[Barton]The Federation is NOT Communist.

[brianeyci]

Or their technology allows them to make it look less severe. The Soviet Union, after all, started in a nation that was already lagging well behind the rest of Europe in terms of technology and living standards. But if you look at the Federation, the terms "Federation" and "Starfleet" are virtually interchangeable. All of the best schools are in Starfleet, not civilian life. All of the top doctors and scientists work for Starfleet. Major events such as planet-scale plagues can be kept secret in the Federation. Starfleet is so powerful that if martial law is declared, a Starfleet Admiral will take direct control of the Federation. The immense influence of Starfleet over the Federation's ostensibly civilian government is actually very reminiscent of Stalinism, Leninism, et al.

Valid points. However, I do not think that having advanced technology would solve the biggest problem with the Soviet Union's form of communism. If you are a government worker, and your take-home pay is miniscule, and you get little incentive for working hard, would you work hard for the government if you did not reap the rewards of your work? The Federation is one of the major powers in the Alpha Quadrant, and after a couple hundred years, still manages to compete with the Klingons, Romulans, and so on, with this stagnant form of government.

The biggest question to me is, how does the Federation reward its citizens for hard work? What is the incentive to work hard at school or at work if you have holodecks where you could live out your every fantasy? What is the incentive if there is no such thing as money, and you could not accumulate wealth and raise the standard of living for your family?

The Federation does seem to keep up on things on the technological side... how do scientists get the motivation to do research? I know you think that "knowledge-based economy" is simply delivering services -- however, what if the Federation was a truly academic society that placed value on knowledge? If you do not have a form of exchange (money), what other commodity is there except the mind?

Brian

[brianeyci]

Because the USSR had the same leader throughout its history

No, I am not implying that. I am saying that there is a five year (I think maybe more) gap between the change of the Presidents. Like I said this alone does not provide evidence of an electorial system.

However, I didn't watch the episode where Sisko mentioned the "elected president" (Paradise Lost from what has been posted). Use that in substitute for the silly changing of the Presidents example.

Or maybe he's just pissed off. Or maybe he's an idiot. Did you never use that tone of voice with a parent when you were younger? If you did, were you in a position of authority over them?

Agreed.

He could certainly have supporters in the military that allowed him to mantain some sembalance of control. You know, precisely how the USSR functioned.

Sure. However, think of what you are trying to say. The President said "this president is not above the law". The Starfleet Admiralty agreed and did not pursue an invasion of Klingon space.

If you want to say that the Admiralty was using the President as a sort of political puppet, why wouldn't the Admiralty just have invaded Klingon territory without Presidental approval? Or perhaps concieved a way to dispose him, and invaded Klingon space anyway?

If you want to say that the President was some sort of Fed-Stalinistic dictator, then why did the President say, "this President is not above the law"? Why would he care about the "law" if he truly had total power?

You can apply Occam's Razor here. Here is what is happening.

Federation President orders Admiralty to not invade Klingon space.

I claim,

Federation President has authority over the Admiralty as the commander-in-chief.

You claim,

Federation President has authority over the Admiralty as the commander-in-chief. However, he requires "supporters" in the military as the military could at any moment wrest control from the President in a coup.

From the limited information we have, I would go with the simpler hypothesis.

Again, perfectly in line with the Soviet Union.

I don't understand your reasoning. The *elected* President controls the military. The military obey his orders. How is this similar to the Soviet Union, who had mock elections? We see no evidence of the elections being merely mock, or ceremonial, or rigged, or anything of that sort.

We have seen no evidence of some sort of "Federation Secret Police"... the only close example of that I can think of is Section 13, which was a renegade group not affiliated with the Federation.

Brian

[Stark]

No, I am not implying that. I am saying that there is a five year (I think maybe more) gap between the change of the Presidents. Like I said this alone does not provide evidence of an electorial system.

However, I didn't watch the episode where Sisko mentioned the "elected president" (Paradise Lost from what has been posted). Use that in substitute for the silly changing of the Presidents example.

