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SiegeTank wrote:Sweet, let's hunt some rebels then. How about we name the bombings Operation CUSTOMER COMPLAINT?

I was thinking Operation Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Also, Ryan Thunder, would you approve of Gizmonic Rail building a Railway across your country, with an offshoot arm into the ASFR?

CmdrWilkens wrote:

Steve wrote:Not sure. Who'll be hosting it this time?

And really, what did the last one accomplish? Or will we presume that world events and such overtook the summit and killed the proposed Treaty until we could meet again?

Totally unrelated but I probably should have gotten Wilkonia invovled but they were distracted the first time around. Given that I maintain the alrgest Navy in the pacific if there is a new conference I'm probably going to want to jump in.

Hrm. That would probably drift the arrangement toward a primarily economic treaty being negotiated, since having a major MESS member and not just a lesser one (Serenity) would make the overall alliance into an offshoot of MESS and thus guarantee any treaty's death in the Cascadian Senate.

Plus IIRC Zor specifically only invited the less-powerful Pacific states, Imperiums need not apply. Though Cascadia would hold no objection to Wilkonia joining, since our goal is pretty much an economic arrangement with security aspects (Extradition, cooperation against international-scale criminal activities like human-traffickers, etc.).

Karmic Knight wrote:I was thinking Operation Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Considering we dropped the nuclear aspect of the bombings, that seems hardly appropriate .

Wait, when did you guys orbit a fairly large spy sat?

Karmic Knight wrote:Also, Ryan Thunder, would you approve of Gizmonic Rail building a Railway across your country, with an offshoot arm into the ASFR?

Those red lines on the map represent high-traffic lines, which includes existing high-speed tracks and major highways, actually, so its just a matter of making a connection, unless you're using some kind of mag-lev or something.

My only conditions are that we get to levy taxes on whatever you send through our system. Sound fair to you?

SiegeTank wrote:Sweet, let's hunt some rebels then. How about we name the bombings Operation CUSTOMER COMPLAINT?

Sure.

I have (albeit very large and heavy) bombs that make the "daisy cutter" look like a firecracker by comparison. This is going to be fun.

Beowulf wrote:Wait, when did you guys orbit a fairly large spy sat?

I've been building a spy satellite network since I launched my second satellite, roughly three or so years ago. Considering the volatility of the geographical neighborhood I've found myself in, and the vulnerability of my nation (it being very small and heavily urbanized) I've always considered intelligence on whatever my neighbors are doing a top priority.

First mention of the things were made I think when the whole clusterfuck with the gas cannisters went down.

Uh...you better hope your trajectories are real goddamn awesome, because there's no way a LEO spysat can avoid overflying both Japanistan and the CSR.

Ryan Thunder wrote:

Karmic Knight wrote:Also, Ryan Thunder, would you approve of Gizmonic Rail building a Railway across your country, with an offshoot arm into the ASFR?

Those red lines on the map represent high-traffic lines, which includes existing high-speed tracks and major highways, actually, so its just a matter of making a connection, unless you're using some kind of mag-lev or something.

My only conditions are that we get to levy taxes on whatever you send through our system. Sound fair to you?

Alright. The line is mostly going to be used to cart machinery from the ASRF and the Commonwealth to the CFR dependencies.

Steve wrote:Hrm. That would probably drift the arrangement toward a primarily economic treaty being negotiated, since having a major MESS member and not just a lesser one (Serenity) would make the overall alliance into an offshoot of MESS and thus guarantee any treaty's death in the Cascadian Senate.

Plus IIRC Zor specifically only invited the less-powerful Pacific states, Imperiums need not apply. Though Cascadia would hold no objection to Wilkonia joining, since our goal is pretty much an economic arrangement with security aspects (Extradition, cooperation against international-scale criminal activities like human-traffickers, etc.).

What I could do is send observers who would be there to comment (and to watch over any representatives of the Caymans)
and forward recommendations back to my Foreign Ministry for action at a later date. In the meantime they would not be participant in the conference nor would they have plenipotentiary authority to affix the Seal of Wilkonia to any agreement.

