SDN World 3 Country Claiming

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Re: SDN World 3 Country Claiming

Post by Bluewolf » 2009-10-29 05:28pm

Not really but please be aware that A. It is a very sparse country with very backwards people. B. That the said country is landlocked iirc. C. It is bordered by two large powers.

But if you want it. :)

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Re: SDN World 3 Country Claiming

Post by Lascaris » 2009-10-29 06:46pm

Steve wrote:Go ahead and put that in population so you can have 50-75M, Las. I'm not enforcing strict historical populations.
Ok if I understand the rules correctly to have 75 million you need a territory of 600,000 square km. I have 377,000 after a certain Norse decided to keep Parana. While if one assumes European population densities this would be sufficient for 75 million (after all former West Germany had 63 million in 248,000 square km and Italy 57 million in about 300,000) doing so would mean making an exception to the rules to allow Cisplatina to have population 3 with territory 2. If that is considered acceptable then Cisplatine point distribution will be as follows:

Population: 3
Home Territory: 2
Colonial Territory: 0
Industry: 4
Economy: 4
Infrastracture: 5
Standing Military: 3
Naval Focus: 4 (+2 from industry)
Army Focus: 4
Air Focus: 3

If it's not acceptable I'll stick to the original distribution and Brazil can live with the slight disparity in military power. :twisted:

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Re: SDN World 3 Country Claiming

Post by Norseman » 2009-10-29 06:54pm

That rule I think is there for a very good reason, to prevent European levels of population in states that by all reason should be far more sparsely populated. Also the game balance for me is utterly screwed up if I can't have at least population *parity* with the countries south of me, I was already worried about the Argentines.

Also wait a second! You can't have Industry 4, your population + land area + infrastructure is only 9 or 10, you need *12* for Industry 4. That means your Navy Focus can also only be 3.
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Re: SDN World 3 Country Claiming

Post by Lascaris » 2009-10-29 08:09pm

Norseman wrote:That rule I think is there for a very good reason, to prevent European levels of population in states that by all reason should be far more sparsely populated. Also the game balance for me is utterly screwed up if I can't have at least population *parity* with the countries south of me, I was already worried about the Argentines.

Also wait a second! You can't have Industry 4, your population + land area + infrastructure is only 9 or 10, you need *12* for Industry 4. That means your Navy Focus can also only be 3.
Tsk tsk tsk. Careful reading of the rules tells us that the factors affecting industry are the combination of population, infrastructure, economy and colonial possession. Deep mathematics like adding these together give us 3+5+4+0=12

Now that we have solved this little bit of a problem and since it's 1925 shall I claim Marie Byrd Land for a colony? :mrgreen:

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Re: SDN World 3 Country Claiming

Post by Steve » 2009-10-29 09:06pm

We have a different thread for points listing, Lasc. And I'm not predisposed to letting you slide on the issue of population limits by rule. That said, If you can coax another 250,000 square kms out of Norse that will change.
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Re: SDN World 3 Country Claiming

Post by Akhlut » 2009-10-29 11:06pm

Bluewolf wrote:Not really but please be aware that A. It is a very sparse country with very backwards people. B. That the said country is landlocked iirc. C. It is bordered by two large powers.

But if you want it. :)

Considering the fact that I'd have 30 points and can't spend it on either naval power or colonies and a max of about 3 points for area (it's only about 600,000 sq miles), I'm pretty much locked into a large population with decent infrastructure and a good economy. :lol: I'm going to handwave it away with European capitalists moving in after the discovery of good ores in the northern mountains and a decent supply of petroleum. I'll figure it out from there after seeing what else is going on in the world.

Also, I'm hoping that armed Mongols will at least keep the Chinese and Ruskies out if they're bickering with each other. I'm also hoping for whacky diplomacy to be effective. :lol:
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Re: SDN World 3 Country Claiming

Post by Steve » 2009-10-29 11:10pm

Akhlut wrote:
Bluewolf wrote:Not really but please be aware that A. It is a very sparse country with very backwards people. B. That the said country is landlocked iirc. C. It is bordered by two large powers.

But if you want it. :)

Considering the fact that I'd have 30 points and can't spend it on either naval power or colonies and a max of about 3 points for area (it's only about 600,000 sq miles), I'm pretty much locked into a large population with decent infrastructure and a good economy. :lol: I'm going to handwave it away with European capitalists moving in after the discovery of good ores in the northern mountains and a decent supply of petroleum. I'll figure it out from there after seeing what else is going on in the world.

