SDN World 3 Commentary Thread II

[Thanas]

A quick note - with the assent of Stas and the mods, I will take over combat operations for the Soviet Union for the duration of the manchurian war. I hope to have a manchurian post up by friday, I'll pm it to Beowulf and the mods before I post it.

Germany also has a vested interest in keeping the soviet union alive, seeing as how it supplies most of my grain for the dutch territories, but it will not intervene unless the balance of power is too strongly shifted, which has been my strategy all along.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Germany also has a vested interest in keeping the soviet union alive, seeing as how it supplies most of my grain for the dutch territories, but it will not intervene unless the balance of power is too strongly shifted, which has been my strategy all along.

Join the club, we have badges, shirts, and plenty of guns to spare.

[Thanas]

Alright, huge storypost made, wrapping up the Belgian situation for now. If you think anything is wrong or want to write a post including my characters, don't hesitate to PM me.

Construction Queue and Orbat updated to Oktober 1925. For more details, look at the recent storypost.

[Norade]

Sorry guys work is busy and I just don't have enough time and desire to be part of this game anymore.

[Minister of Pigeonry]

Sorry guys work is busy and I just don't have enough time and desire to be part of this game anymore.

Do I see a unified Iberian Empire on the Horizon? Ahh, I'm terrible. You're done for good? I'm sure they'd let you take some of time off and pick things back up later when you've got more time and such. I find it that if I take small breaks now and again I don't burn myself out.

[Ryan Thunder]

Some semblance of sanity has been brought to my August queue after speaking to Norseman and Lascaris.

[Beowulf]

Yes, it's because I asked him to. And he could come up with a decent reason why attempting to redraw the borders was a good idea (pan-Nordicism).

Glad to see your pet still obeys you without question. Not that there was ever any doubt in my mind.

Ah, so I guess I'm Lonestar's pet for helping him with his takeover of a poor defenseless island in the last game, eh?

[RogueIce]

Since Steve is kinda stealing my thunder, I went ahead and put up an IC post like I've been planning to do once the Panama War got to a certain point. Sorry it's not the greatest but I don't have a ton of time ATM. But the biggest points are there and if anything is a little too undiplomatic or whatever...well those are the rough drafts and my State Department made sure to edit them into appropriate diplomatic notes. So take no offense.

[CmdrWilkens]

Since Steve is kinda stealing my thunder, I went ahead and put up an IC post like I've been planning to do once the Panama War got to a certain point. Sorry it's not the greatest but I don't have a ton of time ATM. But the biggest points are there and if anything is a little too undiplomatic or whatever...well those are the rough drafts and my State Department made sure to edit them into appropriate diplomatic notes. So take no offense.

Well for both of you guys we are only at D+12 so your note is still 2 days away from coming in, after which diplomats would have to be dispatched, a ceasefire line agreed upon, and negotiations begun. Honestly Cuba would have been better since we could get there faster. By calling for a conference in Byzantium you are tacking on a minimum of 5 days in transit.

Simply put ceasefires don't happen immediately they take almost as much negotiation as the final peace mostly because both sides recognize that the line of demarcation for any such ceasefire gives a great deal of weight to further negotiations. As a for example even in modern times when the First Gulf War ended US forces stopped in place and declared a unilateral suspension of hostilities (because they could) but it still took two days to put together a ceasefire conference and most of that day to hammer out the actual ceasefire...that is with modern communication. In this era arranging a ceasefire will likely (even if held close to the zone of interest or with ambassadors given leave to negotiate on the matter) take several days.

So having said that Mexico would prefer that any discussions about the fate of the Western Hemisphere be held within the same. We are willing to be flexible to some degree on the location but would prefer a locale where diplomatic couriers may quickly provide instructions to the Ambassador in Residence to commence any such discussions. On a time line note the US gets its message out on D+14, the Mexican and Colombian responses would likely be either that evening or the next morning, negotiations for a ceasefire line could begin probably between D+17 and D+20. If both sides are at least close enough for an agreement a decisions could likely be reached that day and transmitted to take effect by D+18 to D+21.

