SDN World 3 Commentary Thread III

[Lonestar]

nvm.

[Steve]

More like the Byzantines might appreciate the Grand Dominion being kept open to counter Shepistan and stuff. But whatever. I've been awake for too long and my brain's starting to fritz.

[Thanas]

Eh...WTF?

Then Dominion has a training exercise for laying a barrage - a good way to determine the operational system and work out obvious kinks - and Germany goes ballistic, believing it a betrayal of "it's only a study" remark, and reinforces its IO squadrons

Did you even read my post? I did not reinforce the IO squadrons. In fact, my characters explicitly state that they cannot do so. Heck, last quarter I even withdrew three BBs from there. What I will do is put a few more coastal guns in Berbera.

That about sum it up?

Only if you somehow missed a lot of my post.

If so, why the heck are Egypt and Byzantium being pro-German when it's clear it's primarily a misunderstanding?

I do not think they are pro-German. The Egyptians however most likely "support" Germany (if you can call an exchange of information support) because when you get the perception your holdings are threatened, it is good to have some friendly relationships with powers that might be able to help out? Oh, and because Germany is one of the heaviest users of the Suez canal?

And what has Lonestar's government done to make anyone believe he's about to attack the holdings of a European power along the Indian Ocean?

Do you see anybody expressing that opinion? Certainly not me.

I can't help but think some of this is certain players acting IC on OOC attitudes about Lonestar, particularly his behavior in SDNW2. We went through this shit over the Soviet-Manchurian War and we went through it over Czechmate's presence in the game and I am tired of it. I know it's not something you can easily dump but, for the sake of RP, please try?

WTF? I did not even take part in SDNW2.


Anyway, here is my perception on the issue:
- The Dominion makes a study about mining the IO.
- Germany gets concerned (no wonder when a lot of your trade goes through there - probably 40% or so of my trade) and receives a reply stating that a) It is only a study and b) were it enacted, the dominion would need to expand its capabilities tremendously
- Then, we have an exercise where the Dominion just happens to expand their capabilities by using converted merchant ships etc. When asked about this, the response is basically: "no, we do not plan to mine the Gulf of Aden and mind your own business". Despite it being clear that such a capability can be trivially easily used to mine the Gulf of Aden.
- Germany responds by saying "I hope you understand our concern" and asks other nations to built an information network so that everybody gets an early warning if such an attempt would be made.
- Dominion response: "HELP. THE GERMANS ARE PLANNING TO ATTACK US."

Right. Have I reinforced the squadrons? No. Have I put marines into the Indian Ocean? No. Did I relocate more airplanes there? No. Any more subs? No. Troop transports? No. Did I in any way increase the presence there? Nope.

All that has happened is that the German Empire is formalizing local exchanges of information that are probably already in place informally. If anybody is blowing a fuse over the issue, it is the Dominion.

What is happening is that both the Dominion and Germany are playing up the threat at the moment. Sänger is a bit paranoid about the Dominion mining the Gulf of Aden (why? Well, it is not like the Dominion has not acted irrationally before, right? Remember the "hey, let's intercept merchant shipping for shits and giggles"?), but it is not as if he is sending the HSF to the IO to blockade the Dominion.

[Steve]

Eh...WTF?

Then Dominion has a training exercise for laying a barrage - a good way to determine the operational system and work out obvious kinks - and Germany goes ballistic, believing it a betrayal of "it's only a study" remark, and reinforces its IO squadrons

Did you even read my post? I did not reinforce the IO squadrons. In fact, my characters explicitly state that they cannot do so. Heck, last quarter I even withdrew three BBs from there. What I will do is put a few more coastal guns in Berbera.

Yeah, but somehow I had a brain worm in my head that said you reinforced.

That about sum it up?

Only if you somehow missed a lot of my post.

I read it, but I forgot. Part of the reason I posted that bit was, in fact, to see if there was anything I was missing.

If so, why the heck are Egypt and Byzantium being pro-German when it's clear it's primarily a misunderstanding?

I do not think they are pro-German. The Egyptians however most likely "support" Germany (if you can call an exchange of information support) because when you get the perception your holdings are threatened, it is good to have some friendly relationships with powers that might be able to help out? Oh, and because Germany is one of the heaviest users of the Suez canal?

I liked Siege's reason better.

And what has Lonestar's government done to make anyone believe he's about to attack the holdings of a European power along the Indian Ocean?

Do you see anybody expressing that opinion? Certainly not me.

