An SDNW Proposal

[Steve]

Due to some requests by those I've approached, I figured I'd broach this idea publicly to gauge response and to determine viability of the proposal (and the extent of "game fatigue").

So far SDNW has had three incarnations. One barely lasted a quarter, but that was because the players made the mistake of giving Shep nuclear weapons. The second lasted an entire year (surviving yet another Shep attempt to kill everyone through common refusal to accept his final story posts), though it went through a number of low-activity phases punctuated by major upswings in posting as the result of some situation or another. Eventually it suffered from the polarization of the world between MESS and CATO - neither side could do much without risking nuclear war - and people were ready to try something new.

SDNW3 was conceived as an attempt to address remaining inequities and problems with the SDNW system. The old power tiers were done away with - everyone would start on equal footing. A point distribution ruleset for country generation was proposed by Czechmate and myself and accepted by the players. New rules regulating unit construction cost and time were instituted, as well as rules for improving one's country, research, etc.

Unfortunately, SDNW3 didn't live up to its expectations in some ways. Though it remained active for months, and still has proponents keeping it going, it has bled away players month by month, lost due to disinterest, lack of time, or some combination thereof. The historical setting concept, conceived to deal once and for all with the Damocles Sword of nukes, has proven to be a limitation on other aspects as well. Problems with the ruleset caused confusion over how to perform specific actions, and fixes to it in turn required compensation to players to make up for wasted efforts.

So now inevitably the question is turning to SDNW4. To ponder the issue, I re-read SDNW2 as well. SDNW3 was afflicted by a perfect storm of player inactivity, clunky ruleset, and setting limitations. SDNW2, OTOH, kept an active core of players until near the very end, only becoming terribly inactive after a whole year (one could ponder if this was the result of exhaustion from the rather intense debating and arguing between MESS and CATO players from that August over Stas' "Shep is alive!" revelation).

How?

For one thing, I think the historical time period hurt us. Players who were active in SDNW2 found their styles didn't work as well in SDNW3. Losing PeZook and Shroom didn't help matters, as they both had a tendency to help drive interactions. Some still kept things going (Thanas in particular has been very prolific and productive, writing with him is a pleasure) but it's clear that not only has the limitations of travel in the time period had effects (witness my character's European tour being a massive, politically sensitive affair because he had to be away from home for months, and only got to visit five capitals for his trouble - a modern day setting, or even 1970s-1980s one, would've permitted him to visit every European Capital) but that the sense of our world being more "historic" has limited the creativity that allowed more... peculiar societies to arise in SDNW2 (yes, that includes the insane glory that was SHROOMANIA).

Then we get to the rulesets. SDNW2 had rules for drawing up starting forces and that was it. SDNW3 introduced a stronger ruleset, more widely quantifying things, and it also suffered from some clunkiness due to various mechanics (Tech research, improvement of industry, economy, and infrastructure) not being determined for some time. Some of us have been punctual about maintaining OrBats and construction queues, but I think it was clearly a turnoff for others. Such things are key for hardcore geopoli sims but, for a game like SDNW that is more round-robin fiction, I now ponder if we went too far toward the game mechanic side at the expense of keeping things easy to do and permitting freedom.

Of course, if one does away with a quantified mechanics ruleset, it puts more pressure on the mods. Sure, you can draw up "rule of thumb" general limitations everyone knows beforehand (yearly military expansion cannot exceed 10% of your starting military as a general idea, for instance), but everything is up to mod judgement on whether someone is being a munchkin or is justified. That can cause problems if there are disagreements as to whether a mod's ruling, or lack of one, is appropriate and/or fair.


Ah, but now I digress. You're not reading this to hear my lamentations on SDNW3's difficulties and musings of how to fix it. You're curious as to what SDNW4 would entail under my proposal. Well, gentlemen (And, potentially, ladies), allow me to explain.