So do you know how the election worked? Who is elegible to vote? Everyone seems to be a Federation 'citizen', but the Marqui know what that entails. Is the President elected directly, or by the Council? You can't leap from 'there was an election' to 'Federation citizens have all the rights of citizens of a modern democracy'. Its also not very good form to have an extended debate based on your perceptions of communism and how 'bad' it is (or isn't).

I don't understand your reasoning. The *elected* President controls the military. The military obey his orders. How is this similar to the Soviet Union, who had mock elections? We see no evidence of the elections being merely mock, or ceremonial, or rigged, or anything of that sort

We see no elections AT ALL. Noone talks about voting, or parties, or politcal platforms, scandals, hot issues, etc. Politicians are very seldom refered to AT ALL. How is this support for Federation-wide free elections?

We have seen no evidence of some sort of "Federation Secret Police"... the only close example of that I can think of is Section 13, which was a renegade group not affiliated with the Federation.

Really. Thats cute. 'There's no secret police... oh, except for the secret police. But they're rogue. Not rouge.'

[Stofsk]

No, I am not implying that. I am saying that there is a five year (I think maybe more) gap between the change of the Presidents. Like I said this alone does not provide evidence of an electorial system.

So do you know how the election worked? Who is elegible to vote? Everyone seems to be a Federation 'citizen', but the Marqui know what that entails. Is the President elected directly, or by the Council? You can't leap from 'there was an election' to 'Federation citizens have all the rights of citizens of a modern democracy.

I don't understand your reasoning. The *elected* President controls the military. The military obey his orders. How is this similar to the Soviet Union, who had mock elections? We see no evidence of the elections being merely mock, or ceremonial, or rigged, or anything of that sort

We see no elections AT ALL. Noone talks about voting, or parties, or politcal platforms, scandals, hot issues, etc. Politicians are very seldom refered to AT ALL. How is this support for Federation-wide free elections?

Thank you, Stark - this is what I wrote before, several pages ago.

Jaresh Enyo may indeed have been elected to his position as POTUF (:)), but who was allowed to vote? When and where did the election take place? Why is it, in 14 years of TNG, DS9, and even VOY, do we get only ONE reference to an elected official, and the details of which are vague and diminutive? What do we call the Federation, if in all that time we have not seen ONE election where the common man casts his vote into the 24th C equivalent of a ballot box? What do we call such a nation? A Democracy? I don't think so.

We have seen no evidence of some sort of "Federation Secret Police"... the only close example of that I can think of is Section 13, which was a renegade group not affiliated with the Federation.

Section 31, and they bear all the hallmarks of a internal security organisation. In other words, they're very good at spying on their own citizens, rather than other governments. Not surprisingly, they're officially branded as 'renegades' by the brass, who promise to do something about them... which they never do. So what can be inferred from that?

[brianeyci]

Your points are accepted Stark, I don't see that we can draw any conclusions about the Federation's electorial process or anything else from simply saying that the Federation president was elected. However, how is it possible to draw the opposite conclusion, that the elections are rigged or ceremonial?

I have never said that the Federation has the full rights of a modern democracy. However, we can tell that there is some sort of "Seventh Guarantee", and from the TNG episode (can't remember the name now), and the context Picard is refering to this guarantee, it would seem pretty similar to the US seventh admendment. Again we don't really know exactly what this "guarantee" says, or whether or not it is really enforced and upheld.

Perhaps Section 13 was a way the Federation elite used to quiet dissenters. However, from what we see Section 13 do, they are concerned with threats to the safety of the Federation as a whole, not individuals badmouthing the Federation.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Section 31, and they bear all the hallmarks of a internal security organisation. In other words, they're very good at spying on their own citizens, rather than other governments. Not surprisingly, they're officially branded as 'renegades' by the brass, who promise to do something about them... which they never do. So what can be inferred from that?

Hrm. Does Section 31 eventually get destroyed by Bashir? Section 31 is hardly a representation of a systemic crackdown on freedom of expression and speech, which is what I meant by "Secret Police".

