2014 STGOD OOC Commentary Thread 1

[Siege]

Anyone have any objection to bumping forward into March?

None here. We might have to work out some kind of general time progression, perhaps one or two weeks IRL equals a month of game time.

[Simon_Jester]

In my opinion, one week is too short (that may only be time for one or two back-and-forth cycles of posts for people who write relatively slowly), but two weeks is probably too long. How does ten days sound?

[Also, I think it might be good to keep this negotiable; if something really interesting happens we'll want to devote proper time to it]

[Thanas]

two weeks would be preferable to me, easier to plan and to keep track of.

[Thanas]

BTW Beo, how is such a suit going to work without a WTO present, which means sovereign privilege applies and as such states might be subject to sanctions, but not lawsuits?

[Beowulf]

BTW Beo, how is such a suit going to work without a WTO present, which means sovereign privilege applies and as such states might be subject to sanctions, but not lawsuits?

Why would a lawsuit require a WTO to be present? Many nations have laws waiving sovereign immunity for the state, even if the King retains it. See wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity . Most nations that waive immunity do so for torts and contract violations. Retaining immunity for violation of explicit or implicit contracts is a business hostile thing to do. Nothing really prevents such countries from keeping the cash after someone delivers the goods (except for threat of sanctions). And sanctions don't work so well for businesses that are stateless, or are based in the nation.

[Simon_Jester]

Yes.

Most nations that want to participate meaningfully in international trade will make it possible to sue their citizens (and government agencies) in their own courts if there's a tort issue at stake. The alternative is, well, what I described as the "HARD POWER fetishist" mindset. Which is idiotic because in real life, having guns doesn't mean you automatically get to ignore rules.

I mean, would the Rhenisch shipyard have been comfortable proposing to enter into a multibillion dollar contract with a nation that could theoretically engage in all sorts of legal shenanigans and leave them with no recourse? This isn't the Dark Ages, with kings borrowing from Jewish moneylenders then staging pogroms to drive them out of the country so they can avoid paying their debts.

[Siege]

In my opinion, one week is too short (that may only be time for one or two back-and-forth cycles of posts for people who write relatively slowly), but two weeks is probably too long. How does ten days sound?

Ten day turnovers are much more difficult to keep track of than 'every other Saturday'. I prefer a solution that doesn't require planning the game out in my agenda. Then we might as well keep it flexible anyway.

[Thanas]

I mean, would the Rhenisch shipyard have been comfortable proposing to enter into a multibillion dollar contract with a nation that could theoretically engage in all sorts of legal shenanigans and leave them with no recourse?

The Rhenish state guarantees businesses doing business with other nations, just like Germany does for its export companies. In short, Rheinland pays the shipyards, then makes sure it gets the money back. The companies make the contract, but financial things are discussed between states (this is also the source of some of Germany holding debt by nations - they owe money for goods delivered. So yes, the companies would be happy to do business as they are not taking the risk of not getting paid. And there are not a lot of nations that have the clout to screw us over in the first place, so this works very well for us.

And surprisingly, most nations managed to do business with each other very well before WTO-like organizations. That is because surprise, most of those contracts are only fulfilled once the payment has been made and because everybody actually wants something from another.

[Simon_Jester]

In my opinion, one week is too short (that may only be time for one or two back-and-forth cycles of posts for people who write relatively slowly), but two weeks is probably too long. How does ten days sound?

Ten day turnovers are much more difficult to keep track of than 'every other Saturday'. I prefer a solution that doesn't require planning the game out in my agenda. Then we might as well keep it flexible anyway.

Sorry. For me it wouldn't seem much harder, but I have a really weird ming.

I mean, would the Rhenisch shipyard have been comfortable proposing to enter into a multibillion dollar contract with a nation that could theoretically engage in all sorts of legal shenanigans and leave them with no recourse?

The Rhenish state guarantees businesses doing business with other nations, just like Germany does for its export companies. In short, Rheinland pays the shipyards, then makes sure it gets the money back. The companies make the contract, but financial things are discussed between states (this is also the source of some of Germany holding debt by nations - they owe money for goods delivered. So yes, the companies would be happy to do business as they are not taking the risk of not getting paid. And there are not a lot of nations that have the clout to screw us over in the first place, so this works very well for us.

And surprisingly, most nations managed to do business with each other very well before WTO-like organizations. That is because surprise, most of those contracts are only fulfilled once the payment has been made and because everybody actually wants something from another.

I think this kind of misses my point. For one, there are issues at stake other than whether or not you get paid for the contract as a whole- there are many grounds for lawsuits and "you didn't pay for the stuff we were going to give you" is only one of them.

And while the Rhenisch/German government can act as ultimate guarantor of the company's interests in this situation if it chooses, there will be a lot of situations that may be beneath its notice. Or where the government might choose not to get involved.

So there's still at least some desire for a company to have some recourse against a foreign government if it feels abused, other than begging for help from its own nation's foreign ministry.

The same argument applies to foreign private citizens- if I visit France, and am financially harmed on French soil by a private citizen or company, then what recourse do I have? Do I have to go to the State Department and ask them to bully France (unlikely to work?) Or will the French, being a basically law-abiding nation, allow me to sue in their court system to redress the wrong?

