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 Post subject: Re: SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread PostPosted: 2009-11-10 09:52am
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I was assuming population of 100 million for Bluewolf when doing his calculations, but given the logical situation of China that was probably fairly accurate (and I'm not limiting him to the manpower pool I assigned for the calculations either), also think I assumed the same for the Shep/Lonestar states though in those cases I believe they're basically apartheid states.



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 Post subject: Re: SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread PostPosted: 2009-11-10 10:01am
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Ok. Then I will settle for a 85million population which would be more appropriate for the lands I occupy.



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 Post subject: Re: SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread PostPosted: 2009-11-14 01:09am
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I have a question for the construction queues: if I want to upgrade a division of reservists from infantry to motorized, would that be like simply making a motorized infantry division wholesale, since everything has to still be built and men have to be retrained?



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 Post subject: Re: SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread PostPosted: 2009-11-14 01:16am
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As in you want to basically make a reserve motorized division and not an active one?

I'd say that 10 IBPs/year would still be the logical consumption, but it might be lowered to 9 months cost to reflect that the reservists wouldn't be using the material as much and thus you wouldn't need as many early replacements and spare parts due to heavy use.

In fact, go ahead and consider the upgrade from taking a year to just 9 months, though said reservist unit still won't be at peak capability upon mobilization until 18 months post upgrade, reflecting the time it takes to train.

Actually, this reminds me of something I didn't avail myself of in my own construction queue. You can choose to detach a brigade's worth of experienced regulars from an active division to form an experienced cadre for a new division. Thus cuts down the time to max effectiveness by six months, but at the same time the division you draw the cadre from will take six months to return to full effectiveness due to needing to absorb replacement personnel.



”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

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 Post subject: Re: SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread PostPosted: 2009-11-19 06:31pm
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Should I assume that the rules were revised to incorporate 25,000 personnel into divisions because of the support troops? Does this addition retroactively apply to our standing military divisions as well? I would like to know so I can know if I need to revise the OrBat.

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 Post subject: Re: SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread PostPosted: 2009-11-19 07:38pm
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No, they are not. I am not imposing number-crunching on players regarding support troops. Simply presume your units have full support already allocated.

I am considering a light IBP cost per so many aircraft, men, or ships in the services, a "maintenance cost" if you will. it'd be very light comparitively; something like 1 IBP per 100,000 men, or 100,000 tons, or 100 aircraft.



”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

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 Post subject: Re: SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread PostPosted: 2009-11-19 08:36pm
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Yes, I've been looking at your proposals, and my only desire is that the maintenance costs not be reflected in Q1 budgets, because then we would have to rearrange them.

Also, would the IBP cost for armies reflect the standing army, or the entire army?

Maybe it should be a yearly expense, due by the end of Q4.

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 Post subject: Re: SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread PostPosted: 2009-11-19 08:45pm
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Well, the cost wouldn't be heavy depending what you have.

In my case, for instance, I'd have a maintenance cost of 15 IBPs for my Navy (1.5 million tonnes), 2.7 IBPs for my Army standing forces, and 1.2 IBPs for my standing Air Force, assuming I went with 1 IBP per hundred thousand tonnes, 100,000 soldiers, or 100 aircraft. Maybe 2.9-5.8 IBPs for my reserves to reflect a cost of 1 IBP per 500,000-1,000,000 reservists (very light IBP cost to represent expenditure of materials for retention training and the training of a year's draft class).

So 19.9, 22.8, or 25.7 IBPs depending on if I gave reserves a maintenance cost and how much it is.

If this seems too high, I'm willing to entertain even lower costs. However, I think it'd be a good mechanism to, say, deal with some people saying they have more IBPs than they know what to do with, and it makes one consider how much to build up your military.

Another thing to consider is if someone's proportion of standing army units to reserves gets too high they are considered moving up an SML point, and of course if you get to 50% standing in peacetime you take an economic blow (-5% IBPs).



”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

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 Post subject: Re: SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread PostPosted: 2009-11-19 11:25pm
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That's definetely not "too high" when we get hundreds of IBPs to throw around.



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 Post subject: Re: SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread PostPosted: 2009-11-19 11:39pm
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Stas Bush wrote:
That's definetely not "too high" when we get hundreds of IBPs to throw around.


Aside from Coyote we don't have anyone below a 3 in Industry I think, so the maintenance costs would be less than 10% of one's IBPs at my level... though keep in mind that while I have a big fleet, my army and air force are puny.

Anyway, will add maintenance costs to the ruleset shortly, assuming 1 IBP per 100,000 active troops, 500,000 reservists, 100,000 tonnes standard in the fleet, and 100 aircraft. Most people seem to sunk a bunch of IBPs into RP-purpose projects, they can divert as needed. I'll also permit a holiday on Q1 expenditures, so Q2 is when everyone should be reflecting maintenance costs.



”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

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 Post subject: Re: SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread PostPosted: 2009-11-19 11:44pm
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Rules update:


http://sdnworld.wikia.com/wiki/SDN_Worl ... ance_Costs



”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

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 Post subject: Re: SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread PostPosted: 2009-11-20 12:09am
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Ahem. The people's republic has industry 2.