<edit>I have never called the Federation a democracy -- the best we can imply from this is that the Federation has democratic elements.</edit>

Brian

[Stofsk]

Your points are accepted Stark, I don't see that we can draw any conclusions about the Federation's electorial process or anything else from simply saying that the Federation president was elected. However, how is it possible to draw the opposite conclusion, that the elections are rigged or ceremonial?

Because we have no evidence to the contrary. If Jaresh Enyo was elected through popular vote, then why is it in 14 years we don't see such a popular election? Why don't we see Chief O'Brien cast his vote for Jaresh Enyo, who's platform policy pushes towards a family benefits scheme which the Chief would favour, considering he's got little Molly and Keiko to take care of? Why don't we see Worf and the Chief get into an argument about the politics, because Worf wants to vote for The Other Guy, who's promising to increase defence spending and commission a new Fleet for sectors that are under threat? We see none of this.

On the other hand it makes sense to say that Jaresh Enyo was 'elected' into the position by the Council, out of perhaps multiple choices. And who says the elections are rigged or ceremonial? Jaresh Enyo is still elected into office, he simply appears not to have been popularly elected by the people, but rather some hitherto unknown group. If you fit it within the context that the Federation is Communist, it makes sense that he was 'elected' by the Council.

[Stofsk]

Hrm. Does Section 31 eventually get destroyed by Bashir?

No, he and O'Brien essentially kill Sloan. Or Sloan kills himself, I can't remember which, but for some reason most of the episode took part in Sloan's mind. And neither Bashir and O'Brien are telepathic.

Section 31 is hardly a representation of a systemic crackdown on freedom of expression and speech, which is what I meant by "Secret Police".

Of course. Section 31 is a covert organisation that has received unofficial sanction from the Federation; Sisko says as much.

In terms of freedom of speech, expression etc, it's all good except you can't spread the word. Starfleet controls the subspace relay network. It's a bit hard transmitting radio messages that criticise or even outright attack the government of the day, when all Starfleet has to do is flick a switch and the signal dies. Furthermore, Jake writes to IIRC the 'Federation News Service' when he stayed behind on DS9 when the Dominion invaded. This in itself isn't conclusive though it is implicatory. Why only one News Service? Why is this one owned by the Federation? Can you truly have freedom of speech and expression if there is only one avenue to express yourself in?

<edit>I have never called the Federation a democracy -- the best we can imply from this is that the Federation has democratic elements.</edit>

Very good.

[Gandalf]

Hrm. Does Section 31 eventually get destroyed by Bashir?

No, he and O'Brien essentially kill Sloan. Or Sloan kills himself, I can't remember which, but for some reason most of the episode took part in Sloan's mind. And neither Bashir and O'Brien are telepathic.

Sloan kills himself.

When he is captured by Bashir/O'Brien, he sets off some sort of suicide gland in himself that causes his mind to collapse. Bashir uses pilfered Romulan Memory Probes to go into his mind.

Just some clarification.

[brianeyci]

Because we have no evidence to the contrary. If Jaresh Enyo was elected through popular vote, then why is it in 14 years we don't see such a popular election? Why don't we see Chief O'Brien cast his vote for Jaresh Enyo, who's platform policy pushes towards a family benefits scheme which the Chief would favour, considering he's got little Molly and Keiko to take care of? Why don't we see Worf and the Chief get into an argument about the politics, because Worf wants to vote for The Other Guy, who's promising to increase defence spending and commission a new Fleet for sectors that are under threat? We see none of this.

On the other hand it makes sense to say that Jaresh Enyo was 'elected' into the position by the Council, out of perhaps multiple choices. And who says the elections are rigged or ceremonial? Jaresh Enyo is still elected into office, he simply appears not to have been popularly elected by the people, but rather some hitherto unknown group. If you fit it within the context that the Federation is Communist, it makes sense that he was 'elected' by the Council.

