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Yeah, because going by the wiki entry (takes a handful of salt) the BAR was considered less accurate.

Anyway, I'm sure Mexico wouldn't have sold the Mondragon to a potential continental competitor, so again I have to make my own. I already have the BAR (helps when you have Browning himself) so this is an attempt at an automatic rifle that can be assigned to an infantryman as opposed to being used to support assaults at squad-level.

Steve wrote:Yeah, because going by the wiki entry (takes a handful of salt) the BAR was considered less accurate.

Anyway, I'm sure Mexico wouldn't have sold the Mondragon to a potential continental competitor, so again I have to make my own. I already have the BAR (helps when you have Browning himself) so this is an attempt at an automatic rifle that can be assigned to an infantryman as opposed to being used to support assaults at squad-level.

The 1908 was basically the Garand...just 30 years earlier. Moreover with a much more stable industrial base and metallurgical experience (along with undoubtedly samples bought or "borrowed" from Browning) the 1908 (a re-worked version of the 1901 model) would be much more resilient, probably a tad lighter, and would definitely have better ammunition quality to work with. Right now the Mexican Army operates three main variants of the Mondragon:

Modelo 1908I : Infantry rifle chambered for the 7x57mm Mauser with a 10 round box magazine
Modelo 1908S: Special Automatic Variant also chambered for the 7x57mm but with a 30 round helical magazine
Modelo 1916: Carbine chambered for the 5x60mm short barreled variant issues to tankers (coincides with the first tank units to reach the field).

The 1908I is available for export since its been around long enough that most ordnance bureau members don't think we can keep the mechanism secret or even proprietary through any means so we might as well make money on licensed production and export sales.

Steve wrote:On the issue of individual pieces of tech - like my researching early amphib assault boats - since we don't have a tech tree I was considering simply assigning an IBP total to individual items people wish to research. Once they reach the total, they can begin implementing it into their forces.

For instance, I am researching Automatic Intermediary Rifles for my Army and Marines as well as the aforementioned amphib landing boats. I will ask Rogue and/or Timothy to assign IBP totals for these projects.

Breakthroughs are not done overnight; like infrastructure and economy, investment has a minimum time, I'm thinking it will vary from 1 to 3 years depending upon what is being researched.

Note that if you try to research something earlier than it was historically developed I wish to hear a good argument on why it's feasible earlier, with my point cost total deriving from that.

Are we really going to get to that level of micromanagement and spreadsheet jockeying? Seriously? I'm doing this for fun, not to crunch numbers in Excel.

Yeah, I've begun reconsidering it under the crushing need to quantify time and cost.

I'm thinking of a slot system. Everyone gets so many tech slots, you fill the slots with things you want to research, and it takes x amount of quarters to finish. Then only time needs be quantified.

CmdrWilkens wrote:

Ryan Thunder wrote:

Steve wrote:Forgot about the Mondragon. IIRC it did prove rather susceptible to mud and such. Arguably I'm just designing a newer, better automatic rifle.

I have multiple BAR-equivalents with bigger mags at the squad level. So Mexico can faff off.

Seriously Ryan not everything is a pissing match so stop trying to make it one.

Wilkins, you wound me. I was merely hawking my goods.

Fin, just so you know, I exercised my dictatorial moderator rights and deleted one of the double posts of yours.

On the issue of slots, I'd wanted research to be mostly a behind the scenes thing, since private interests did a lot in this era (the Christie suspension for tanks for instance). Slots would thus represent what the government's directing, and every country would only get such and such number of slots, the effect being that this is what the government's funding so it'll come about faster than private research, which also may or may not be adopted.

Note that you don't have to research everything. So long as you have the right naval focus or industry, for instance, you can build newer, larger warships. The new stuff you'd have to research would be things like 20" guns or superheavy shells. Amphibious landing boats, cavalry tanks, etc. Anything not researched by the governments of the game is still presumed to be under research in the private sector, it'll just take longer.

This does, admittedly, remove IBPs from the equation, but using IBPs to simulate cash and a bit of industrial construction for prototyping, etc., was always going to be a bit off-balance. The main issue with these kinds of things is going to be time anyways, and a research slot system would allow for such anyway.

I'll take a couple final questions/complaints/issues before finalizing this.

Steve wrote:On the issue of slots, I'd wanted research to be mostly a behind the scenes thing, since private interests did a lot in this era (the Christie suspension for tanks for instance). Slots would thus represent what the government's directing, and every country would only get such and such number of slots, the effect being that this is what the government's funding so it'll come about faster than private research, which also may or may not be adopted.

Note that you don't have to research everything. So long as you have the right naval focus or industry, for instance, you can build newer, larger warships. The new stuff you'd have to research would be things like 20" guns or superheavy shells. Amphibious landing boats, cavalry tanks, etc. Anything not researched by the governments of the game is still presumed to be under research in the private sector, it'll just take longer.

This does, admittedly, remove IBPs from the equation, but using IBPs to simulate cash and a bit of industrial construction for prototyping, etc., was always going to be a bit off-balance. The main issue with these kinds of things is going to be time anyways, and a research slot system would allow for such anyway.

I'll take a couple final questions/complaints/issues before finalizing this.

Ok, so that means i can save myself 110 IBPs I allocate for research? That would be nice....

Yeah. The only question for me is A) how many slots and B) should the slot numbers be determined by Econ or Ind scores, or both?