This gets you the best of both worlds, you can get some sort of economic agreement out of Wilkonia while completely keeping us out of any formal treaty organization. It gets me a chance to keep the Caymans from straying, as they threatened to do briefly, and the chance to work some diplomatic levers to ensure continued compliance with BIOCOM.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:

SiegeTank wrote:

PeZook wrote:Hmm....yeah, now that your remind me. We do have SRB technology from the Lucrelance project, after all

In that case, may I assume Ralson Aerospace will be receiving juicy contracts for helping develop these boosters?

On condition that you work with Byzantine Aeronautics/Kontos Munitions Rocketry . I actually authorised funding for solid fueled rocket boosters, though I never got around to post it. These solid fueled rocket boosters on spec are meant to match those used in the Shuttle program.

Actually its that tech base that I'm planning to tap for the Ares program. Since the Ares I is essentially a 5.5 segment Shuttle SRB the MSA is going to need somebody (preferably already within the organization) to contract out the work. My vastly more detailed flight schedule has the first Ares I test flight set for Q3 of 2017 with full operational capability (including the J-2X instead of the J-2S second stage motor) in Q1 2019. The Ares V is waiting on development of the RS-68B. Since the RS-68 first comes online in Q3 2015 the -68B (and in paticular the 5 engine cluster that the Ares V uses) will have to wait for Q1 2020.


So anyway long story less long Byzantine Aeronautics is going to see some bid paperwork come their way probably by about 2014/2015 for a 5.5 segment (rather than the 4 segment Shuttle variant) SRB.\ with an upgraded engine variant of the same 5.5 segment SRB set to be deployed by program acceptance in 2022.



Total aside, yes I do have both military and space spending priorities set as far as 2025 gametime or January 2010 realtime.

PeZook wrote:Hmm..so we basically have parity when it comes to the light and medium weight boosters, while the Ares V will outperform anything we have planned, including the Energia-Vulkan.

What is your rough timeline right now for FASTA lift capacity? The reason I ask is that I want to make sure that I am not somehow over-selling the development timeline for the MSA. I know that the high end boosters are essentially only for governmental institutions because no communciations satellite is remotely likely to need to get 10 tonnes up to GTO.


Total aside but most of those numbers are to GTO instead of LEO. I mention this because those numbers are indicative of total vehicle launch weight for a combined satellite and positioning rocket to get up to geosynch. The LEO numbers are anywhere from 200-300% greater depending upon specific orbit. Only the Ares program number is expressed in terms of LEO payload.

PeZook wrote:Uh...you better hope your trajectories are real goddamn awesome, because there's no way a LEO spysat can avoid overflying both Japanistan and the CSR.

Yeah, like they're going to shoot at every orbiting tin can that approaches their airspace. I think we all know that's not realistic, but if they want to try it we'll be more than happy to humor them and throw some cheap steel footballs their way, just to see how much cash they'll waste on ASAT missiles before they recognize the futility of trying to stop ALL satellite overflights.

And my trajectories are real goddamn awesome, but that goes without saying...

SiegeTank wrote:

PeZook wrote:Uh...you better hope your trajectories are real goddamn awesome, because there's no way a LEO spysat can avoid overflying both Japanistan and the CSR.

Yeah, like they're going to shoot at every orbiting tin can that approaches their airspace. I think we all know that's not realistic, but if they want to try it we'll be more than happy to humor them and throw some cheap steel footballs their way, just to see how much cash they'll waste on ASAT missiles before they recognize the futility of trying to stop ALL satellite overflights.

Dude at upwards of $40mil per launch before payload and infrastructure costs you will run out of money a long time before either the IRT or Japanistan run out of ASAT money. For comparison purposes a Delta II launch today costs in the neighborhood of 45-55mil before payload costs whereas a RIM-161 SM-3 BMD (which can reach roughly the 250km ceiling) is 9.5mil a piece. Assuming a more costly variant to get upwards to 400km for the majority of LEOs [ISS is at roughly 320-320] and a 50% cost increase that's 15mil a piece.

So if you spend $50mil to launch and they shoot 2 ASATs, 1 each, for $30mil who runs out of money first?

And my trajectories are real goddamn awesome, but that goes without saying...

They are, are they? Hmmm, is that a challenege?

So, who wants sub delivered wines from the Vineyards?