SDNW2 worked in part because we felt more freedom to craft societies as we wanted them. SDNW3 caused Rogue to have the US of A instead of Shinra, Beo to be "Manchuria" instead of Tian Xia, and of course completely eliminated the prospect of Shroomania. During this consideration I came to believe any game that used Earth as a basis would inevitably see people try to follow history in some way instead of doing as they pleased; a fake Earth like the first two games, OTOH, leaves the issue of placing around and can also see things like SDNW2 being too small a world or having too much ocean at game start (our attempt to redraw the map for more islands and even subcontinents kinda fizzled).

As for setting... modern day has been done twice. Near-modern has the same issues of arcane miltech systems, nuclear weapons, and while we don't have to worry about running out of established or projected new technologies as quickly as modern day, it's still close enough to today that we're just repeating what's been done twice. Nevertheless I was going to propose a modern day game, perhaps 2000-2010 in start date, when I had an idea.

Why fight the inevitable speculative tech issue when you can embrace it?

If my proposal becomes accepted.... welcome to SDN Worlds, gentlemen (and ladies).

My proposal is as follows. We adopt an interstellar setting. We each get an interstellar nation-state of some sort, with 13-15 "sectors" apiece, each sector has one natural Earth-like planet, and depending on if the sector is a core sector, mid-range, or colonial sector, it has near-Earth like worlds that have either completed terraforming, are in the later stages of it, or have just begun it (Effecting their population capacity and reliance on technology for survival). To deal with the inevitable issue of certain players having a penchant toward a "Nuke 'em until they glow and shoot 'em in the dark", Earth-like worlds are relatively rare (hence the one per sector rule) and if you wreck one it takes centuries to repair it, so mass nukey-nukey on planets is something of a universal no-no.

To avoid techwank issues, tech capabilities are abstracted and made generally universal in function, and certain types may be disallowed (no Kearny-Fuchida point-to-point instantaneous jump drives, hyperspace and warp being the norms, etc.) to avoid issues of innate function difference. The mods are employed to keep everything fair, but to avoid the issue of constant OrBat and construction queue updates there are no IBPs, no "spend such and such to get such and such" rules. Players determine their military expansion/replacement rate with moderatorial oversight - if we say you're overdoing it, be prepared to suffer negative economic repercussions if you don't cut back. New tech is vetoed or approved by the mods and, if approved, abstract benefits are applied.

The goal is to make a setting that permits people to craft societies completely from the ground up, to tell fun stories easily, and without the issues that afflicted the prior games. Nations like Shroomania and Canissia can make their triumphant return without effecting suspension of disbelief or anything. The return to a very free-form ruleset is to eliminate the issues of calculating IBPs and ship tonnages and such that delayed or even disinterested people in SDNW3, while the existence of mods ensures there won't be any "ass-pulling" as sometimes plagued SDNW2 (I'm reminded of the Costa de la los Muertas air battle on that issue). A regularly updated national OrBat can keep everyone's expansion/replacement rate "clear" and open for review even without a ruleset - letting players determine expansion rate without building mechanics eliminates a lot of math even if it does give the mods more work - that can be helped by adding a pair of "alternate" mods to ensure we have constant mod coverage (if a mod is inactive due to IRL issues or has a conflict of interest, an alt steps into place). So long as players understand that mod rulings can be appealed once, to the other mods, and that a mod vote is final, things should be fine.

I would prefer, of course, if players react to this mechanic-less system with appropriate behavior. Don't go overboard on building your spaceships of whupass, try to RP things realistically, etc. But experience has shown you lot can be an aggressive, even bloodthirsty band of little bastards (:p), so we have to be prepared for that.

