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Simon_Jester wrote:Did you read my post? The Cocaine Wars seem like exactly the sort of thing your 19th century guys would have gotten involved in. I can change that bit if you like, though.

Oh I read it, and I agree. Sure could use a name more swanky than "North by Southwest Umeria Company", but other than that I'm on board with it. Amusingly, I've like five fictional drugs made up already to sell to you people too. If there's anything I'd want to add it's that San Dorado sold you the guns you needed to combat the people hopped up on San Dorado drugs. Because profit, baby.

Also, I envision something like what you're describing with Sorchus having happened during the rise of the Technocrats in Umeria. The "Guerilla Accountability Vanguard" is the organization that later evolved into the Umerian secret police, and they had considerable grudges against San Doradan firms involved in colonialist exploitation of the country by the time the 1940s rolled around.

I have no beef with that, although San Dorado learned very early on (like, 17th century early) that this is the sort of operation you run through a shell company that folds when the colony goes bust. That way it doesn't come back on the syndicates actually running the show. Vague resentment is perfectly understandable though: even if company B sold them the stuff they needed to get rid of company A the scholar-bureaucrats must have been plenty smart enough to realize that one way or the other they were getting screwed by companies from across the sea.

Maybe I could be on the same continent as Omnia and San Dorado? I'd have to be a fair distance from San Dorado, though. Could bump up against Champa without problems, though they'd probably get ancy around Umeria's nuclear reactors.

I certainly wouldn't mind sharing a continent with you.

madd0ct0r wrote:Additional basket cases states? Why Champa is a very modern and progressive, upwardly mobile country. We're constantly seeking higher ground you know.

Basket case states referred more to Omnia than you, although I'll admit the mention of Bangladesh didn't exactly give me the impression you were running the most high-tech of states .

You probably don't want to be immediately next to me for... well, obvious reasons. I could see Champa as a nation slightly farther away that's only recently been designated a market of interest by various megacorps though. "Hey guys, these folks appear to be progressive and upwardly mobile... I bet we can screw them out of a buck or two!" .

History of Arcadia: Preliminary

The Warring Kingdoms Period:

~900: First settlements on Larena Island are dated to this period.

1200-1250: The Kingdoms of Larena, Mannar, and Sarana are founded. The Empire of Glacia is founded towards the end of this period.

1275-1280: The War of the Armada: A Mannaran Fleet attempts an invasion of Glacia, drawing in allied Sarana. The two allied Islands decimate the Mannaran fleet in the tight confines of the sub-Glacian islands. Despite a late attempt at relief by the smaller Larenen fleet, the combined Glacian/Saranian force blockaded Mannar, forcing a surrender and annexation by Glacia.

1312: A revolt on Mannar is backed by Larena and Sarana, both Kingdoms wanting to keep Glacia from getting too powerful. The Kingdom of Mannar is restored with King Gustav, a member of a Cadet Branch of the Larenen Royal Family on the throne.

1324: King Gustav begins to tie Mannar closer to Glacia once again. While independence was preferred, the Glacian economy was stronger and Gustav hoped to get special trading privileges.

1360: After a long reign, King Gustav dies and Mannar begins to drift back to Larena, while Sarana returns to Glacia. The Four Kingdoms continue in a state of Cold War, with the occasional blockade or pirate activity.

1400-1450: The Long War. Glacia attempts to increase its influence into the small islands around Sarana, bringing its traditional ally into the Larenen camp. The three Kingdoms join together against the Empire, leading to the longest war in Arcadian history up to that point. Emperor James is forced to surrender the Sub-Glacian Islands in exchange for continued independence.

1500s: Early contact with explorers from other nations (Granadia?) brings focus from the Kingdoms onto the rest of the world. Ships from each of the Kingdoms began to explore far and wide. It is during this time that English comes to Arcadia through contact with Britonia.

1604-1617: Colonial War. Arcadian colonies collapse due to lack of support from the homeland, as natives push the colonial administrators out. Attempts to regain the colonies fail due to the divided state of the Kingdoms (and Empire). The Treaty of Sholm cedes the Arcadian colonies to native rulers.