If you want things to move faster select a location where we can send couriers with sealed instructions more quickly.

For the record Mexico will provide transport to all observers currently aboard Mexican Naval Vessels who are instructed to attend any such conference.

[CmdrWilkens]

Minor other note since I'm not sure if everyone caught it but Mexico has already pledged to rebuild any damage WE cause to the canal out of our coffers as well as to repay the board members (excepting Colombia) for any loss of revenue due to forced closure or re-routing of traffic out of the canal. Likewise there are observers onboard both my Pacific and Atlantic squadrons who are present to ensure that any sinking or seizure complies with prize rules while I've already stated that claims of improper search, seizure, or detention will be subject to neutral arbitration in a court of common agreement.


In other words I'm gonna pay out for any losses that occur due to the canal being in dangerous waters...its the only sane policy to keep everyone happy.

[Steve]

Well, I contemplated offering to host it myself but figured Gran Colombia might want a state that it can rely upon for neutrality.

Still, I was talking about a conference to settle the final issue, not the ceasefire negotiations themselves. Those would happen here, but the final diplomatic meetings to handle the issue once and for all could be hosted elsewhere.

[Thanas]

A European location might be better since most of the board members are European themselves.

EDIT: In other news, I have planned a tentative soviet build queue. Beware the red tide.

[CmdrWilkens]

All kidding aside the board members have a small vested interest as against Colombia and Mexico themselves. Certainly the board should be represented but I see no reason why they all need a seat at the table as the canal itself while the most valuable item under question in any mediation is not the totality nor even the majority of the matter under discussion.

[Steve]

Yet it does have a place, and more importantly, it's very easy for Colombia and nations sympathetic to it to paint this as a Mexican attempt to monopolize trans-isthmus trade between their new Nicaragua Canal being built and having a puppet state or some other body reliant upon Mexican good will controlling Panama's canal. As it is I believe Mexico will have taken the greater PR hit in this war, though Colombia's taking a prestige hit due to the clear ineffectiveness of their naval forces.

[Steve]

One note to everyone I'd like to make, a little reminder.

This is not SDNW2. There is no MESS and there is no CATO. That. is. ALL.

I have heard and seen quite a bit of maneuvering and recrimination lately that strikes me as being motivated not by legitimate SDNW3 character or geopolitical issues but as the old MESS vs. CATO rivalry from SDNW2 continuing on into this game. I suppose it can't be helped; every war we've had so far has managed to involve an ex-CATO player fighting an ex-MESS player. But when I see OOC arguments or continued disputes and bad blood between players that can only come from the MESS vs. CATO hostility, it gets me irritated. Like this world, SDNW2 was ultimately a game. A game that is now shut down, in part, I think, because everyone realized that the MESS vs. CATO cold war had run its course and could only end in everyone nuking SDNW2 to ash as SDNW1 had suffered.

You have mods this time for a reason; to keep in-game actions from boiling down to who can scream the loudest and convince the other side the back down as happened last time. Please keep this in mind. If you feel we're being unfair, or have failed to address something, there are PM buttons on all our posts. Please PM us. Send a PM to all of us or just one, but at least do so first. Don't come in here screaming about something that happened.

[Czechmate]

In light of the fact that I increasingly view Britain as a leperous, deformed child that I no longer want to babysit, I withdraw my offer to switch to them.

Also, I would deeply appreciate some kind of assurance that Thanas will *only* run Russian affairs with regards to the Russo-Manchurian War and only until my campaign begins, at which point I feel he will have a conflict of interest as player of Germany (which both neighbors and shows little to no good will toward the Scandinavians) and operator of the Russian military.

If, somehow, he were to eliminate that conflict of interest (nonaggression/noninterference pact or other treaty, perhaps?) I'm sure I wouldn't mind facing his mind running the Soviets, with appropriate mod consultation and rolls.

EDIT: I wonder if it would be worth actually listing out my war aims. Maybe it'll reduce the immense fog of confusion and assumption that hangs around here.