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 Post subject: Re: SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread PostPosted: 2009-11-20 12:21am
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Steve wrote:
Anyway, will add maintenance costs to the ruleset shortly, assuming 1 IBP per 100,000 active troops, 500,000 reservists, 100,000 tonnes standard in the fleet, and 100 aircraft. Most people seem to sunk a bunch of IBPs into RP-purpose projects, they can divert as needed. I'll also permit a holiday on Q1 expenditures, so Q2 is when everyone should be reflecting maintenance costs.


Are we counting Aux Ships, Aircraft and the Floatplanes aboard non-carrier warships in these figures? I'd be looking at a cost of 26.4 Points without and 31.2 Points with the units counted. Leaves me with 1.8 free points for the next five quarters if the latter, 6.6 points if the former. (I think) My math might be off there, I'll recheck it tomorrow when I get a chance.

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 Post subject: Re: SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread PostPosted: 2009-11-20 12:57am
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The floatplanes on line warships are negligible at this scale, so don't count them. I figure the auxiliary ships are actually part of the maintenance cost, in terms of keeping them operating. Naval aircraft on carriers should, OTOH, be counted IMHO. Not that you'd have many, people should have like 40 or so at most, presuming two carriers.



”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

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 Post subject: Re: SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread PostPosted: 2009-11-20 01:06am
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Ok, I'm now tad confused.

Some people have budgeted warship construction points per quarter, i.e. say a 50KT ship, 50IBP per quarter. Are they supposed to be budgeted by the quarter or not?

Also, at the end of the 2/3 construction period, it's outfitting, so the points fall to 5% of ship costs per quarter or one off?



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 Post subject: Re: SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread PostPosted: 2009-11-20 01:20am
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I thought warships cost per quarter, every quarter, to reflect the large and long-lasting cost of construction.



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 Post subject: Re: SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread PostPosted: 2009-11-20 01:36am
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I believe they do, the only cases where my costs take up less than a year is where they are due to be completed before the years is out.



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 Post subject: Re: SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread PostPosted: 2009-11-20 02:04am
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Yes. So long as you are building a ship, it costs IBPs. When it fits out the cost is reduced by 95%.

Also, again, IBPs aren't really currency; they represent your nation's capacity for building things (be they government-supported infrastructure improvement, battleships, or tanks) due to your nation's industrial power. Whatever you're building must be at your IBP total or less than it.

The quarterly bit is basically because nearly everything takes multiples of 3 months to do, so quarters are a good way of doing construction queues with your IBPs. Thus you do a queue update every 2 weeks. Some won't even change because nothing will be complete that particular quarter.



”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

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 Post subject: Re: SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread PostPosted: 2009-11-20 09:44am
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I take it that this quarterly allotment applies to slipway construction?



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 Post subject: Re: SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread PostPosted: 2009-11-20 11:34am
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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
I take it that this quarterly allotment applies to slipway construction?


Slipway building is the same thing, you're spending the IBP cost for the duration of the construction.



”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

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 Post subject: Re: SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread PostPosted: 2009-11-20 11:40am
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Ok. One last question, do the initial limit motorized infantry brigades include motorized Artillery brigades?



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 Post subject: Re: SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread PostPosted: 2009-11-20 12:04pm
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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Ok. One last question, do the initial limit motorized infantry brigades include motorized Artillery brigades?


Yes, though I'll allow you 3 motorized arty brigades per motorized infantry brigade, reflecting needing fewer vehicles for an arty brigade than for an infantry one.



”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

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 Post subject: Re: SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread PostPosted: 2009-11-20 12:05pm
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Steve wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Ok. One last question, do the initial limit motorized infantry brigades include motorized Artillery brigades?


Yes, though I'll allow you 3 motorized arty brigades per motorized infantry brigade, reflecting needing fewer vehicles for an arty brigade than for an infantry one.


Ah... Ok. That means I can squeeze out a few more motorized artillery brigades.

BTW, would this apply to siege artillery?



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 Post subject: Re: SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread PostPosted: 2009-11-20 12:08pm
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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Steve wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Ok. One last question, do the initial limit motorized infantry brigades include motorized Artillery brigades?


Yes, though I'll allow you 3 motorized arty brigades per motorized infantry brigade, reflecting needing fewer vehicles for an arty brigade than for an infantry one.


Ah... Ok. That means I can squeeze out a few more motorized artillery brigades.

BTW, would this apply to siege artillery?


I don't think Siege Artillery can be motorized, it's mostly railroad guns and such.



”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

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 Post subject: Re: SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread PostPosted: 2009-11-20 12:46pm
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I've edited the Industrial rules slightly to make clear what IBPs are:
http://sdnworld.wikia.com/wiki/SDN_Worl ... t#Industry

No more "per quarter" marker, because IBPs are not a currency, they are a reflect of capacity. The government-directed projects and production that your country's industries can support.

For example, you have 3/3 in Ind and Econ and thus 300 IBPs. You spend 100 IBPs each in Navy, Army, and Air Force. This is not a case where every quarter you go and spend 100 more IBPs for these items. Rather, so long as those Navy, Army, and Air Force things are building, they count against your cap of 300 IBPs.

Quarterly queue updates are simply to keep track of how you're using your IBP allotment, especially since most things are finished in multiples of 3 months, so you can use these queue updates to reflect something is done and then spend the freed up IBPs for something else.

Sometimes your queue update will simply be seeing nothing was completed at the start of that quarter, changing the header of the queue from "Quarter 1 1926" to "Quarter 2 1926", and clicking "submit".

Any questions?



”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

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