Re: SDN World 3 Commentary Thread III
Posted: 2010-03-08 07:03am
nvm.
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Did you even read my post? I did not reinforce the IO squadrons. In fact, my characters explicitly state that they cannot do so. Heck, last quarter I even withdrew three BBs from there. What I will do is put a few more coastal guns in Berbera.Steve wrote: Then Dominion has a training exercise for laying a barrage - a good way to determine the operational system and work out obvious kinks - and Germany goes ballistic, believing it a betrayal of "it's only a study" remark, and reinforces its IO squadrons
Only if you somehow missed a lot of my post.That about sum it up?
I do not think they are pro-German. The Egyptians however most likely "support" Germany (if you can call an exchange of information support) because when you get the perception your holdings are threatened, it is good to have some friendly relationships with powers that might be able to help out? Oh, and because Germany is one of the heaviest users of the Suez canal?If so, why the heck are Egypt and Byzantium being pro-German when it's clear it's primarily a misunderstanding?
Do you see anybody expressing that opinion? Certainly not me.And what has Lonestar's government done to make anyone believe he's about to attack the holdings of a European power along the Indian Ocean?
WTF? I did not even take part in SDNW2.I can't help but think some of this is certain players acting IC on OOC attitudes about Lonestar, particularly his behavior in SDNW2. We went through this shit over the Soviet-Manchurian War and we went through it over Czechmate's presence in the game and I am tired of it. I know it's not something you can easily dump but, for the sake of RP, please try?
Yeah, but somehow I had a brain worm in my head that said you reinforced.Thanas wrote:Eh...WTF?
Did you even read my post? I did not reinforce the IO squadrons. In fact, my characters explicitly state that they cannot do so. Heck, last quarter I even withdrew three BBs from there. What I will do is put a few more coastal guns in Berbera.Steve wrote: Then Dominion has a training exercise for laying a barrage - a good way to determine the operational system and work out obvious kinks - and Germany goes ballistic, believing it a betrayal of "it's only a study" remark, and reinforces its IO squadrons
I read it, but I forgot. Part of the reason I posted that bit was, in fact, to see if there was anything I was missing.Only if you somehow missed a lot of my post.That about sum it up?
I liked Siege's reason better.I do not think they are pro-German. The Egyptians however most likely "support" Germany (if you can call an exchange of information support) because when you get the perception your holdings are threatened, it is good to have some friendly relationships with powers that might be able to help out? Oh, and because Germany is one of the heaviest users of the Suez canal?If so, why the heck are Egypt and Byzantium being pro-German when it's clear it's primarily a misunderstanding?
No, but OTOH it does seem that people are all the sudden getting antsy about the Grand Dominion for what was, essentially, an exercise in mine warfare, to the point that you had your leaders declare their leader not trustworthy because his Navy dared to exercise the laying of mines (How is that inconsistent with prior remarks on the mine barrage concept being an internal study? You study it, you use exercises to determine characteristics of the operation that are relevant to the study and final determination of worth). So clearly you do have concerns about the future behavior of the Dominion. Mostly, I'm sure, wrapped up in the prospect of a mine barrage across the Gulf of Aden, though it seems more likely it'll be done over to the tip of Oman to try and bottle up the Shepistani Navy.Do you see anybody expressing that opinion? Certainly not me.And what has Lonestar's government done to make anyone believe he's about to attack the holdings of a European power along the Indian Ocean?
Hence the term "certain players", and one of them I was thinking of did, in fact, point out his IC motivations for this, and I have to agree they're valid. Rather aggressive, but valid.WTF? I did not even take part in SDNW2.I can't help but think some of this is certain players acting IC on OOC attitudes about Lonestar, particularly his behavior in SDNW2. We went through this shit over the Soviet-Manchurian War and we went through it over Czechmate's presence in the game and I am tired of it. I know it's not something you can easily dump but, for the sake of RP, please try?
So now I've got it from your end and I see what's going on.Anyway, here is my perception on the issue:
- The Dominion makes a study about mining the IO.
- Germany gets concerned (no wonder when a lot of your trade goes through there - probably 40% or so of my trade) and receives a reply stating that a) It is only a study and b) were it enacted, the dominion would need to expand its capabilities tremendously
- Then, we have an exercise where the Dominion just happens to expand their capabilities by using converted merchant ships etc. When asked about this, the response is basically: "no, we do not plan to mine the Gulf of Aden and mind your own business". Despite it being clear that such a capability can be trivially easily used to mine the Gulf of Aden.
- Germany responds by saying "I hope you understand our concern" and asks other nations to built an information network so that everybody gets an early warning if such an attempt would be made.
- Dominion response: "HELP. THE GERMANS ARE PLANNING TO ATTACK US."
Right. Have I reinforced the squadrons? No. Have I put marines into the Indian Ocean? No. Did I relocate more airplanes there? No. Any more subs? No. Troop transports? No. Did I in any way increase the presence there? Nope.
Given the undeclared naval war the merchant shipping thing has some logic, save that you need to count a ship's captain being part of a corrupt clique blackmailing merchants (and getting punished for it at least).All that has happened is that the German Empire is formalizing local exchanges of information that are probably already in place informally. If anybody is blowing a fuse over the issue, it is the Dominion.
What is happening is that both the Dominion and Germany are playing up the threat at the moment. Sänger is a bit paranoid about the Dominion mining the Gulf of Aden (why? Well, it is not like the Dominion has not acted irrationally before, right? Remember the "hey, let's intercept merchant shipping for shits and giggles"?), but it is not as if he is sending the HSF to the IO to blockade the Dominion.
