death, and sod all collateral damage, conveniently preventing anyone from turning an FTL ship into a planet-buster. To make damn certain though, devices called "Hyperwall Generators" are relatively easy to build for anyone who knows how to use hyperspace well. Hyperwall generators create shockwaves in nearby hyperspace that force ships out of hyperspace and prevent them from entering (without exception). The spherical area affected might be as small as a planet / moon system or, in the case of the gigantic versions used to mark out interstellar borders, a parsec across. Whilst only the largest starships can hope to mount these inside their hulls, several major powers have been known to use this to trap enemy fleets or ground forces to fight unfavourable battles, and this is a tactic most admirals will be aware of.

If desired, players may also want to make use of giant hyperspace gates. These gigantic, stargate-like structures float in space and provide practically instantaneous travel between gates. They're of great use in interstellar trade and usually heavily protected for the very same reason. The important points, however, are that players can use hyperwall generators to set up choke points or traps, and the fast FTL travel allows for rapid travel & interactions between all the involved nations.


[Reveal] Spoiler: STL Travel
The most common means of STL travel is the good old reaction drive. Inertial dampeners / compensators are in widespread use thankfully, because if you're accelerating at 2000Gs without one your crew won't have time to regret not turning it on at all. Quite how they work depends on the precise design used - Terran Alliance ones compensate for the acceleration and can be turned off if you're not accelerating / decellerating, whilst others will turn you into red paste if you do so.

Another common type of STL drive is the gravitic drive. These act like gigantic tractor / pressor beams, pushing and pulling the ship off various big nearby celestial bodies like planets or stars in order to move it around. Often used near planets because, well, any rocket engine powerful enough to move a 100,000 ton starship at 2000Gs is also enough to slag a sizeable city. Sadly, the speed of gravity (ie lightspeed) means they are not good for rapid manoeuvres if you're more than a few lightseconds from something to use as reaction mass (ie, like a planet).

That said, if you can think of any other means of propulsion (photon drives, solar sails, etc etc), feel free to use them.


[Reveal] Spoiler: Materials Technology
Whilst you may be able to make extremely strong or heat-resistant alloys, don't expect to go mining for unobtainium ore deposits. On the other hand, there are certain forms of exotic matter that can be useful if you have the know-how to find or create the stuff. Culture Orbitals are certainly a possibility - perhaps your nation in its early days traded its original homeworld for an orbital or two in a deal with a mining company from one of the big powers. Carve up the planet, tow the pieces away, and build an orbital in its place - it's been done before now.

Of course, it should be noted that buying terraforming & similar services doesn't come cheap.

Warships meanwhile typically don't get bigger than a few kilometres in length, especially in Wilderness Space. The largest ships are typically civilian bulk freighters hauling raw materials and such around the galaxy.


[Reveal] Spoiler: Power Sources
Fission, fusion, anti-matter / matter annihilation, or even total conversion - they're all possible. The most advanced civilisations can tap hyperspace for energy, store it, and essentially run everything from LEDs to starships off gigantic pocket-dimension-batteries. Given Steve's original post about the setting though, I would advise against using that last option - stick to M/AM or something as the top end. In practical terms, this means gigaton-yield weapons are going to be pretty rare due to the power requirements, so think more Babylon 5 or Star Trek (upper limits) in terms of firepower. 1kg of matter can yield up to 21.5 MT of energy.


[Reveal] Spoiler: Weapons & Defences
Weapons & defences fall into four main categories in the setting: pulse beams, lasers, mass drivers, and exotic stuff. Pulse beams are like very long-ranged glowing laser beams (technically, they suffer from diffraction less than lasers do), and stopped only by pulse shields (well, and armour and stuff :P ). Lasers are rarely used because almost everyone has access to absorption fields that are very effective at converting incoming radiation, radar pulses or lasers (of whatever wavelength) into useable (or at least storable) energy, to the point where the defence far outweighs the offence in any remotely even match-up, but does make battles look much prettier as everyone shoots pulse beams at each other :P . As might be expected, they're also very useful in making machines like reactors very efficient. Mass drivers includes basically anything with a rest mass greater than zero - particle beams, neutrinos (you're firing what now :wtf: ?), missiles, railguns, asteroids, and so on - and are stopped by yet another set of shields (often called meteorite shields, after their original use). Exotic weapons & defences might be using gravitational fields to bend pulse beams around your ship, or using a strangelet bomb to try and destroy something.

