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Well seeing as what I bought last time was wotth under 500 million and the fact that I have been left to grow, yeah, I am sticking to 480-500 billion. Though I recognise that I am going to have potential debt and inflation but I am going to get rid of those.

Sense wise, what would you think of a country doing a plan to keep at least 10% of GPD saved if anything went wrong, it would have something to fall back on. But this gets cast aside but people want to spend the money, resulting in little of it being spent due to debates going back and fourth? I just want to know how sensical it is.

Beowulf wrote:140mm would require either two piece ammunition, slowing loading time, or a autoloader to use. Um, see: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 2&t=122524 (as found through google. Weird for SDN to be on the first page of results for something).

Skimmer's tanks are said to be proof against 120mm. So you bring a bigger gun, and obviously an autoloader, and a big tank. ETC guns give maybe a 20% improvement in performance at best.

And oh, they are ETC guns as well. Been deploying them for years now as it is. My existing B-2 Black Panthers are also getting 120mm ETC guns too.

Raj Ahten wrote:The national army or whatever probably buys from Tonkin, but individual merc captains buy from whomever they want. I imagine they probably band together for large orders to drive costs down.

Damn, Klavostan's orbat is in need or an overhaul. A hell of a lot has happened in that nation since it was updated.

I was going to initially equip them with a bunch of ex-RTAF Super Phantom fighters for numbers; more advanced aircraft will probably enter service at some point. This would, of course, be a lot easier if we could renegotiate some of the terms of the Indhopal-Tonkin Joint Declaration on Klavostan

RogueIce wrote:

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I've seen 'em and I've always liked 'em. My B-52s are upgraded, but probably just to the modern real-life extent of American B-52(H?)s and not the obscene ones you've made.

I'll take 'em. Naval SSM carriers and massive escort fighters.

You know, I had those done to my B-52s. They were since retired, but since I have the Nova Terra version of AMARC I could probably send some your way. Since they came out of retirement once before to do the LLE thing, they'd be the B-52s which won't die. Zombie BUFFs! How can Shroomania refuse that?

I don't want MOAR B-52s. I just want my existing B-52s on hand to get upgraded. Since it makes no sense to buy any more 60+ year weapons platforms.

I think it's okay if Czech is relocated to be more West of Canissia. If that's okay with Steve.

phongn wrote:

Raj Ahten wrote:The national army or whatever probably buys from Tonkin, but individual merc captains buy from whomever they want. I imagine they probably band together for large orders to drive costs down.

Damn, Klavostan's orbat is in need or an overhaul. A hell of a lot has happened in that nation since it was updated.

I was going to initially equip them with a bunch of ex-RTAF Super Phantom fighters for numbers; more advanced aircraft will probably enter service at some point. This would, of course, be a lot easier if we could renegotiate some of the terms of the Indhopal-Tonkin Joint Declaration on Klavostan

Any possibility that they might want scads of Cicadas?

CmdrWilkens wrote: On that note historical inflation shoudl still be hitting the world economy to the tune of 2% or so annually so the 5% growth would be an EFFECTIVE growth of only about 3% give or take. As an aside that same inflation should get factored in to the pricing for most major purchases. I think I mentioend this on the price tag of the STAR class of vessels but I've basically inflation adjusted them. Likewise most other new hardware out there should be significantly more expensive (in 2017 dollars) against equivalent generation equipment in the real world (2009 dollars).

You got there before I could. 5% real growth is ridiuclously huge for a first-world economy. Furthermore, I assumed that the Biowar Year saw a decline in GDP due to massive travel restriction and cessation of all economic activity for several weeks (in nations that instituted such measures, of course). For PeZookia, I assumed a 10% decline in the biowar year, then 0% growth for the next year, then a slight post-war recovery spike at 5% or so, before it settled back into the usual 2-3% real growth.

