[Barton]The Federation is NOT Communist.

Only now, at the end, do you understand.

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Post by brianeyci »

This is an old topic, but rather than creating a new thread, I fished out the first old thread I found.
Jon wrote:A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
Let's work with this definition (thanks Jon for saving me looking it up in the dictionary). I think it is useful to break down this argument into two parts -- economic and the setup of the UFP government. Please read the whole argument before replying to individual points -- the points themselves are not supposed to be singular rebuttals to the idea of the Federation being communist, but rather are connected arguments.

Government

There is no doubt that the state plans and controls the economy right? Wrong. There is a rational reason why the state doesn't need to control the economy. The "economy" becomes obsolete in Star Trek. This is discussed in the economic part of the argument.

Authoritarian? What do we usually associate with Authoritarian? Well for one thing, we associate lack of rights, lack of appeal, lack of free speech, and so forth. However, we know from Picard that there is a "Seventh Guarantee" in the Federation. There is no reason to infer that the "Seventh Guarantee" is anything like the "Seventh Admendment" from that statement alone. However, given the context that a member of Picard's crew was being tried by an Admiral and not a jury of his peers, and Picard was making the comment regarding said trial, one can infer that the Federation's "Seventh Guarantee" is similar to the "Seventh Admendment." Note that Picard said that the "Seventh Guarantee" is a fundamental right of Federation citizens, not simply a military term for military trials. As well it is easy to bring up examples of freedom of speech -- the Doctor in Voyager publishing his holo-novel for example. Sure, you can find examples of "trial by peers" in communist societies. That is not the point of this example. The point of this example is that there is evidence that a separate document exists that protects the fundamental rights of Federation citizens. What these rights are apparently includes freedom of speech and right of trial by peers. Doesn't sound very authortarian to me.

Single party system? Where do we get canon proof of that? Do we even get canon examples of the inner workings of Federation government? Note that I said Federation government, not Starfleet Command structure. What little we see of the Federation government is in the older TOS movies, which indicates nothing about party structure.

Let us jump to the last part of the definition before engaging in the economic argument. The definition states "claiming to aspire to a higher social order"? The keyword is "claim". The Federation IS aspiring to a higher social order -- the accumulation of knowledge and mastery of mental faculty, which will be discussed in the economic part of my argument.

Economic

Imagine a machine that could make a car. Imagine this machine being accessible to the average joe. Imagine that all you had to do was plug in this machine to the wall, and you could make any car you want. Also imagine that this machine has a sufficiently advanced artificial intelligence so you do not have to literally tell the machine what a car is or how to make it -- an average person with no knowledge of a car could simply direct the machine what he wanted, and the machine could infer the design of the car and create it. Now imagine this machine could make food. In fact, the machine could make almost everything you desired!

In Star Trek, this is the replicator. The lack of a economy does not mean regulation of the economy. In fact, after a few generations, the occupations involving accumulation of wealth would become obsolete, as nobody would require your goods, and everybody would be able to create a good standard of living with a replicator. Of course, there are certain things you cannot replicate -- land for instance, or special unreplicatable materials, or trades and skills. You cannot tell the replicator to build a house for you. But in comes the other part of my argument.

In a society where material goods no longer mattered as much, what would matter? If money were no longer required to purchase most everyday items, what would be the new economic currency? If material wealth did not matter, the next most obvious commodity is mental wealth. Remember in TOS when Kirk and McCoy were worried about that US Airforce pilot integrating into their society? Kirk and McCoy were worried about the pilot's intellectual capacity, that he would be "useless" in their society without retraining. You could make the same argument about someone in the 16th century coming into the 21st century, but the details would not be the person's intellectual capacity, it would be their social and societial ignorance you would be worried about most, not their "level of training".

We see no evidence of a "fedcredit" denomination (correct me if I am wrong) in canon. Sure we see examples of "money", such as McCoy trying to charter a flight. But usually, these examples refer to commodities and services not normally obtainable by a replicator. There is no reason why an average Federation citizen would have need for use of a "fedcredit", except under unusual circumstances. Indeed, Picard himself talks about lack of use of "money", and so does Kirk. So, in a society without some form of currency, how does one accumulate wealth? The only way left is mastery of the mind. Star Trek works on the concept of a knowledge based society.

Final Notes

Sure we can find examples of Star Trek being authoritarian. Sure we can find individual examples of the lack of an economy. However, most of the examples of authoritarian action would be involving Starfleet tribunals and Starfleet, not the average Federation citizen. Just because the Federation lacks an economy in the traditional sense involving money, it does not mean they restrict it. This is explained by the use of replicators. If you want to claim that the Federation restricts the economy, the onus is on you. Replicators make the need for a traditional economy obsolete.