The ratio of offensive to defensive capabilities depends entirely on how you want to design your ships. For example, the Alliance Navy has a 2:1 defence:offence ratio, makes very heavy use of pulse beams, has equally powerful pulse and meteorite shields, and very powerful EM absorption fields. The Union of Free Systems uses many more missiles than the Terran Alliance, and has a more equal ratio between defence & offence. Nations that use reactors can choose to be more flexible than these, eg by letting ships use all their reactor output for offence.

There are also the usual tractor / pressor beams and so on that make capturing rebel senators and so on that bit easier.

Practically all of these technologies scale down to the infantry level (and below) as well. If you want your main battle tank to have shields, a pulse cannon and the ability to use its forcefields and antigrav tech to fly, you can. Just, you know, be prepared for the bill at the end...


[Reveal] Spoiler: Computers, Comms & Sensors
Quantum computers & AIs are old hat, so if you need an arbitrarily fast computer that can simulate Culture Minds in its spare time, you can probably build (or at least buy) one. Computing power is cheap & plentiful in the setting, as are AIs - often divided into URAIs or UAIs (Unrestricted AIs) and RAIs (Restricted AIs) depending basically on whether they have free will or not. A popular Terran Alliance RAI operating system is called Cassandra, and often warships either use it or configure their systems to look or act like it. Most good computers come with holographic projectors and subspace scanners as standard.

Assuming your subspace comms system has sufficient power and isn't being jammed, there's no reason you have a conversation with someone on the other side of the galaxy without any lag issues. Communications between nations shouldn't be an issue.

Sensors or scanners on the other hand can be extremely precise. Remember that episode in Star Trek about the long-range Cardassian subspace telescope or whatever it was? You can do that here, too. Of course, the other guy will likely detect it and may try to shield his planet or something, but powerful scanners and a lack of stealth in space are the norm. Of course, if you can successfully mask your fleet from enemy subspace scanners, you can achieve one hell of a surprise attack. It's just sodding difficult to pull off.

It should be noted that subspace scanners can pick up things in both hyperspace and normal space, including gravity wells, photons and so on, which is why hiding from them is so hard. Everything leaves an "echo" in subspace that your sensors can detect, without affecting the object itself (yay for no observer effect).


[Reveal] Spoiler: Medical Technology
Can be very good. In the event of a disaster (natural or artificial) there are various equivalents to the Red Cross and so on willing to help out. On a more personal level, you might be little better of than you are today or living as healthily as a Culture citizen.


Urgh, rules, rules and more rules. Oh well, time to think positive. Bearing in mind now that I've no clue how Steve wants to let us build nations, let's see what I can cook up on the fly...

The Celestial Republic wrote:
Systems: New Sol (C), Unity, Zodiak, Fakenham

System: New Sol: G4 star. One inner rocky (Hades), two terraformed worlds (Athena, Hera), three gas giants with moons (Zeus, Apollo, Ares). Kuiper belt & Oort cloud mining.
---Athena: Population 12 billion, capital world. Heavy shipbuilding industry in orbit. Planetary shield rated at 50GT / sec.
---Hera: Population 5 billion. Planetary shield rated at 20GT / sec, being upgraded to 35 GT / sec by year end.

System: Unity: G5 star. Two inner rockies (Unity I, Unity II, one orbital (Harmony), two gas giants with moons (Unity IV & V), two outer iceballs (Unity VI & VII).
---Harmony: Population 8 billion, constructed by Starship Industries (Terran Alliance) in exchange for original planet. Orbital shield rated at 200GT / sec.

System: Zodiak: G2 star. Two inner rockies (Aries, Taurus), one terraformed world (Gemini), six gas giants with moons (Cancer, Leo, Virgo, Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius), three outer iceballs (Capricorn, Aquarius, Pisces)
---Gemini: Population 3 billion. Large agricultural & farming industry. No planetary shield.

