[Prodigal Son] Doesn't know what reaction time is

[Dangermouse]

If the delay between when the Jedi/Sith sense the event and when the event occurs is less than the Jedi's presumably biomechanically limited response/action time, then the precog would not matter.

Recall the incident in TPM: Jedi are able to physically ramp up their response time. So, it took the Jedi three frames (IIRC) to move out of the blaster bolt's way down the hall. Further, IIRC, they phased themselves through the blaster; or was that just a visual illusion?

I do not have TPM but I will take your word for it. So that is 100ms going by 30fps. Do you remember how far the Jedi moved?

I am not sure how much this really answers the question either way since they could have sensed the event at some unknown distant point in the past and knew they needed at least 100ms before the blaster fired to get out of the way.

[SirNitram]

Strawman fallacy, you lying little hypocrit. Oh, wait. You're so far from logical and sensible you don't know what fallacies are, do you?

So basically, you have no real reasons as to why the jedi were gunned down, nor do you have a reason why palpatine didnt see vader was about to toss his ass down a long shaft, gotcha

Do you want to get thrown out of here? Putting words in people's mouths is a good way to do that.

[Prodigal Son]

Hey, you illiterate pigfucker: I was making a point about Jedi reaction times, not making a comparative argument between Superman and Jedi. Is that so hard to fucking understand, you assmonkey?

hey dolt guess what? we are currently discussing superman against jedi, so why the fuck would you bring up them reacting to something much much slower than him, how does that help your case at all douchebag? if youre gonna bring something to the table bring stuff that show they can react to him, dont point out that they can block things traveling slow enough for the human eye to see

[Wyrm]

Moving too fast to see doesn't exempt him from precognition.

When have the jedi ever been able to perceive and react to something moving at nearly the speed of light? sources please

deflection of chiss charric shots in the HoT duology. Mazers move at C.

Also, deflecting blaster shots requires pretty inhuman reaction time if not outright precognition. Simply dodging blaster shots is doable for an ordinary human, but that generally means removing yourself from an area you might be hit by a blaster shot to an area you're pretty sure you won't be hit by the shot. Actually intercepting the shot requires a lot more precision.

This doesn't help Superman, in case you missed the point.

[Surlethe]

You yourself fucking admitted it, motherfucker: their combat precog is reliable. Right here:

Are you fucking retarded? do I have to retype what you just fucking quoted? I will, and I'll do it slowly: it only seems to kick in during pod races and when blasters are being fired at them how does this stand up against a being who can move faster than light you cunt?

Obviously, you cretinous, gum-flapping fanboy imbecile, you have chafed himself over Superman so much he's having trouble reading; or has your six-year-old mind not matured to the point of being able to read contextually? Regardless, my point stands: in combat situations, precognition works perfectly well.

Unfortunately for you, you illiterate moronic dogfucker, precognition means knowing before the action. Next time, try reading my posts, asshole.

[Eframepilot]

Moving too fast to see doesn't exempt him from precognition.

No, it does not. Moving too fast for the Jedi to react, however, does effectively exempt him from precognition.

You're fucking illiterate, aren't you. If you're acting on precignition, you don't 'react'. You can't out-react someone who starts before you think of something.

You're missing the point. Here's an example: Suppose you're a Jedi, and you're fighting the Flash. The Flash can easily move at relativistic velocities. So he goes to attack you. Because you have precognition, you react to this before he starts to move.

But it's too late! You can't even move your lightsaber a millimeter before he punches you a thousand times in a second and you die. Even starting before the Flash begins moving, you fail to react to him. You are a living statue to him.

It's exactly this sort of argument that gives SD.Net a bad rep on CBR.

And it's arguments like yours which remind us why no one gives a shit about this 'rep': CBR is full of illiterate retards.[/quote]
And SD.Net is full of biased Star Wars fanwhores who go to ridiculous extremes to argue for their favorite characters, and the cycle continues.

[SirNitram]

If the delay between when the Jedi/Sith sense the event and when the event occurs is less than the Jedi's presumably biomechanically limited response/action time, then the precog would not matter.

Recall the incident in TPM: Jedi are able to physically ramp up their response time. So, it took the Jedi three frames (IIRC) to move out of the blaster bolt's way down the hall. Further, IIRC, they phased themselves through the blaster; or was that just a visual illusion?

I do not have TPM but I will take your word for it. So that is 100ms going by 30fps. Do you remember how far the Jedi moved?

I am not sure how much this really answers the question either way since they could have sensed the event at some unknown distant point in the past and knew they needed at least 100ms before the blaster fired to get out of the way.