Hrm you raise some very interesting points. To be honest, I haven't even seen the episode with Jaresh Enyo, just quoting others =D. However, there is a fine line between socialism and communism that I don't think has been concretely crossed yet by canon facts. If socialism is supposed to be "each according to his deeds" and communism is "each according to his needs" (link http://www.geocities.com/commiett/difference.html), then it seems very hard to differentiate the difference between need and deed.

In the end, I will be satisfied calling the Federation Marxist, or perhaps socialist. However throwing it in the same bucket as the North Korea's and Soviet Unions shouldn't be the way to do it. Enough spam from me.

Brian

[brianeyci]

In terms of freedom of speech, expression etc, it's all good except you can't spread the word. Starfleet controls the subspace relay network. It's a bit hard transmitting radio messages that criticise or even outright attack the government of the day, when all Starfleet has to do is flick a switch and the signal dies. Furthermore, Jake writes to IIRC the 'Federation News Service' when he stayed behind on DS9 when the Dominion invaded. This in itself isn't conclusive though it is implicatory. Why only one News Service? Why is this one owned by the Federation? Can you truly have freedom of speech and expression if there is only one avenue to express yourself in?

Very good points. However, CBC in Canada is publicly funded, and I regard it as one of the best news sources I have.

There's a lot of hypothetical questions, difficult to answer without more episodes with more examples of Federation media/politicians/etc. We cannot declare the Federation totalitarian, and despite my desire to do so, we cannot declare that it actually upholds the virtues (eg. Seventh Guarantee) or so forth that it sets out in paper. I don't know where else to go with this argument, maybe I need a bit of time to think.

Brian

[Aeolus]

If this is a capitalist society, why do we see no advertising, nor any brand names or logos anywhere? Why would capitalist society get rid of such things? Why does Starfleet have nothing at all with a company symbol on it?

As for the idea of sending 2000 men to Vulcan to secure it, there are plenty of good arguments I can give against that, but it's a side issue, so I'll make it short. If 2000 men is all you need to knock over a planet, why did the US military waste so many men invading Afghanistan and Iraq? If so few men are needed, we could conquer the world with what forces we have now, and probably have troops to spare; just send 2000 men per country and we're golden. If you can explain why that is a silly idea, you can understand how 2000 people can't conquer a much bigger target.

Well there was an episode of Voyager where the Doctor contacts a publishing firm...

[Mange]

No, I don't think either that the Federation is a Communist society, it's a socialist society run by the military.
Mike has a somewhat sketchy understanding of the term communism. Communism presupposes that one class is suppressing an other ie the bourgeois is suppressing the working class. Communism is, by definition, revolutionary and after the working classes has overthrown the bourgeois class the so called Dictatorship of the Proletariat consisting of the working class, that would rule instead of the capitalists. Communism is the end goal of the socialistic process, the total classless society which isn't built on hierarchies. Thus, by definition, the Federation isn't Communist. Some Communists claims that the Soviet Union wasn't communist since the revolution never was completed (they never got past the Dictatorship of the Proletariat).
in short, Communism is a dialectic ideology and we've not seen any evidence of this in Star Trek

On the other hand, socialism is an economic system which includes "democratic" control of the economy, production and market by the state. This is highly consistent with what we've seen in TNG onwards.

[Stofsk]

So in other words, your argument is: "the Federation isn't Communist because TRUE Communism is..." which coincides with real life, in that you also don't consider the former Soviet Union to be Communist either. That about right?

[AMX]

Just for the heck of it...

We hear in TNG that "poverty has been elminated" by Troi. "Poverty" could mean many things, but it is safe to assume that Troi is saying that nobody goes hungry at the very least.

Poverty is defined as the lower-tier of material status, regardless of how comfortable it is. Only total equality of material status would eliminate poverty, so this actually proves my point, not yours. Strike Three. You're out.