Note this is only a proposal. There are no rules at all as of yet, merely suggestions - as it is I'd probably maintain a form of country generation by points rules, with an X + 1dX system (that is, a base point allocation plus the result of a dice roll) to give some variety in exact power without returning to the steep capability curves that plagued SDNW1 and SDNW2 (whether to also adopt the Great Power/Regional Power tier dichtomy revolving around playstyle I intended to propose for a different game on another board is also in the air). Nor should this be construed as a "let's start a new game now!" thread; I am posting it to gauge two things: interest in the setting proposal and the extent of "gamer fatigue" I've detected in the SDNW players this past month or so. So far I know of one SDNWer who is ready for a new game, I want to see the extent of everyone's willingness after having circulated this concept via MSN and AIM to a few people over the past three weeks.

If in the next week or two I see sufficient interest in the proposal or a new game at all, we'll continue from there with proposals for map format, more exact rules, permissibility of aliens, etc.

[loomer]

I would gladly be involved in this as a bit part once again, since I actually really enjoyed SDNW3. Maybe a significant cluster further off with only a couple of outposts near 'mainspace' - maybe a couple on various 'sides' isolated from each other to keep me from having only one relatively static zone of interest.

I'd also be very willing to contribute ideas from my own bizarre notions of sci-fi goodness if there's anything that needs fleshing out.

[Siege]

Well, this shouldn't come as a big surprise to anyone considering I've been its staunchest advocate all along, but the return of the free-form system and the elimination of the ultimately unwieldy ruleset is a dream come true. I also think moving the setting into space will allow a much greater degree of creative freedom in crafting interesting (and/or bizarre) societies and militaries. This has a great deal of potential, and the lack of rules forced upon potential players I think will encourage people to stay in the game rather than give up halfway through.

Also for the record, I know I've been haranguing you (and others) over perceived imperfections in the rule system, mod system, and pretty much every other system involved in the SDN World settings over the past few months, but Steve, I really do applaud and appreciate the effort you put into these games. Won't stop me from crowing at ya from the sidelines in the future, but hey, I figure I at least ought to put that out there .

[Steve]

I would gladly be involved in this as a bit part once again, since I actually really enjoyed SDNW3. Maybe a significant cluster further off with only a couple of outposts near 'mainspace' - maybe a couple on various 'sides' isolated from each other to keep me from having only one relatively static zone of interest.

I'd also be very willing to contribute ideas from my own bizarre notions of sci-fi goodness if there's anything that needs fleshing out.

Oh, SDNW3 had some enjoyable bits (I had a blast writing the pre-wedding posts with Thanas for instance, and some fun in my finagling and planning with Wilkens over California), but it seems too many people just simply didn't have interest, and in turn it makes it hard to play if everyone you'd potentially interact with is an NPC. I mean, I had this awesome navy and nobody to toy with using it. Sure, I could've had Main Fleet sail to Darwin, link up with Australia Fleet, and conduct "exercises" in the eastern Indian Ocean to see if I could prompt Lonestar's Navy to wet its uniform trousers, but that's too much effort.

[Ryan Thunder]

Oh, what the hell. Count me in.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

In the name of the Holy God Emperor of Holy Terra, we will purge the xenos, scourge the heretic, and burn the witch....

[Shroom Man 777]

I think I'm game for it. Though May/June will be busy for me, with me being incarcerated for the entire month of June to study for my board exams. But I think I've got just the right piece of hilarious science-fiction for SDNWorlds!

[Akhlut]

Yeah, I'd be up for it.

Out of curiosity, how whacky can we get? Like, can we have some sort of mega-wormhole event spit out a planet from an alternate universe where, say, dinosaurs survived, and they go on to develop a spacefaring civilization? Would that be cool?

[MKSheppard]

The Shepistani Imperial Navy will bombard you from orbit with nukes and biological weapons!

NUKE THE SITE FROM ORBIT. ITS THE ONLY WAY TO BE SURE.

[Bluewolf]

I would love to take part in such a game but I fear a mix of busyness and player fatigue would mean that we'd have far less players and ergo, less lifespan for the game. Thus holding off for a little while may be preferable. That's just me though..