PeZook wrote:

CmdrWilkens wrote: On that note historical inflation shoudl still be hitting the world economy to the tune of 2% or so annually so the 5% growth would be an EFFECTIVE growth of only about 3% give or take. As an aside that same inflation should get factored in to the pricing for most major purchases. I think I mentioend this on the price tag of the STAR class of vessels but I've basically inflation adjusted them. Likewise most other new hardware out there should be significantly more expensive (in 2017 dollars) against equivalent generation equipment in the real world (2009 dollars).

You got there before I could. 5% real growth is ridiuclously huge for a first-world economy. Furthermore, I assumed that the Biowar Year saw a decline in GDP due to massive travel restriction and cessation of all economic activity for several weeks (in nations that instituted such measures, of course). For PeZookia, I assumed a 10% decline in the biowar year, then 0% growth for the next year, then a slight post-war recovery spike at 5% or so, before it settled back into the usual 2-3% real growth.

Hrm, damn, I didn't have GDP loss as that big. 10% is a massive chunk. I figured going from +3.5% to -1+% was a big enough hit given the disruption lasted for just a couple months as opposed to an entire year.

Steve wrote: Hrm, damn, I didn't have GDP loss as that big. 10% is a massive chunk. I figured going from +3.5% to -1+% was a big enough hit given the disruption lasted for just a couple months as opposed to an entire year.

It depends on the severity of your protective measures. PeZookia ceased all economic activity for several weeks, which essentially means there'd be no production or wages paid (necessities were rationed and distributed from wartime stocks) save for the very basics like power production, sewage processing etc. - so you'd basically need to substract those numbers from your total GDP for the year.

In the ensuing hiccup, enterprises would go bankrupt, consumption would drop etc, which is why the post-drop bounce-back didn't recover everything.

Cascadia probably didn't go that far since we were so far away from either Astaria or Shepistan. We probably just refused foreign ships in increasing numbers (a ship at sea and almost to Cascadia when the bombs were dropped aren't going to get a chance to be contaminated, but one that was off the Velerian coast during the attacks and put in to other ports on the way might) and eliminated direct contact with Van Halstoff Base until we could confirm it wasn't contaminated.

That said, just some weeks of halted global trade would've had aftershocks everywhere, some countries suffering more than others. For a nation like Cascadia which enjoys having a share of global shipping that would've caused economic problems.

I may increase the economic reduction to closer to -2%, maybe 2.5%, to accomodate. Unless others think I should make it even steeper because of the global trade reduction?

Well, I don't think arguing over a couple percent is meaningful in this case, especially since you don't really have access to all the detailed economic statistics for your nation that would be necessary to model the precise drop

Okay. Got some unfettered shit for you lads. No bitterness, no whining, no grudges - just straight up data exchange.

First - thanks to Steve for his mediating work. Also, you guys go to him with your map beefs, cause he's volunteered to finish it. This is the version I've sent him: last one from me.

http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo24 ... 1248245134

Second - here's the deal with the Emmerian Isles.

They're (lots) closer to Messica than the OC now. Checked with the Huang Di - he's fine with it. Consider it the result of your self-fulfilling prophecies regarding my neutrality.

I'm going to split Vitoze off and give it a 200B GDP and part of my military. They're going to be the friendly ones who are maybe considering becoming closer to Emmeria again; we'll see how that fleshes out.

Polaria will have a 350B GDP and will remain proper closed-state fascist-autarkists who are busy dealing with their own reactionary rebels through...unsavory means.

Emmeria will have a proper ducal GDP of ~400B (growth rate has yet to be determined; it'll probably be maybe 4-5% at most for the two and a bit years that have elapsed) and no nuclear vessels. The Prinz Eugens will become conventional and the Konig Wilhelms and their submarine buddies are going to just...disappear.

I'm going to address most if not all of your bitching by doing this. All I expect of you in return is that you let go of your grudges and let things develop as they will without being dickish about it.