You are aware that this is only one definition of "poverty", and there are others out there, which can actually explain the Troi quote?
for example (both from MSN Encarta),

the state of not having enough money to take care of basic needs such as food, clothing, and housing

and

the state of being without enough money or resources to live at a standard considered normal or basic by society

Using the first one would mean "taking care of everyone's basic needs eliminates poverty"; that's definitely possible with a strong enough industrial base.
It's a bit more complicated with the second one, since here, the actual meaning of "poverty" depends upon the society's view of a "normal or basic standard" - essentially, you could "abolish poverty" by convincing everyone that death by starvation is normal, as long as the person in question owns at least half a set of underwear...

[TheDarkling]

In the episode, Jaresh Inyo does indeed stand by and allows the military to seize control. He doesn't even issue an executive order empowering Layton or his officers to take authourised action

If you mean when they declare martial law he has to authorise it, Sisko, Leyton and Odo go and beg him to do it and he takes some convincing.

He then typed his code into a PAD and handed it over to them.

or to formally suspend the constitution during a state of emergency.

Why would the Federation constitution need suspending?

All they did was deploy Starfleet troops across the planet and possibly declare martial law, given the fact that Earth is supposedly crime free (apart from the odd pick pocketing for the tourists) I doubt they were making many arrests.
I also doubt that Starfleet that Starfleet troops don’t have the power to make arrests anyway, they certainly have that power in space.

The fact that Starfleet squads beam down en-masse into Earth cities to enforce martial law pretty much answers the question about what the public knows, since they see it happening before their own eyes.

The public knows the President authorised the deployment of troops in the face of what seemed to be an imminent Dominion invasion, once things recovered the troops were removed from the streets.

That is all the public knows from seeing the troops on the street

Which explains the lack of journalistic curiosity during the coup attempt... how, exactly?

It explains why we don't see any, if indeed anybody ever found out about it.

[TheDarkling]

If Jaresh Enyo was elected through popular vote, then why is it in 14 years we don't see such a popular election? Why don't we see Chief O'Brien cast his vote for Jaresh Enyo,

Why in 6 years of supposedly pre revolution trek (Ent and TOS) do we not hear about elections?

The bent of the show is why, elections could be every seven years or so and during the TNG-VOY timeframe there are only a couple which we missed in one of the gaps the show has.

We do see elections on Bajor were the bent of the show is towards Bajors politics and there is on indication that Bajor would have to give up their elections once they join the Federation.
With that said it is possible that the Federation President is elected by the peoples representatives, the EU president will be elected in a similar manner.
Does that mean I am currently living in a Stalinist dictatorship?

[TheDarkling]

Jake writes to IIRC the 'Federation News Service' when he stayed behind on DS9 when the Dominion invaded. This in itself isn't conclusive though it is implicatory.

Many western nations have state funded media, so it only implicates the Federation in the same manner that a person working for the BBC indicates Britain is communist.

Britain also had state owned means of communication until a decade or so ago, again this doesn't prove Britain to be (or have been) a communist country.

Since Starfleet must have its own grid for military purposes, if they open it to everybody then there is no clear way to charge people for a service which is already free.
Why should a company got to the expense of building a vast grid of communication relays and pay to maintain them when they can’t really charge people to use it?
Government owned communications makes perfect sense.

Why only one News Service? Why is this one owned by the Federation? Can you truly have freedom of speech and expression if there is only one avenue to express yourself in?

We don't know there aren't rival news services only that Jake works for a particular one, since private publishing houses exist there is nothing stopping them from getting people to right about the news and publishing it.
Jake is also shocked at the idea that Weyoun is censoring his work (blathering about freedom of the press) so it is obviously the Federation has the concept and that allows it to a certain degree.

[Mange]

So in other words, your argument is: "the Federation isn't Communist because TRUE Communism is..." which coincides with real life, in that you also don't consider the former Soviet Union to be Communist either. That about right?