That's the trick, really: We know against opponents who are not specially trained(Clonetroopers, who were flash-imprinted to do this.), or Force-Sensitive themselves(Other Jedi, Sith), they're near flawless. They go up against how many droids before sheer numbers beat them down? And most of those dead are the ambassadors and teachers, not the warriors.

[Prodigal Son]

Do you want to get thrown out of here? Putting words in people's mouths is a good way to do that.

It seems people get tossed out just for stating their opinions, which wouldnt surprise me


alright, then I shouldnt of put words in your mouth now: When I brought up my bullet example about precog I was called a fucking moron, so ok: How come their precog did not let them know of the clone troopers betrayal? how come nobody yelled out "duck!" or "the clones are gonna turn against us!" before it happened? how come they couldnt even muster up enough reaction time to block the majority of their blasterbolts?

Or, how could palpatine not know that vader was going to come up behind him and toss him down a shaft? how come he didnt even REMOTELY glance at vader, or bother to stop his lightning and say..direct it at vader so he didnt kill him? explain these

[Surlethe]

Hey, you illiterate pigfucker: I was making a point about Jedi reaction times, not making a comparative argument between Superman and Jedi. Is that so hard to fucking understand, you assmonkey?

hey dolt guess what? we are currently discussing superman against jedi, so why the fuck would you bring up them reacting to something much much slower than him, how does that help your case at all douchebag? if youre gonna bring something to the table bring stuff that show they can react to him, dont point out that they can block things traveling slow enough for the human eye to see

Currently, we are on a tangent. Dangermouse brought up a point related to the tangent, which is not directly relevant to the tangent. Is it so fucking hard to comprehend the fact there may be more than one tangent going on at once? Moron.

[SirNitram]

No, it does not. Moving too fast for the Jedi to react, however, does effectively exempt him from precognition.

You're fucking illiterate, aren't you. If you're acting on precignition, you don't 'react'. You can't out-react someone who starts before you think of something.

You're missing the point. Here's an example: Suppose you're a Jedi, and you're fighting the Flash. The Flash can easily move at relativistic velocities. So he goes to attack you. Because you have precognition, you react to this before he starts to move.

But it's too late! You can't even move your lightsaber a millimeter before he punches you a thousand times in a second and you die. Even starting before the Flash begins moving, you fail to react to him. You are a living statue to him.

And what prevents me from doing this far enough before he starts that I still block him, precisely? Besides your fanwhorish refusal to get the simplest concepts?

It's exactly this sort of argument that gives SD.Net a bad rep on CBR.

And it's arguments like yours which remind us why no one gives a shit about this 'rep': CBR is full of illiterate retards.

And SD.Net is full of biased Star Wars fanwhores who go to ridiculous extremes to argue for their favorite characters, and the cycle continues. [/quote]

Okay. There's the door. Get the fuck out, if you won't debate rationally.

[Prodigal Son]

my point stands: in combat situations, precognition works perfectly well.

.

So, when the jedi got gunned down, that wasnt a combat situation? so when palpatine was blatantly trying to kill luke, that wasnt a combat situation? oh wait, that would contradict your point, so im sure you'll retaliate with a half ass excuse as to why they couldnt, but dont worry im expecting it, so go ahead with it

[SirNitram]

Do you want to get thrown out of here? Putting words in people's mouths is a good way to do that.

It seems people get tossed out just for stating their opinions, which wouldnt surprise me

Lying bitch. The threat only came when your response to me pointing out your strawman was to shove words in my mouth. Do not lie about your opponents positions. Do not lie period. That is not an 'opinion'. I'm sick of you and your fellow whiny bitches turning you coming here, insulting the population, putting up bullshit arguments, then, when the pathetic attempts are knocked down, turning into whiny little brats who think they can insult everyone, never provide an argument, and shove words in the other guys mouths.

You are an insult to every sensible person ever to enjoy a comic book, child. I feel shame that I have to share that much with the slithering likes of you. You vile, putrific slimeball.

alright, then I shouldnt of put words in your mouth now: When I brought up my bullet example about precog I was called a fucking moron, so ok: How come their precog did not let them know of the clone troopers betrayal? how come nobody yelled out "duck!" or "the clones are gonna turn against us!" before it happened? how come they couldnt even muster up enough reaction time to block the majority of their blasterbolts?

Sur-fucking-prise. When you're not using combat precog, you're not going to get it's benefits against someone behind you.

Or, how could palpatine not know that vader was going to come up behind him and toss him down a shaft? how come he didnt even REMOTELY glance at vader, or bother to stop his lightning and say..direct it at vader so he didnt kill him? explain these

Not using combat precog at the time. Next.