1640s: Arcadia begins to run low on quality wood to build warships rapidly increasing in size. Trade is opened with larger continental nations (Rheinland perhaps?) to provide the supplies needed.

1650-1700: Great Decline. With the loss of the Colonies and increased reliance on trade amongst the divided Arcadian Kingdoms, the individual states begin to show the signs of strain and struggle to maintain their place in the world.

1680: Empress Irene I of Glacia is born.

1708: Irene proposes a radical plan. The four islands should unite and combine their resources in a unified Arcadian Kingdom to increase their power and influence on the global stage. The reluctant leaders of the other Islands agree to the plan, put into effect with the signing of the Unification Treaty.

United Kingdom of Arcadia:

1700s: After the unification, a relatively quiet century for the Arcadians who concentrated on setting up the new nation.

1820s: Arcadian trade fleets once again begin ranging around the world, including old colonies. Flying the unified Arcadian Flag, these vessels trade with everyone and anyone.

1850s: Trade Conflicts. (no idea who would be up for this)

1900: HArMS Irene I is launched as the first 'dreadnought' built by Arcadia. Native historians argue it was designed and built before the actual Dreadnought of former-Britonia, though that is heavily disputed.

1908-1914: First Great World War? Arcadia remains neutral, though HArMS Irene I and her successors are placed on high alert and attempt to run supplies to blockaded Rheinland.

1915-1936: With the aftermath of the First Great World War, Arcadia fell into isolationism. Relief supplies were sent to Rheinland where possible, but nothing more as the Navy was progressively expanded to keep the nation secure. Glacia is particular payed extra attention to its naval force, replacing the Irene I-class dreadnoughts (save the very first that was retained as ceremonial flagship) with the much larger James III-class super-dreadnoughts. Larenen flyers became the first Arcadians (first people period?) to fly off a converted merchantmen the Krakta.

1936-1952: Second Great World War? Undecided if Arcadia joins Rheinland in the war itself, or gets involved with another nation.

1980: The first Arcadian nuclear reactor, codenamed 'Battery' is built.

1990: The nuclear-powered battleship HArMS Gustav I is launched by Mannar.

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All of this is very preliminary as I'm not sure if Arcadia will stay islands or go continental. We'll see on that end.

EDIT: I'm working on a map now, but I'm imagining Arcadia as somewhere around IRL Iceland in location, with parts a bit further south.

If you place yourself next to Iceland then we can't share a border as I ensision my country to be about where central Europe is IRL.

I think Rheinland's natural neighbours from what people use in climate zones etc. would be Either Granada, Dreisgond (large population of English speakers might be resettled Britonians, if not the climate mirrors Rheinland nearly exactly), Champia might work as well as a more sourthern nation if maddoctor is so inclined.

In case any of them want to then I would add to the map to the east/southern part, unless they want to remain close Islands to the south/east.

The north and west probably won't work due to climate.

Iceland is where I think it would be right now. That being said, if it helps to move to get a border, that's an option worth pursuing.

Steve wrote:Then I would propose we decide who wants to border whom.

I wish to be a Pacific-facing western-coast power, with neighbors to my east and southeast.

I'd like to sit all alone in the central Pacific basin - playing the geography of the real world Pacific.

Skywalker_T-65 wrote:Iceland is where I think it would be right now. That being said, if it helps to move to get a border, that's an option worth pursuing.

oh wait, you're an island nation anyway, aren't you? In that case there is no need to move as it doesn't matter if you are 5 or 5k km away as you'd probably still be a neighbour if Rhineland is closer than other nations.

Siege wrote:

Simon_Jester wrote:Did you read my post? The Cocaine Wars seem like exactly the sort of thing your 19th century guys would have gotten involved in. I can change that bit if you like, though.