No, but OTOH it does seem that people are all the sudden getting antsy about the Grand Dominion for what was, essentially, an exercise in mine warfare, to the point that you had your leaders declare their leader not trustworthy because his Navy dared to exercise the laying of mines (How is that inconsistent with prior remarks on the mine barrage concept being an internal study? You study it, you use exercises to determine characteristics of the operation that are relevant to the study and final determination of worth). So clearly you do have concerns about the future behavior of the Dominion. Mostly, I'm sure, wrapped up in the prospect of a mine barrage across the Gulf of Aden, though it seems more likely it'll be done over to the tip of Oman to try and bottle up the Shepistani Navy.

I can't help but think some of this is certain players acting IC on OOC attitudes about Lonestar, particularly his behavior in SDNW2. We went through this shit over the Soviet-Manchurian War and we went through it over Czechmate's presence in the game and I am tired of it. I know it's not something you can easily dump but, for the sake of RP, please try?

WTF? I did not even take part in SDNW2.

Hence the term "certain players", and one of them I was thinking of did, in fact, point out his IC motivations for this, and I have to agree they're valid. Rather aggressive, but valid.

Anyway, here is my perception on the issue:
- The Dominion makes a study about mining the IO.
- Germany gets concerned (no wonder when a lot of your trade goes through there - probably 40% or so of my trade) and receives a reply stating that a) It is only a study and b) were it enacted, the dominion would need to expand its capabilities tremendously
- Then, we have an exercise where the Dominion just happens to expand their capabilities by using converted merchant ships etc. When asked about this, the response is basically: "no, we do not plan to mine the Gulf of Aden and mind your own business". Despite it being clear that such a capability can be trivially easily used to mine the Gulf of Aden.
- Germany responds by saying "I hope you understand our concern" and asks other nations to built an information network so that everybody gets an early warning if such an attempt would be made.
- Dominion response: "HELP. THE GERMANS ARE PLANNING TO ATTACK US."

Right. Have I reinforced the squadrons? No. Have I put marines into the Indian Ocean? No. Did I relocate more airplanes there? No. Any more subs? No. Troop transports? No. Did I in any way increase the presence there? Nope.

So now I've got it from your end and I see what's going on.

All that has happened is that the German Empire is formalizing local exchanges of information that are probably already in place informally. If anybody is blowing a fuse over the issue, it is the Dominion.

What is happening is that both the Dominion and Germany are playing up the threat at the moment. Sänger is a bit paranoid about the Dominion mining the Gulf of Aden (why? Well, it is not like the Dominion has not acted irrationally before, right? Remember the "hey, let's intercept merchant shipping for shits and giggles"?), but it is not as if he is sending the HSF to the IO to blockade the Dominion.

Given the undeclared naval war the merchant shipping thing has some logic, save that you need to count a ship's captain being part of a corrupt clique blackmailing merchants (and getting punished for it at least).

The Dominion does love to act like it's under perpetual threat. They're not too thrilled with the presence and strength level of Australia Fleet either.

[Thanas]

No, but OTOH it does seem that people are all the sudden getting antsy about the Grand Dominion for what was, essentially, an exercise in mine warfare, to the point that you had your leaders declare their leader not trustworthy because his Navy dared to exercise the laying of mines

AFAIK Sänger has never expressed that opinion in public. Wilhelm did and it nearly cost him his throne. And even if Sänger would stand on the copula of the Reichstag wearing a banner "Fairfax is a big fat liar" that would be pretty tame considering the recent official and on the record remarks by Fairfax's government. Seriously, the remarks of the Dominion are a whole different ballgame.

(How is that inconsistent with prior remarks on the mine barrage concept being an internal study? You study it, you use exercises to determine characteristics of the operation that are relevant to the study and final determination of worth). So clearly you do have concerns about the future behavior of the Dominion. Mostly, I'm sure, wrapped up in the prospect of a mine barrage across the Gulf of Aden, though it seems more likely it'll be done over to the tip of Oman to try and bottle up the Shepistani Navy.

Given that every attempt at a detente seems to be met with more Dominion provocation, I'd rather not take any chances.

I deploy BBs to protect my convoys from Dominion aggression, something they agreed to. Response: Dominion screams bloody murder and starts Naval buildup.
I withdraw battleships. Response: Dominion develops mine-laying capabilities.
I voice my concerns. Response: Dominion blows me off and tells me to mind my own business.
I ask others to share information. Response: Dominion insults Germany, shuts out German arm manufacturers and claims Germany is building an anti-Dominean coalition.

