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Czechmate wrote:

DarthShady wrote:Now that we have settled on a time period, I would say it's time to move on to other decisions. Such as the Mod issue, whether we want new ones? How many we want? I would suggest two additional ones, and Steve. And also, I think it's time we start claiming countries.

Slow down. At the moment we're still trying too finish all the fiddly bits of the ruleset. Also, you have (by default) Steve as senior mod and myself as rules mod, given that I made most of it and only I truly understand its' arcane secrets ( ). If you want other mods, you can vote on them after claiming is done (because mods don't get any more points to build their stuff and put into territory than anyone else), which won't even start until friday evening (EST).

I'll wait for the rules to be done, although I do have a problem with your self-appointment to mod. While I do appreciate the work you have done/are doing, you haven't exactly showed yourself to be a reasonable player in the past. I would much prefer it if the two additional mods were chosen by majority vote. If we go with the three Mods approach, nobody said anything about that.

What do the rest of you guys think, three mods or just Steve?

Shall we assume you're going to be in the Balkans? Perhaps some sort of Austro-Hungarian Empire analogue?

Balkans, Yes. Austro-Hungarian Empire, No. I have some ideas, but it's still too early to reveal them.

DarthShady wrote:I'll wait for the rules to be done, although I do have a problem with your self-appointment to mod. While I do appreciate the work you have done/are doing, you haven't exactly showed yourself to be a reasonable player in the past. I would much prefer it if the two additional mods were chosen by majority vote. If we go with the three Mods approach, nobody said anything about that.

Self-appointment? It's been Steve and I doing all the work of putting this together. I've been quite reasonable in designing a game system for you and helping Steve deal with things, Shady. Leave the shit from SDNW2 in SDNW2. It is absolutely not welcome here.

All I want is my due and to remain the final say on anything pertaining to the rules system I created because I understand it better than any of you, including Steve. I don't have a problem with you, and I certainly have been intent on leaving the past in the bin where it belongs and treating everyone just as I would if I'd never played with them before, so perhaps you should consider dropping your misconceptions about me as well.

Incidentally, I'm all for voting in (an) extra mod(s). Perhaps they can specialize in working out results of combat engagements or keeping ship designs realistic or something useful of that sort.

DarthShady wrote:What do the rest of you guys think, three mods or just Steve?

I do like multiple mods. For one thing, it lets Steve recuse himself when a situation involves him. Now personally, I trust Steve to be impartial, but it does look better if you recuse yourself when it comes to your own self-interest.

Plus, if Steve is inactive for a week or whatever because of RL concerns, the other mod(s) can step up and we don't have to wait forever.

DarthShady wrote:Balkans, Yes. Austro-Hungarian Empire, No. I have some ideas, but it's still too early to reveal them.

You're not going to be Stas' bitch puppet again, are you?

Czexh has not expressed anything that leads me to conclude that he would be a good mod. I am all in favor of Steve and Shep Shady anyone else being mod.

Lonestar wrote:Czexh has not expressed anything that leads me to conclude that he would be a good mod. I am all in favor of Steve and Shep Shady anyone else being mod.

You do realize that Steve and I both go over everything we do with the other? That I will, in fact, be supervised by Steve?

That if you don't like the idea of me keeping track of the rules I made for you people because I know them better than anyone else, you don't have to play?

Perhaps if you take these things into account you (and others) will reconsider your attitude toward this matter.

I'm pretty disappointed in you guys for making such ignorant statements. I thought you people were better than this.

Czechmate wrote:
You do realize that Steve and I both go over everything we do with the other? That I will, in fact, be supervised by Steve?

That if you don't like the idea of me keeping track of the rules I made for you people because I know them better than anyone else, you don't have to play?

Perhaps if you take these things into account you (and others) will reconsider your attitude toward this matter.

I'm pretty disappointed in you guys for making such ignorant statements. I thought you people were better than this.

Fantastic. I still don't want you to be a mod. And no one made you mod, either by consensus(like Steve) or by Vote. You just appointed yourself.

Lonestar wrote:Fantastic. I still don't want you to be a mod. And no one made you mod, either by consensus(like Steve) or by Vote. You just appointed yourself.

Traditionally in forum games, he who makes the game's ruleset and does all the work of setting it up is the mod. So you're absolutely right, I appointed myself. And I did it because I've put the work in and only Steve, the senior mod that I voluntarily answer to, has done the same. While many potential players have been perfectly gracious about the situation, like Siege and Shinn and Baerne and others, you and Shady haven't done a blessed thing except bitch and moan about me.

Therefore, my status will be put to a decision by Steve and no one else, because none of you save Steve has earned the right to make that choice by putting the work into making this game.