System: Fakenham: G2 star. One damaged terraformed world (Fakenham), large asteroid belts in rest of system.
---Fakenham: Population 4 billion. Large asteroid mining industry in orbit for New Sol shipyards. No planetary shield.

Government: Liberal democracy operating a "first past the post" system of elections every 10 years.
Economy: Founded on extensive trade with neighbouring nations. Notable in the area for its entertainment industry and shipbuilding capabilities. Primary imports are raw materials and produce to be re-sold elsewhere.
Species: 84% human, 5% choroth, 2% dren, remaining 9% is various.
Religions: None official. Largest is Anglican Interstellar Church (14%).
Language: Officially Celestial Republic English, a dialect of standard English. Choroth 2 and 4 also in use.
Currency: Republic dollars. 1 dollar = 100 cents. 1 million dollars = 1 millo.
Taxation: Progressive income tax from 10-30%. 10% corporation tax. No other taxes.

Technology: Above-average forcefields, holograms, shipbuilding and ship drives, primarily due to commercial interests.

Foreign Policy: Centred around peaceful trade. Will view with suspicion any naval buildups, but will prefer to remain neutral than get involved in regional conflicts. Very hostile to piracy and protectionist measures.

Planetside Military (Republic Army): 340 million volunteers, mostly a mix of garrison troops, marines, and artillery. Considered by many to be under-funded, under-strength and under-equipped.
Spaceside Military (Republic Navy): 1 Storm class dreadnought (flagship, Nemesis)32 Thunderbolt class battleships, 142 Perses class cruisers, 212 Helios class cruisers, 3020 Eos class destroyers, 4420 Selene class frigates. 3,400 armed merchant ships in the Volunteer Fleet.

Brief History: The Celestial Republic is a relatively small nation originally established in 2544 by human colonists escaping what they considered to be a jingoistic Terran Alliance. Despite a tough start on Athena (New Sol II), they managed to preserve most of the technology they left the Alliance with, and soon built up a respectable business as traders in the region, despite the unusual lack of easily colonised worlds. However, rising tensions within the republic over the status of alien rights resulted in a brief civil war between 3233 and 3236. Following the civil war, it was decided to colonise the Unity system as both a focus for people's energies and a concrete gesture of how things would continue from then on. The high-profile deal with mega-corporation Starship Industries to destroy Unity III and replace it with an orbital ring was the highlight of the project, which was finally completed in 3255.
Following this expansion the republic experienced several centuries of relative peace before rising levels of piracy pointed to a pirate kingdom in a nearby star system. The Republic Navy was reinforced with two new cruiser squadrons, and an expeditionary force was sent out. The result was an easy victory for the Republic Navy, and the twelve-planet system was added to the Republic in 3860 as the Zodiak system in a return to the naming scheme of New Sol's worlds.
The most recent expansion came in 4222, when hostilities broke out between the republic and the Kingdom of Fakenham over the latter's attempted alliance with several nearby nations hostile to the republic and interference with the republic's trade. A rapid attack by the Republic Navy quickly overwhelmed the kingdom's defences and convinced its allies not to intervene. The heavy bombardment of Fakenham required to breach its planetary shields killed 70% of the populace, and following its annexation it was forbidden from having any significant orbital shipyards or planetary shielding, to prevent any viable future uprisings.



Sample Ship Design: Thunderbolt class battleship:
Approx. Dimensions: 1204m x 204m x 99m
Crew: 1,443
Marines: 3 companies, approx. 160 men each

Power Supply: Type 414-B Annihilation Reactor (M/AM), rated 320MT / sec.
Hyperdrive: 1 parsec / 5 mins.
STL Drive: 1666G's max accel.
Fuel Supply: 30 days max reactor output.

Pulse Shields: Up to 320 MT / sec. Standard is 100 MT / sec.
Meteorite Shields: Up to 320 MT / sec. Standard is 60 MT / sec.
EM Absorption Fields: Up to 2 GT / sec. Max capacity: 150 GT + all active weapons & defences.