[CmdrWilkens]

Bluntly speaking with Germany and Russia enjoying solid commercial relations and the later supplying the former with a good deal of the agricultural products needed it would be a truly odd war in which Germany did not become involved on behalf of the Soviets. In other words unless you can tempt Thanas as operator of Germany with something big enough to back off on a truly necessary relationship then I see no conflict of interest with Thanas playing the role of Soviet field commander.

[Steve]

Bluntly speaking with Germany and Russia enjoying solid commercial relations and the later supplying the former with a good deal of the agricultural products needed it would be a truly odd war in which Germany did not become involved on behalf of the Soviets. In other words unless you can tempt Thanas as operator of Germany with something big enough to back off on a truly necessary relationship then I see no conflict of interest with Thanas playing the role of Soviet field commander.

And in the case of the Nordics Germany would still be a major consumer of Swedish iron and other minerals, so their relationship should be friendly as well and would be if Thanas and Czech hadn't had a few OOC... missteps. Germany is not entirely reliant upon the Soviet Union for what it gets from them, plus there was no WWI to create the "pariah alliance" at Rapallo, and Imperial Germany and the Soviet Union realistically would dislike each other intensely. Thanas has even acknowledged this, with German conservatives who abhor his policies toward the Soviet Union, and I suspect the conservative Hungarians are just as displeased. For the Soviet Union.... Germany just aided in the crushing of a fraternal Socialist brother. It's one thing to remain practical in dealing with such a great power, but it would be just as wise for them to seek allies elsewhere should Germany's anti-Communism direct it east next time. Stas even made clear before quitting that the Soviet Union was quite angry with the Germans over the conquest of the Low Countries.

That said, I see no conflict of interest in Thanas playing the role of planning Soviet war strategies. We need someone to do it and the mods are at a loss of what to do regarding Manchuria (doesn't help that this mod, at least, believes the war was a critical strategic mistake from the get-go but is unsure of how to realistically extricate the Soviet Union from the conflict). Though if Thanas starts giving the Soviets an unrealistic preparation for Czech's attacks - beyond the kind of thing one would expect as "insurance" - then I will become most displeased.

[RogueIce]

This is not SDNW2. There is no MESS and there is no CATO. That. is. ALL.

This. Definately.

---

Moving on to the non mod stuff...

Since Steve is kinda stealing my thunder, I went ahead and put up an IC post like I've been planning to do once the Panama War got to a certain point. Sorry it's not the greatest but I don't have a ton of time ATM. But the biggest points are there and if anything is a little too undiplomatic or whatever...well those are the rough drafts and my State Department made sure to edit them into appropriate diplomatic notes. So take no offense.

Well for both of you guys we are only at D+12 so your note is still 2 days away from coming in, after which diplomats would have to be dispatched, a ceasefire line agreed upon, and negotiations begun. Honestly Cuba would have been better since we could get there faster. By calling for a conference in Byzantium you are tacking on a minimum of 5 days in transit.

Cuba could work, if Ryan is good with that. If he is, I'd have no problem retconning my post. In fact, I'll just say 'we're searching for a location' and take out the Byzantium bit (sorry Fin). Then I can say I'm putting out feelers to Colombia and Mexico on determining a suitable location. Of course ceasefire negotiations take the priority: we want to try and stop as much disruption to Canal traffic as we can.

Once that's out of the way, we can deal with the actual peace talks. And those can take place wherever. But I'll still be inviting the Canal Board along. They do have a vested interest in the Canal and everybody knows final control of the Canal is going to be the biggest issue on the table; I doubt anyone really thinks Mexico just wanted some Panamanian real estate.

[Czechmate]

With regards to those 'missteps', Thanas mistook my mobilization in preparation for war against Russia for preparation for war against *him*. Which is excessively paranoid to the point of mild insanity. Why in the world would I want to fight the Germans? I have no real claim on any German territory, even in the name of Nordic irredentism, except maybe Schleswig and Pomerania and those aren't worth a war over.