Czechmate wrote: Traditionally in forum games, he who makes the game's ruleset and does all the work of setting it up is the mod. So you're absolutely right, I appointed myself. And I did it because I've put the work in and only Steve, the senior mod that I voluntarily answer to, has done the same. While many potential players have been perfectly gracious about the situation, like Siege and Shinn and Baerne and others, you and Shady haven't done a blessed thing except bitch and moan about me.

I would hazard to say that's because I work over 40 hours a week and go to school 4 nights a week, so we don't have the free time to purview and crank out those numbers.

I'd further add that "Traditionally" in the SDN World series games the rulesmakers DO NOT act as mods. Zor wasn't mod, and neither was Beowulf. So go pound sand.

Therefore, my status will be put to a decision by Steve and no one else, because none of you save Steve has earned the right to make that choice by putting the work into making this game.

I absolutely will not follow any instruction from you in a moderator capacity, barring a vote.

I agree with Rogue Ice's idea of assumed competence in the design of appropriate orbats and such for people. That will hep out immensely in making the world a more believable and balanced place as the experts can poke holes in things before they become a major issue. That said the process will probably work best in an informal manner rather than saying everyone's orbat MUST pass a vote or something. Otherwise this game is likely to acquire too many layers of bureaucracy and cease being fun. I stand by my opinion that the free form storytelling based approach has been the secret of SD.net Worlds success.

Czechmate wrote:Leave the shit from SDNW2 in SDNW2. It is absolutely not welcome here.

Yes, well, that's a nice idea in theory, but you and I both know it doesn't work that way. I like to think of myself as someone not inclined to hold grudges, particularly not over something as trivial as a free-form RPG on the Internet, but even I can't deny that I'll inevitably be more suspicious of the activities of some people due to the antics they were up to in the previous game. To give an example: is there anyone here who does not suspect that Sheppard will try some creative powergaming in terms of obscure weapons systems and/or WMDs?

We can all endeavour to leave the past be, and not immediately continue old grudges in the new game; this is an admirable sentiment which I can only endorse. But you're a fool if you think that past offenses won't be on people's minds when they judge present actions. That's just the way the world works. The best we can hope for is that it'll stay an exclusively OOC affair. If that's not good enough for you then that's just tough: to quote old Ben, it takes many good deeds to build a good reputation, and only one bad one to lose it.

Now, to make matters perfectly clear, I myself have no issue with you being a 'rules mod' (whatever that position might entail precisely). I do however think that to believe people will just leave their preconceptions at the door and go into this third iteration of the game like the past never happened is the height of folly. They'll never do that, and in fact probably can't even if they wanted to.

Siege wrote:Likewise for the ridiculous 80,000+ tonne amphibious assault carriers they kept unveiling near the end of the game; we CATO members rationalized it as "there's no conceivable defensive use for them, so they MUST BE designed to invade shit". No-one ever deigned to give any rational purpose for those ships.

Nobody asked. They just railed, in what was easily dismissed as more CATO ranting. There's little conceivable defensive use for any sort of carrier. They are inherently power projection tools. Also, your phrasing implies there was more than one, when the one that has been built, still isn't in commission. At this stage of the game, however, the Tian Xia amphib force primarily exists for two reason: to uphold MESS commitments, and for pressing an opposed landing in Tian Jiao. The Justice is the size it is because of the flight deck. The flight deck is the size it is due to a desire to conduct both rotary and fixed wing operations simultaneously, and that same size allows it to effectively subdivide the ship into two halves, for that purpose. After that, steel is cheap, so it's not actually all that much more expensive to add in the second parallel well deck. And given that, the ship grows to being really, really big.

However, even with my entire 'phib force at sea that would be feasible (~6 LHA/LHDs, 6 LPDs), that still only gives a bit more than a division. How many divisions of troops did you have? Do you really think I would be invading any CATO member? How many invasions did I undertake? Two: Shepistan, which was widely thought to be a good idea, and Mortimer's Claim, which was and is a third world area, without much of anything that directly stand against me. Oh, and the second was a land invasion, rather than an amphibious operation.

It's intentional, isn't it? You people wait for me to be in bed before you decide to have drama. I'm on to you!

Talking with Bluewolf this morning before I headed off to sleep did make me consider that instead of "first come first serve" we let everyone lay out their desired claims, then we reconcile everything as best as possible.

OrBat wise I believe we should do preliminaries and then let everyone discuss them. Especially because, as stated, RL countries don't draw up their forces in a vacuum. They monitor potential enemies and rivals and try to match their capabilities. Hence the Royal Navy and US Navy making construction plans against each other in 1920, or the RAF initially using France as the basis for their force in that same decade.