My major plotline for the forseeable future will be, naturally, reunification of Greater Emmeria through diplomatic or...nondiplomatic means. I intend to do it at properly and interestingly, so there's no need to rush it. If you want to be involved, you could perhaps PM me with your ideas and discuss them with me instead of simply forcing them through.

I don't trust you, and you don't trust me, but it -is- a patchable situation. If you're dicks about things, I will respond in kind and things will suck - but if you're cool about things, I will respond in kind and things will be enjoyable for all of us.

Ball's in your court.

Man, that's some really big ego you've got there

Anyway, I don't really have any problems with the map so far. Except having to redo my Orbiter model, but that was inevitable

What's our position on the change, anyway? Massive retcon, or us waking up one day and getting a dozen more folders than usual and going "WTF?" while our staffers are all "What's the problem? They've always been here!"?

PeZook wrote:Man, that's some really big ego you've got there

Anyway, I don't really have any problems with the map so far. Except having to redo my Orbiter model, but that was inevitable

What's our position on the change, anyway? Massive retcon, or us waking up one day and getting a dozen more folders than usual and going "WTF?" while our staffers are all "What's the problem? They've always been here!"?

No ego. I'm just being clear and straightforward.

Retcon. It was always that way...didn't you notice?

PeZook: I'm leaning toward retcon. We're mostly adding Principality, Duchy, and minor 3rd World-level states, so it's easy to explain away their lack of involvement in prior things as isolationist policies or simply not being important enough to factor in.

As for the map, I've replaced Czech's "greenland" with a copy of the RL one.

My other planned changes are to put a large island, likely Borneo, north of Veleria in a rough central position to the other island chains, Maybe even some connecting islands. I have plans to make Borneo into one, maybe two countries, Principality level. One will be based off the Sultanate of Brunei and I even have a bit of a crazy story idea relating to it.

I'm going to put Hawaii on the map between Serenity and the Caymans as well as give it a backhistory explaining its independence (namely, the fact that Shinra, Tonkin, Wilkonia, Serenity, and Cascadia all had varying interests on the islands to keep foreign planters from repeating RL history, and the proposed neutrality of the islands was maintained even after all but Cascadia and Tonkin became part of MESS due to inertia). Hawaii will be a constitutional monarchy and likely has Zorian and Serenite immigrant populations as well as native Polynesian-Hawaiians (Who will be more numerous than IRL I think).

Finally, I'm thinking of putting an island near Borneo - likely shaped off Cuba - to provide another non-island chain country for the North Pacific while a Japan-shaped island chain will be placed in the South Pacific, possibly representing a climate like that of South America's Patagonia region (southern Chile and Argentina, plus Falklands), possibly ex-Wilkonian since Wilkonia is supposedly a former Empire like Shroomania that had an expansive overseas empire of some kind. The natives may be modeled after those of the relevant reaches of South America. Said country may see some increased involvement in the world justified by finding large quantities of strategically-important resources (oil, natural gas, uranium, copper, high-grade iron ore, etc.).

Any comments/suggestions/objections? Once we have a finalized map I'll begin the process of filling in nations, cultures, and with input from others, OrBats.

08 3.3%
09 3.5%
10 -5.5%
11 0.4%
12 1.8%
13 2.6%
14 2.5%
15 3.3%
16 3.3%

My proposal for Cascadia's GDP changes, accounting for the Pathogen War's effects on the global economy and trade and the recovery.

Basically, Cascadia's going strong economically, expanding in part from fresh resources in Van Halstoff after 2008 and promise of similar when Welles Island is claimed, then the Pathogen War wipes out that growth nearly. However, since Cascadia didn't have to regiment quite so much as Old Continent countries, which were nearer the war-zone, the economy begins recovering in 2011. It's sluggish at first, with just a .4% increase, since there are so many other nations who haven't fully recovered and it still impacts global trade. 2012 rolls around and despite disruptions in trade thanks to the East Velerian Conflict (Zoria's attempt to consolidate the Dragonsnake River Valley) the economy begins to show some uptick. 2013 rolls around and the economy's growth shows recovery is complete, though 2014 shows things are still somewhat spooling up (And may represent other countries' full recoveries cutting into Cascadia's market share of global shipping, maybe also a slackening of aircraft orders). However in 2015 new resource finds in Welles Island and Van Halstoff provide further growth and 2016 shows much of the same. I think 2017 will show a GDP growth of 3.2% due to some of the initial hiccups of Pacific Union integration.