Oh I read it, and I agree. Sure could use a name more swanky than "North by Southwest Umeria Company", but other than that I'm on board with it. Amusingly, I've like five fictional drugs made up already to sell to you people too. If there's anything I'd want to add it's that San Dorado sold you the guns you needed to combat the people hopped up on San Dorado drugs. Because profit, baby.

Cocaine can be replaced with any other drug that causes people to behave in an aggressive and insane way.

I will cheerfully rename the company; it was in keeping with the overall tone of the passage. Pick one.

Also, the Umerians wouldn't have bought the guns, that's the point. They would, however, have cheerfully bought the tool-and-die establishment required to rifle their own guns. Would that satisfy you?

Also, I envision something like what you're describing with Sorchus having happened during the rise of the Technocrats in Umeria. The "Guerilla Accountability Vanguard" is the organization that later evolved into the Umerian secret police, and they had considerable grudges against San Doradan firms involved in colonialist exploitation of the country by the time the 1940s rolled around.

I have no beef with that, although San Dorado learned very early on (like, 17th century early) that this is the sort of operation you run through a shell company that folds when the colony goes bust. That way it doesn't come back on the syndicates actually running the show. Vague resentment is perfectly understandable though: even if company B sold them the stuff they needed to get rid of company A the scholar-bureaucrats must have been plenty smart enough to realize that one way or the other they were getting screwed by companies from across the sea.

Yes. They're used to people running elaborate financial dodges on them. And they have very little respect for it because their prevailing culture thinks money is essentially worthless while education, physical comforts, and personal responsibility are precious.

Not that this class is incorruptible, but the average member is surprisingly hard to bribe and surprisingly non-respectful of the claim that business should be done in fashion X because [insert economic principle here.]

Also, most actual members of the governing elite consider government and policy to be a very personal thing, and are comfortable with the idea that leadership is personally responsible for what the organization does. They might be willing to get into a 'dirty tricks' war with San Dorado's syndicates because of that, knowing quite well the syndicates will dirty them right back- because from their point of view it's a quite simple case of feud: "you hurt our people, we hurt you."

That desire to retaliate violently against the systematic abuse and oppression of the largely-helpless Umerian people by various classes of foreign and domestic thugs and exploiters had a lot to do with why they pulled the trigger on the final round of the Umerian Civil Wars sixty years ago in the first place.

Maybe I could be on the same continent as Omnia and San Dorado? I'd have to be a fair distance from San Dorado, though. Could bump up against Champa without problems, though they'd probably get ancy around Umeria's nuclear reactors.

I certainly wouldn't mind sharing a continent with you.

Likewise- it's just that if Umeria were next door to San Dorado it would probably have invaded the place by now. I don't want that in my backstory.

If you look for being situated next to a nation which does not look kindly on foreign aggression then Rheinland would be a pretty good option. Just saying - with the state it is in it probably thinks rebuilding brings more benefits than conquest.

Thanas wrote:If you place yourself next to Iceland then we can't share a border as I ensision my country to be about where central Europe is IRL.

I think Rheinland's natural neighbours from what people use in climate zones etc. would be Either Granada, Dreisgond (large population of English speakers might be resettled Britonians, if not the climate mirrors Rheinland nearly exactly), Champia might work as well as a more sourthern nation if maddoctor is so inclined.

In case any of them want to then I would add to the map to the east/southern part, unless they want to remain close Islands to the south/east.

The north and west probably won't work due to climate.

I have no problems being located around Rheinland's south as a continental nation, though accessing Granadia means crossing the Pyreeus (the Not-Pyrenees) mountain range which effectively provides its natural border. Just so you know.

I'm happy going anywhere, as long as it's warm and the rivers can empty onto a sea, even an inland sea like the med - it works for egypt

Thanas wrote:If you look for being situated next to a nation which does not look kindly on foreign aggression then Rheinland would be a pretty good option. Just saying - with the state it is in it probably thinks rebuilding brings more benefits than conquest.

Who, me?