This, for instance, is why the Japanese actually erected a large covering for the slipway where they were building one of their capital ships, one of the Yamato-class ones IIRC.

As for the mod issue, when you consider lots of other games - not necessarily all on SDN - then the maker of the rules usually has a seat at the mod table. That said, I'm well aware that Czech is rather unproven to the majority of the players. I was going to ask that he be accepted specifically as rules mod in recognition of the fact that he, y'know, created the base ruleset. If you're worried he'd be given authority over you as a player, that wasn't going to happen; I'd be the one in charge.

Anyway, assuming no bridges have been burnt beyond repair, I hope to get the basic rules hammered out enough tonight and tomorrow that sometime Friday night I can post the claim thread.

Lonestar wrote:

Czechmate wrote: Traditionally in forum games, he who makes the game's ruleset and does all the work of setting it up is the mod. So you're absolutely right, I appointed myself. And I did it because I've put the work in and only Steve, the senior mod that I voluntarily answer to, has done the same. While many potential players have been perfectly gracious about the situation, like Siege and Shinn and Baerne and others, you and Shady haven't done a blessed thing except bitch and moan about me.

I would hazard to say that's because I work over 40 hours a week and go to school 4 nights a week, so we don't have the free time to purview and crank out those numbers.

I'd further add that "Traditionally" in the SDN World series games the rulesmakers DO NOT act as mods. Zor wasn't mod, and neither was Beowulf. So go pound sand.

Adding to this neither PeZook nor I were made mods for the work done on Spacecraft and associated space race systems. Likewise I did the work I did on the proposed naval construction system not because I thought I shoudl mod the game but because I saw a need for a more structured system and created one subject to the adjustments of others.

Putting things in a slightly different tone than Matt did let me say this: Making rules doesn't make you a mod nor should it. I garuntee you that tomorrow when I've got close to 5 hours of flight time plus layovers I could easily generate the bones of a system for the 1925 start and by sometime next week after a couple hour long train rides have a fully fleshed system. I'm not doing it mostly because I think its better to tinker with your proposed system than invest my time, which is already strained by a newborn, in doing the above. So in summation you've done nothing that a half dozen other guys in this STGOD couldn't do and noneof them have been made game mod. STGOD game mods from the time of ASVS onwards have almost always been SOLELY those persons whom the rest of the players trust to make impartial decisions. I think I can speak bluntly that everyone here trusts Steve to be able to judge impartially and very few trust you to be able to do so.

I don't have a problem with Czech as mod. Even with power over players, he'd be, at worst, one voice of three (or however many we have).

Nonetheless though, I think as a 'rules mod' he would do fine. At the start, before things got reshuffled because of inactivity, Thanas began SDN Wars as a purely 'Economics' Mod. That meant, in theory, he could only mod on stuff concernign OOBs and whether or not they violated the rules set. That has since changed of course and he's a full game mod, but I view Czech being 'rules mod' as rather the same: he put in the effort to make the rules (and Thanas really helped a lot in that regard at SDN Wars) so he does tend to know it better than anyone else. So him making judgements on whether an OOB or something violates the rules makes sense. That doesn't mean he can say, "Oh no you can't invade Country X!" or anything (that would be the job of Steve and whoever else is a game mod). But he could say, "Uh dude, you're giving yourself too many Navy building points for your given Navy Focus score" or something like that.

I personally don't see how that's such a big deal.

Beowulf wrote:Nobody asked. They just railed, in what was easily dismissed as more CATO ranting. There's little conceivable defensive use for any sort of carrier.

Soviet carrier evolution was an attempt to create auxillary carriers that would help taskforces survive an onslaught of far superior enemy.

Beowulf wrote:They are inherently power projection tools.

That depends solely on the strategical situation, but more often than not they are.

Beowulf wrote:At this stage of the game, however, the Tian Xia amphib force primarily exists for two reason: to uphold MESS commitments

Of which there are none, and none of the MESS "commitments" frankly make any sense to me given you all are hyper-powered Empires.

Beowulf wrote:and for pressing an opposed landing in Tian Jiao

Who is going to land in Tian Jiao? Oh noes, Crimson attack through Livorno to get a patch of worthless colonial land! *laughs*

Beowulf wrote:However, even with my entire 'phib force at sea that would be feasible (~6 LHA/LHDs, 6 LPDs), that still only gives a bit more than a division. How many divisions of troops did you have? Do you really think I would be invading any CATO member?

The Frequesue ones like Baerne, Siege or Miratia? Easy as hell. You could invade anyone. And the AFSR, for that matter.

