StarDestroyer.Net BBS

CmdrWilkens wrote: Such a plan is in place and will be communicated to the mods if Colombia doesn't agree to an outright surrender (which oddly enough would probably cause me more problems with the US as you say than a somewhat less one sided result)

After all that talking about "the world would get upset over naked land grabs", you're doing a naked land grab

MKSheppard wrote:

CmdrWilkens wrote: Such a plan is in place and will be communicated to the mods if Colombia doesn't agree to an outright surrender (which oddly enough would probably cause me more problems with the US as you say than a somewhat less one sided result)

After all that talking about "the world would get upset over naked land grabs", you're doing a naked land grab

More like "The world would get upset over a naked land grab with absolutely no attention paid to legality". Mexico has a (very slight) cause to deal with Gran Colombia.

MKSheppard wrote:

CmdrWilkens wrote: Such a plan is in place and will be communicated to the mods if Colombia doesn't agree to an outright surrender (which oddly enough would probably cause me more problems with the US as you say than a somewhat less one sided result)

After all that talking about "the world would get upset over naked land grabs", you're doing a naked land grab

Umm I never had issue with land grabs, what France and Germany are engaged in would certainly fall within that. What I objected to, and continue to object to, is unilateral aggression without any attention paid the the formalities of the process. Germany and France both issued ultimatums and gave cause. The reason I objected to Portgual was that they issued no ultimatum and attacked without cause. Mexico, in this case, has forwarded a grievance and an ultimatum on Colombia to which they have declined to accede thus the justification for war.

If you can't tell the difference then you are gonna have a hard time playing proper early 20th century diplomacy...that and its not a land grab, its severing Panama from Colombia while Mexico would simply hold suzerainty over the new nation not be its colonial master in any way.

Steve wrote:

Ryan Thunder wrote:Well, sorry. The Pact is in force, however.

I've no problem with, say, retconning the ultimatum if you wish to do so. We can just carry on as if it never happened.

If Wilkens wants to do that he can, but if anything's getting retconned short of Wilkens asking for that it's your Pact.

Steve on that note I sent all 3 mods the plan of action but I'd like a ruling on the pact before there is a ruling on my plan. I'm going to put a placeholder post in the IG thread just for the sake of the timeline.

And since we don't have a separate tank/aircraft design thread...

T-25 Leone Medium tank

Combat Weight: 16t
Engine: 120hp
Speed: 21 kph
Gun: L32 47mm, 4 MG
Crew: 5
Armor Hull Front: 40mm
Hull Sides: 30mm
Turret Front: 40mm
Turret Sides: 30mm

Essentially a British Mark II medium tank with weight increased by a third to allow for armor levels comparable to Renault NC

CmdrWilkens wrote:The reason I objected to Portgual was that they issued no ultimatum and attacked without cause.

.........

If you can't tell the difference then you are gonna have a hard time playing proper early 20th century diplomacy...

1905 Port Arthur Attack? 1941 Pearl Harbor Attack anyone?

Well it sucks that a bunch of people are quitting. I don't mind if Lascaris wants to take over Brazil and have cisplatina disappear, though that will play merry hell with what we've already posted. I'll echo what others have said and ask those leaving to reconsider. The game is young and nothing much has happened yet. Besides, I thought the whole reason for doing this era was more warfare and once the wars start people duck out? I know there have been some problems but I think they can be worked out.

On another note I've got my orbat updated. We may well have a huge war in South America soon as Chilitina will not sit idly by if all the communists join together against Mexico. If that happens, what is to stop them from attacking me once they are finished? Of course now is a terrible time for me to get involved in a war as most of the army is reorganizing, but that just makes it more interesting......

Las now just desires to have Cisplatina to the full size he initially envisioned at Brazil's expense.

Steve wrote:Las now just desires to have Cisplatina to the full size he initially envisioned at Brazil's expense.

do we have any idea what will happen to Brazil yet?

Steve wrote:

Ryan Thunder wrote:Well, sorry. The Pact is in force, however.

I've no problem with, say, retconning the ultimatum if you wish to do so. We can just carry on as if it never happened.

If Wilkens wants to do that he can, but if anything's getting retconned short of Wilkens asking for that it's your Pact.

How exactly do you plan to retcon a mutual defense pact? Forbid my allies from assisting me?

No, the simplest answer is that, if Wilkins doesn't feel like pushing his luck, he can retcon his ultimatum, and I'll pretend it never happened. Hell, I was thinking of approaching him with plans for a rail connection prior to that...