Broadside Weapons: 8 pulse cannon turrets per broadside, each rated 10 MT / sec max.
Dorsal Weapons: 12 missile tubes, each can launch 1 C-442 missile per 10 seconds. 10 missiles per tube.
Undercarriage Weapons: 4 pulse cannon turrets, rated 10 MT / sec max. Hangar for marine dropships & shuttles.
Prow Weapons: 1 spinal-mount pulse cannon, rated 320 MT / sec max.
Stern Weapons: 2 pulse cannon turrets, each rated 10 MT / sec max.
Point Defence: 64 rapid-fire pulse beam ball turrets, each rated 1kT / sec max.

Notes: Big pulse beam broadsides are the order of the day here. The Thunderbolt was designed to be a very flexible design, and can if necessary divert almost all its reactor output into either its large spinal mount pulse beam so as to act as heavy artillery, or into its shields for when unusually strong defences are called for. As befits a battleship, also has a small complement of kinetic-kill C-442 missiles for long-range engagements and planetary siege warfare, and a small complement of Republic Navy Marines for boarding actions, internal security and raids and the like on hostile planets or orbitals. Unusually for such an otherwise low-tech starship, the Thunderbolt has very modern and very powerful point defence systems: kiloton-yield weaponry is excessive for most missiles in the region, but is considered the standard defensive armament against more modern weapons, and has been mounted on all ships in the Republic Navy due to the rise in black market weapons from the Conglomerate War. Rumours that its targeting systems may have been salvaged from vessels involved in that war have been repeatedly denied by the Navy Office, but the Thunderbolt continues to exhibit unusually good target tracking systems.


And there's your peaceful little trading partner and its sample ship to give you a feel for how this could work. The number-crunching shouldn't really be too difficult (or even vital) unless you want Honor Harrington missile spam, for which we have the main site anyway to do the hard work for you anyway :) . Granted I know this stuff like the back of my hand, but I still think I'd prefer this to figuring out how good an M1A2 Abrams would be against a Challenger II in a modern-day SDN World scenario :P .



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 Post subject: Re: An SDNW Proposal PostPosted: 2010-04-20 11:04pm
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Steve wrote:
I was contemplating a system where we all get a base amount of points, additional points by dice roll to give some capability variety, and a base number of sectors of varying development level. You could, feasibly, invest your points in extra sectors and lots of late-terraformed worlds to go with sparsely-populated Earth-like planets (perhaps sacrifice GDP for size).


I actually wanted to hit on this because it kinda goes in to what might start getting things too dense: STGODs work best when the ruleset is very loose and the mods mostly are there to strike down the absurd...and that includes creation rules. What rules we do have about creating your empire, manning your armed forces, and expanding outward should be controlled by the demands of the story and should be an absolute minimum of absolutes and a maximum of judgment calls. What I mean is this as a proposal:


Quote:
Rules:
Overall Feel: Overall capability should be in the B5-Trek continuum, don't go overboard
Planets: No more than "X" Earth-type worlds, no more than twice that in colonized planets.
Tech: Weapons get declared in units, speed gets declared in multiples of C or G depending (FTL/STL) the mechanism doesn't matter call it whatever you want
FTL: Warp/Jump nodes for insta-travel (a la Wing Commander/Freespace) but you can still go the slow way with your onboard drives (see above RE: Speed)
Armed forces: No more than "X" cap ships to start no more than "X" % of your people in the Army
Other: Don't be a douche


The last rule is basically the "don't powergame" rule. Things like tech research, industrial building, exploration and founding new colonies, etc should ALL fall under the don't be a douche rule. What that also means is don't be a douche complaining about what others are doing, make a complaint and if it gets shot down then move on and figure out a way to counter things you don't like.

So that would be my proposal.



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 Post subject: Re: An SDNW Proposal PostPosted: 2010-04-20 11:13pm
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Still, having an understanding of a player's military forces at game start and how much they should feasibly build at any time for expansion or unit replacement is useful.

At the very least we should have rules akin to SDNW2's start rules, and I honestly don't see the issue with country generation point allocations for one to customize how one's country looks in a way where everyone knows what you've done and which ensures some scale between players is maintained.