Beowulf wrote:How many invasions did I undertake? Two: Shepistan, which was widely thought to be a good idea, and Mortimer's Claim, which was and is a third world area, without much of anything that directly stand against me. Oh, and the second was a land invasion, rather than an amphibious operation.

You've done invasions in Frequesue, abolished sovereignity of a former colony without much thought, established military outposts of your own will and continously engaged in military provocations against Frequesuan nations which are aligned or in fact entered the CATO, as well as upholding OD provocations (the OD which has FUCK NOTHING on Frequesue and should've stood out of the continent period, there's nothing for Lonestar to do there at all). That's some grounds to think nothing particulary good is on your mind when it comes to us. And you guys were asking why the hell did all those Frequesuan nations suddenly ran to CATO? That's fun.

Stas Bush wrote:And you guys were asking why the hell did all those Frequesuan nations suddenly ran to CATO? That's fun.

They practically handed us a cake, for free.

Well, Siege's point is reinforced, but can we at least make an effort to avoid recriminations from the last game this time around?

I offered before and no one objected, but I wouldn't mind being a mod as I might not be a really active player in this next version of the game.

I have my sights set on the Indonesia/Malaysia region, even though this isn't the claims thread yet.

RogueIce wrote:

DarthShady wrote:What do the rest of you guys think, three mods or just Steve?

I do like multiple mods. For one thing, it lets Steve recuse himself when a situation involves him. Now personally, I trust Steve to be impartial, but it does look better if you recuse yourself when it comes to your own self-interest.

Plus, if Steve is inactive for a week or whatever because of RL concerns, the other mod(s) can step up and we don't have to wait forever.

I couldn't agree more. I too trust Steve completely, and in my opinion the two(or what ever number we decide on) additional mods should hold a similar status with the majority of the players. They need to be people whom most of us trust to be able to do a good job.

RogueIce wrote:

DarthShady wrote:Balkans, Yes. Austro-Hungarian Empire, No. I have some ideas, but it's still too early to reveal them.

You're not going to be Stas' bitch puppet again, are you?

No. Something different this time. God that joke is getting old.

*plans to invade RogueIce*

So where do you plan staking your claim?

Czechmate wrote:

Lonestar wrote:Fantastic. I still don't want you to be a mod. And no one made you mod, either by consensus(like Steve) or by Vote. You just appointed yourself.

Traditionally in forum games, he who makes the game's ruleset and does all the work of setting it up is the mod. So you're absolutely right, I appointed myself. And I did it because I've put the work in and only Steve, the senior mod that I voluntarily answer to, has done the same. While many potential players have been perfectly gracious about the situation, like Siege and Shinn and Baerne and others, you and Shady haven't done a blessed thing except bitch and moan about me.

Therefore, my status will be put to a decision by Steve and no one else, because none of you save Steve has earned the right to make that choice by putting the work into making this game.

Earned the right? What the fuck are you talking about? You made an effort to do something, that most of us could have done anyway, and you want to be mod? That's not how it works and you know it. If it did work, then Beo or somebody would have been made mod last time. In my opinion you are not fit to be mod and I will not recognize you as such, unless you are elected by a vote. And even then, I'll refer to other mods rather than deal with you.

Steve wrote:It's intentional, isn't it? You people wait for me to be in bed before you decide to have drama. I'm on to you!

Yes, yes it is.

Look, I'm willing to let the past stay in the past, as far as playing the game is concerned, but in my opinion Czechmate is not worthy of being mod, he simply does not have the credentials for it. I'm not the only one who doesn't trust him. People can't be expected to just forget the past. Things don't work that way.

As if to prove that he isn't worth being a mod, Czech tried to remove the rules page on the SDN wiki, and then Beowulf put them back in. Well fucking done.

I've been going over the ruleset, and I was wondering if 30 points might not just be too little to spend. Because with those 30 points, it is nearly impossible to have large-sized countries that do not have a 1 in every military category only.

To be fair, with me going for China I managed to get it so that I could have 3 in all of the focuses in starting military. Its at a detriment to other areas but its not undoable.

Thanas wrote:I've been going over the ruleset, and I was wondering if 30 points might not just be too little to spend. Because with those 30 points, it is nearly impossible to have large-sized countries that do not have a 1 in every military category only.

I'll talk to Czech about it. He'd intended that France would provide the model for an all-3 nation, but that was before we started tinkering with things.

Oh, and before I forget, tonight I'll be posting our claims thread.

After consideration I've decided that everyone will post what they want first. Then we'll reconcile any conflicting claims through negotiation.