SDN World 3 Commentary Thread III

[Thanas]

In other news, does any Royal House have any princess of Royal Blood around? After all, the German Crown Prince needs a new wife.

Heh, well, HRH the Princess A'ishah, heiress apparent to the throne of the Sultanate, is not yet married, and she probably has one or two younger sisters as well. It's not your traditional European royal house, but hey, stranger things have happened...

Is she willing to convert to christianity?

[Siege]

No, I don't think she would be. Her father holds amongst his great many titles those of Caliph, Commander of the Faithful, and Sultan of the Warriors of the Faith, titles which would be transferred to A'ishah upon her assumption of the throne, so that would be entirely too awkward.

A conversion could be managed with one of her sisters though. There'd be a few people who'd object I'm sure, but I imagine the Sultan and the Greater Diwan would think it might be advantageous to have one of the lesser princesses convert... It'd convey quite strongly that when the Sultan talks about religious tolerance he means it. Even though he'd probably not like the idea much personally, but hey.

[Lascaris]

You were saying?

Very nice. Now how much was the block coefficient of the two Queens or Normsandie or for that matter Yamato. Oh circa 0.6, 0.612 in the case of the Yamato. Yours has 0.8. Much too high. Soo a straight enlargement of the Queen Mary to Bretagne size

Plan 1921, Cisplatina Enter ship type laid down 1926

Displacement:
72.648 t light; 74.670 t standard; 101.113 t normal; 122.267 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(1.165,89 ft / 1.130,00 ft) x 131,00 ft x (39,00 / 45,48 ft)
(355,36 m / 344,42 m) x 39,93 m x (11,89 / 13,86 m)

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 267.008 shp / 199.188 Kw = 32,00 kts
Range 10.400nm at 30,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 47.597 tons

Complement:
2.834 - 3.685

Cost:
£12,917 million / $51,670 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 0 tons, 0,0%
Machinery: 8.547 tons, 8,5%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 32.101 tons, 31,7%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 28.465 tons, 28,2%
Miscellaneous weights: 32.000 tons, 31,6%
- On freeboard deck: 32.000 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
359.410 lbs / 163.026 Kg = 123,3 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 19,6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,31
Metacentric height 12,1 ft / 3,7 m
Roll period: 15,8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 43 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,23

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and large transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,613 / 0,636
Length to Beam Ratio: 8,63 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 38,35 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 30
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 35,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 10,00 ft / 3,05 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20,00%, 36,98 ft / 11,27 m, 30,25 ft / 9,22 m
- Forward deck: 30,00%, 30,25 ft / 9,22 m, 23,53 ft / 7,17 m
- Aft deck: 35,00%, 23,53 ft / 7,17 m, 23,53 ft / 7,17 m
- Quarter deck: 15,00%, 23,53 ft / 7,17 m, 23,53 ft / 7,17 m
- Average freeboard: 26,42 ft / 8,05 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 29,1%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 192,6%
Waterplane Area: 114.245 Square feet or 10.614 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 206%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 212 lbs/sq ft or 1.034 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1,35
- Longitudinal: 0,90
- Overall: 1,00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Oops.

[Thanas]

You were saying?

Very nice. Now how much was the block coefficient of the two Queens or Normsandie or for that matter Yamato. Oh circa 0.6, 0.612 in the case of the Yamato. Yours has 0.8. Much too high. Soo a straight enlargement of the Queen Mary to Bretagne size

Sources for the block coefficient for the Normandie? I used her dimensions for this ship. Why don't you post the Bretagne specs for that matter?

[Lonestar]

In other news, does any Royal House have any princess of Royal Blood around? After all, the German Crown Prince needs a new wife.

Hmm...Next in line for the throne of Lord Protector would be Lord Fairfax's 1st Cousin, Lady Catherine. She's single and in her 20s. Catholic(or the Dominion version) of it though.

[Lascaris]

You were saying?

Very nice. Now how much was the block coefficient of the two Queens or Normsandie or for that matter Yamato. Oh circa 0.6, 0.612 in the case of the Yamato. Yours has 0.8. Much too high. Soo a straight enlargement of the Queen Mary to Bretagne size

Sources for the block coefficient for the Normandie? I used her dimensions for this ship. Why don't you post the Bretagne specs for that matter?

Because the only spec for Bretagne around is "enlarged Normandie 97,000 tons" The block coefficient for Normandy and Queen Mary is a simple exercise in springsharp given dimensions and a normal displacement of 82,000 tons for the Queen Mary giving a block coefficient of 0.613. Normandie at 71300 tons would amount to considerably less.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

In other news, does any Royal House have any princess of Royal Blood around? After all, the German Crown Prince needs a new wife.

There might be a Byzantine princess lying around...

[Siege]

Hehe, that's a funny way of phrasing it, Fin...

