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phongn wrote:You need nuclear deterrence, to be blunt.

We don't WANT nuclear deterrence! I do not want Shepnukistani and Saddamistani madmangs in their bunkers with maps and buttons maneuvering miniature nuclear rockets over a map of FUN nations!

Man, why hate us? We just want to sell stuff, and occasionally demonstrate the skill of our scientific-industrial complex. We even sold you aircraft (of which not all have presumably been delivered). Offered missiles to defend your country!

Shroomania has a competent military-industrial complex. We can make our own mods to our F-14s from what you've given us. Also, we only asked for you to upgrade a carrier-load of F-14s, anyway. A couple dozen F-14s shouldn't be that much

Stas Bush wrote:You smuggled a nuclear device, undeclared, and exploded it in the Central Sea. That's a possible course of nuclear terrorism. Just like me hiding nukes into storage can be construed as "preparing for nuclear war". Two can play at this game. Besides, exploding a smuggled nuke is certainly more threatening than hiding them.

I hardly consider it "smuggling," though it was rather showy, I concede. And I'd hope people here are competent enough to be inspecting traffic to radiological signatures for ships approaching their ports. Smuggling nukes is a loser's game.

Smuggling nukes is a loser's game.

Not if it's a nuclear-tipped torpedo, or a hidden battery of cruise missiles. Otherwise, what good are your nukes at all without means of delivery, as you say? If they are worthless as deterrent, that's just stupid.

I do not want Shepnukistani and Saddamistani madmangs in their bunkers with maps and buttons maneuvering miniature nuclear rockets over a map of FUN nations!

Yeah actually. That's why I moved my nuclear warheads into reserve. I don't want them to have us on the radar.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:We don't WANT nuclear deterrence! I do not want Shepnukistani and Saddamistani madmangs in their bunkers with maps and buttons maneuvering miniature nuclear rockets over a map of FUN nations!

I am certain the the UAR has targeteered every nation on the planet so far and has a whole host of war options. That's just prudent planning. Should a FUN-UAR war start, do you seriously think your lack of weapons are going to stop them from plastering you with SRAMs?

Shroomania has a competent military-industrial complex. We can make our own mods to our F-14s from what you've given us. Also, we only asked for you to upgrade a carrier-load of F-14s, anyway. A couple dozen F-14s shouldn't be that much

Sure, but you don't have the engines or the radar or the rest of the updated avionics, IIRC. Be a lot of work, really.

Stas Bush wrote:Not if it's a nuclear-tipped torpedo, or a hidden battery of cruise missiles. Otherwise, what good are your nukes at all without means of delivery, as you say? If they are worthless as deterrent, that's just stupid.

Patience, young padawan, the delivery systems are coming. Just ... they're not really directed at that region and they aren't available yet. For the moment my navy doesn't actually have anything in the way of real land-attack capability.

I'm so confused about the ship building... math seriously hurts my brain.

Each of these levels has different GDP, navy and shipbuilding capacity. When comparing with real-world countries, we'll use a baseline of Spain which can produce about 450 thousand DWT of merchant ships annually.

This is what we can expect a Kingdom to make. For ISCA I used the following baselines:

L1: 60-100 DWT yearly
L2: 120-180 DWT yearly
L3: 500-600 DWT yearly
L4: 1000-1200 DWT yearly
L5: 1800-2000 DWT yearly

Now, my Tsardom is almost exactly like Spain, in size, population, etc. So on one hand I see I can make up to 450,000 DWTs a year; and on the scale we have here I see I can make, at max, 1,200 DWT.

I've been wanting to make minesweepers, supply ships, fast-attack corvettes, as well as civilian ships for ISCA but I really have no idea what my capacity is. For example, the Anuket-class TLAM corvette 560 tons displacement (stats from the Russian Nanuchka-class corvette, my vaersion is basically a "NATO-ized" version with better engines) --I assume that to be total displacement, since I understand that the stats on our SDN-provided scale is for cargo displacement.

So... if I'm trying to build Anuket-class corvettes, at 560 tons total displacement apiece, what's the formula for figuring that into my yearly build capability, listed at 1200 DWT max?

If you can walk me through it once, I'll typically "get it" and can do the figures for all my other stuff, but I need to be babied through it the first time...

phongn wrote:

Shroomania has a competent military-industrial complex. We can make our own mods to our F-14s from what you've given us. Also, we only asked for you to upgrade a carrier-load of F-14s, anyway. A couple dozen F-14s shouldn't be that much

Sure, but you don't have the engines or the radar or the rest of the updated avionics, IIRC. Be a lot of work, really.