As it is we're dropping using industrial points or cash for any kind of building projects, we're dropping population figures, precise limits on starting military proportions, specific infrastructure ratings.... would it hurt to have a system where people spend points to A) have so many sectors above base size, B) to improve the sectors they have from baseline quality permitted, and C) to use the resulting "GDP" figure to determine starting military forces? From that point on, everything is open.

Give me a bit and I can draw up an example.



”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

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 Post subject: Re: An SDNW Proposal PostPosted: 2010-04-21 12:08am
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Okay, example time.

A country is automatically given 12 sectors, arranged as 2 Core Sectors, 4 Midrange Sectors, and 6 Frontier Sectors.


A Core Sector consists of one fully populated naturally Earth-like planet and four fully-to-heavily populated Earth-like Terraformed Planets. Population of >50 Billion. GDP Value: $10,000.

A Midrange Sector consists of one fairly populated Earth-like planet, two Earth-like Terraformed Planets, and two Near Earth-like Terraformed Planets which will be Earth-like in 20 game years. Population of <25 Billion. GDP Value: $5,000

A Frontier Sector has one sparsely-populated Earth-like planet and four planets being subjected to Terraforming Process. Population of 5 Billion. GDP Value: $1,000

This means a baseline nation has roughly 230 Billion people - let's say 250 to have a rounder number - with a GDP figure of $46,000 (note that space dollars as expressed might very well be worth a trillion or even a quadrillion USD 2010. ;-))

Now let's presume everyone gets 15+1d6 basic points for improving their country. (NCPs is what we'll call them.)

Our example country rolls a 3, so 18 points.

A player can do two actions with his or her points: add a frontier sector or upgrade an existing base sector. Adding a frontier sector is, say, one point, improving a frontier sector to midrange is 4 points, improving a midrange to a core sector is 5.

So base starting layout is:
2 Core
4 Midrange
6 Frontier.

That can become
4 Core = 10 NCP (2 base + 2 Midrange upgraded @ 5 NCP/sector)
4 Midrange = 8 NCP (4 Base - 2 Upgraded to Core + 2 Frontier Upgraded @ 4 NCP/sector)
4 Frontier = 0 NCP (6 Base - 2 Upgraded to Midrange)

As a result, our Star Kingdom of Examplestan now has a population of >320 Billion and a GDP figure of $64,000.

That $64,000 then lets you determine the size of your military at game start and voila, all you have to do is say "With $64,000 I buy so many star dreadnoughts, so many cruisers, so many battle armor divisions" and boom, you're done. Your country is ready to be put on the map and you're ready to play.

Does anyone regard this as too complex?



”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

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 Post subject: Re: An SDNW Proposal PostPosted: 2010-04-21 12:12am
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Rather than shoehorning us into "star dreadnoughts" or "cruisers" or "battle armour divisions" why not just determine military stuff based on what was spent on it?



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 Post subject: Re: An SDNW Proposal PostPosted: 2010-04-21 12:15am
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Ryan Thunder wrote:
Rather than shoehorning us into "star dreadnoughts" or "cruisers" or "battle armour divisions" why not just determine military stuff based on what was spent on it?


Well, what else would you build?



”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

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 Post subject: Re: An SDNW Proposal PostPosted: 2010-04-21 12:16am
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I am going to pull out the most interesting/useful bits from Teleros' post.
Teleros wrote:
The other thing with a fairly uniform tech system is that of reverse engineering and so on. If my FTL drives are powered by lesbian orgies, his by antimatter reactors and hers by shovelling carebears into a furnace... dear god I don't want to be the technician assigned to take apart the ship we recently captured. I mean, how the hell does that antimatter reactor even work?! Carebear furnaces I can understand, but antimatter :wtf: ? Anyway, the point is that the more similar the tech bases, the easier interactions on a technical level are going to be IMHO.

Reverse engineering bothers me when used this way. [Tech] should be reproducible regardless of powersources so long as the powersource provides the right amount of energy. However I cannot think of a reason to use captured vessels even if the tech is related. I can see using captured vessels for the sake of the game rather than the [TECH]. The game should be more important. In other words if you make the judgment call to use captured vessels for the hell of it there should be no reason not to, unless the mods think you are abusing it.