AFAIK Sänger has never expressed that opinion in public. Wilhelm did and it nearly cost him his throne. And even if Sänger would stand on the copula of the Reichstag wearing a banner "Fairfax is a big fat liar" that would be pretty tame considering the recent official and on the record remarks by Fairfax's government. Seriously, the remarks of the Dominion are a whole different ballgame.Steve wrote:No, but OTOH it does seem that people are all the sudden getting antsy about the Grand Dominion for what was, essentially, an exercise in mine warfare, to the point that you had your leaders declare their leader not trustworthy because his Navy dared to exercise the laying of mines
Given that every attempt at a detente seems to be met with more Dominion provocation, I'd rather not take any chances.(How is that inconsistent with prior remarks on the mine barrage concept being an internal study? You study it, you use exercises to determine characteristics of the operation that are relevant to the study and final determination of worth). So clearly you do have concerns about the future behavior of the Dominion. Mostly, I'm sure, wrapped up in the prospect of a mine barrage across the Gulf of Aden, though it seems more likely it'll be done over to the tip of Oman to try and bottle up the Shepistani Navy.
Well since Fin does not appear to have claimed it after all I'll stick to it. After all Lonestar and Ma Deuce between them seem to have claimed nearly every British possesion in the Indian ocean.Steve wrote:Well, it's colored purple on the map.
Not that it'd be too useful as a naval base due to the high cliffs on one side and shallow waters on the other. IIRC main access to the island today is by air, not sea.
Thanas wrote: It is getting pretty tiresome. I have not one single modern unit deployed to the IO. Not one marine brigade. Yet somehow the Dominion sees that as impending invasion. Apparently, any attempt to decrease forces in the IO will be met with more Dominion whining and strength is the only language they understand. No matter what Germany tries to do, it cannot stop wasting forces in the IO. Heck, I proposed a scheme that would all but eliminate German presence there a while back, the Dominion refused.
Eh...no. You stated the safety of those ships would be taken into account, the German Government accepted that.Lonestar wrote:I might add that going back and looking through the those Diplomatic notes in reference to the mine-barrage scheme, We stated that it was a scheme for blocking in Shepistan and you responded with "We have German naval vessels that escort convoys into Shepistan, what about THEM, huh?"(which is as good as saying that you will go to war with the Grand Dominion if myself and Shep go all out).
The Sheppos were offered the same deal, I received no reply on the matter. At least I tried to deescalate the situation.Lonestar wrote:Nooooooo you didn't. You offered to remove escorts for vessels going to the Grand Dominion if the Dominion picks up the slack, which would have the effect of watering down the assets the GDN has on hand while allowing the Sheppos to continue to enjoy German protection for vessels bound for their country.
Thank you muchly for the deletion of the doublepost; but, as far as the Soviets go, I don't think I'm up to it. What with a kid and a vacation I've got to plan, I don't think I'd have time to do what I'd want/need to do with the MOTHERLAND, especially given the backstory adn effort given to it by Stas and yourself.Thanas wrote:Doublepost deleted due to request by author.
EDIT: Glad to hear that, Akhlut. Though I was kinda hoping you would take over the USSR...
Indeed the Dominion did state that. I believe the hypothetical staff discussion was something like: "What about the safety of the German convoy escorts?" "Well, sucks to be them in that scenario". Completely taken into account.Thanas wrote: Eh...no. You stated the safety of those ships would be taken into account, the German Government accepted that.
To be fair, if the Dominion ends up at war with Shepistan they have a distinct naval disadvantage already and the mine barrage plan is a proposal to try and confine the numerically superior Shepistani fleet to one region. And given it means the entire area becomes a war zone anyway, I can see why they might not rank the safety of German escorts near the top. That's the risk of running such convoys in a potential war zone.Thanas wrote:^See, this is what I mean by the Dominion not trying to act in good faith. Oh well, guess I have to become a bit more aggressive.
Hey, that is not why I am making that statement. It would be ridiculously easy for the Dominion to simply make a notification or instruct the pilots aboard the german ships to not enter into area XY.Steve wrote:To be fair, if the Dominion ends up at war with Shepistan they have a distinct naval disadvantage already and the mine barrage plan is a proposal to try and confine the numerically superior Shepistani fleet to one region. And given it means the entire area becomes a war zone anyway, I can see why they might not rank the safety of German escorts near the top. That's the risk of running such convoys in a potential war zone.Thanas wrote:^See, this is what I mean by the Dominion not trying to act in good faith. Oh well, guess I have to become a bit more aggressive.
I thought it is.Steve wrote:To play devil's advocate, if they tell the Germans how to avoid the mines - presuming the barrage isn't meant to be as close to a complete seal as it can be, a la the British North Sea barrage
True, which is wh I wrote:Steve wrote: - then the Shepistanis may find out in various ways (bribing the German pilots, having agents aboard German ships, or just observing the German traffic) and the barrage becomes a massive waste in manpower and material..
Steve wrote:6. However, it is more likely that in the event of announced widespread mining, German shipping to that area will cease entirely.
^ See, this is why people say Germans are humorless poo-poo heads. If you need a specific plan for the safety of German Naval vessels its this: Any German vessels stuck on the "other side" of the mine barrage at the time of laying will be forwarded a course through by way of the German embassy in Shepistan. The corridor will remain open for a week, and then the GDN will mine that shut as well. A similiar offer will be given to Greek ships stuck in the Arabian Gulf.Thanas wrote:^See, this is what I mean by the Dominion not trying to act in good faith. Oh well, guess I have to become a bit more aggressive.