It seems very natural to allow lawsuits by foreigners to proceed against your own citizens and companies. That way, at least you can ensure that the suits do proceed in your own courts, rather than having some other country more or less try you in absentia and decide you owe their people X million dollars. And you can also ensure that you aren't constantly getting bloodcurdling threats of sanctions or embargoes from your own trading partner-nations.
___________________________________

Now, I recognize that you're a lawyer, so if you're basing this on an argument you have so far not represented that justifies your position very well, I'd appreciate hearing it simply stated.*

I mean, historically was it the case that as a matter of common practice, foreign citizens were ruled to lack standing to sue in a nation's courts?

*Irrelevant footnote: Spoiler

I just lost an argument with a friend last night because I misremembered something, and she corrected me after a few rounds of "I would have done this," "No you wouldn't," "Yeah I would..." when I'd said "I wouldn't" at the time and forgotten about it later. Boy was my face red.

I was very grateful that my friend was willing to, y'know, tell me the thing I misremembered rather than getting mad at me for not remembering it or berating me for being so wrongheaded and ignorant. It's a good way to behave and part of why I like her.

So basically, sometimes I'm objectively wrong about something because of a basic fact I didn't know, or didn't remember. It happens. And I appreciate people being forthright enough to alert me to the fact rather than just dismissing and despising me without bothering to tell me why.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

So I've jump through the hoops of 20++ hours of flying and now I'm in Florida! So now, I operate on US Eastern Time (Again!).

[Simon_Jester]

Hey, Thanas, question-

What would have been the post-WWII status of minor Britonian colonial possessions? Say, the equivalent of the Falkland Islands, where there's a foreign country (Argentina) that presses a claim to the islands but was unable to do anything about it during the war, and was neutral in the war.

Would they have been made into Rhenisch protectorates? Or would there have been a realistic and viable process by which the claimant could get them back?

[Steve]

So I've jump through the hoops of 20++ hours of flying and now I'm in Florida! So now, I operate on US Eastern Time (Again!).

Welcome to my Hell.

[The Romulan Republic]

I may be out of touch for several days later this month (specifically the 11th.-the 15th.).

[madd0ct0r]

I'll just leave this here for now:

http://imgur.com/a/pFev3#0

[Simon_Jester]

Maddoctor, it has occurred to me that you are literally almost the IDEAL person to help me with some problems I'm having finishing up a story post from the point of view of senior Umerian leadership. Do you have a gmail account and/or (ideally) an AIM account?

EDIT: If so, PM me please...

EDIT II: Wait, crap, I already have your gmail account.

[Steve]

Still waiting on Thanas to continue that "never intended invitation" bit. A shame he's too busy.

Alright boys, looks like it's time t' get some o' that there whale meat! WHOO HOO! *fills the oceans with the fresh blood of baby whales*

Step 1 in my nefarious plan to TAKE OVER THE WORLD!

(Note: IC Cascadia is anti-whale hunting. I'm just jerking Thanas' chain. It was either "hunt whales", "partition Germany", or "mock the Baltimore Ravens". The spinner landed on the first.)

[Simon_Jester]

I still think the Umerian government would start hunting cetacean-eating orcas with antisubmarine warfare equipment if it ever concluded that the dolphins and whales they prey on were sentient. Of course, it would also be busily trying to figure out how to issue a passport to a whale.

I'm slowly working on a post of my own but I've had some moderately heinous stuff happening to me lately that's screwing up my concentration and ability to write. Right now what I most urgently need is a consultant on civil engineering and railway design, which is why I paged maddoc a few lines ago.

[Steve]

Of course, if the orcas are sentient too....

[Esquire]

Hunting isn't the answer, showtrials are. Make those murderous fish answer for their misdeeds in a court of law!

[madd0ct0r]

You paged me, but I'm still waiting for the email

[madd0ct0r]

and I've marked up my thoughts. For those of a paranoid nature, this is not a warr plot, but me going into more detail then you ever wnat to know about the affect fo freight train loads on bridges.

[Simon_Jester]

Thanks. I deleted some bits of your comments that I had read and assimilated (this may have been a faux pas, sorry), added a few bits to my own writing, and responded to some of your quotes. I'd been meaning to do more, but the endless stream of important diversions that interrupt my creative flow continues, although at least now it's good things happening and not bad things.

[madd0ct0r]

makes sense. I've drawn a rough map and stuck it in. not strictly required, but it'll help us figure out out relative distances.

[Simon_Jester]

I'm going out of town for 3-4 days. This may not actually impact my online presence much and I might even finally finish that story post I've been stuck on while all the crazy aargh bullshit happened to me over the past two weeks. But I just wanted to say.

Also, if a meteor blows up Erie, Pennsylvania, I hereby appoint TimothyC as vice-player of Umeria.

[I'm pretty sure I was joking in that last line]

[Steve]

And so Al Harris' refusal to sacrifice on his anti-Rhenish views eliminates his party's shot at an ouright majority. Now to see what coalitions form and what it means for that poor nation...