The more we make value judgments the less rules and determinism are required. Have fun!

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Thanks to the wonders of hyperspace, FTL travel is fast, easy, and safe. Or at least, as fast, easy and safe as your equipment allows. A modern warship from the Terran Alliance or Union of Free Systems can cross the galaxy in 10 days, or roughly 2 parsecs per second. Short of buying or stealing the technology from someone though, very few minor powers can hope to achieve such speeds.
I do not care about the actual factual ftl speeds, just the time it takes to get there. A good idea for how long it takes to get between places is that on the fastest ship it should take somewhat longer to travel 1/3 the distance from farthest society to farthest society than it would for a USN nuclear carrier to cross the pacific. At that speed the distance is not insignificant and the travel time is not instantaneous either. It is simply noticeable. This is with experience in the star wars stgod that I speak. Do not make travel times trivial or too much of an obstacle.

Quote:
The most common means of STL travel is the good old reaction drive. Inertial dampeners / compensators are in widespread use thankfully, because if you're accelerating at 2000Gs without one your crew won't have time to regret not turning it on at all. Quite how they work depends on the precise design used - Terran Alliance ones compensate for the acceleration and can be turned off if you're not accelerating / decellerating, whilst others will turn you into red paste if you do so.
Slower than light is going to be a tough thing to settle, but I am against travel that is faster than double digit g's. I think it makes it more interesting. Just my opinion.

Quote:
The ratio of offensive to defensive capabilities depends entirely on how you want to design your ships. For example, the Alliance Navy has a 2:1 defence:offence ratio, makes very heavy use of pulse beams

This is probably the single most useful idea I see. A ratio of offense to defense that is compared to the ships power (as in either reactor output or even more generally the role to size of the ship.



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 Post subject: Re: An SDNW Proposal PostPosted: 2010-04-21 12:25am
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A counter-proposal's been given to me of just giving people points to buy sector types to add to one automatic core sector to represent their capital world/homeworld.



”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

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 Post subject: Re: An SDNW Proposal PostPosted: 2010-04-21 12:52am
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Wow, pretty liberally borrowing there Steve. :P

I don't have a problem with it, but honestly if you've got players who're interested in a game like this why not just point them to Ad Astra on the Frontier? We've got an established player base and a solid record of lasting more than an actual RL year of game time.


Just saying. ;)



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 Post subject: Re: An SDNW Proposal PostPosted: 2010-04-21 01:01am
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Because as you may notice, Slackmeister, a lot of the people here want complete free-form, such that even my sector suggestion (which, yes, does resemble AA to the extent of A) a map based on sectors of varying type and B) each sector having a GDP value that determines starting military) may be considered to be too heavy on the rules. :P

Edit: I do, however, highly encourage those willing to indulge in race-creating to check out AA. It's not that bad - SDNW3 was more rules heavy - and the more the merrier.



”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

Moderator of SDN, Former Spacebattles Super-Mod, Veteran Chatnik

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 Post subject: Re: An SDNW Proposal PostPosted: 2010-04-21 01:10am
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Hell, I'm getting tetchy just from having a clearly defined setting. Actual rules and history? I'd kill a man.



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 Post subject: Re: An SDNW Proposal PostPosted: 2010-04-21 01:14am
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Oh come on, rules aren't that bad. SDNW3 is more rule-heavy than AA6. :P

*ducks thrown object from Siege* :mrgreen:



”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

Moderator of SDN, Former Spacebattles Super-Mod, Veteran Chatnik

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 Post subject: Re: An SDNW Proposal PostPosted: 2010-04-21 01:28am
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I’m interested, but only if people have empires big enough that someone destroying everything in a solar system is a mere tactical defeat. Giving people only a handful of planets is just trouble, since now employing all the absurdly massive firepower any remotely realistic space navy can deploy from a single ship, let alone a fleet that just gained space superiority in the system is a very big deal and won’t be easily accepted by players.