When you say the Federation is communist, you must be clear on what you are communicating. The definition we worked with fits modern day communist regimes, and does not fit the "theoretical" idea of communism as equality for everybody. What people usually think of when they think of communism are Stalin, Kim-Jong-Il, Fidel Castro, and so forth. The "layperson's" definition of communism involves these types of characters, as does the working definition. The dictionary definition does not mesh with the theoretical definition of "equality for all", but rather acknowledges the reality of the working definition. "Single Party", "Authoritarian", "claiming to aspire to a higher social order", and "controlling the economy" are not what we have seen in canon.

If you want to say "Star Trek does not have an economy", you have no argument from me. Star Trek does not have a traditional economy. However, if you want to say "Star Trek regulates the economy and therefore the Federation is communist", I do have a problem with that.

As well, we see no evidence of the fundamental principle of theoretical communism. "Equality" for everybody means every single person has equal material wealth. But when material wealth no longer matters, and the only kind of wealth that matters is mental and creative wealth, obviously there cannot be "equality". There can be "equity", such as the opportunity to go to Starfleet Academy, to become a restauranteer, and so forth if you wish. If you want to prove "equality", you have a steep hill to climb, given that Star Trek does not judge its wealth in the amount of useless trinkets that someone owns, but rather the ability of a person to better himself through his mind. Equity is not equality, and without equality, you do not even have the theoretical version of communism.

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Post by Darth Wong »

That idiotic "replicator eliminates the economy" bullshit has been shot down so many times it isn't funny. Please grow a brain.
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Post by brianeyci »

Darth Wong wrote:That idiotic "replicator eliminates the economy" bullshit has been shot down so many times it isn't funny. Please grow a brain.
Please don't put words into my mouth. I never said that "the replicator eliminates the economy". I said that the replicator "eliminates a the sense of a traditional economy, one based on money". Services would still be a commodity, although goods would not. What are services but forms of knowledge? Star Trek is a knowledge based society, not a society based on material wealth.

If Star Trek is a knowledge-based society, you cannot have communism. If knowledge is the main commodity, then you can never have equality, simply because knowledge is unique to the individual. Therefore you do not even have the theoretical version of communism.

As well, the "replicator" argument is not my whole argument. If you want to draw conclusions of the Federation based on only one aspect -- the lack of a traditional economy -- then you are limiting yourself and ignoring the larger picture.

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Post by Darth Wong »

brianeyci wrote:Please don't put words into my mouth. I never said that "the replicator eliminates the economy". I said that the replicator "eliminates a the sense of a traditional economy, one based on money". Services would still be a commodity, although goods would not. What are services but forms of knowledge? Star Trek is a knowledge based society, not a society based on material wealth.
Obviously, you still don't understand that replicators do NOT eliminate industry, moron. And money is nothing more than a way of quantifying goods and services!
If Star Trek is a knowledge-based society, you cannot have communism. If knowledge is the main commodity, then you can never have equality, simply because knowledge is unique to the individual. Therefore you do not even have the theoretical version of communism.
Again, more bullshit; knowledge locked up in someone's head is useless until it's used to perform a service. A knowledge-based economy is basically a service economy.
As well, the "replicator" argument is not my whole argument. If you want to draw conclusions of the Federation based on only one aspect -- the lack of a traditional economy -- then you are limiting yourself and ignoring the larger picture.
If you want to define communism strictly via a one-line dictionary definition rather than Marx's communist manifesto and wave away all of the industrial concerns by pointing to replicators, you are being an idiot.
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Post by brianeyci »

Darth Wong wrote:Obviously, you still don't understand that replicators do NOT eliminate industry, moron. And money is nothing more than a way of quantifying goods and services!
Replicators eliminate many, many industries. Read into your definition -- money quantifies "goods and services". "Money" in the Federation would not quantify "goods and services". Indeed, it is not even called money. The new wealth is knowledge, and knowledge is services.
Again, more bullshit; knowledge locked up in someone's head is useless until it's used to perform a service. A knowledge-based economy is basically a service economy.
Yes, exactly what I am implying. A knowledge-based economy would provide services, and only services, rather than goods.
If you want to define communism strictly via a one-line dictionary definition rather than Marx's communist manifesto and wave away all of the industrial concerns by pointing to replicators, you are being an idiot.
The fundamental concept of communism Marx is alluding to (correct me if I am wrong) is equality. Government control of industry is a means of achieving this equality. Since the measure of wealth in the Federation is not material wealth, but rather knowledge-based wealth, there can never be equality. There can be equity.