So, starting next year, I'm going to be in the market for new ground-attack aircraft, bombers, and interceptors; those surplus aircraft I purchased from Shepistan a while back (B-56G and derivatives, F-105K, F-106H) were only really intended to be a stopgap measure until I could gather enough funds to get better planes. I'll also be needing plenty of helicopters for my Army, Navy, and Marine Corps. What choices do I have?

First, they don't need to shoot at the footballs: the KH-11 is a 10 tonne space telescope, which means it's really disctintive. At worst, the CSR can just steal the information on which satellite is a keyhole and which ain't, then shoot at the keyholes. Then there's Wilken's (excellent) point, too...

On trajectories, it's pretty damn hard to plot a LEO orbit which avoids a specific area of the Earth, and obviously the bigger the area, the worse it becomes. Japanistan and CSR make the problem unique, because inclinations that would avoid Japanistan fly you over the CSR and vice versa

PeZook wrote:On trajectories, it's pretty damn hard to plot a LEO orbit which avoids a specific area of the Earth, and obviously the bigger the area, the worse it becomes. Japanistan and CSR make the problem unique, because inclinations that would avoid Japanistan fly you over the CSR and vice versa

So our 'rar kill all overflights' countries just happen to be perfectly placed to shoot anything and everything down, way to go, Map Maker.

Karmic Knight wrote:

PeZook wrote:On trajectories, it's pretty damn hard to plot a LEO orbit which avoids a specific area of the Earth, and obviously the bigger the area, the worse it becomes. Japanistan and CSR make the problem unique, because inclinations that would avoid Japanistan fly you over the CSR and vice versa

So our 'rar kill all overflights' countries just happen to be perfectly placed to shoot anything and everything down, way to go, Map Maker.

Yet at the same time none has a dedicated ASAT program, or at least no publicly announced program. So far as I am aware the MESS "New Horizons" program is the only one to formally designate an ASAT missile (the RIM-172 ASAT) which, and I used the performance numbers that are the "public record" numbers for it in my comparison. That is we currently have a missile with a 400km ceiling at $15mil per unit. The warhead carried, downrange limit, etc are all classified. At the same time if you have a REAL low LEO (<250km) then my regular SM-4 BMD should be able to intercept as well and that sucker is only $8mil each.

IRT and Japanistan never announced ASAT programs and while Skimmer withdrew formally phongn hasn't posted so he could technically be putting one through the paces. I may have missed something from Stas but I'm pretty sure he has a solid IADS but I haven't seen anything ASAT-wise.

So yeah right now the folks who COULD shoot you down probably won't...probably.

Shinn Langley Soryu wrote:So, starting next year, I'm going to be in the market for new ground-attack aircraft, bombers, and interceptors; those surplus aircraft I purchased from Shepistan a while back (B-56G and derivatives, F-105K, F-106H) were only really intended to be a stopgap measure until I could gather enough funds to get better planes. I'll also be needing plenty of helicopters for my Army, Navy, and Marine Corps. What choices do I have?

I do have a Eurofighter Tranche IV aircraft with conformal fuel tanks, 6 point IRST,AESA radar, thrust vectoring engines, supercruise, modern electronic warfare units etc. It's quite a different plane from the other Eurofighter aircraft, though not really stealthy. The whole idea is a relatively cheaper aircraft but good enough to do air superiority and Closed Air Support missions. There's also the MiG-31T which is really a all composite-Titanium aircraft that does MACH 3.2 (and possibly above). The Su-39BM is also on offer with Western electronics for CAS. Tu-22BM, Tu-142/95.

Since Stas isn't really playing these days, I guess I will offer his Su-27 variants with AESA and modern electronics. The same applies for MiG-29. Helicopters, anything the Russians have. (Note that the variants I have are Westernised electronics)

CmdrWilkens wrote:Yet at the same time none has a dedicated ASAT program, or at least no publicly announced program. So far as I am aware the MESS "New Horizons" program is the only one to formally designate an ASAT missile (the RIM-172 ASAT) which, and I used the performance numbers that are the "public record" numbers for it in my comparison. That is we currently have a missile with a 400km ceiling at $15mil per unit. The warhead carried, downrange limit, etc are all classified. At the same time if you have a REAL low LEO (<250km) then my regular SM-4 BMD should be able to intercept as well and that sucker is only $8mil each.