And the hell with points for building stuff. Moderators can require stuff to be toned down, everyone gives examples of there ships and main tech before the game starts, leave it at that. Points make it too difficult to have asymmetric force matches which are actually interesting. If I want to have 10,000 space landing ships made of reinforced concrete, each with 10,000 space termites onboard whom fire giant pump action shotguns out of gun ports for point defense, I don’t want to figure out exactly how much this costs compared to a single super battleship that can destroy them with single shots



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 Post subject: Re: An SDNW Proposal PostPosted: 2010-04-21 01:53am
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Space Germans for Reference.



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 Post subject: Re: An SDNW Proposal PostPosted: 2010-04-21 02:06am
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I haven't decided yet, but I might create a Warhammer 40K setting based on technology rules given, just called different names.

Are we allowing any form of psyker powers?



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 Post subject: Re: An SDNW Proposal PostPosted: 2010-04-21 02:18am
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Maybe.

ANd this game is really months away from starting, this is the proposal and idea-swapping phase.



”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

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 Post subject: Re: An SDNW Proposal PostPosted: 2010-04-21 02:22am
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Well, at the base minimum, we ought to set up a technology framework and work things out from there with whatever fluff. I think we should allow some flexibility, but no wankery.



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 Post subject: Re: An SDNW Proposal PostPosted: 2010-04-21 05:01am
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FTL travel should just take place at the speed of plot, with the only constraints being that one doesn't just pop up in orbit around core worlds without anybody noticing the approaching conquest fleet of doom. As for tech, I feel tech descriptions should be fluff entirely: it shouldn't matter whether my ships use a hyper engine, wormhole generator or teardrive as its FTL drive; or a fusion plant, hypermatter reactor or symmetry furnace as its primary means of energy generation -- at some point it should all level out. Maybe one player chooses quantity over quality and will throw millions of thin-skinned rustbuckets of warships at the other, whilst another builds only a handful of ridiculously overpowered system control battleships... As long as in the end, when you add up all those rustbuckets, they equal the battleships. Beyond that, it just shouldn't matter what engines, weapons or reactors you choose to employ, so by all means go crazy.



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 Post subject: Re: An SDNW Proposal PostPosted: 2010-04-21 05:23am
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Agent Sorchus wrote:
I am going to pull out the most interesting/useful bits from Teleros' post.
Teleros wrote:
The other thing with a fairly uniform tech system is that of reverse engineering and so on. If my FTL drives are powered by lesbian orgies, his by antimatter reactors and hers by shovelling carebears into a furnace... dear god I don't want to be the technician assigned to take apart the ship we recently captured. I mean, how the hell does that antimatter reactor even work?! Carebear furnaces I can understand, but antimatter :wtf: ? Anyway, the point is that the more similar the tech bases, the easier interactions on a technical level are going to be IMHO.

Reverse engineering bothers me when used this way. [Tech] should be reproducible regardless of powersources so long as the powersource provides the right amount of energy. However I cannot think of a reason to use captured vessels even if the tech is related. I can see using captured vessels for the sake of the game rather than the [TECH]. The game should be more important. In other words if you make the judgment call to use captured vessels for the hell of it there should be no reason not to, unless the mods think you are abusing it.

Perhaps, but think of the technical possibilities your engineers will be dreaming of when they discover that carebear furnace. I mean, do pink carebears generate more power than red ones? Can we exceed our existing power sources by swapping to a carebear model? Etc etc etc.

I'll deal with the rest from the POV of going forwards with my setting for the sake of argument.
Agent Sorchus wrote:
I am going to pull out the most interesting/useful bits from Teleros' post.
Quote:
Thanks to the wonders of hyperspace, FTL travel is fast, easy, and safe. Or at least, as fast, easy and safe as your equipment allows. A modern warship from the Terran Alliance or Union of Free Systems can cross the galaxy in 10 days, or roughly 2 parsecs per second. Short of buying or stealing the technology from someone though, very few minor powers can hope to achieve such speeds.
I do not care about the actual factual ftl speeds, just the time it takes to get there. A good idea for how long it takes to get between places is that on the fastest ship it should take somewhat longer to travel 1/3 the distance from farthest society to farthest society than it would for a USN nuclear carrier to cross the pacific. At that speed the distance is not insignificant and the travel time is not instantaneous either. It is simply noticeable. This is with experience in the star wars stgod that I speak. Do not make travel times trivial or too much of an obstacle.