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Post by Darth Wong »

brianeyci wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Obviously, you still don't understand that replicators do NOT eliminate industry, moron. And money is nothing more than a way of quantifying goods and services!
Replicators eliminate many, many industries.
Such as?
Read into your definition -- money quantifies "goods and services". "Money" in the Federation would not quantify "goods and services". Indeed, it is not even called money. The new wealth is knowledge, and knowledge is services.
Again, more bullshit; knowledge locked up in someone's head is useless until it's used to perform a service. A knowledge-based economy is basically a service economy.
Yes, exactly what I am implying. A knowledge-based economy would provide services, and only services, rather than goods.
You still think there will be no industry with replicators. Prove it, dumbshit.
If you want to define communism strictly via a one-line dictionary definition rather than Marx's communist manifesto and wave away all of the industrial concerns by pointing to replicators, you are being an idiot.
The fundamental concept of communism Marx is alluding to (correct me if I am wrong) is equality. Government control of industry is a means of achieving this equality. Since the measure of wealth in the Federation is not material wealth, but rather knowledge-based wealth, there can never be equality. There can be equity.
How many times do I have to fucking point out that your idiotic assumption about replicators eliminating the need for production is completely unsupported bullshit before you even TRY to address it?
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brianeyci wrote: Replicators eliminate many, many industries. Read into your definition -- money quantifies "goods and services". "Money" in the Federation would not quantify "goods and services". Indeed, it is not even called money. The new wealth is knowledge, and knowledge is services.
you still need someone to manufacture the replicators. and you still need people to mine the raw materials that go into the replicators. and you still need people to build starships, run mining operations, maintain the replicators themselves, etc. simply having a convenience like replicators no more eliminates the need for goods and services as it opens up new industries which they need people to maintain. that would be like arguing because computers made a variety of goods and services obsolete the US is not a goods and services based industry.

Yes, exactly what I am implying. A knowledge-based economy would provide services, and only services, rather than goods.
people with specialized knowledge make goods for modern industry. someone with specialized knowledge would be designing new technology, for example, which is a good, not a service. your reasoning isn't quite working here.
The fundamental concept of communism Marx is alluding to (correct me if I am wrong) is equality. Government control of industry is a means of achieving this equality. Since the measure of wealth in the Federation is not material wealth, but rather knowledge-based wealth, there can never be equality. There can be equity.
a government doesn't have to attain the communist ideal in order to still be considered communist.
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Darth Wong wrote:How many times do I have to fucking point out that your idiotic assumption about replicators eliminating the need for production is completely unsupported bullshit before you even TRY to address it?
Very well, so your main objection is that replicators do not eliminate industry. To counter this argument, I will have to dig deeper for references into the capabilities of replicators, which for now I am recalling from memory,

1. Replicators produce food.

Agriculture, food production, and so forth would be rendered obsolete. We hear in TNG that "poverty has been elminated" by Troi. "Poverty" could mean many things, but it is safe to assume that Troi is saying that nobody goes hungry at the very least. I am not an expert on macroeconomics, but I remember reading somewhere that the population of Earth can only support about half of the current 6 billion (correct me if I am wrong) people on Earth. Replicators solve this problem.

2. There is evidence of large replicators.

I need to check on this first, but I remember a canon reference to the Federation donating several industrial replicators to assist in the reconstruction of Cardassia in the aftermath of the Dominion War. The Federation did not ship industrial and building materials -- it sent replicators.

More will come later. Will I have to argue that the replicators eliminate every possible industry before you accept my point?

<edit> one more point. Again, you are putting words in my mouth by saying that replicators eliminate the need for production. In my original post I acknowledge that there may be certain goods that are unobtainable by replicators.

I can keep listing examples of industries that would be obsolete, or seriously damaged to the point that they would not be economically viable in a society with mass deployed replicators. You can create hypothetical industries -- however, hypothetical is the keyword.

</edit>

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Post by brianeyci »

Darth_Zod wrote:you still need someone to manufacture the replicators. and you still need people to mine the raw materials that go into the replicators. and you still need people to build starships, run mining operations, maintain the replicators themselves, etc. simply having a convenience like replicators no more eliminates the need for goods and services as it opens up new industries which they need people to maintain. that would be like arguing because computers made a variety of goods and services obsolete the US is not a goods and services based industry.
Why would replicators be unable to manufacture more replicators? Again, I am not saying that replicators eliminate "goods and services". Please do not put words into my mouth, and please read my entire post. I am saying the replicators eliminate "goods", and services eg. knowledge are the wealth of the Federation.
people with specialized knowledge make goods for modern industry. someone with specialized knowledge would be designing new technology, for example, which is a good, not a service. your reasoning isn't quite working here.
Yes, but the majority of Federation citizens would not be engaged in high-tech research. The point is that the economy is based on services, not on goods, and thus wealth is no longer measured in terms of material wealth.
a government doesn't have to attain the communist ideal in order to still be considered communist.
Okay. Then you work with the dictionary definition, which I piece-by-piece argue against in my first post. If you work with the ideal definition, then you cannot consider the Federation communist, because it is not aspiring to equality. Either the Federation is working towards the ideal definition of communism, or the Federation is working towards the "working" definition of communism. Take your pick.