IRT and Japanistan never announced ASAT programs and while Skimmer withdrew formally phongn hasn't posted so he could technically be putting one through the paces. I may have missed something from Stas but I'm pretty sure he has a solid IADS but I haven't seen anything ASAT-wise.

So yeah right now the folks who COULD shoot you down probably won't...probably.

No one would shoot now, actually. But if we are going to be realistic about it, since Japanistan has MiG-31 analogues (last I checked before Skimmer took off his OOB), they can shoot down Satellites.

Stas did shoot down some MESS sats before he retconed it.

Shinn Langley Soryu wrote:So, starting next year, I'm going to be in the market for new ground-attack aircraft, bombers, and interceptors; those surplus aircraft I purchased from Shepistan a while back (B-56G and derivatives, F-105K, F-106H) were only really intended to be a stopgap measure until I could gather enough funds to get better planes. I'll also be needing plenty of helicopters for my Army, Navy, and Marine Corps. What choices do I have?

I can manufacture Lightning fighters and bombers for you, if you're interested. They're solid 4th-generation aircraft. I currently have no 5th-gen for sale, but that's only because I don't even have a full wing of my own yet.

Oh, by the way, Karmic, I'd like for our intelligence services to collaborate on this terrorist attack.

Shinn Langley Soryu wrote:So, starting next year, I'm going to be in the market for new ground-attack aircraft, bombers, and interceptors; those surplus aircraft I purchased from Shepistan a while back (B-56G and derivatives, F-105K, F-106H) were only really intended to be a stopgap measure until I could gather enough funds to get better planes. I'll also be needing plenty of helicopters for my Army, Navy, and Marine Corps. What choices do I have?

If you are looking for CAS then there is nothing better than the AC-130


As an aside I do have A-10s right now and mid-range plans call for a complete overhaul of the WAS tactical aircraft component. If you want to get the second stage deliveries you can sign up now for the final product and probably not have to invest more than a few mil over the next couple of years until an actual marketable craft is up for inspection.


Obviously there are quite a few countries with F-22s and MiG-31s available for interceptors. If you are looking for heavy bombers then the B-1 is probably your best bet and its got a pretty decent sales base worldwide.

Shinn Langley Soryu wrote:So, starting next year, I'm going to be in the market for new ground-attack aircraft, bombers, and interceptors; those surplus aircraft I purchased from Shepistan a while back (B-56G and derivatives, F-105K, F-106H) were only really intended to be a stopgap measure until I could gather enough funds to get better planes. I'll also be needing plenty of helicopters for my Army, Navy, and Marine Corps. What choices do I have?

The Old Dominion has Chesapeake Arms CA101s for a good Utility Helo, with variants for both the Army and Navy. AH-1Zs are also manufactured in the OD.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Since Stas isn't really playing these days, I guess I will offer his Su-27 variants with AESA and modern electronics. The same applies for MiG-29. Helicopters, anything the Russians have. (Note that the variants I have are Westernised electronics)

About that, can you get me Carrier-Capable Su-27s? If so, how much?

Ryan Thunder wrote:Oh, by the way, Karmic, I'd like for our intelligence services to collaborate on this terrorist attack.

Sure thing, just know VEIL will be using this as an opportunity to infiltrate your Intelligence agency or agencies.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:I do have a Eurofighter Tranche IV aircraft with conformal fuel tanks, 6 point IRST,AESA radar, thrust vectoring engines, supercruise, modern electronic warfare units etc. It's quite a different plane from the other Eurofighter aircraft, though not really stealthy. The whole idea is a relatively cheaper aircraft but good enough to do air superiority and Closed Air Support missions. There's also the MiG-31T which is really a all composite-Titanium aircraft that does MACH 3.2 (and possibly above). The Su-39BM is also on offer with Western electronics for CAS. Tu-22BM, Tu-142/95.

Since Stas isn't really playing these days, I guess I will offer his Su-27 variants with AESA and modern electronics. The same applies for MiG-29. Helicopters, anything the Russians have. (Note that the variants I have are Westernised electronics)

Concerning the Typhoon Tranche IV, personally I don't see much of a difference between it and the modified F-16XLs I already have, save for the thrust vectoring and reduced range and payload compared to said F-16XLs. I'd rather just order more F-16XLs from Shroomania instead.