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Hehe, that's a funny way of phrasing it, Fin...

One princess, coming right up!

[CmdrWilkens]

I don't have any immediately available, the current Emperor having married late and being the only son of Don Agustín de Iturbide y Green, that said there would be cousins within the Hapsburg-Iturbide dynasty though most of them are in Europe. Notably the daughters of Maria Josepha Sophia de Iturbide would likely be available though neither holds rank higher than Duchess since that branch of the family never assumed the throne as they did in real life/ Maria Josepha remains an Infanta but her daughters though available are not.

Anyway you'd have to go to Venice to find out as this branch remains overseas.

[Steve]

An interesting impasse. Lascaris is effectively being punished because Bean was an absentee player who didn't participate when he should have. Yet if we let Lascaris retroactively give a negative reaction to the Dutch conquest at the time, it would inevitably have had some effect on how the conquest was perceived internationally and how the countries doing it behave, jumbling up the game.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

An interesting impasse. Lascaris is effectively being punished because Bean was an absentee player who didn't participate when he should have. Yet if we let Lascaris retroactively give a negative reaction to the Dutch conquest at the time, it would inevitably have had some effect on how the conquest was perceived internationally and how the countries doing it behave, jumbling up the game.

Let's not open too many can of worms because there are lots to open and slip on if we really want to.

[Thanas]

An interesting impasse. Lascaris is effectively being punished because Bean was an absentee player who didn't participate when he should have. Yet if we let Lascaris retroactively give a negative reaction to the Dutch conquest at the time, it would inevitably have had some effect on how the conquest was perceived internationally and how the countries doing it behave, jumbling up the game.

If Britain had protested, the war would most likely have kept on going, yes, because the Dutch would have gotten some kind of hope for reinforcement. Whether that would actually have arrived against an immense numerically superiority in the German, French, Spanish and Portugese Navies (with Tuscany all but poised to join that coalition and the Dominion being anti-dutch as well) is however a whole other cup and essentially would depend on whether the british would risk all their colonies and their existence for a socialist state that had already maneuvered itself into an unwinnable situation. If the Dutch kept on going, the only question left was whether they would starve in three months or half a year, because there is no way the British are able to ferry that many reinforcements and food to the Netherlands that quickly.

However, the Dutch situation is not what Sänger is pissed about. On December 6th, (link to storypost) he was informed by the French President that Britain had tried to rope France into an alliance against Germany, that Britain had tried to persuade France to break its alliance, had promised territorial concessions from Germany and laid out basic plans for a victory against Germany. All of this using secret diplomacy.

Now, it might be the French President is lying through his teeth for whatever reason, is exaggerating, misunderstood etc. However, who is he going to believe more - an ally that has proven its worth and has made a remarkable attempt at rapproachment with the German Empire and which has been willing to solve territorial conflicts diplomatically, or a Government whose whole existence is Germanophobia?

Whatever doubts Sänger might have had about the veracity of the french statements has now been erased, because when he confronted the British he received a reply that was pretty much "You broke the treaty first and we only tried a defensive alliance, oh, btw, justify your behaviour. No apology whatsoever from us" .

[Lascaris]

Now, it might be the French President is lying through his teeth for whatever reason, is exaggerating, misunderstood etc. However, who is he going to believe more - an ally that has proven its worth and has made a remarkable attempt at rapproachment with the German Empire and which has been willing to solve territorial conflicts diplomatically, or a Government whose whole existence is Germanophobia?

Who is the chancellor to believe? His own intelligence services. Still below are the PMs exchanged between moi and Baerne with me running Britain. Whether they should be treated as anything but OOC is a different question, one Baerne answered for both of us. Whether they support the French view of Britain trying to get France along for an attack against Germany, the view that France misunderstood/is paranoid or the view France is lying through its teeth, why everyone can make his own judgement.

Me to Baerne

I'm short of wondering what France gains from further alliance with Germany now that it has gained Belgium and Alsace Lorraine. I can't see France gaining anything from the further strengthening of Germany, rather the opposite. A French alliance with Germany means Germany can do as it pleases elsewhere. But with Germany already being more powerfull than France letting it act as it pleases only means Germany further growing to a position that will be able to ignore France with impunity...

Thoughts?

Baerne to me

What France gains from an alliance with Germany is security. We are the two most powerful nations in Europe; combining our strength leaves France in a position of near-supremacy for the small price of not stepping on German toes in too egregious a way. I find it highly improbable that Germany power will ever grow enough to allow the Empire to completely ignore France - we share a border and the French Army is one of the best in Europe, while our Air Force puts Germany's to shame.

You'll have to do better than that, methinks.