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Post by General Zod »

brianeyci wrote: Why would replicators be unable to manufacture more replicators? Again, I am not saying that replicators eliminate "goods and services". Please do not put words into my mouth, and please read my entire post. I am saying the replicators eliminate "goods", and services eg. knowledge are the wealth of the Federation.
If replicators could make more replicators then why didn't the bajorans who received the industrial replicator from the federation use it to replicate another industrial replicator?


Yes, but the majority of Federation citizens would not be engaged in high-tech research. The point is that the economy is based on services, not on goods, and thus wealth is no longer measured in terms of material wealth.
and that knowledge is useless until it's applied. Hence using it to make some type of good or service. The fact that resources are finite means there is some form of material distribution of resources, and thus wealth.

Okay. Then you work with the dictionary definition, which I piece-by-piece argue against in my first post. If you work with the ideal definition, then you cannot consider the Federation communist, because it is not aspiring to equality. Either the Federation is working towards the ideal definition of communism, or the Federation is working towards the "working" definition of communism. Take your pick.
the dictionary definition is a gross oversimplification of communism, and is in fact the ideal definition, which you don't seem to grasp. If you're going to argue against communism try reading up on the works that actually describe what communism is. It's like trying to argue against machiavelli's the Prince by going off of a dictionary based definition of his philosophy rather than the philosophy itself.
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Post by brianeyci »

Darth_Zod wrote:If replicators could make more replicators then why didn't the bajorans who received the industrial replicator from the federation use it to replicate another industrial replicator?
Very well, perhaps there is some element in replicators that cannot be replicated. Or perhaps creating a replicator would not be as simple as replicating a replicator. It does not damage the case for replicators, for once a person had a single replicator, he could concievably create enough food for himself for his lifetime assuming the power source did not run out.

You are suggesting that a large replicator industry implies that a good is being produced. I argue that once one person has one replicator, that good never has to be produced again. The replicator industry is one example of an industry -- however, I could list many more industries that would be rendered obsolete by replicators, fundamental industries such as resource exploitation, agriculture, and so on.
and that knowledge is useless until it's applied. Hence using it to make some type of good or service. The fact that resources are finite means there is some form of material distribution of resources, and thus wealth.
Good. However, knowledge in our society is not the same as knowledge in the Star Trek society. How difficult would it be to create a replicator rather than engaging in physical labour? I am not arguing against wealth -- I am arguing that wealth is measured in a different way, since material needs are not the primary concern of Federation citizens.
The dictionary definition is a gross oversimplification of communism, and is in fact the ideal definition, which you don't seem to grasp. If you're going to argue against communism try reading up on the works that actually describe what communism is. It's like trying to argue against machiavelli's the Prince by going off of a dictionary based definition of his philosophy rather than the philosophy itself.
Very well. However, I will risk "oversimplfying" the argument by saying that the idea of communism, the true ideal of communism, is equality. Am I incorrect in this point? If Marx's theories are ways on going about achieving this equality -- it is safe to say that he did not anticipate replicators.

If you argue that the goal of communism is material equality, and simply apply it to Star Trek, you are not grasping the whole picture. The Federation does not have a monetary denomination nor do canon examples show that Federation citizens have a good grasp on material wealth. Therefore the Federation's true "wealth" is in the minds of its citizens. In order to have communism, you must have or aspire to equality. Equality in knowledge is impossible by the way the Federation goes about it -- to do it, you'd need those mind control devices in TNG that Wesley saved the ship from. Therefore, the Federation does not aspire to communism.

Saying that the Federation aspires to "equality" is like saying that Canada aspires to "equality" because we have a national healthcare system. The Federation may be "socialist" but it is not communist.