You misinterpreted me, I said some people, and didn't include myself. As I'm an anti-socialist/communist, it's natural I didn't include myself. As for the Soviet Union not being communist, remember that's the communists' claim. It's very convenient for some of those (including the leader of the Swedish left wing party who calls himself communist) to point at the Soviet Union and say "Oh, those countries [the Soviet Union and the other fmr Eastern European countries] weren't communist countries". Of course they were. The Soviet Union and the Eastern Europeans countries was founded on Marxism-Leninism, in which the communist classless society envisioned by Marx and Engels was cast aside and replaced totally with the Dictatorship of the Proletariat in the forms of soviets (local workers' councils) in different levels of society (from single factories up to national level). We also have stalinism (1920's onwards) that instead focused on a highly centralized government (Stalinism quickly fell out of favor after the death of Stalin and was abandoned in the mid 1950's). Too long answer to your question perhaps, but I hope I made myself clear.

There are some things that never can be excluded if you're talking about a Communist society: that it has come through by revolution and the constant dialectic analysis of society. We don't see Captain Picard and Will Riker for example discuss how a class of citizen on a planet is subjagated by another in dialectic terms. And we've not seen any planet invaded by the Federation in order to drive through social or economical reforms.

[Darth Wong]

If Jaresh Enyo was elected through popular vote, then why is it in 14 years we don't see such a popular election? Why don't we see Chief O'Brien cast his vote for Jaresh Enyo,

Why in 6 years of supposedly pre revolution trek (Ent and TOS) do we not hear about elections?

You mean THREE years of pre-revolution Trek, since ENT does not exist in any kind of self-consistent reality with the other series. And none of those three years showed people living off-ship, with their wives and kids, etc. in an off-mission setting. All of DS9's seven years did, with a considerable amount of time spent in a fucking bar.

The bent of the show is why, elections could be every seven years or so and during the TNG-VOY timeframe there are only a couple which we missed in one of the gaps the show has.

Oh right, because no one ever talks politics except the night before an election

We do see elections on Bajor were the bent of the show is towards Bajors politics and there is on indication that Bajor would have to give up their elections once they join the Federation.

Nor is there any indication that democratic elections are a requirement of Federation membership.

Back to the issue of the total absence of journalistic curiosity and protests during the global blackout and subsequent coup on Earth, your answers amount to nothing more than hand-waving. The fact that Jake was surprised when his transmissions were censored without his knowledge doesn't prove much; it was done without his knowledge; how could he possibly NOT be surprised, no matter what impositions he's used to? It doesn't prove that journalists in the Federation do not meekly step aside the moment they are told not to investigate something.

[brianeyci]

If Jaresh Enyo was elected through popular vote, then why is it in 14 years we don't see such a popular election? Why don't we see Chief O'Brien cast his vote for Jaresh Enyo,

Why in 6 years of supposedly pre revolution trek (Ent and TOS) do we not hear about elections?

You mean THREE years of pre-revolution Trek, since ENT does not exist in any kind of self-consistent reality with the other series. And none of those three years showed people living off-ship, with their wives and kids, etc. in an off-mission setting. All of DS9's seven years did, with a considerable amount of time spent in a fucking bar.

The bent of the show is why, elections could be every seven years or so and during the TNG-VOY timeframe there are only a couple which we missed in one of the gaps the show has.

Oh right, because no one ever talks politics except the night before an election

We do see elections on Bajor were the bent of the show is towards Bajors politics and there is on indication that Bajor would have to give up their elections once they join the Federation.

Nor is there any indication that democratic elections are a requirement of Federation membership.

Back to the issue of the total absence of journalistic curiosity and protests during the global blackout and subsequent coup on Earth, your answers amount to nothing more than hand-waving. The fact that Jake was surprised when his transmissions were censored without his knowledge doesn't prove much; it was done without his knowledge; how could he possibly NOT be surprised, no matter what impositions he's used to? It doesn't prove that journalists in the Federation do not meekly step aside the moment they are told not to investigate something.

Not trying to bud in, but I have a couple observations. Whether or not we like Enterprise (series, and I sure don't), it still is Star Trek, not some alternate universe. If you mean that Enterprise is pre-Federation, then point accepted -- you cannot compare pre-Federation Earth to Federation Earth. However if later on, there is an episode regarding how the Federation is formed and the principles of the Federation and political setup and so forth, it would be canon.