It is getting pretty tiresome. I have not one single modern unit deployed to the IO. Not one marine brigade. Yet somehow the Dominion sees that as impending invasion. Apparently, any attempt to decrease forces in the IO will be met with more Dominion whining and strength is the only language they understand. No matter what Germany tries to do, it cannot stop wasting forces in the IO. Heck, I proposed a scheme that would all but eliminate German presence there a while back, the Dominion refused.

Hence my perception that the Dominion is simply not acting in good faith. IC the reason is pretty simple - it wants Germany there so it has a bogeyman. Fine, two can play that game. See the new Naval law.


EDIT: Oh, and new storypost up. I think I am pretty much on track for ending Q4 1926 on time.

[Lascaris]

Well, it's colored purple on the map.

Not that it'd be too useful as a naval base due to the high cliffs on one side and shallow waters on the other. IIRC main access to the island today is by air, not sea.

Well since Fin does not appear to have claimed it after all I'll stick to it. After all Lonestar and Ma Deuce between them seem to have claimed nearly every British possesion in the Indian ocean.

[CmdrWilkens]

So the follies of a failed war means my government has shifted conservative and authoritarian. Were a general election held they likely would have swept in to power but the impatient bastards wanted to move quickly on the Cascadian President's absence to start making noises about the lost province of Baja. In other words there are still moderating elements in the current government coalition but there is going to be a further shift towards bellicosity with the current crop.

[Lonestar]

It is getting pretty tiresome. I have not one single modern unit deployed to the IO. Not one marine brigade. Yet somehow the Dominion sees that as impending invasion. Apparently, any attempt to decrease forces in the IO will be met with more Dominion whining and strength is the only language they understand. No matter what Germany tries to do, it cannot stop wasting forces in the IO. Heck, I proposed a scheme that would all but eliminate German presence there a while back, the Dominion refused.

Nooooooo you didn't. You offered to remove escorts for vessels going to the Grand Dominion if the Dominion picks up the slack, which would have the effect of watering down the assets the GDN has on hand while allowing the Sheppos to continue to enjoy German protection for vessels bound for their country.

And German Arms manufacturers got shut out after Germany decided to crawl up the Dominion's butthole about a naval exercises going on in it's own waters, and then sent out diplomatic messages to every country under the sun in what is clearly the early stages of building an anti-Grand Dominion coalition. You must be crazy if you don't think such a diplomatic offensive wouldn't be perceived as testing the waters for who would be onboard for an anti-Dominion coalition.

[Lonestar]

I might add that going back and looking through the those Diplomatic notes in reference to the mine-barrage scheme, We stated that it was a scheme for blocking in Shepistan and you responded with "We have German naval vessels that escort convoys into Shepistan, what about THEM, huh?"(which is as good as saying that you will go to war with the Grand Dominion if myself and Shep go all out).

The Dominion need to expand it's minelaying capabilities wasn't really touched on in those notes.

[loomer]

If it comes down to it, it'll be interesting to have to determine Afghanistan's stance on the matter, given the cooperation with the Dominion and Byzantines and the ill-will with Shepistan. The will of the manspiders that secretly rule the nation is already hard enough to discern.

[Thanas]

I might add that going back and looking through the those Diplomatic notes in reference to the mine-barrage scheme, We stated that it was a scheme for blocking in Shepistan and you responded with "We have German naval vessels that escort convoys into Shepistan, what about THEM, huh?"(which is as good as saying that you will go to war with the Grand Dominion if myself and Shep go all out).

Eh...no. You stated the safety of those ships would be taken into account, the German Government accepted that.

Nooooooo you didn't. You offered to remove escorts for vessels going to the Grand Dominion if the Dominion picks up the slack, which would have the effect of watering down the assets the GDN has on hand while allowing the Sheppos to continue to enjoy German protection for vessels bound for their country.

The Sheppos were offered the same deal, I received no reply on the matter. At least I tried to deescalate the situation.

[Thanas]

Okay, having looked through this thread once more:

First, my apologies for my previous tone. Looking at it from Lonestar's side, one could interpret the German actions as overblown or as trying to form an anti-dominion coalition, even if that allegation is untrue. On the minelaying issue, I have issued an official statement by the government and would also like to reiterate OOC that this really is the official position of my government.

I have no interest in the Indian Ocean except for keeping the lanes to the suez canal open.

[Akhlut]

Well, due to some action from Loomer, I'm going to make some attempts to keep things rolling with Mongolia. Hopefully, Lascaris sees that the Bloody Baron is trying to get ahold of the Admiral now for WHACKY FASCIST HIJINKS.