Me to Baerne



Message subject: Re: Entente
Folder: Sent messages
Master_Baerne wrote:
What France gains from an alliance with Germany is security. We are the two most powerful nations in Europe; combining our strength leaves France in a position of near-supremacy for the small price of not stepping on German toes in too egregious a way. I find it highly improbable that Germany power will ever grow enough to allow the Empire to completely ignore France - we share a border and the French Army is one of the best in Europe, while our Air Force puts Germany's to shame.

You'll have to do better than that, methinks.

Me to Baerne

Sure. You have 2 options allying with Britain or allying with Germany. Post that even accounting for your territorial gains you are ging to be outmached economicaly by Germany and all the more so in population.

If you ally with Germany you ensure Germany's dominant position in Europe. Which in turn means that 5-10 years down the road Germany will outweight you by about two to one thanks to the 60 million Dutch it has annexed. How exactly you contain if need be or otherwise influence Germany in such a situation? At the best of circumstances Germany simply will not need France. Outside Europe France will be very much dependent on the support of the High Seas Fleet but this will be increasingly costlier to obtain.

If you ally with Britain on the other hand the French army will be matching Germany on land and the Royal Navy matching it at sea and Germany wouldn't be able to outproduce France and Britain combined. So France can very well be one of the two prime powers in the continent and potentially the foremost power. Outside Europe it will depend to RN support but Britain would be utterly dependent to French power on land.

Baerne to me

What you forget, my good man, is that while Germany got most of Holland, I got a large swath of Belgium, all of the Dutch colonies, and, and this is a vitally important "and," a chokehold on the German economy in the form of the Lorrain mines. We are quite equitably balanced, in my opinion, and I firmly believe that as long as German and French interests coincide, we shall both profit amply.

Regarding your (thinly) veiled proposal of an anti-German alliance, consider the facts: As it stands, all I have to gain by allying with you is the promise of future influence. Influence that, I must remind you, I already have. Furthermore, I have every reason to believe that the second German and French troops have finished killing each other in Flanders' fields, there will be a legion of British soldiers rowing up the Seine as the Royal Navy delivers the killing blow to the Marine Nationale. I do not appreciate your attempts to sway French allegiance from an honorable ally, and they have not been, are not now, and are unlikely to ever be successful.

Me to Baerne

Hey I resent the thinly veiled part. Britain needs exactly that from France namely an anti-German alliance to keep the German menace at bay. Whether France wants to provide one is a different thing but how am I to know without playing out the card? After all to be a cynic the Franco-German alliance isn't even a year old at this point and came to being to dismember Holland. So what's to lose by trying?

And it's not as if Britain has all that many options besides doing it's best at containment. It's not as if for example Paris and Berlin have come offering a triple Entente to Britain.

[Master_Baerne]

... Right, then.

Lascaris, generally one doesn't publish damning documents. I direct the court of public opinion's attention to the last exchange; note that Lascaris resents only the 'thinly-veiled' part of my accusation. Not, for example, the accusation itself. He then goes on to explain why it makes sense for Britain to try and split up the Franco-German Alliance - valid reasons all, I must add - and reform it as either an Anglo-French or an Anglo-German alliance. I believe Thanas has some similar PMs sitting around, in point of fact.

[Lascaris]

... Right, then.

Lascaris, generally one doesn't publish damning documents. I direct the court of public opinion's attention to the last exchange; note that Lascaris resents only the 'thinly-veiled' part of my accusation. Not, for example, the accusation itself. He then goes on to explain why it makes sense for Britain to try and split up the Franco-German Alliance - valid reasons all, I must add - and reform it as either an Anglo-French or an Anglo-German alliance. I believe Thanas has some similar PMs sitting around, in point of fact.

You accused Britain of planning to attack Germany and trying to get France on the bandwagon for that. Not Britain of trying to ally with France. All the way to fantastic notions of attacking the High Seas Fleet and being offered German territory. The exchange is out there for all to see.

If you consider the very notion of Britain making overtures to France... damning for not considering the Franco-German alliance sacred why that's your prerogative. Of course a cynic would be considering the factual basis of this alliance on the equivalent of the Polish partitions and the Ribbendrop-Molotov pact as not exactly a sign that France and Germany suddenly decided to join in brotherly love putting aside centuries of hostility just in the name of European peace.

[Steve]

Lascaris, was your conversation intended to be an IC overture to France or an OOC overture to Baerne as a player?

And, honestly, I see Lascaris making some accurate observations OOC and Thanas grossly exaggerating them in-character, which is why I'm considering that entire post to the British Parliament retconned.

[Steve]

Actually, let me just get to this point without the distraction of people using OOC information in a distorted IC sense.

The mods are in unanimous agreement that SDNW3 is dead. That there aren't enough remaining players, or active ones, interested in the game to keep it going. At least one person I've told is resistant to the death announcement, but he's the only one. Would any others like to argue that this game isn't ready to be consigned to the dust bin?