I was actually considering buying MiG-31s in the past; all I want to know is how much per plane and if the T model is compatible with NATO ordinance. I also have 48 slightly modified Su-25s in my inventory; how much would it cost to have them upgraded to Su-39 standard? In addition, how much would a new-build Su-39 cost?

I'm going to hold off on choosing my heavy bomber replacement until I can get some more pricing info on the Tu-95 and Tu-22M's competitors, though I am in need of something to replace my CP-140 Auroras. How much does the Tu-142 cost?

As for the rest of the Russian stuff, what I'd be most interested in right now would be a NATO-compatible version of the MiG-27 as a replacement for my F-105Ks. However, I know that Tian Xia offers upgraded A-7s, so I'd like to see if Beowulf can come up with a competing offer first.

On one last note, I noticed in your order of battle that you have a few An-22s outfitted as gunships. I'm curious as to what kind of weapons configuration you have for them, as I've been toying with a similar idea for my own An-22s for some time.

Ryan Thunder wrote:I can manufacture Lightning fighters and bombers for you, if you're interested. They're solid 4th-generation aircraft. I currently have no 5th-gen for sale, but that's only because I don't even have a full wing of my own yet.

I'm not really all that interested in the Lightning, though I am quite curious about those SR-71 analogues you have. How much would a basic aircraft cost, and could it be modified to be more along the lines of an F-12?

CmdrWilkens wrote:If you are looking for CAS then there is nothing better than the AC-130


As an aside I do have A-10s right now and mid-range plans call for a complete overhaul of the WAS tactical aircraft component. If you want to get the second stage deliveries you can sign up now for the final product and probably not have to invest more than a few mil over the next couple of years until an actual marketable craft is up for inspection.


Obviously there are quite a few countries with F-22s and MiG-31s available for interceptors. If you are looking for heavy bombers then the B-1 is probably your best bet and its got a pretty decent sales base worldwide.

I already have two AC-130s in service right now, actually. Would new-build AC-130s be built from C-130J airframes, complete with digital cockpit and six-bladed props, or would they still use H-model airframes? Also, would they use dual 30mm Bushmaster IIs or the original GAU-12 Equalizer and Bofors L/60 combo?

As for the A-10s, I'm already using Su-25s, so they'd be a bit redundant. Also, who makes B-1s, and how much would they go for?

Finally, while I'm at it, I'll take you up on your previous offer for UH-60s and CH-53Ks. For now, 156 UH-60s of various types (48 SH-60 Seahawks, the rest regular Black Hawks) and 54 CH-53Ks (12 Sea Dragons, 42 Super Stallions) should do, plus some extra money to rebuild my existing E-model Super Stallions and Sea Dragons to K standard.

Lonestar wrote:The Old Dominion has Chesapeake Arms CA101s for a good Utility Helo, with variants for both the Army and Navy. AH-1Zs are also manufactured in the OD.

I'm not too keen on buying CA101s in large numbers, seeing as I'm already a major operator of the UH-60 and its derivatives. I'm definitely in need of AH-1Zs, though; how much do they cost per unit?

Attack: A-7L (engine of your choice: F100, F110, F119, F120) includes AESA radar. Semisubmerged hardpoints for AIM-120 missiles. Cheek hardpoints can be fitted for firing AIM-9/132 class missiles. 6 wing hardpoints rated 2.5klbs, 5000 lbs, and 5000lbs (per wing). A-7G derivative.

Interceptor: F-12L. Derivative of the R-1 Habu. M3.2+ capable. AESA radar.

Bomber: B-1L (notice a suffix scheme?). B-1C derivative with choice of engines: F110, F119, F120. AESA radar provides ground and air modes. External weapons carriage available. $350 million/aircraft

Attack Helicopter: AH-64D Longbow

Utility Helicopter: UH-60M

Marine Utility Helicopter: MH-60S

Maritime Attack: MH-60R

Cargo Helicopter: CH-53K - no rebuilds of E models. Changes in dimensions make it technically infeasible without costing almost as much as a new bird.