[Dangermouse]

We knew he could see the event fairly clearly on Bespin, and that was many lightyears away. I don't see a reason why only the temporal dimension would be limiting, still, it establishes he can see with a high degree of accuracy, across probably hundreds or thousands of lightyears, hours in advance.

That's well and away enough to fight anyone.

Sure. That length of time scale would make the reaction time/speed/etc of an opponent largely meaningless for most things since most situations we are talking about would be on the ms / sec scale and not the hour scale.

The impression I got from the movie was the Yoda was getting a general/abstract sense about the future and not specifically predicting, for example, that Han would be lowered X number of feet onto this machine and tortured for X hours. I think for fighting you would need a highly accurate sense of what was occuring (for example, to move my arm 2 inches to the right to avoid that bullet that is coming right at it). Maybe the book goes into more detail about the accuracy of the Bespin Vision. <Shrugs>

[Prodigal Son]

And what prevents me from doing this far enough before he starts that I still block him, precisely? Besides your fanwhorish refusal to get the simplest concepts?

.

And why the fuck cant you understand simple concepts? Why the fuck cant you accept that precog means nothing if your reaction ? notice the jedi dont jump out of the way of blaster bolts usually? they fucking BLOCK them, why? because they ARENT fast enough to jump the fuck out of the way, why the fuck cant you, on a board who is known above all else for applying reason and logic, understand that you NEED to be able to perceive something in order to react to it, their precog shows them what is about to happen, not what IS happening, it does NOT raise their reaction times, and until you prove it does, simply playing it off by calling people fanwhorish and calling your one sided illogical arguments "simple" just wont fucking cut it, so either put up or shut the fuck up

[Darth Quorthon]

Where's Galvatron when you need him? Or is he in a different forum? I'm not too familiar with the "axe-men" around here, and I hope I never have a face-to-face encounter with one.

[Surlethe]

my point stands: in combat situations, precognition works perfectly well.

.

So, when the jedi got gunned down, that wasnt a combat situation? so when palpatine was blatantly trying to kill luke, that wasnt a combat situation? oh wait, that would contradict your point, so im sure you'll retaliate with a half ass excuse as to why they couldnt, but dont worry im expecting it, so go ahead with it

Jedi got gunned down by Order 66 because of two reasons: Palpatine was inhibiting the Force; and the clones were absolutely loyal to the Jedi up until Order 66 was implemented. Of course, I'm sure you'll never understand this, you inbred fanwhore, because things like logic will never penetrate your mind. Furthermore, Luke v. Palpatine was not a combat situation; only an illiterate donkeyfucker wouldn't realize murder is not combat. There is a distinction; bets are off as to whether or not your five-neuron brain will grasp it, obsessed as those neurons are with your self-gratification over Superman.

[Dangermouse]

That's the trick, really: We know against opponents who are not specially trained(Clonetroopers, who were flash-imprinted to do this.), or Force-Sensitive themselves(Other Jedi, Sith), they're near flawless. They go up against how many droids before sheer numbers beat them down? And most of those dead are the ambassadors and teachers, not the warriors.

Right. I am mainly curious if there was a number out there (how far into the future can a Jedi see as far as combat situations) to get a better feel of situations (if any) in which Jedi precog might not be fast enough (or distant enough in the past).

[Noble Ire]

[SirNitram]

And what prevents me from doing this far enough before he starts that I still block him, precisely? Besides your fanwhorish refusal to get the simplest concepts?

.

And why the fuck cant you understand simple concepts? Why the fuck cant you accept that precog means nothing if your reaction ? notice the jedi dont jump out of the way of blaster bolts usually? they fucking BLOCK them, why? because they ARENT fast enough to jump the fuck out of the way, why the fuck cant you, on a board who is known above all else for applying reason and logic, understand that you NEED to be able to perceive something in order to react to it, their precog shows them what is about to happen, not what IS happening, it does NOT raise their reaction times, and until you prove it does, simply playing it off by calling people fanwhorish and calling your one sided illogical arguments "simple" just wont fucking cut it, so either put up or shut the fuck up

That's why when confronted with full-auto blasters in the TradeFed Battleship, they simply flicker away at highway speeds when it becomes clear they won't defeat them by deflections? Oh, right. You're a liar. They can get out of the way; deflections just increase the chances of killing their opponent.

Yet another lie, from a person whose whole history here is seeded with lies.

[Eframepilot]

You're missing the point. Here's an example: Suppose you're a Jedi, and you're fighting the Flash. The Flash can easily move at relativistic velocities. So he goes to attack you. Because you have precognition, you react to this before he starts to move.