Note that if people want to agree the game is out but wrap up storylines or what have you, go ahead. Hell, PeZook spent six months doing one for SDNW2.

[Thanas]

Lascaris, was your conversation intended to be an IC overture to France or an OOC overture to Baerne as a player?

And, honestly, I see Lascaris making some accurate observations OOC and Thanas grossly exaggerating them in-character, which is why I'm considering that entire post to the British Parliament retconned.

Yeah, right. The post stands. Note that Sänger is IC using an affidavit from the French President.

Actually, let me just get to this point without the distraction of people using OOC information in a distorted IC sense.

The mods are in unanimous agreement that SDNW3 is dead. That there aren't enough remaining players, or active ones, interested in the game to keep it going. At least one person I've told is resistant to the death announcement, but he's the only one. Would any others like to argue that this game isn't ready to be consigned to the dust bin?

Note that if people want to agree the game is out but wrap up storylines or what have you, go ahead. Hell, PeZook spent six months doing one for SDNW2.

I disagree, for the very reason that I spent quite a lot of work already preparing future storylines. And it is quite nice that the mods are in agreement, considering that one of them did not even make a single post, with another one making a total of...three or four?

Right.

*************************

In other news, I've gotten another storypost up. Whoever wants to make some money can do so now, contract bidding is open to anyone who wants to.

[Lonestar]

While the House of Fairfax is the ruling line of the Grand Dominion of the Indies through the position of Lord Protector, the actual throne for the Crusader Kingdom of the Indies has been vacant for a few hundred years(following the Shepistani/Dominion split). So the Fairfaxes are Royal-ish(can ennoble people, grant knighthoods, etc) ...does that count?

[Thanas]

While the House of Fairfax is the ruling line of the Grand Dominion of the Indies through the position of Lord Protector, the actual throne for the Crusader Kingdom of the Indies has been vacant for a few hundred years(following the Shepistani/Dominion split). So the Fairfaxes are Royal-ish(can ennoble people, grant knighthoods, etc) ...does that count?

Certainly it does. Royal house in this context means "ruling noble family of a nation". So Grand-Dukes or ruling lines are definitely applicable.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

What exactly are you going for for ships? Actual Spring Sharp designs, or anything?

[Thanas]

What exactly are you going for for ships? Actual Spring Sharp designs, or anything?

Nah, for the ships besides the troop transports only the tonnage matters. I based the designs on T2 tankers and actual ships supply and repair ships. The only design I really did in Springsharp is for the troop transports because it matters how many people they can carry.

The designs specs should be manageable by any shipyard anyway, I deliberately made them so everyone can compete.

[Steve]

Lascaris, was your conversation intended to be an IC overture to France or an OOC overture to Baerne as a player?

And, honestly, I see Lascaris making some accurate observations OOC and Thanas grossly exaggerating them in-character, which is why I'm considering that entire post to the British Parliament retconned.

Yeah, right. The post stands. Note that Sänger is IC using an affidavit from the French President.

On a conversation that was OOC! The post is out.

Actually, let me just get to this point without the distraction of people using OOC information in a distorted IC sense.

The mods are in unanimous agreement that SDNW3 is dead. That there aren't enough remaining players, or active ones, interested in the game to keep it going. At least one person I've told is resistant to the death announcement, but he's the only one. Would any others like to argue that this game isn't ready to be consigned to the dust bin?

Note that if people want to agree the game is out but wrap up storylines or what have you, go ahead. Hell, PeZook spent six months doing one for SDNW2.

I disagree, for the very reason that I spent quite a lot of work already preparing future storylines. And it is quite nice that the mods are in agreement, considering that one of them did not even make a single post, with another one making a total of...three or four?

Right.

*************************

In other news, I've gotten another storypost up. Whoever wants to make some money can do so now, contract bidding is open to anyone who wants to.

Sure, you've got future storylines, but what about everyone else? Hell, who else is left? And of the active players, who can do anything? Lascaris certainly can't, his choice is "Accept German hegemony" or "suffer complete isolation" (since his attempts at a balance of power have exploded rather spectacular, in no small part I imagine due to his personality and methods of diplomacy).

And if you think this is just the mods deciding the game is effectively over, why don't you ask around? I have, and a general opinion of the game having run its course is what I found with all exceptions save you, Shep, and, maybe, Lonestar (I'm not sure).

And that's actually the reason I made this post; to see if anyone has contrary opinions. If people want to continue writing stuff in this world they can feel free too, but seeing all the people who've quit, gone inactive, or simply are sitting around, we came to the consensus that the game was dead.

So, anyone else agree with Thanas?

[Ryan Thunder]

I'd be glad to start another. I was originally enthusiastic about this setting, but quickly realized that its much too restrictive for my tastes.