Also, Ulan Bator is not a city in this world, as there wasn't a Communist revolution and subsequent renaming of everything. The capital is currently Niislel Khüree. Sorry about missing that forever and a day ago, but, I've been busy.

[Thanas]

Doublepost deleted due to request by author.

EDIT: Glad to hear that, Akhlut. Though I was kinda hoping you would take over the USSR...

[Akhlut]

Doublepost deleted due to request by author.

EDIT: Glad to hear that, Akhlut. Though I was kinda hoping you would take over the USSR...

Thank you muchly for the deletion of the doublepost; but, as far as the Soviets go, I don't think I'm up to it. What with a kid and a vacation I've got to plan, I don't think I'd have time to do what I'd want/need to do with the MOTHERLAND, especially given the backstory adn effort given to it by Stas and yourself.

[Lonestar]

Eh...no. You stated the safety of those ships would be taken into account, the German Government accepted that.

Indeed the Dominion did state that. I believe the hypothetical staff discussion was something like: "What about the safety of the German convoy escorts?" "Well, sucks to be them in that scenario". Completely taken into account.

[Thanas]

^See, this is what I mean by the Dominion not trying to act in good faith. Oh well, guess I have to become a bit more aggressive.

[Thanas]

And the dutch resistance makes it first try at assassinating a high-placed official.

[Steve]

^See, this is what I mean by the Dominion not trying to act in good faith. Oh well, guess I have to become a bit more aggressive.

To be fair, if the Dominion ends up at war with Shepistan they have a distinct naval disadvantage already and the mine barrage plan is a proposal to try and confine the numerically superior Shepistani fleet to one region. And given it means the entire area becomes a war zone anyway, I can see why they might not rank the safety of German escorts near the top. That's the risk of running such convoys in a potential war zone.

That said, there are also issues of international law, written and unwritten, on the legality of the mine barrage and if it can count as a legitimate blockade of Shepistani ports.

[Thanas]

^See, this is what I mean by the Dominion not trying to act in good faith. Oh well, guess I have to become a bit more aggressive.

To be fair, if the Dominion ends up at war with Shepistan they have a distinct naval disadvantage already and the mine barrage plan is a proposal to try and confine the numerically superior Shepistani fleet to one region. And given it means the entire area becomes a war zone anyway, I can see why they might not rank the safety of German escorts near the top. That's the risk of running such convoys in a potential war zone.

Hey, that is not why I am making that statement. It would be ridiculously easy for the Dominion to simply make a notification or instruct the pilots aboard the german ships to not enter into area XY.

But simply making a public statement of "we take the safety of the german ships into account" and then going "Sucks to be them" means they are not even making the slightest, easiest effort.

EDIT: I'll respond to your letter tomorrow, Siege. ATM I am too tired.

[Steve]

To play devil's advocate, if they tell the Germans how to avoid the mines - presuming the barrage isn't meant to be as close to a complete seal as it can be, a la the British North Sea barrage - then the Shepistanis may find out in various ways (bribing the German pilots, having agents aboard German ships, or just observing the German traffic) and the barrage becomes a massive waste in manpower and material..

[Thanas]

To play devil's advocate, if they tell the Germans how to avoid the mines - presuming the barrage isn't meant to be as close to a complete seal as it can be, a la the British North Sea barrage

I thought it is.

- then the Shepistanis may find out in various ways (bribing the German pilots, having agents aboard German ships, or just observing the German traffic) and the barrage becomes a massive waste in manpower and material..

True, which is wh I wrote:

6. However, it is more likely that in the event of announced widespread mining, German shipping to that area will cease entirely.

[Lonestar]

^See, this is what I mean by the Dominion not trying to act in good faith. Oh well, guess I have to become a bit more aggressive.

^ See, this is why people say Germans are humorless poo-poo heads. If you need a specific plan for the safety of German Naval vessels its this: Any German vessels stuck on the "other side" of the mine barrage at the time of laying will be forwarded a course through by way of the German embassy in Shepistan. The corridor will remain open for a week, and then the GDN will mine that shut as well. A similiar offer will be given to Greek ships stuck in the Arabian Gulf.

And Thanas is right, it's intended to be like the North Sea Barrage.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

^

....

I think I'm going to lay some mines myself so that while I evacuate most of my capital ships and leave a detachment behind, no one can go and barge into my waters.

Where exactly are you going to mine? I'm not going to be entirely pleased if you practically blockade my civilian ports along the Iraqi/Persian coasts.

[Lonestar]

Like I said, I'll give the Greeks a week to get the fuck out before I close the gaps(not that it probably won't take longer to lay the barrage).