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Post by Jon »

If you're going to argue against communism try reading up on the works that actually describe what communism is.
Have. The UFP does not sit within the basic parameters of 'what communism really is'.
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brianeyci wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:How many times do I have to fucking point out that your idiotic assumption about replicators eliminating the need for production is completely unsupported bullshit before you even TRY to address it?
Very well, so your main objection is that replicators do not eliminate industry. To counter this argument, I will have to dig deeper for references into the capabilities of replicators, which for now I am recalling from memory,

1. Replicators produce food.

Agriculture, food production, and so forth would be rendered obsolete.
Yet they have both farms and restaurants, because people prefer real food. Strike One against your argument. Moreover, replicators require labour to maintain, build, design, and supply. Strike Two against your argument.
We hear in TNG that "poverty has been elminated" by Troi. "Poverty" could mean many things, but it is safe to assume that Troi is saying that nobody goes hungry at the very least.
Poverty is defined as the lower-tier of material status, regardless of how comfortable it is. Only total equality of material status would eliminate poverty, so this actually proves my point, not yours. Strike Three. You're out.
I am not an expert on macroeconomics, but I remember reading somewhere that the population of Earth can only support about half of the current 6 billion (correct me if I am wrong) people on Earth. Replicators solve this problem.
You heard wrong. The Earth's current population could be fed if its resources were used more efficiently, and replicators do NOT solve the problem. Where do you think they're going to get the raw foodstock to pump into these replicators? Do you think replicators make stuff out of nothing? They're a modified transporter; they make it out of raw materials, and they are limited in many ways; the raw material must be elementally similar to the finished product.
2. There is evidence of large replicators.

I need to check on this first, but I remember a canon reference to the Federation donating several industrial replicators to assist in the reconstruction of Cardassia in the aftermath of the Dominion War. The Federation did not ship industrial and building materials -- it sent replicators.
Irrelevant to the question of whether they eliminate industry.
More will come later. Will I have to argue that the replicators eliminate every possible industry before you accept my point?

Brian
You have not shown that they would eliminate a single industry, you idiot.

EDIT: One more thought; if your theory of replicators being essentially magic is true, then why do they have mining colonies, genius? For kicks?
Last edited by Darth Wong on 2004-10-14 11:59am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Jon wrote:
If you're going to argue against communism try reading up on the works that actually describe what communism is.
Have. The UFP does not sit within the basic parameters of 'what communism really is'.
Let us not resort to the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, shall we? Communism was invented by Marx, and if something fits all or most of the criteria Marx laid out in the Communist Manifesto, it's communist. It certainly isn't capitalist!
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Post by brianeyci »

Darth Wong wrote:Yet they have both farms and restaurants, because people prefer real food. Strike One against your argument. Moreover, replicators require labour to maintain, build, design, and supply. Strike Two against your argument.
Very well. However, the only example of a farm that we see is Picard's vineyard, which could be justified as Picard family's stubborness not to convert to replicator technology. Yes, people prefer real food, but is there evidence that people eat real food all the time? The farm idea could be a niche market. I know this idea is unsupported, however, can you support your idea that the population of Earth feeds itself through "real" food?

A better argument is against the replicators. Replicators do not need to be manufactured once a person has one. Maintainence is a service. Supply is a service. Replicators should be a niche market, given that once a person has a replicator, they can replicate whatever they like within reason.
Poverty is defined as the lower-tier of material status, regardless of how comfortable it is. Only total equality of material status would eliminate poverty, so this actually proves my point, not yours. Strike Three. You're out.
Again, I am not arguing for total equality of material status. I am accepting that definition -- Star Trek has equality in material wealth. However, what I am saying is that wealth in Star Trek cannot be measured in terms of materials because of this definition. Therefore, the wealth in Star Trek is knowledge-based, or service based.

<edit> sorry I reread the above paragraph and realized that it did not make sense. The above paragraph should read -

Again, I am no arguing against total equality of material status. I am accepting that definition -- Star Trek has equality in material wealth. However, what I am saying is that wealth in Star Trek cannot be measured in terms of materials. The wealth in Star Trek is knowledge-based, or service-based. </edit>
You heard wrong. The Earth's current population could be fed if its resources were used more efficiently, and replicators do NOT solve the problem. Where do you think they're going to get the raw foodstock to pump into these replicators? Do you think replicators make stuff out of nothing? They're a modified transporter; they make it out of raw materials, and they are limited in many ways; the raw material must be elementally similar to the finished product.
Accepted. But we did not see in TNG the Enterprise-D making pitstops to pick up food at all. The only time we saw this was in Voyager -- and perhaps Neelix simply wanted an excuse to get real food and visit other planets.

I never said that the replicators made "stuff" from nothing. To have a new product elementally similar to the old one, the replicator doesn't require that you stuff in a tomato to produce a tomato.
Irrelevant to the question of whether they eliminate industry
Large replicators by themselves do not eliminate industry. However, because they can create large items in massive quantities, such as raw materials and resources. There is a reference in TOS to this. When Kirk gets beamed down onto a planet and an alien tries to "bribe" Kirk with gems and precious jewels, Kirk says that his ship can produce "tons" of those gems (don't know exactly the unit, but he said a lot). Raw material extraction would not be an industry in Star Trek, except for materials that could not be replicated.
You have not shown that they would eliminate a single industry, you idiot.
Correct. But my point was asking whether I would have to show that they eliminated a single industry to prove my point. Even if there are industries in Star Trek, I am not proposing that Star Trek has no industries. I see now the difference between what you think I am trying to prove, and what I am actually trying to prove. I am proposing that the Federation is a society based on services, rather than goods, and that this type of economy need not measure wealth through material goods. I am not proposing that there are no industries.