Raj Ahten wrote:

Steve wrote:Las now just desires to have Cisplatina to the full size he initially envisioned at Brazil's expense.

do we have any idea what will happen to Brazil yet?

NPC unless someone steps forward.

Ryan Thunder wrote:

Steve wrote:

Ryan Thunder wrote:Well, sorry. The Pact is in force, however.

I've no problem with, say, retconning the ultimatum if you wish to do so. We can just carry on as if it never happened.

If Wilkens wants to do that he can, but if anything's getting retconned short of Wilkens asking for that it's your Pact.

How exactly do you plan to retcon a mutual defense pact? Forbid my allies from assisting me?

Something like that....

No, the simplest answer is that, if Wilkins doesn't feel like pushing his luck, he can retcon his ultimatum, and I'll pretend it never happened. Hell, I was thinking of approaching him with plans for a rail connection prior to that...

You mean we should reward you and Norse for either laziness or dishonesty?

Alright I'll stay on for a bit longer since Lascaris has gracefully agreed to handle the dull, boring business of doing my construction queue and finishing my airforce OoB. I'll be reading the back posts and working up a story post before too long.

Steve wrote:

Ryan Thunder wrote:
If Wilkens wants to do that he can, but if anything's getting retconned short of Wilkens asking for that it's your Pact.

How exactly do you plan to retcon a mutual defense pact? Forbid my allies from assisting me?

Something like that....
[/quote]

If Brazil or for that matter anyone else decides it is in its interest to intervene in the war... As said Cisplatina has no treaty with either Mexico or Gran Colombia but we are very carefully considering our options particularly in view of the blockade of the Panama canal...

Steve wrote:You mean we should reward you and Norse for either laziness or dishonesty?

As opposed to rewarding Wilkins for ignoring my diplomats and diplomatic letters to other countries?

As I recall you rejected his initial demands for investigations.

And really, as stated, nothing's stopping you from getting Brazil and others as allies anyway, I'm just not inclined to let your belated treaty talks stand.

Norseman wrote:Alright I'll stay on for a bit longer since Lascaris has gracefully agreed to handle the dull, boring business of doing my construction queue and finishing my airforce OoB. I'll be reading the back posts and working up a story post before too long.

Hahaha. Fucking A did I call it.

CmdrWilkens wrote:If you can't tell the difference then you are gonna have a hard time playing proper early 20th century diplomacy...that and its not a land grab, its severing Panama from Colombia while Mexico would simply hold suzerainty over the new nation not be its colonial master in any way.

So, a thinly-veiled land grab as opposed to a naked one.

Just for that, I'm hitting the reset button on Nicaragua. Where's your canal being built again? (common knowledge ftw.)

Steve wrote:As I recall you rejected his initial demands for investigations.

Yes. Because I won't stand to have Mexican federal agents harrassing University of Panama City faculty members for things they simply don't have time to do.

When he issued that time-limited note, I sent over a diplomat to negotiate a compromise, whom he chose to ignore. Then he issued an ultimatum. I had to tell him to go fuck himself on principle, of course, and so, here we are.

And really, as stated, nothing's stopping you from getting Brazil and others as allies anyway, I'm just not inclined to let your belated treaty talks stand.

Oh, so only cosmetic changes, then. Well, sure whatever. Not sure why you'd bother, in that case, though.

Ryan Thunder wrote: Just for that, I'm hitting the reset button on Nicaragua. Where's your canal being built again? (common knowledge ftw.)

"Reset button"?

When he issued that time-limited note, I sent over a diplomat to negotiate a compromise, whom he chose to ignore. Then he issued an ultimatum. I had to tell him to go fuck himself on principle, of course, and so, here we are.

Clearly a diplomat to prevaricate and delay so you could cover for those responsible for the violence!

Oh, so only cosmetic changes, then. Well, sure whatever. Not sure why you'd bother, in that case, though.

Well, with no treaty it's clearly another case of Socialist nations fighting an anti-Socialist nation, meaning Mexico could expect support from anti-Socialists.

That said, I'm sure Wilkens calculated the risk of having to face Brazil anyway and decided it was worthwhile, so the offer to retcon the ultimatum is kinda unnecessary.

I will not be able to play anymore because I do not have time. Please consider all trade agreements signed by Peru-Bolivia as standing. Players are welcome to adopt the country (perhaps changing its nature through elections if necessary) or play the country during wartime if they so desire.