I am still working with the idea as the Federation as a sort of "NATO" or "UN" rather than an all encompasing government. It would make more sense, and solve certain problems. The Federation seems to allow members autonomy (I don't remember the episode where Picard says this, correct me if I am wrong). So perhaps the Federation is more a military protectorate rather than an overriding government, except on Earth, where the Federation is the government.

I haven't seen the episode about the Jake thing so I'll refrain from commenting on that. The Federation can easily jam/block journalistic attempts -- but what evidence do we see of widespread use of this sort of tactic? Remember the political officer in the Hunt for Red October on the Russian sub? We haven't seen any political enforcement officials in Star Trek. Apparently, unless you ruffle the feathers of those highest up the food chain, you'll be left alone. Again, there simply isn't enough information to draw any definite conclusions, other than the Federation can stop journalism, not that it uses this tactic as a means of controlling the populace.

Brian

[Darth Wong]

Not trying to bud in, but I have a couple observations. Whether or not we like Enterprise (series, and I sure don't), it still is Star Trek, not some alternate universe. If you mean that Enterprise is pre-Federation, then point accepted -- you cannot compare pre-Federation Earth to Federation Earth. However if later on, there is an episode regarding how the Federation is formed and the principles of the Federation and political setup and so forth, it would be canon.

It is also impossible to reconcile the ENT timeline with the existing Trek timeline. If it's all canon, then Star Trek heavily contradicts itself and one cannot say with any certainty what is and is not true in that universe.

I am still working with the idea as the Federation as a sort of "NATO" or "UN" rather than an all encompasing government. It would make more sense, and solve certain problems. The Federation seems to allow members autonomy (I don't remember the episode where Picard says this, correct me if I am wrong). So perhaps the Federation is more a military protectorate rather than an overriding government, except on Earth, where the Federation is the government.

OK, then where are all of the journalistic organizations from all of the member planets, asking what the fuck is going on?

I haven't seen the episode about the Jake thing so I'll refrain from commenting on that. The Federation can easily jam/block journalistic attempts -- but what evidence do we see of widespread use of this sort of tactic? Remember the political officer in the Hunt for Red October on the Russian sub? We haven't seen any political enforcement officials in Star Trek.

Every ship has a "counsellor" who serves the purpose of identifying personnel who are misbehaving, and who can be sent off to the same kinds of "re-education centres" that Kasidy Yates was sent to. And what was her crime, by the way? Ferrying weapons to the Maquis? People who live outside Federation territory? What business does the Federation have imprisoning people for ferrying weapons outside Federation territory to the Maquis who are also outside of Federation territory?

Apparently, unless you ruffle the feathers of those highest up the food chain, you'll be left alone. Again, there simply isn't enough information to draw any definite conclusions, other than the Federation can stop journalism, not that it uses this tactic as a means of controlling the populace.

That conclusion is more than enough to show that there is a problem here.

[brianeyci]

It is also impossible to reconcile the ENT timeline with the existing Trek timeline. If it's all canon, then Star Trek heavily contradicts itself and one cannot say with any certainty what is and is not true in that universe.

However thick the morass may be, we should wade it... the discontinuities got to be treated on a case-by-case basis.

OK, then where are all of the journalistic organizations from all of the member planets, asking what the fuck is going on?

Who knows. Maybe they're whacking off. Absence of proof doesn't mean proof of absence though. It is a good question, and there's no good answers. A reasonable explaination is that the episode ended a few minutes after, and we saw the unfolding events from a different perspective. Still not satisfying, I know.

Maybe there is another explaination... I think it has been metioned before. Perhaps the public saw this as a routine troop deployment as the result of an imminent Dominion invasion. Routine stuff.

Every ship has a "counsellor" who serves the purpose of identifying personnel who are misbehaving, and who can be sent off to the same kinds of "re-education centres" that Kasidy Yates was sent to. And what was her crime, by the way? Ferrying weapons to the Maquis? People who live outside Federation territory? What business does the Federation have imprisoning people for ferrying weapons outside Federation territory to the Maquis who are also outside of Federation territory?