Hrm... I only have 24 F-14s. You sure you weren't able to upgrade them all in time?

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Hrm... I only have 24 F-14s. You sure you weren't able to upgrade them all in time?

RogueIce had orders as did my own air self-defense force. I figure you probably got half done.

I think the big difference here is this: on one hand, MAD would have worked, but here, we all know it wouldn't. Shep would happily nuke the lot of us, in exchange for his nation pulverised to glass.

That's probably the scariest part.

Yet I haven't done it yet. Blows your mind huh?

MKSheppard wrote:Yet I haven't done it yet. Blows your mind huh?

I think this comes under the category of "playing with your prey".

If we let it bog down in "the forever standoff" it'll die. Let's be more open and make it a more collaborative storyline rather than a series of attempts to endlessly one-up and surprise.

Coyote wrote:I'm so confused about the ship building... math seriously hurts my brain.

Each of these levels has different GDP, navy and shipbuilding capacity. When comparing with real-world countries, we'll use a baseline of Spain which can produce about 450 thousand DWT of merchant ships annually.

This is what we can expect a Kingdom to make. For ISCA I used the following baselines:

L1: 60-100 DWT yearly
L2: 120-180 DWT yearly
L3: 500-600 DWT yearly
L4: 1000-1200 DWT yearly
L5: 1800-2000 DWT yearly

Now, my Tsardom is almost exactly like Spain, in size, population, etc. So on one hand I see I can make up to 450,000 DWTs a year; and on the scale we have here I see I can make, at max, 1,200 DWT.

I've been wanting to make minesweepers, supply ships, fast-attack corvettes, as well as civilian ships for ISCA but I really have no idea what my capacity is. For example, the Anuket-class TLAM corvette 560 tons displacement (stats from the Russian Nanuchka-class corvette, my vaersion is basically a "NATO-ized" version with better engines) --I assume that to be total displacement, since I understand that the stats on our SDN-provided scale is for cargo displacement.

So... if I'm trying to build Anuket-class corvettes, at 560 tons total displacement apiece, what's the formula for figuring that into my yearly build capability, listed at 1200 DWT max?

If you can walk me through it once, I'll typically "get it" and can do the figures for all my other stuff, but I need to be babied through it the first time...

560 Ton Military Ship x 5 (to get DWT for a military ship) = 2800DWT needed to build the ship in 1 year.
Also multiply your max capacity by 1000. The numbers on the chart are by thousands of DWT.

Pazook - am I right or wrong on this one?

I did not realize how big I was modernizing my main docks 2 years ago when I upgraded for $1B. I have a big ass shipyard now I guess.

EDIT: I fucked up the calculations and had to go back and read it again myself.

EDIT2: Are RO-RO ships used to transport military equipment classified as a military ship (X5 for DWT) or a normal ship (X1.5 for DWT)?

Another question on the DWT thing. If I want to build a ship quicker than in 1 year, do I just multiply the DWT by how much quicker I want it? For example if I want to build a ship in 6 months instead of 1 year, would I multiply the DWT by 2?

Pazook - am I right or wrong on this one?

I did not realize how big I was modernizing my main docks 2 years ago when I upgraded for $1B. I have a big ass shipyard now I guess.

Yeah, I forgot to add the "1200 thousand DWT".

SO an Anuket-class displaces 560 tons, you multiply by 1.5 and then by 5.

This gets you around 4200, which is actually 4.2 thousand, so you are left with 1195.8 thousand DWT. THe benefit of using small corvettes, I guess is that you can spam them in large numbers.

For a ro-ro ship I have no idea. I'd guess displacement times 1.5, since it's a specialized ship with more moving parts than a simple bulker (for simple ships like the fcs, DWT to build is actually a bit less than displacement, for complicated stuff like helicopter tenders or ro-ros it should be a bit higher)

This guide is really a work in progress...I'm guessing we'll hammer everything out him v.5 or 6

The expansion sums look pretty low, to be honest, though it still takes a lot of time to build them up to the point where you can expect to construct aircraft carriers and the like.

Then again, if we wanted realism, I would need to build functions and complicated equations to properly model the total capacity, building times and ship sizes

I don't expect to be building carriers. But since I paid $1B into it that would increase the size of my shipyard by 500000DWT per year, right? When I put in what ships I can produce I put a size limit on them as well. I said I could only build ships as big as a Ticonderoga class for military ships, and Aframax sized for civilian ships.