Been a bit of a wedge between us since, which got bigger when he united a huge chunk of Europa into a single bloc to the exclusion of both myself and the Polish player. As a result Slacker and I have sort of banded together for survival (into the jokingly named 'Warsaw Pact', no less, even though neither of us have had time to really post about it) due to the fact that we're both bordered by Germany *and* the USSR and neither of them are particularly friendly.

[Ryan Thunder]

Cuba is fine.

I'd like to also allow the Cisplatine Republic and Brazil to send representatives to the talks as they're immediate neighbours. This is as much about needless and pointless Mexican aggression as it is about who controls the canal. Which is Colombia in concert with the Canal Board, of course, though I suppose the Mexican Empire is free to imagine otherwise.

As it is I believe Mexico will have taken the greater PR hit in this war, though Colombia's taking a prestige hit due to the clear ineffectiveness of their naval forces an OOC mistake.

Let's not kid ourselves here, now...

[Czechmate]

Cuba is fine.

I'd like to also allow the Cisplatine Republic and Brazil to send representatives to the talks as they're immediate neighbours. This is as much about needless and pointless Mexican aggression as it is about who controls the canal. Which is Colombia in concert with the Canal Board, of course, though I suppose the Mexican Empire is free to imagine otherwise.

As it is I believe Mexico will have taken the greater PR hit in this war, though Colombia's taking a prestige hit due to the clear ineffectiveness of their naval forces an OOC mistake.

Let's not kid ourselves here, now...

IC: Your forces are ineffective and weak.
OOC: You made some understandable OOB mistakes and it affected your warmaking capacity ingame.

Both are true. It's an 'and' scenario, not an 'or'.

[Ryan Thunder]

IC: Your forces are ineffective and weak.
OOC: You made some understandable OOB mistakes and it affected your warmaking capacity ingame.

Both are true. It's an 'and' scenario, not an 'or'.

I mention it because its an OOC mistake that implies IC decisions that make no sense.

It's not my intention to drag the thread into a discussion on that, however.

[Czechmate]

Maybe your naval command and government could never agree on what sorts of ships to build. The Navy wanted proper oceangoing battle-line ships, the government wanted monitors and cruisers, the government did something devious and won by firing the dissenting admirals...and now the Colombian public have been shown the folly of their leader's/leaders' ways and will now demand an election so they can vote for a rightfully socialist and properly forward-thinking administration that won't screw them over in the next war for the survival of socialism in northern South America.

Cue re-optimization of leadership and military reform so you can fix your mistakes with IC justification! Problem solved.

[CmdrWilkens]

Cuba is fine.

I'd like to also allow the Cisplatine Republic and Brazil to send representatives to the talks as they're immediate neighbours. This is as much about needless and pointless Mexican aggression as it is about who controls the canal. Which is Colombia in concert with the Canal Board, of course, though I suppose the Mexican Empire is free to imagine otherwise.

1) No, hell no, and no. They are not involved, they are not board members and they are not neutral. They can be observers all they want (as I expect most folks will send at least a mid-level military attache) but they don't get a seat at the table.

2) I never said otherwise, my point was that the issue at hand is about FAR more than the Canal. While it is the single most valuable thing it does not make up a majority of the total weight on items under discussion. Simply put the future status of Panama disregarding the canal is collectively of far more importance than the canal itself.

I would be fine with all the Board Members as observers (where they would be free to offer and solicit advice) but the board would already have a representative at the table in Colombia and likely would also be present in the form of the mediator for these negotiations. Adding extra voices distorts the conversation. If you want the talks to go on for months without end then certainly bring as many voices as possible in to the equations but simplicity is often the best policy. A direct mediation by a third party ( and there are several which would be acceptable to Mexico) between Mexico and Gran Colombia is the best way to resolve this.


Further aside nobody would consider any member of the Canal Board to be a truly neutral mediator but I would be willing to accept (conditional upon an agreed upon ceasefire the terms of which ALSO would need to be negotiated between you and I) Germany, Byzantium or the United States as well as, amongst non-board members, Portugal, Madagascar, or Great Britain to serve as the mediator.