That largely depends on the distances between the various powers and exactly how fast we want FTL to be. If to use my Celestial Republic example we're 12-24 parsecs away from each other, you're talking about an hour or two at 1 parsec / 5 minutes. Too long? Too short? That's what this thread is for.

Agent Sorchus wrote:
I am going to pull out the most interesting/useful bits from Teleros' post.
Quote:
The most common means of STL travel is the good old reaction drive. Inertial dampeners / compensators are in widespread use thankfully, because if you're accelerating at 2000Gs without one your crew won't have time to regret not turning it on at all. Quite how they work depends on the precise design used - Terran Alliance ones compensate for the acceleration and can be turned off if you're not accelerating / decellerating, whilst others will turn you into red paste if you do so.
Slower than light is going to be a tough thing to settle, but I am against travel that is faster than double digit g's. I think it makes it more interesting. Just my opinion.

Could do I suppose, given (barring hyperwall generators) you can jump out of hyperspace pretty close to a planet.

Agent Sorchus wrote:
I am going to pull out the most interesting/useful bits from Teleros' post.
Quote:
The ratio of offensive to defensive capabilities depends entirely on how you want to design your ships. For example, the Alliance Navy has a 2:1 defence:offence ratio, makes very heavy use of pulse beams

This is probably the single most useful idea I see. A ratio of offense to defense that is compared to the ships power (as in either reactor output or even more generally the role to size of the ship.

Anyone else find this idea useful?

Sea Skimmer wrote:
I’m interested, but only if people have empires big enough that someone destroying everything in a solar system is a mere tactical defeat. Giving people only a handful of planets is just trouble, since now employing all the absurdly massive firepower any remotely realistic space navy can deploy from a single ship, let alone a fleet that just gained space superiority in the system is a very big deal and won’t be easily accepted by players.

That's what planetary shields are for ;) . You can win the fleet battle but be unable to take down those shields before the other guy's reinforcements turn up (that of course depends on FTL speeds and such).

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Are we allowing any form of psyker powers?

A decent computer with holograms & forcefield generators could almost certainly simulate a lot of 40K psychic abilities, but honest-to-god psychics are really limited to just telepathic communication and attacks.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Well, at the base minimum, we ought to set up a technology framework and work things out from there with whatever fluff. I think we should allow some flexibility, but no wankery.

That's what I hope my big post above can do. Numbers for firepower / speeds / whatever may want tweaking for the purposes of the game of course.



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 Post subject: Re: An SDNW Proposal PostPosted: 2010-04-21 05:43am
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I don't like the idea of planetary shields at all. They strike me as too much of a 'lol invincible!' gimmick. This might be the now-dead Star Wars game rubbing off on me (where it took a fleet of truly absurd dimensions to batter down a shield), but it seems to me they would just be really annoying -- if I've battered my way through your fleet and your orbital defences, as well as secured space supremacy for my dropships, from a gameplay perspective it would be a cop-out if you could just sit behind some kind of supershield that renders my efforts effectively useless.



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 Post subject: Re: An SDNW Proposal PostPosted: 2010-04-21 05:49am
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Figure out numbers that make planetary shields useful but not godly then. I put in big numbers for my example above because it's just a few worlds in a setting with very few worlds, so you don't want to lose planets easily.



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 Post subject: Re: An SDNW Proposal PostPosted: 2010-04-21 06:23am
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Steve wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote:
Rather than shoehorning us into "star dreadnoughts" or "cruisers" or "battle armour divisions" why not just determine military stuff based on what was spent on it?


Well, what else would you build?

Twenty thousand tonne interceptors with huge engines, guns, and/or missiles, drone-controlled interceptor missiles, interstellar carrier craft for transporting my sublight craft, etc. That whole system I discussed with you over MSN. :P

Tanks, guns and bombs. Whatever I wanted to, really.



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