General Deathdealer wrote:I don't expect to be building carriers. But since I paid $1B into it that would increase the size of my shipyard by 500000DWT per year, right? When I put in what ships I can produce I put a size limit on them as well. I said I could only build ships as big as a Ticonderoga class for military ships, and Aframax sized for civilian ships.

Well, we could say your capacity for size is a function on the DWT level of your shipyards. BUt i'll have to think about it.

CUrrently, building a CVN will require a bit more than 1 million DWT capacity.

I'll write more on the topic later. I have to go right now

Everyone! Buy my guns!

Coyote wrote:If we let it bog down in "the forever standoff" it'll die. Let's be more open and make it a more collaborative storyline rather than a series of attempts to endlessly one-up and surprise.

Ok, while I am a mostly idle particapant in this grand adventur.. I have to echo something on this... We have to remmeber that in OT, we were basically given a paradise, a nation of people loyal to us all bowing at our knees ready to do our bidding. We got a temperat world with more resources then we could ever need and a abundances of riches.

In a way its a bit of experiment. Do we, even in a iddlic setting still revert back to squabbling and fighting?

The moment Nukes were brought into this game it started a clock ticking. While nothing has happend...YET, it makes me highly nervious how long people will continue to posure before someones itchy trigger finger at last goes off.

Maybe something new needs to be added? Something perhaps to bring us a bot together so we don't eventually nuke each other.

Crossroads Inc. wrote:In a way its a bit of experiment. Do we, even in a idyllic setting still revert back to squabbling and fighting?

We have major conflicts of ideology and flashpoints over destabilized regions that have interests to major players. Of course there's going to be conflict! It's frankly wishful thinking to believe otherwise. Humanity is not a nice species.

The moment Nukes were brought into this game it started a clock ticking. While nothing has happened...YET, it makes me highly nervous how long people will continue to posture before someones itchy trigger finger at last goes off.

Now we see how nuclear game theory works when people technically don't have anything to lose.

Maybe something new needs to be added? Something perhaps to bring us a bot together so we don't eventually nuke each other.

... and we'll promptly fall apart once this new threat is dealt with.

phongn wrote:Now we see how nuclear game theory works when people technically don't have anything to lose.

Would you like to play a game?

MKSheppard wrote:

phongn wrote:Now we see how nuclear game theory works when people technically don't have anything to lose.

Would you like to play a game?

A game called...Thermonuclear War?

Shep, if you haven't seen War Games, do so now.

Master_Baerne wrote:Shep, if you haven't seen War Games, do so now.

USSR FIRST STRIKE
US FIRST STRIKE
NATO/WARSAW PACT
FAR EAST STRATEGY
US/USSR ESCALATION
MIDDLE EAST WAR
USSR CHINA ATTACK
INDIA PAKISTAN WAR
MEDITERRANEAN WAR
HONG KONG VARIANT
SEATO DECAPITATING
CUBAN PROVOCATION
ATLANTIC HEAVY
CUBAN PARAMILITARY
NICARAGUAN PREEMPTIVE
PACIFIC TUTORIAL
BURMESE THEATERWIDE
TURKISH DECOY
NATO ALLIANCE *
ARGENTINA ESCALATION
ICELAND MAXIMUM

Has Sheppard seen War Games, ahah... ahahh. ahhh

That's funny

Posted my ISCA orders for the year, and updated my OOB with my presently planned end-goal for the Shinra Republic Merchant Marine (SRMM).

Now, as you can see, the vast majority of it is still in the orange "planning" phase. With some l33t MS Excel skillz, I have it figured as around $12.5 billion USD for the eventual construction costs of the whole shebang, with some 255 commerce ships of varying types and 345 Patrol/Escort types. Assuming, of course, my plans don't change.

As of now, most of it is going to be in the hands of the government. Still, some privatization could well occur as the fleet gets larger and larger, though the hospital and patrol/escort ships would remain government vessels (as well as probably the Nuclear Commerce Ships). Keeping my budget from totally breaking as my merchant fleet expands.

And yes, I decided to put the FCS helicopter tenders in a patrol/escort role. I figure they're most suited for that anyway, as the el-cheapo UNREP ships for my P/E unit.

So um mangs, when do we get the convoy thing resolved?