But it's too late! You can't even move your lightsaber a millimeter before he punches you a thousand times in a second and you die. Even starting before the Flash begins moving, you fail to react to him. You are a living statue to him.

And what prevents me from doing this far enough before he starts that I still block him, precisely? Besides your fanwhorish refusal to get the simplest concepts?
[/quote]
Because you're too slow! The Flash is moving at (or so close that it doesn't matter) the speed of light. It doesn't matter how early you start to react. You are a statue to the Flash. You cannot physically move fast enough to intercept his moves. It doesn't matter if you can predict his moves if your body can't react quickly enough to actually counter them.

[Prodigal Son]

Lying bitch. The threat only came when your response to me pointing out your strawman was to shove words in my mouth. Do not lie about your opponents positions. Do not lie period.

who the fuck are you kid? who the fuck are you to tell me im lying? Ive heard about this board, ive heard people get banned when they dont agree with the mods, DEAL WITH IT BITCH, if it isnt true then say it isnt true, but dont throw a fuckin little pansy ass hissy fit

That is not an 'opinion'. I'm sick of you and your fellow whiny bitches turning you coming here, insulting the population, putting up bullshit arguments, then, when the pathetic attempts are knocked down, turning into whiny little brats who think they can insult everyone, never provide an argument, and shove words in the other guys mouths.

and im sick of you and your pack of star wars fanboys acting like youre always right and everyone else is wrong, everyone else is a moron but you are intelligent? shut the fuck up you bias piece of shit

as to the rest of your post? I didnt even bother reading it, im sure its chalked full of more of your dipshit theories and "simple conclusions"

[Surlethe]

If the delay between when the Jedi/Sith sense the event and when the event occurs is less than the Jedi's presumably biomechanically limited response/action time, then the precog would not matter.

Recall the incident in TPM: Jedi are able to physically ramp up their response time. So, it took the Jedi three frames (IIRC) to move out of the blaster bolt's way down the hall. Further, IIRC, they phased themselves through the blaster; or was that just a visual illusion?

I do not have TPM but I will take your word for it. So that is 100ms going by 30fps. Do you remember how far the Jedi moved?

I am not sure how much this really answers the question either way since they could have sensed the event at some unknown distant point in the past and knew they needed at least 100ms before the blaster fired to get out of the way.

There was a thread in PSW a couple of months ago where the screenshots were posted. I don't have them on hand: I'm going from memory of that thread. IIRC, someone -- NecronLord, maybe? -- was squaring off with Darth Wong over the shots, and they backed down.

[SirNitram]

That's the trick, really: We know against opponents who are not specially trained(Clonetroopers, who were flash-imprinted to do this.), or Force-Sensitive themselves(Other Jedi, Sith), they're near flawless. They go up against how many droids before sheer numbers beat them down? And most of those dead are the ambassadors and teachers, not the warriors.

Right. I am mainly curious if there was a number out there (how far into the future can a Jedi see as far as combat situations) to get a better feel of situations (if any) in which Jedi precog might not be fast enough (or distant enough in the past).

That's a question for PSW, really. I don't think we get exact numbers, but it is confirmed that another Force User can inhibit both precog and manuverability in the AOTC novelization, IIRC.

Of course, it's likely not to be a single number for all. A diplomat may have superior long-term, broad precog(The meeting will have this outcome if I do nothing), but inferior combat precog. And Yoda may be exceptionally powerful.

We do know, however, they can react fast enough to fight in starfighters are large chunks of cee from the NJO books(God, those were bad books).

[Prodigal Son]

Jedi got gunned down by Order 66 because of two reasons: Palpatine was inhibiting the Force;

Really? when the fuck did palpatine ever show he could inhibit the force over millions upon millions of miles of space? really, I dare you to back that shit up kid

[Dangermouse]

And what prevents me from doing this far enough before he starts that I still block him, precisely? Besides your fanwhorish refusal to get the simplest concepts?

Because you're too slow! The Flash is moving at (or so close that it doesn't matter) the speed of light. It doesn't matter how early you start to react. You are a statue to the Flash. You cannot physically move fast enough to intercept his moves. It doesn't matter if you can predict his moves if your body can't react quickly enough to actually counter them.[/quote]

Thats the trick and the hangup though. The precog has to be far enough out so that the Jedi's reaction time + the precog time is less than time it takes the Flash to do action X. If I can predict that you are going to fire a lightspeed bolt at me, and I know this lets say five minutes in advance, well I have five minutes to move my body outside the beam of the bolt. Thats why I am kinda interested in how far in advance Jedi can predict combat actions. If you don't know that, its hard to really tell what is going on.