How's this sound?


Edit: Using that as a template, Cascadia's GDP at the start of 2017 was $1.436T. Using a pop growth of 1.2 and 1.1% for 2015 and 2016 from my current figure, that makes for a per capita of $53,973.

Quite high, yeah, but Cascadia's a wealthy Kingdom. With the new PacUnion we're gonna need it.

After a sharp drop, you can typically experience a short period of atypical growth, depending on the exact nature of the depression.

Also, I think we should agree to show figures in either real or nominal growth. Because achieving growth figures of 9% or more is easy if it's nominal, but reporting figures in both measures is rather confusing.

EDIT: For comparison, PeZookia started with 1,3 trillion GDP, and due to all the contractions and tax increases along the way, we're now at 1,375 trillion. The 2017 tax increase hurt especially bad, but it's much better than spiralling public debt

I am not sure how to apply that drop seeing as I started in 2013. I could have a drop in 2010 but recover to form the economy I have in 2013 and then onwards a growth spirt which I see no harm in having.

I am glad we have a new map and I agree for with its postions.

Whoa. If I apply Beowulf's 40 percent increase to the roughly 1,5 trillion economy of the NFT (3 x 500 billion) I end up with a 2,1 trillion dollar GDP. That's rather more than I expected...

Bluewolf, you could use the biowar and resulting economic woes as part of your backstory and the reason for your country's current fucked up politial climate

Yeah I was thinking that, I was also thinking of a reason for why a country would try and store near 10% of its GDP for an emergency. Desperate thinking and all that. I will be doing it all and reloading it to SDN's Wiki later.

That's insane. 10% is usually enough to fund health care and emergency services at the same time, and you're storing it?

Even better, with 1/3 of the vote controlled by crazy libertarians, you'd never get away with it

Yep, it was insane and thats why it never got beyond 6%. The scheme was shot down very fast and the money was quickly fed on. The idea was a desperate act in a sense and yes, the Libertarians really wanted that money. It never got spent fast though due to the varying interests of the parties.

SiegeTank wrote:Whoa. If I apply Beowulf's 40 percent increase to the roughly 1,5 trillion economy of the NFT (3 x 500 billion) I end up with a 2,1 trillion dollar GDP. That's rather more than I expected...

Well, after some discussion, it's probably best to assume that's a nominal increase, not the real increase (difference being inflation). After accounting for that, it's something like 15% off the top of the increase, and I didn't take into account the lack of growth for 2010. I suppose it should be more like 22% total increase over the past 8 years, and I'll be modifying my OOB to match that.

Tian Xia didn't shut down during the Pathogen War. Trade overseas shutdown, and that would have hurt alot, but internally, people stuck out trays of bleach solution at the entrances of buildings, wore masks and gloves, and didn't go out much for fun. So the service side of the economy took a big hit for a couple weeks. However, that big hole resulted in a relatively fast recovery later as people overcompensated afterwards. I'd figure on the lack of growth in 2010 and the extra growth from 2011 average out to about 3% for both years together.

Bluewolf wrote:Yep, it was insane and thats why it never got beyond 6%. The scheme was shot down very fast and the money was quickly fed on. The idea was a desperate act in a sense and yes, the Libertarians really wanted that money. It never got spent fast though due to the varying interests of the parties.

Even beyond that, where do you store it? How?

Nevermind Nevermind. It was stupid Idea and yeah I know thats common for me. I am shit at running countries and RPing.