Brian

note : I put in a small edit in my last post, you might want to reply to that point, sorry. Next time I'll put new points in new posts.
Last edited by brianeyci on 2004-10-14 12:26pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by brianeyci »

Darth Wong wrote:EDIT: One more thought; if your theory of replicators being essentially magic is true, then why do they have mining colonies, genius? For kicks?
If replicators work the way they do in canon, then there is a good explaination for mining colonies -- perhaps they mine materials for replicator production that cannot be produced in replicators. (do we know what the mining colony is actually mining for, is it canon?) Perhaps they need raw materials to use the replicators like you proposed. However, I am not arguing that there are no industries. I am arguing that industry would play a subservent role to the production of services, which are knowledge-based tasks.

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Post by brianeyci »

Darth Wong wrote:Let us not resort to the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, shall we? Communism was invented by Marx, and if something fits all or most of the criteria Marx laid out in the Communist Manifesto, it's communist. It certainly isn't capitalist!
DW is right Jon, you can't say that the Federation is capitalist. DW, in case you misinterpreted me, I am not attempting to say the Federation is capitalist -- that is the main flaw I see in previous arguments by ST against the communist proposal.

I create a theory which explains why ST has a fundamentally different economy than communist ones -- one that is based on wealth in knowledge as services, rather than goods.

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brianeyci wrote: Very well. However, the only example of a farm that we see is Picard's vineyard, which could be justified as Picard family's stubborness not to convert to replicator technology. Yes, people prefer real food, but is there evidence that people eat real food all the time? The farm idea could be a niche market. I know this idea is unsupported, however, can you support your idea that the population of Earth feeds itself through "real" food?
where exactly do you think the replicators get the real material to synthesize the food they make from? they certainly don't create it from nothing. we have all kinds of artificial foods and other things now. but we still have to get the basic ingredients from somewhere
A better argument is against the replicators. Replicators do not need to be manufactured once a person has one. Maintainence is a service. Supply is a service. Replicators should be a niche market, given that once a person has a replicator, they can replicate whatever they like within reason.
that person still needs raw materials to actually replicate something. as, once again, it's simply a type of transporter technology. raw materials don't come from out of nowhere.
Accepted. But we did not see in TNG the Enterprise-D making pitstops to pick up food at all. The only time we saw this was in Voyager -- and perhaps Neelix simply wanted an excuse to get real food and visit other planets.
that's because it was never a necessary part of the plot element. In voyager they had to restock supplies constantly because they were nowhere near any regular federation outposts. The fact that they were actually rationing the uses of the replicator out to crewmembers is another nail in the coffin for your argument.
I never said that the replicators made "stuff" from nothing. To have a new product elementally similar to the old one, the replicator doesn't require that you stuff in a tomato to produce a tomato.
it requires the raw compounds however. where else are they going to get the compounds from if they don't take the actual thing and convert it into a more manageable form that the replicators can handle? You have to have something of the original in order to make a synthetic version in the first place.

Large replicators by themselves do not eliminate industry. However, because they can create large items in massive quantities, such as raw materials and resources.
the replicators can't create raw materials. they can however create refined materials. there's a significant difference between the two.
There is a reference in TOS to this. When Kirk gets beamed down onto a planet and an alien tries to "bribe" Kirk with gems and precious jewels, Kirk says that his ship can produce "tons" of those gems (don't know exactly the unit, but he said a lot). Raw material extraction would not be an industry in Star Trek, except for materials that could not be replicated.
we can synthesize diamonds today. that doesn't mean we can create them from nothing. it would be trivially easy for someone with the technological capability in star trek to synthesize dozens of gemstones from raw material. that doesn't eliminate the need for the raw material itself however.