Also, I'm hoping that armed Mongols will at least keep the Chinese and Ruskies out if they're bickering with each other. I'm also hoping for whacky diplomacy to be effective. :lol:
Hrm. It strains my suspension of disbelief, but if I hear no severe complaints I won't object.
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Re: SDN World 3 Country Claiming

Post by CmdrWilkens » 2009-10-30 12:53am

Steve wrote:
Akhlut wrote:
Bluewolf wrote:Not really but please be aware that A. It is a very sparse country with very backwards people. B. That the said country is landlocked iirc. C. It is bordered by two large powers.

But if you want it. :)

Considering the fact that I'd have 30 points and can't spend it on either naval power or colonies and a max of about 3 points for area (it's only about 600,000 sq miles), I'm pretty much locked into a large population with decent infrastructure and a good economy. :lol: I'm going to handwave it away with European capitalists moving in after the discovery of good ores in the northern mountains and a decent supply of petroleum. I'll figure it out from there after seeing what else is going on in the world.

Also, I'm hoping that armed Mongols will at least keep the Chinese and Ruskies out if they're bickering with each other. I'm also hoping for whacky diplomacy to be effective. :lol:
Hrm. It strains my suspension of disbelief, but if I hear no severe complaints I won't object.
The land just won't support that level of population. The vast majority is barren desert that is wind swept and rocky unsuitable, even with irrigation, for any type of agriculture. Now that said unless I'm missing something the land area is close to 1.6mil km^2 [3 is 600k and 4 is 2mil] which could probably be squeezed to a 4 if we wanted to be generous there rather than in population. Put another way I think the grant of a point in territory is more acceptable than allowing for a ridiculously over populated country based on its arable land.


If I'm running points correctly you could do this:

HomeT: 4
ColonialT: 0
Population: 2
Infrastructure: 4
SML: 4 [-1 econ]
Economy 4 [5pts -1 for SML]
Industry: 3
Navy: 0
Army: 5 [4pts +1 for Industry]
Air: 4
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Re: SDN World 3 Country Claiming

Post by K. A. Pital » 2009-10-30 01:26am

I don't object to a more powerful independent Mongolia. Wilkens' calculations make sense, and overpopulating an area geographically badly suited shouldn't be the solution.
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Re: SDN World 3 Country Claiming

Post by Norseman » 2009-10-30 01:42am

Stas Bush wrote:I don't object to a more powerful independent Mongolia. Wilkens' calculations make sense, and overpopulating an area geographically badly suited shouldn't be the solution.
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Re: SDN World 3 Country Claiming

Post by Akhlut » 2009-10-30 09:34am

That point spread from Wilkins is pretty close to what I set up, though I had one more in population, and one less in economy and standing army, but, eh. I was rationalizing the population by Mongolia trading resources for food to China and Russia if they were cool with it. However, I could agree with this one too.

Anyway, the points as I calculated them and if anyone has any objections, please let me know:
Population 3
Home Territory 4
Colonial Territory 0
Industry 3
Economy 4
Infrastructure 4
Standing Military Limit 3
Naval Focus 0
Army Focus 5
Air Focus 3 (2+1)

As I said, the only way I can justify Pop3 is by extensive imports of grain and raising a lot of camels, sheep, and horses. If everyone thinks 2 is as high as I can go, though, I can agree with that.
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Re: SDN World 3 Country Claiming

Post by Steve » 2009-10-30 10:37am

Go ahead and post your point spread in the thread for it, helps keep track of everyone's point spending.
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Re: SDN World 3 Country Claiming

Post by CmdrWilkens » 2009-10-30 05:55pm

I really think the Pop=3 is too a historical other than that I think you would be fine.
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Re: SDN World 3 Country Claiming

Post by Dark Hellion » 2009-10-30 07:52pm

With the way the current rules are set up, pop 3 is pretty much utterly necessary to actually get a good economy going, which is a bit ahistoric in itself as plenty of countries had less than 75 million people but were heavily industrialized by 1925. Personally, I think we should make 4s in industry and economy require 2 pop instead of 3. This makes it easier to make European countries without having the ahistoric populations that keep popping up.
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Re: SDN World 3 Country Claiming

Post by Alfred Thayer Mahan » 2009-10-30 10:35pm

*sighs*

It is with great regret that I must announce my withdrawal from this sim; I apologize first for not being around for the past week, but due to an unexpected promotion at work resulting in greatly increased responsibility and therefore an unexpected *decrease* in my free time (BOOOO!), I simply won't have time to commit to give my nation the attention it deserves. I've discussed this with Steve, and am therefore withdrawing.