The Marquis were engaged in terrorist activities against the Federation. I actually don't remember Kasidy Yates. But, it would be reasonable for the Federation to send low-level terrorists to a "re-education camp" aka prison camp.

That conclusion is more than enough to show that there is a problem here.

True. However I would want to see the inner mechanics of the Federation before drawing conclusion such as the Federation is a Third Reich in hiding. Again hard for me to debate with this line of reasoning.

Brian

[TheDarkling]

You mean THREE years of pre-revolution Trek, since ENT does not exist in any kind of self-consistent reality with the other series.

TOS probably has more contradictions with TNG than Ent has with TNG, they are all canon and if you don't like it then I couldn't care less.
I would far prefer to strike off Jeri Taylor’s hackerey than Enterprise but I am going to live with both because that is the canon policy, which is what I believe is followed around here.

And none of those three years showed people living off-ship, with their wives and kids, etc. in an off-mission setting.

So at least we agree that focus is important.

All of DS9's seven years did, with a considerable amount of time spent in a fucking bar.

I would expect to hear more about sports than politics in a bar, we hear very little of the former so I'm not surprised about the latter.
Perhaps we just didn't spend enough time in the bar.

We do hear about Bajorans politics but only when it is relevant to the episode at hand and otherwise we don't hear about that really either.

Oh right, because no one ever talks politics except the night before an election

People don't constantly talk politics, if we don't hear them talk about politics in the 0.22% of their lives we see (most of which time they are busy fighting off aliens of stopping the station exploding) then I am not going to be shocked.

Nor is there any indication that democratic elections are a requirement of Federation membership.

Bajor applied for Federation membership and was a democracy (although one with far to much religious influence for my liking), when the Kes attempt to join the Federation Riker lists them being a Democracy as a good (even necessary thing).

Riker: "Kesprytt is a deeply troubled
world with social, political, and
military problems that it has yet
to resolve. The Kes, although a
friendly and democratic people,
are driven by suspicion,
deviousness, and paranoia. In the
opinion of this officer, they are
not ready for membership."

That reads to me as although they are democratic they still aren't ready as if being a democracy was a necessary prerequisite for membership.

This would be backed up by Kor terming the Federation a "democratic rabble".

Quark says Ferenginar is going to turn into a Federation planet with the Nagus' reforms and exclaims

QUARK
(calling out to
heaven)
Oh Blessed Exchequer... forgive
us... your children have turned
to... democracy.

Dax talks favourably about the Klingons experiment with Democracy (The Klingons on the other hand call it the "Dark times").

The evidence certainly points in the direction of the Federation being a democracy of at least some stripe.

Back to the issue of the total absence of journalistic curiosity and protests during the global blackout and subsequent coup on Earth, your answers amount to nothing more than hand-waving.

How so?

We see 45 minutes of Earth after the blackout, of which we follow Sisko for most of it.

The only Earth citizen we really watch during this time is Sisko’s Dad who is more concerned with what to feed the soldiers than he is about having them around.

If you have any reason to believe the Press/News wasn’t reporting on events (once they were back up and running) then I would like to hear it.

As for protests, why would there be any?

The entire power grid goes down and the “troops” are deployed, why would that engender protests? especially from Federations citizens who are laid back beyond all reason and don’t see Starfleet as a threatening organisation.

The fact that Jake was surprised when his transmissions were censored without his knowledge doesn't prove much; it was done without his knowledge; how could he possibly NOT be surprised, no matter what impositions he's used to? It doesn't prove that journalists in the Federation do not meekly step aside the moment they are told not to investigate something.

He went off about the freedom of the press, why should he believe the Dominion would honour such if the Federation doesn't?

[TheDarkling]

It is also impossible to reconcile the ENT timeline with the existing Trek timeline. If it's all canon, then Star Trek heavily contradicts itself and one cannot say with any certainty what is and is not true in that universe.

How so?