I don't think it makes a lot of sense for Umeria to be next to any 'European' power either- that is, a state which was technologically developed in the 18th and 19th centuries, as opposed to being backward in the 19th century and having to play catchup. The nation's history is broadly inspired by China, and China would have had a very different 1800-1950 experience if it had directly bordered one or more European states. More like the Ottomans, or more like Russia.

Hey Simon, I presume that Hawai'i has a significant population that is derived from Umerian stock (and Nipponese, ect) Maybe Hawai'i was a convenient place to send problematic individuals?

Hm.

During the Civil Wars, the technocrats mostly didn't send problematic individuals away, they either killed them, stuck them in a labor camp building railways or the like. Mass deportation isn't their style. To them, if you're a citizen you're a citizen, and if you're a gen-u-ine enemy of the state you should die in a fire. Not much middle ground.

They've become more moderate since, but on the other hand they don't have as many dissenters to deal with as they used to. Massive economic growth associated with the country's development has been relatively good for public morale, and the majority of the current population has never known an alternative form of government. Even those who have, remember those forms of government as actively shitty- democracy was a failed experiment for Umeria, one that devolved into a Jacobinist-Maoist hybrid, then fell apart completely into warlordism.

Now, there might be a huge number of refugees and expatriates who would thus flee Umeria, and maybe settle in Hawaii. But not a lot of people actively exiled, because again- to the technocrats, either you're one of theirs (in which case they should discipline you and take responsibility for you), or you're an enemy of their people (in which case you should die).

Made a few additions to Fuso's history writeup back on the sixth page. I'm especially interested in seeing what Steve and Thanas have to say, as the fate of the Fuso Commonwealth during the Second Great World War is tied to Cascadia and Rheinland.

Simon_Jester wrote:Cocaine can be replaced with any other drug that causes people to behave in an aggressive and insane way.

Cocaine is fine for the time period. The stuff I was thinking of are more recent SinGen concoctions.

I will cheerfully rename the company; it was in keeping with the overall tone of the passage. Pick one.

House of Umeria Company of Merchants, 'House of Umeria' for short.

Also, the Umerians wouldn't have bought the guns, that's the point. They would, however, have cheerfully bought the tool-and-die establishment required to rifle their own guns. Would that satisfy you?

Fine by me, although I don't see how it has to be either/or. You're gonna need someone or something to keep the cocaine-fueled crazies off your back until you can get your shop set up, enough rifles made and enough dudes trained to blow them away...

They might be willing to get into a 'dirty tricks' war with San Dorado's syndicates because of that, knowing quite well the syndicates will dirty them right back- because from their point of view it's a quite simple case of feud: "you hurt our people, we hurt you."

It would be a Very Bad Idea to get into a contest of dirty tricks with San Dorado. These people wrote the book on dirty tricks. They've been at it for as long as anyone can remember. Threaten them with personal peril and they'll shrug and tell you to get in line with everyone else.

It's just that if Umeria were next door to San Dorado it would probably have invaded the place by now. I don't want that in my backstory.

I agree that us being located next to each other would probably not work. I'd prefer just the Omnians or perhaps the Omnians and another NPC on my southern border (shouldn't be too difficult, given the size of my state).

San Dorado was never anyone's colony, or for that matter tiny, anywhere in its recent history. It was signficant as far back as the 11th century. It might not be geographically large, but invading it has not been an easy thing to do for ages. From what Steve and I have hashed out so far the Omnian Empire has in the distant past protected San Dorado because the existence of a lawless Tortuga-Venice analogue was highly useful every time the emperors needed to disappear someone, or mercenaries, or a fleet of corsairs to go hassle someone's coastline, or a quick source of gold. The geographic location of the city made it extremely difficult to assault too, so better to stay on its good side. So it's probably been set on fire or shot at with cannons a fair few times over the centuries, but nobody's ever managed to make it go away in a big fashion.

we could get a malaysia / singapore vibe going on?

What would that entail?

Siege wrote:

Also, the Umerians wouldn't have bought the guns, that's the point. They would, however, have cheerfully bought the tool-and-die establishment required to rifle their own guns. Would that satisfy you?