Which is really too bad, because I wanted to discuss some matters with my German and Russian neighbors, but such was not to be (on the friendliest of terms, of course). I wish you all the best of luck!
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Re: SDN World 3 Country Claiming

Post by DarthShady » 2009-10-31 06:38am

What's all this talk about being ahistoric? Come on guys, this is a game not an alt history exercise. You will have to get used to the fact that some things( a lot of them), will strain your SOD greatly. But that is to be expected, this is a game after all.

I feel it is unfair that some players should be at a disadvantage just because certain things are ahistoric.

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Re: SDN World 3 Country Claiming

Post by Norseman » 2009-10-31 06:55am

Indeed, I for one would be happy with a more populous Chilentina, but that said who will take Scandinavia? Lascaris perhaps?
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Re: SDN World 3 Country Claiming

Post by Lascaris » 2009-10-31 07:32am

Norseman wrote:Indeed, I for one would be happy with a more populous Chilentina, but that said who will take Scandinavia? Lascaris perhaps?
Nah. I'll stick to being your armed to the teeth neighbour with the strongest standing army and air force in south America. :P

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Re: SDN World 3 Country Claiming

Post by CmdrWilkens » 2009-10-31 10:11pm

DarthShady wrote:What's all this talk about being ahistoric? Come on guys, this is a game not an alt history exercise. You will have to get used to the fact that some things( a lot of them), will strain your SOD greatly. But that is to be expected, this is a game after all.

I feel it is unfair that some players should be at a disadvantage just because certain things are ahistoric.
There is understandable alt history and then there is fantasy alt history. Mongolia today supports a population of 2 million (give or take) and likely with the resource on hand couldn't support more than twice that number...allowing for 20 times that number is already straining the edges of credulity to their breaking point and that would be a pop=2. You would have to multiply the existing population by 37 times to get to pop=3 and it just doesn't make sense.

Now that said eliminating or editing the population requirement from the Industry field may be worth considering.
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Re: SDN World 3 Country Claiming

Post by Raj Ahten » 2009-11-01 01:19am

Just a heads up for the other players: I'm going on a business trip until Wednesday and will be unable to post until then. The reason for that is I'm going deep into the mountains where there is no cell reception let alone anything else.

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Re: SDN World 3 Country Claiming

Post by Steve » 2009-11-01 02:36am

CmdrWilkens wrote:
DarthShady wrote:What's all this talk about being ahistoric? Come on guys, this is a game not an alt history exercise. You will have to get used to the fact that some things( a lot of them), will strain your SOD greatly. But that is to be expected, this is a game after all.

I feel it is unfair that some players should be at a disadvantage just because certain things are ahistoric.
There is understandable alt history and then there is fantasy alt history. Mongolia today supports a population of 2 million (give or take) and likely with the resource on hand couldn't support more than twice that number...allowing for 20 times that number is already straining the edges of credulity to their breaking point and that would be a pop=2. You would have to multiply the existing population by 37 times to get to pop=3 and it just doesn't make sense.

Now that said eliminating or editing the population requirement from the Industry field may be worth considering.
Eliminating it may be a bit much - you need a workforce after all, but I'm open to reducing it and/or confirming that bonuses from CT apply, at least partially (Stas has raised the question of such bonuses not being applicable, I think they should, but for gameplay balance I'm willing to say that only 1 bonus point would count - IOW, I could not meet the minimum for industry at 4 or 5 with a 1 point expenditure + 2 CT, but if I put a point in population for 2 + 2, I could).
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Re: SDN World 3 Country Claiming

Post by Steve » 2009-11-01 02:40am

What was the population of Britain circa 1925? Because certainly Britain was a 5 in Industry and today their population is 50-60 million, IOW, 2 point expenditure.

A minimum of 2 for the highest Industrial levels makes sense, since you'd still have to spend 13 more points in Econ, Territory, and Infra to get a 5 in Industry, 10 more points to get a 4.

Any objections?
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American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

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Re: SDN World 3 Country Claiming

Post by CmdrWilkens » 2009-11-01 10:29am

The WW1 population of the British Isles, Ireland included, was on the order of 45 million. It was still depleted by its losses in the 1920s but it would likely not be over a 2 in population.
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Re: SDN World 3 Country Claiming

Post by Steve » 2009-11-01 10:32am

CmdrWilkens wrote:The WW1 population of the British Isles, Ireland included, was on the order of 45 million. It was still depleted by its losses in the 1920s but it would likely not be over a 2 in population.
Given a 2 is 50M and a 3 is 75, yeah.

Anyway. Rules Discussion in the rules thread? I included a quick, simple mechanic for emulating lack of yard use.
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American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

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Re: SDN World 3 Country Claiming

Post by Beowulf » 2009-11-01 03:33pm

N/M
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