Correct. But my point was asking whether I would have to show that they eliminated a single industry to prove my point. Even if there are industries in Star Trek, I am not proposing that Star Trek has no industries. I see now the difference between what you think I am trying to prove, and what I am actually trying to prove. I am proposing that the Federation is a society based on services, rather than goods, and that this type of economy need not measure wealth through material goods. I am not proposing that there are no industries.
how would simply changing what the economy places a value on change whether or not a nation is communist or not?
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Post by Darth Wong »

brianeyci wrote:Very well. However, the only example of a farm that we see is Picard's vineyard, which could be justified as Picard family's stubborness not to convert to replicator technology. Yes, people prefer real food, but is there evidence that people eat real food all the time? The farm idea could be a niche market. I know this idea is unsupported, however, can you support your idea that the population of Earth feeds itself through "real" food?
Irrelevant. Either way, they need to manufacture raw foodstock in order to make the replicators work. The ratio of real food to replicated food (and I note that people on starships always go for real food when it's available) is not relevant to the discussion except to reduce the variety of things they have to grow.
A better argument is against the replicators. Replicators do not need to be manufactured once a person has one. Maintainence is a service. Supply is a service. Replicators should be a niche market, given that once a person has a replicator, they can replicate whatever they like within reason.
Classifying industrial activities such as manufacture of raw materials as "service" industries is just empty sophistry on your part. And the argument that you don't need one once you have one is stupid; you could say the same thing about televisions or cars. Do you figure they last forever? Even a fucking no-moving-parts lightbulb doesn't last forever.
Poverty is defined as the lower-tier of material status, regardless of how comfortable it is. Only total equality of material status would eliminate poverty, so this actually proves my point, not yours. Strike Three. You're out.
Again, I am not arguing for total equality of material status. I am accepting that definition -- Star Trek has equality in material wealth. However, what I am saying is that wealth in Star Trek cannot be measured in terms of materials because of this definition. Therefore, the wealth in Star Trek is knowledge-based, or service based.
And you are basing this argument upon the assumptions that a replicator requires no labour and can make anything: both wrong.
You heard wrong. The Earth's current population could be fed if its resources were used more efficiently, and replicators do NOT solve the problem. Where do you think they're going to get the raw foodstock to pump into these replicators? Do you think replicators make stuff out of nothing? They're a modified transporter; they make it out of raw materials, and they are limited in many ways; the raw material must be elementally similar to the finished product.
Accepted. But we did not see in TNG the Enterprise-D making pitstops to pick up food at all. The only time we saw this was in Voyager -- and perhaps Neelix simply wanted an excuse to get real food and visit other planets.
Don't be an idiot; the Enterprise stopped at starbases for resupply all the time. The fact that they don't explain exactly what supplies they're picking up doesn't change anything.
I never said that the replicators made "stuff" from nothing. To have a new product elementally similar to the old one, the replicator doesn't require that you stuff in a tomato to produce a tomato.
And where do you think raw foodstock comes from, then? No work required? And who transports it from points of manufacture to point of use? No work required? What do you think freighters in Star Trek are for?
Irrelevant to the question of whether they eliminate industry
Large replicators by themselves do not eliminate industry. However, because they can create large items in massive quantities, such as raw materials and resources.
Thanks for confirming that you're a moron. You need raw materials and resources in order to feed a replicator which will make ... raw materials and resources?
There is a reference in TOS to this. When Kirk gets beamed down onto a planet and an alien tries to "bribe" Kirk with gems and precious jewels, Kirk says that his ship can produce "tons" of those gems (don't know exactly the unit, but he said a lot). Raw material extraction would not be an industry in Star Trek, except for materials that could not be replicated.
I notice you don't bother to provide an episode name, direct quote, or any other verification aid. Moreover, you completely ignore all of the incidents in DS9 where Quark made deals for raw materials, gems, precious materials, etc. Pretty wasteful of him if he can just make it all out of his replicators for nothing, isn't it?
You have not shown that they would eliminate a single industry, you idiot.
Correct. But my point was asking whether I would have to show that they eliminated a single industry to prove my point. Even if there are industries in Star Trek, I am not proposing that Star Trek has no industries. I see now the difference between what you think I am trying to prove, and what I am actually trying to prove. I am proposing that the Federation is a society based on services, rather than goods, and that this type of economy need not measure wealth through material goods. I am not proposing that there are no industries.
All you've done is pretend that anything involving labour is a service industry. By that imbecilic "logic", we could reclassify all modern manufacturing as a "service" industry too.
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Post by brianeyci »

Darth Zod, DW, I accept your points that the replicators do not "create" things from noting, and concede that. (I believe all your above points are about that Darth Zod) However, that does not change my argument. I am arguing that wealth in Star Trek is measured differently than wealth in the traditional sense of wealth.
Darth_Zod wrote:how would simply changing what the economy places a value on change whether or not a nation is communist or not?
This is a very good point. Correct me if I am wrong, but Marx wrote his stuff with the intention that economic equality would produce equality. However, in the Federation, economic equality does not produce equality, since the economics in the Federation value knowledge-based wealth. Are you telling me that Marx anticipated the information age? He did not, and thought that economic control meant equality for citizenery. The information age changed that, and Star Trek is definitely an information or knowledge based environment. The Federation does not promote equality of the mind.