Fine by me, although I don't see how it has to be either/or. You're gonna need someone or something to keep the cocaine-fueled crazies off your back until you can get your shop set up, enough rifles made and enough dudes trained to blow them away...

Eh. It all boils down to details. I'm trying to model their decision-making process.

They might be willing to get into a 'dirty tricks' war with San Dorado's syndicates because of that, knowing quite well the syndicates will dirty them right back- because from their point of view it's a quite simple case of feud: "you hurt our people, we hurt you."

It would be a Very Bad Idea to get into a contest of dirty tricks with San Dorado. These people wrote the book on dirty tricks. They've been at it for as long as anyone can remember. Threaten them with personal peril and they'll shrug and tell you to get in line with everyone else.

I didn't say it'd be a good idea. It'd probably be a starkly bad idea, though I feel reasonably confident that the full resources of a moderately ruthless nation-state's secret services would at least get a few punches in.

Especially since they probably wouldn't bother making many threats, they'd just start blowing stuff up. A quote just popped into my head...

"What, you don't like sneak attacks? It's a compliment, it means they're taking you seriously. Among my people, threat displays are reserved for animals, and people too stupid to realize what they're doing wrong."

[Sorry, no context yet, I'm in a sleep/caffeine-deprived haze and running on free association.]

San Dorado was never anyone's colony, or for that matter tiny, anywhere in its recent history. It was signficant as far back as the 11th century. It might not be geographically large, but invading it has not been an easy thing to do for ages. From what Steve and I have hashed out so far the Omnian Empire has in the distant past protected San Dorado because the existence of a lawless Tortuga-Venice analogue was highly useful every time the emperors needed to disappear someone, or mercenaries, or a fleet of corsairs to go hassle someone's coastline, or a quick source of gold. The geographic location of the city made it extremely difficult to assault too, so better to stay on its good side. So it's probably been set on fire or shot at with cannons a fair few times over the centuries, but nobody's ever managed to make it go away in a big fashion.

I keep picturing medieval San Dorado as, basically, Ankh-Morpork...

Shinn Langley Soryu wrote:Made a few additions to Fuso's history writeup back on the sixth page. I'm especially interested in seeing what Steve and Thanas have to say, as the fate of the Fuso Commonwealth during the Second Great World War is tied to Cascadia and Rheinland.

I like it and I also think that the trend of coal bunker explosions and subsequent wars makes for a nice theme, considering Rheinland started its first war against Britonia as well after a coal bunker explosion.

The only thing I would change is Cascadia and Fuso running supplies to Rheinland, that would be suicide with surface ships. Instead I would suggest that they copied Rheinland's submarine transports (think bigger versions of this ship) and thus provided valuable assistance that way. Maybe another aid would have been to situate U-boot tankers and suppliers like the Charlotte Schliemann which would have enabled subs to carry out a global campaign.

It's clear Britonia and Nippon had allies if the war took that long, so we'll have to decide who they allied with.

I'll try to get a rough placement map soon, as well as a Cascadia writeup. I'm admittedly tempted, due to the much bigger size of this Cascadia versus the SDNW2 and SDNW3 Cascadias, to name it the United States/Republics of the Pacific/Cascadia, and I may alter a US flag to have green, white, and blue stripes instead.

The tough part will be fitting everyone together, we have Dreisgond as a fairly big state, and the Omnians, and Fin wants a near-Russia-sized country as well. Some compromises may be in order. Especially if we want to leave room for NPCs.

Force Lord wrote:I have no problems being located around Rheinland's south as a continental nation, though accessing Granadia means crossing the Pyreeus (the Not-Pyrenees) mountain range which effectively provides its natural border. Just so you know.

That's fine, considering I have no desire for conquest. Let me see if I can wiggle a Peninsula shaped mass on the map.

madd0ct0r wrote:I'm happy going anywhere, as long as it's warm and the rivers can empty onto a sea, even an inland sea like the med - it works for egypt

Yeah, I just can't get the teardrop shape to work with the Rheinland map. Which is a shame.