[Thanas]

I think I'm game for it. Though May/June will be busy for me, with me being incarcerated for the entire month of June to study for my board exams. But I think I've got just the right piece of hilarious science-fiction for SDNWorlds!

AIs are mine. So don't even think about it.

That said, I would request a Gamestart of no sooner than July or August, due to me being busy until then and still playing SDNW3.

[Shroom Man 777]

Try, the most brutal regime imaginable. But played for LAUGHS!

[loomer]

I'm thinking, for my distant empire, an old offshoot from Earth. Colonization from before FTL began - they manage to get, at fractional C with a generation ship, out there early enough to get a few good worlds going before everyone else finally gets there and they're just like "Wait, so you guys didn't spend six generations on a flying coffin? Oh, MAN!"

[Akhlut]

I'm thinking, for my distant empire, an old offshoot from Earth. Colonization from before FTL began - they manage to get, at fractional C with a generation ship, out there early enough to get a few good worlds going before everyone else finally gets there and they're just like "Wait, so you guys didn't spend six generations on a flying coffin? Oh, MAN!"

No manspiders? I'm disappointed, Loomer.

[MKSheppard]

Try, the most brutal regime imaginable. But played for LAUGHS!

The Shroomish Confederation, home of the Galaxy's worst torturers. Who also contract out for lunch money to the Sheppos.

[Setzer]

I'm willing to give it a try. SDN world 2 was fun until it seemed like I was going to get killed again.

[loomer]

I'm thinking, for my distant empire, an old offshoot from Earth. Colonization from before FTL began - they manage to get, at fractional C with a generation ship, out there early enough to get a few good worlds going before everyone else finally gets there and they're just like "Wait, so you guys didn't spend six generations on a flying coffin? Oh, MAN!"

No manspiders? I'm disappointed, Loomer.

Oh, there'll be manspiders a plenty, lurking behind the scenes and in the shadowy crevices of the vast cave cities.

Actually, there might be real manspiders depending on how the consensus on genetech goes.

[Siege]

The mighty SOVEREIGNTY will stand guard against any Shroomanian Bragulan depravities! Guarding the galaxy in the name of liberty, 1980s macho bullshit and utter assholery!

[Steve]

Try, the most brutal regime imaginable. But played for LAUGHS!

I was kinda looking forward to SPACE SHROOMS.

Anyway, interesting to see that there's a lot of interest in it, though it seems a respite would be wise, with Shroom being indisposed soon and Fin busy and stuff. July does sound like a good start date, giving us two and a half months to "rest" and, maybe around mid-May, begin contemplating the exact form of the game and making a map.

[loomer]

For the map, if we want 3-Dimensions and someone can work out how to use the fucking thing properly, we could try using Astrosynthesis.

[Shroom Man 777]

The mighty SOVEREIGNTY will stand guard against any Shroomanian Bragulan depravities! Guarding the galaxy in the name of liberty, 1980s macho bullshit and utter assholery!

The Bragulan Star Empire will enact the Great Imperator's most benevolent mandates, and correct humanity's ideological impurities! Through the application of skyscraper-sized interstellar nuclear missiles in the name of galactic peace and safety! For Mighty Bragule!

[Thanas]

My nation will be mechanized Space Germans. Terminators and Andromeda-style AIs ahoy.

[Siege]

The ripped sexual tyrannosauruses of the Sovereignty Marine Corps will show your Imperator and your metal contraptions what it means to be manly in space. Hooah!

[Steve]

For the map, if we want 3-Dimensions and someone can work out how to use the fucking thing properly, we could try using Astrosynthesis.

My idea was to use either a square or a hex map for sectors and to have three to five different "Maps", each a different "layer" of space. Sector 2D-2 is below Sector 2D-1 for instance.

I'm presuming this is the standard method of torture in Bragula:

[Steve]

My nation will be mechanized Space Germans. Terminators and Andromeda-style AIs ahoy.

Will one of their prime directives be the conquest of Space Poland? *rimshot*