Evincer wrote:I will not be able to play anymore because I do not have time. Please consider all trade agreements signed by Peru-Bolivia as standing. Players are welcome to adopt the country (perhaps changing its nature through elections if necessary) or play the country during wartime if they so desire.

Well you could always go on hiatus for awhile instead of outright quitting. Heck, I've done it when work or the like have eaten up too much time.

Those of you bowing out, bear in mind that nowhere is it written that you have to post once a day (or more). I am not the only one who has gone many days without posting. There's no need to stress out and try to pull Hemingway out your ass every day!

Ryan Thunder wrote:

CmdrWilkens wrote:If you can't tell the difference then you are gonna have a hard time playing proper early 20th century diplomacy...that and its not a land grab, its severing Panama from Colombia while Mexico would simply hold suzerainty over the new nation not be its colonial master in any way.

So, a thinly-veiled land grab as opposed to a naked one.

Just for that, I'm hitting the reset button on Nicaragua. Where's your canal being built again? (common knowledge ftw.)

Okay since I'm not going to keep Panama (it would be an independent NPC with Mexican suzerainty only as originally proposed though that may even be amenable to discussion) it woudl be hard to call this a land grab. Also if you are going after Nicaragua where the canal is being built that would be the border with Costa Rica the former nation of which is a client (colony) of mine and the later of which is a close friend if not formal ally in the form of being a Spanish colony so I'm not sure what kind of "reset button" you would engage in.

And really, as stated, nothing's stopping you from getting Brazil and others as allies anyway, I'm just not inclined to let your belated treaty talks stand.

Oh, so only cosmetic changes, then. Well, sure whatever. Not sure why you'd bother, in that case, though.

Because it would take 2-3 days after the ultimatum to get a diplomatic team together and even if there was broad agreement it would take another week to formalize an alliance AFTER the fact (since Brazil and others would have to ask what are you going to offer them in return for bailing you out against me) then they would have to mobilize and actually send forces. In other words the earliest your new allies could be on scene is two weeks or so after hostilities open...and that GREATLY affects planning. I don't need to have the fight be against you only, I just need it to be against you only for a little over a week.

Lascaris wrote:If Brazil or for that matter anyone else decides it is in its interest to intervene in the war... As said Cisplatina has no treaty with either Mexico or Gran Colombia but we are very carefully considering our options particularly in view of the blockade of the Panama canal...

I'm not blockading the Panama canal. I'm blockading Colombia which involves search and detention of contraband traveling through the canal (since it serves as the most obvious choke point). Anyway with international observers onboard this means that neutral shipping won't be touched as I can only seize contraband and then send the ships on their merry way under proper prize rules. Now Colombian flagged shipping, that I can seize after giving them fair time to evacuate the war zone. Hell I can't even seize cargo and ships with the Colombian flag that are at sea now at least until they have had reasonable chance to be made aware of the status of belligerency and make alternative arrangements.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:As for Karmic, he has occasionally disappeared? Or has he quit? He hasn't exactly posted much since the start of the game anyway.

I had disappeared. I do apologize, I have had either bronchitis or pneumonia for the past week or so. Now, about the war, I plan on making some PMs with diplomatic dealings tonight.

CmdrWilkens wrote:Okay since I'm not going to keep Panama (it would be an independent NPC with Mexican suzerainty only as originally proposed though that may even be amenable to discussion) it woudl be hard to call this a land grab.

I don't know how it is you envision the people of the Panama region, but its not some kind of separatist-ridden colony, you know. Panama is Gran Colombian proper. You aren't going to be installing a government to manage a new state. You will be managing an occupation of part of an existing one. Panama is as much a part of Gran Colombia as New York is a part of the United States.

Also if you are going after Nicaragua where the canal is being built that would be the border with Costa Rica the former nation of which is a client (colony) of mine and the later of which is a close friend if not formal ally in the form of being a Spanish colony so I'm not sure what kind of "reset button" you would engage in.

Scorched Earth?

Because it would take 2-3 days after the ultimatum to get a diplomatic team together and even if there was broad agreement it would take another week to formalize an alliance AFTER the fact (since Brazil and others would have to ask what are you going to offer them in return for bailing you out against me) then they would have to mobilize and actually send forces. In other words the earliest your new allies could be on scene is two weeks or so after hostilities open...and that GREATLY affects planning.

We've been negotiating for long before that. The pact is not a reaction to your ultimatum, whether you like that or not. I'm not just tossing weeks of negotiations out the fucking window.

I don't need to have the fight be against you only, I just need it to be against you only for a little over a week.

We'll see about that.