Steve wrote:It's clear Britonia and Nippon had allies if the war took that long, so we'll have to decide who they allied with.

Yeah, considering everybody apparently wants to take part in the eighty years war I might have to revise my pop figures as well.

Steve wrote:Fin wants a near-Russia-sized country as well. Some compromises may be in order. Especially if we want to leave room for NPCs.

It would be nice if Fin would post here, seems there is already this BS offsite communication going on.

It's just Fin and Zook discussing concepts since their countries will have a common history, they shared the google doc with me.

Just edited my nation history. Will edit it again if people object to some of the changes.

So, a very rough idea of my country. Well, history. Something. Look I've been busy. Anyway...

There used to be seven City States on the island of [Shinra/Something] that, some time in the distant past, where all united by King/Emperor Shinra I. Here's a map:

1. Midgar
2. Junon
3. Vector
4. Jidoor
5. Coronet
6. Dalaran
7. Tampa

This is not a great map (no inland rivers or lakes shown but they obviously exist, however the topography is probably "good enough" for me).

At any rate, as I said these City-States got together in the Shinra Kingdom/Empire of Shinra or whatever. Because hey, if you can make seven City-States form together, why not name it after yourself?

So moving forward, history stuff happens. At some point democracy takes hold. The Shinra Kingdom/Empire/Whatever becomes the Shinra Republic.

Move forward some more. Stuff happens. I think some sort of inaction/complacency or whatever on the part of the elected government. Probably in response (or the lack thereof) to some international thing but I'll have to work that out later as we fuse histories. Anyway, the people are mad. They want change. They want a decisive leader.

Re-enter the Shinra Family. Always influential and powerful even in the Republic, but not always in power, as it were. Well now here's some agitation. So rather than let the Republic fall, they come up with a compromise...sort of. There is Constitutional [Whatever] that comes up with an Amendment: it used to be, Presidential Elections were defined as happening ever X number of years. Now, elections are held "at a time to be set by the Congress" or words to that effect. So a new election is held. A President Shinra is elected. And...

Congress never sets a date for further Presidential Elections. For this is the deal struck. There is also another unofficial bargain in there: the President will get effectively free reign on foreign policy and related matters, Congress will basically rubber-stamp what he (or she) says. In return, it is expected that the President will never use his veto on any domestic issues, and will sign whatever Congress votes upon.

Thus the people get their Strong Leader while still retaining the trappings of democracy on the home front.

There is more, of course: including obviously the tenuousness of this highly unorthodox (to say the least) division of power. But it's what I have ready to submit for public scrutiny as of this point, so there you go.

So yes, some internal issues and potential complications, I just haven't hashed it out enough in my own mind to coherently share them here.

Force Lord wrote:Just edited my nation history. Will edit it again if people object to some of the changes.

Looks fine, especially with Francia being a part of Rheinland.


I have put together a preliminary version of our two nations on a map, but did not edit in most of the terrani details of your nation as I did not want to presume (and I suspect you can handle paint yourself.)

Basically took the baisc outline of Spain, kept the same urban centers, added a few extra rivers to make the nation more competitive to Rheinland (as otherwise infrastructure would be lagging behind). Now Granadia has a few rivers (if not quite oceangoing ones) connecting it with the sea and the urban centers with each other as much as possible.
http://i.imgur.com/ZAZcQok.jpg

Scale might be a bit off but should give people a general idea.

Depending on the size of your country it might be better to enlarge the peninsula further still but I leave that up to you.

Steve wrote:It's just Fin and Zook discussing concepts since their countries will have a common history, they shared the google doc with me.

Nevertheless, I would think it best to have it here in this thread out in the open so that others can react to that common history or at least figure things out instead of having coutnries the size of Russia dropped as fait accompli on them. Storyline planning is fine for PM but I see no reason to have nationbuilding anywhere else but here.