As a note, the President and his family will probably not be leaving for Europe until the end of June, giving him enough time to arrive in Germany on the 7th or 8th of July. He'll probably head for home after two to three weeks, perhaps closer to the two, and will probably visit Berlin and Rome while in Europe, Paris on the way out and if time permits London as a last stop before taking a zeppelin flight back to North America.

Time to reverse the expected roles a little!

ATM I'm intending to implement research slots this Saturday, each country getting a number of slots equal to Economy rating (reflecting the government's access to cash for funding research efforts). You would post research projects along with your construction queue every other Saturday. Research won't cost anything any more, but you can only research a few things at a time and it'll require 1-3 years to complete depending upon complexity and nature of the project goal.

What is the use if we make those public? Every enemy, perceived or real, will just copy them.

EDIT: Also, some things like radar should take far longer than 3 years.

If it's a "secret" project, just inform us mods and list the specific slot or slots for the secret projects under generic titles. Kinda like what you'd already do if listing them in construction queues for IBP cost.

Alternatively players who actually know how to play STGODs won't do that. OOC means information everyone needs to be able to write correct story posts but it also means information that the in game characters might not have. While I know Ryan doesn't believe me I've made no secret in OOC that I don't want to keep Panama...but in game I've got conservatives clamoring for it, liberals agnostic, communists violently opposed and centrists looking at which way the wind is blowing so in game nobody knows that I'm not going to keep it even if I had managed to take it.

Its a roundabout way of saying that playing the game the right way means being able to separate the information you need to write a viable post from the information your IG characters have.

This game is starting to get more and more like Hearts of Iron II the further we progress. Sure, we're shifted back from the start of that game by about 10 years, but still. Perhaps one of us with the necessary expertise should just mod that game and be done with it...

True, Wilkens, but not everybody has faith that players won't find imaginative ways to use OOC information in a way that can pass as IC.

And seriously, Shinn, that is why I just want to go with tech slots for everyone and be done with it. And since we're not marking supplies of oil, coal, iron, etc. on the maps and making players quantify them, I'd stay we're avoiding going that far.

An example of how I want research to work.


Research

Economy 5 = 5 Projects

Slot 1: Automatic Intermediary Rifle.
Started: October 1925
Complete: October 1926

Slot 2: Amphibious Landing Boat Designs
Started: October 1925
Complete: October 1928

Slot 3: Superheavy Naval Shells (16" and 18" calibers)
Started: July 1926
Complete: July 1928

Slot 4: Improved Engines for Boats and Land Vehicles
Started: July 1926
Complete: July 1927

Slot 5: Light Tank with Suspension System
Started: July 1926
Complete: July 1927

Completion dates are by mod order depending on complexity of the project. You can put in your own initially and if we disagree we'll let you know, or you could ask by PM. Post this with your construction queues starting tomorrow.

Note that research projects begun earlier and using IBPs will still count, just remember when you started them and list that. Plus you free up the IBPs in the bargain.

Steve wrote:An example of how I want research to work.


Completion dates are by mod order depending on complexity of the project. You can put in your own initially and if we disagree we'll let you know, or you could ask by PM. Post this with your construction queues starting tomorrow.

Note that research projects begun earlier and using IBPs will still count, just remember when you started them and list that. Plus you free up the IBPs in the bargain.

All nice and well but what we actually gain from say researching semi-automatic rifles in game terms?

Well, shoot, what would a country gain by developing a superior infantry rifle and deploying it in their army?

You're missing Lascaris' point, I think, because it's actually a pretty good one: after all, didn't we agree that one infantry division equals one infantry division? No more room for people to claim "but I have X cannon of +5 awesome" to complicate matters unto infinity, because as it turns out that renders combat pretty much impossible to resolve and reduces the game to a trivia mining operation?

If that is the case, what's the semi-auto rifle actually going to do for you? Wouldn't it be better to just reduce weapons development to fluff and ignore it for the purposes of combat rolls?

Siege wrote:You're missing Lascaris' point, I think, because it's actually a pretty good one: after all, didn't we agree that one infantry division equals one infantry division?

The Mexico-Colombia war would seem to indicate a mix. Anti-aircraft guns didn't work as advertised, but trenches were easily overrun by numbers as low as 2:1, etc.

Hrm.... if everyone else wants I'll remove infantry weapons as a research-able item.

But that doesn't really address the issue, does it? Because the same thing can pretty much be said about gun radars for warships, new tank designs, super-heavy artillery shells, proper monoplane fighters, etcetera. So if we're going to implement this research slot system, why would it (for example) include light field guns but not semi-automatic rifles? Or heavy mortars but not light field guns? Or tanks but not mortars?

Well, I think things like amphibious assault landing craft need to be researched, or superior light tanks (especially with new suspension systems), otherwise we may have players pulling developments out of their asses. I can accept that some weapon systems might be too minor to be worth researching, and I'm not about to require players to research things like "60,000+T hull frames" or "56,000hp steam turbines". But things like suspension tanks or superheavy naval shells are rather key technologies. Maybe metal-skin airframes too.

As it is, players with key new cutting edge techs could remind the mods of such in event of conflict and we can account for such when deciding success thresholds in rolls. Or just for flavor: Evincer and Zor are researching TV IIRC.

I will say this: with the Mexicans not having a Revolution to screw up production and spread of the Mondragon, it's likely we all have semi-automatic rifles or even full autos anyway, so I may remove that.

Also, as with the IBP research system this only represents projects getting government approach, the private sector will still research things. So it's not like, say, Hearts of Iron where you must research everything to get the advancement; you'll get it eventually but direct research gets it to you faster.