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Post by Darth Wong »

brianeyci wrote:The information age changed that, and Star Trek is definitely an information or knowledge based environment. The Federation does not promote equality of the mind.
Meaningless doublespeak. Even in the so-called information age, our world economy revolves around raw materials and manufacturing. The means of production are still just as important as they were in Marx's time. His mistake was in failing to account for human nature, not overestimating the importance of manufacturing.
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Post by brianeyci »

I accept all your above points DW, and realize I did not think things through carefully enough. However, I still do have an objection to the term "service and goods". Do you consider service and goods to be terms that cannot be separated from each other? That was my mistake, separating them. However, I modify my theory to propose that goods would be subservent to services, given the type of economic environment the Federation is in.
Darth Wong wrote:All you've done is pretend that anything involving labour is a service industry. By that imbecilic "logic", we could reclassify all modern manufacturing as a "service" industry too.
Yes my mistake. Now I see that separating the term "goods and services" is impossible. However, I propose that the primary professions that Federation citizenery are engaged in are not exploitation of resources, or creation or manufacturing of items. I propose that most Federation citizenery engage in providing services/goods. that are not available to be replicated.

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Post by Patrick Degan »

brianeyci wrote:The information age changed that, and Star Trek is definitely an information or knowledge based environment. The Federation does not promote equality of the mind.
Which has exactly nothing to do with the quantification of material value. Even in the Information Age, things have to be produced; a system for organising that production has to exist, and that means defining values for labour power, time, and raw material input as well as distribution of finished product.
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Post by brianeyci »

Darth Wong wrote:Meaningless doublespeak. Even in the so-called information age, our world economy revolves around raw materials and manufacturing. The means of production are still just as important as they were in Marx's time. His mistake was in failing to account for human nature, not overestimating the importance of manufacturing.
True, I wasn't clear enough with my point... the following is what I was trying to communicate. Are the majority of our citizenery engaged in intellectual tasks? If our economies were revolved around intellectual tasks, would not the economy be revolved around the worth of those intellectual tasks? And if Marx proposed economic equality, would not then his definition fail since the economy was not material-wealth based?

Does Marx propose that the majority of the... proletarit I believe is the term, should engage in intellectual tasks? I think he proposes that the majority should engage in industry, correct me if I am wrong.

<edit> Degan, the above should be considered a reply to your point as well, since you are arguing the same point as DW </edit>

<another edit> The term I used, "information age" is not correct. We are in a so-called "information age" now, and the majority of the world is engaged in physical labour tasks. Perhaps the right term would be 'knowledge-based' economy, a true information-age where knowledge truly meant economic prosperity. </edit>

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Post by Darth Wong »

brianeyci wrote:I accept all your above points DW, and realize I did not think things through carefully enough. However, I still do have an objection to the term "service and goods". Do you consider service and goods to be terms that cannot be separated from each other? That was my mistake, separating them. However, I modify my theory to propose that goods would be subservent to services, given the type of economic environment the Federation is in.
When the end-product is a service (for example, house cleaning or prostitution), it's obviously a service industry. But when the end-product is a manufactured item (for example, an engineer provides a service to a company which is building automobiles), it is a manufacturing industry rather than a service industry.
Darth Wong wrote:All you've done is pretend that anything involving labour is a service industry. By that imbecilic "logic", we could reclassify all modern manufacturing as a "service" industry too.
Yes my mistake. Now I see that separating the term "goods and services" is impossible. However, I propose that the primary professions that Federation citizenery are engaged in are not exploitation of resources, or creation or manufacturing of items. I propose that most Federation citizenery engage in providing services/goods. that are not available to be replicated.
I think you need to step back and look at how a factory works. In the old days, an artisan might have hand-crafted a chair, for example. Today, an automated assembly line can autonomously make that chair, and all you do is feed it raw material. Do you see how this is analogous to the replicator? The labour is not gone, and the need for raw materials has actually increased.

When you see the Federation, you mostly see Earth, which is a mostly service-oriented planet because it's the seat of government. It's like Washington DC; you don't expect to find much heavy industry there. But we know there are entire mining colonies, where everyone works to simply supply raw materials to industry. There are shippers, whose job is to transport raw materials around for eventual use. Automating or miniaturizing a production step does not fundamentally alter the nature of industry; it only allows for increased productivity and tends to shift the demand somewhere else, often towards raw materials. Look at how the industrial age reduced labour requirements for transportation, only to shift them to an enormous demand for manufactured transportation equipment and the raw material known as oil.
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