Get your fill of sci-fi, science, and mockery of stupid people
* FAQ    * Search   * Login 
Want to support this site? Click

Quote of the Week: "In the United States, the majority undertakes to supply a multitude of ready-made opinions for the use of individuals, who are thus relieved from the necessity of forming opinions of their own." - Alexis de Tocqueville, French writer (1805-1859)


All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 151 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: If Ancients (SG) tech is found in the SW galaxy.... PostPosted: 2009-02-06 01:56pm
Offline
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: 2006-03-13 09:04am
Posts: 1389
Location: Scotland
General Zod wrote:
PREDATOR490 wrote:
I cant think of anything they do that SW shields do not except the interesting effect pumping more power into ancient systems causes. A ZPM powered ANYTHING in SG is more powerful than normal so with the SW power generation Ancient shields could potentially become very effective in SW.


There's a ridiculously simple, almost stupidly simple explanation for this. It's not that the ZPMs make the technology more powerful by magic or anything. It's that the technology didn't have enough power before, so they weren't able to use their maximum capabilities without a greater power source to draw on, like the ZPM. But these are incredibly rare so you don't get to see Ancient tech used at its maximum capacity often.


Hence, Star Wars power generation technology should be able to run Ancient tech at maximum capacity. The maximum capacity however is a complete unknown unless ZPMs are taken as the maximum. IF so Ancient shields might be better used on smaller ships where a Star Wars generator will take more space than using a ZPM battery.
Star Wars shields are considerably stronger than Stargate shields from what I gather and the weapons technology is vastly more 'combat' orientated than the defensive drones the Ancients seem to use as their primary weapon. I suspect this is due to the lack of any real competition against the Ancients thus their combat experience and technology is rather lacking compared to the many thousands of years the SW galaxy combat technology has had to evolve.

Realistically, as a looter of an Ancient ship in the SW galaxy, I would be more interested in the hyperdrive and the databanks than anything else on it. The materials used in the SG universe may not exist in the SW galaxy or simply be unobtainable for various reasons. In which case the thing becomes a unique vessel rendered as a collectors item or sent to the bottom of a research facility which will tear it apart for anything that can be used.
Now, if the databanks contained information on how to get back to the SG universe... an intelligent businessman would see the potential for marketing SW tech to the SG universe and vice versa. Of course, one could sell the information to SW powers and watch as the SG universe gets hit with expansionist empires etc.

The latter of which would make the discussion of wether or not drones can pierce SW shields more relevant since it is more than likely someone is going to end up starting a fight sooner or later. Will this be the beginning of a new SW vs SG era since ST has had it's time ?

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: If Ancients (SG) tech is found in the SW galaxy.... PostPosted: 2009-02-06 04:15pm
Offline
Kneel before Zod!
User avatar

Joined: 2003-11-18 04:08pm
Posts: 26724
Location: F you
PREDATOR490 wrote:
Hence, Star Wars power generation technology should be able to run Ancient tech at maximum capacity. The maximum capacity however is a complete unknown unless ZPMs are taken as the maximum. IF so Ancient shields might be better used on smaller ships where a Star Wars generator will take more space than using a ZPM battery.


Complete unknown? No, we've been given examples of what it takes to drain a zpm in any number of episodes of Atlantis for a good mid-range limit. If you want to claim that ZPMs generate more power than SW power sources, then you should provide evidence to support this.



"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."

Image

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: If Ancients (SG) tech is found in the SW galaxy.... PostPosted: 2009-02-06 04:24pm
Offline
Jedi Knight
User avatar

Joined: 2005-09-20 11:56am
Posts: 649
PREDATOR490 wrote:
Realistically, as a looter of an Ancient ship in the SW galaxy, I would be more interested in the hyperdrive and the databanks than anything else on it. The materials used in the SG universe may not exist in the SW galaxy or simply be unobtainable for various reasons. In which case the thing becomes a unique vessel rendered as a collectors item or sent to the bottom of a research facility which will tear it apart for anything that can be used.
Now, if the databanks contained information on how to get back to the SG universe... an intelligent businessman would see the potential for marketing SW tech to the SG universe and vice versa. Of course, one could sell the information to SW powers and watch as the SG universe gets hit with expansionist empires etc.

The latter of which would make the discussion of wether or not drones can pierce SW shields more relevant since it is more than likely someone is going to end up starting a fight sooner or later. Will this be the beginning of a new SW vs SG era since ST has had it's time ?

Hmm... Not quite because while ST is crystal clear in just how powerful their shields and weaponry are in comparison to Wars there is nothing clear about that in SG where the firepower, shield strength seems solely determined by that particular episode's plot which makes it just about impossible to really make an accurate assessment. There are some things one can determine though like the fact that an ISD would pwn most SGverse ships but a few such as the Asgard and the Ori ships can anyone say for absolute certainty? Probably not because their strenght more than all others have been determined by the moment plot and that's it.

When it comes to the SGverse being hit by an ever expansionist galactic empire just how far can a nation as big as the galactic empire can really reach without spreading itself too thin in the process, the SGverse we are talking about not one but at least 3 or more known galaxies say for argument sake and this thread's OP benefit that the Corusca galaxy is in the remotest part of that cluster of galaxies so we do not have the problem of traveling from one universe to another. Still trying to seize control and power over so many galaxies and their millions of worlds would be a monumental task even for just one entire galaxy trying to take over all the remaining galaxies in the local cluster.



ImageImage

Visit my site:
------------------------------------------
http://scifiverse.tk/

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: If Ancients (SG) tech is found in the SW galaxy.... PostPosted: 2009-02-06 06:47pm
Offline
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: 2006-03-13 09:04am
Posts: 1389
Location: Scotland
General Zod wrote:
PREDATOR490 wrote:
Hence, Star Wars power generation technology should be able to run Ancient tech at maximum capacity. The maximum capacity however is a complete unknown unless ZPMs are taken as the maximum. IF so Ancient shields might be better used on smaller ships where a Star Wars generator will take more space than using a ZPM battery.


Complete unknown? No, we've been given examples of what it takes to drain a zpm in any number of episodes of Atlantis for a good mid-range limit. If you want to claim that ZPMs generate more power than SW power sources, then you should provide evidence to support this.


You put forward the premise that Ancient technology is not able to work at full capacity because the Ancients dont have enough power to satisfy demand. Hence, Star Wars power sources which can sustain much larger power demanding systems should be able to run Ancient technology at least to ZPM level standards. Assuming compatability between Star Wars power generation and SG technology naturally.
However, will SW power systems be able to generate greater results from Ancient technology beyond what a ZPM can or will it simply blow the fuses trying ?

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: If Ancients (SG) tech is found in the SW galaxy.... PostPosted: 2009-02-06 06:57pm
Offline
Kneel before Zod!
User avatar

Joined: 2003-11-18 04:08pm
Posts: 26724
Location: F you
PREDATOR490 wrote:
You put forward the premise that Ancient technology is not able to work at full capacity because the Ancients dont have enough power to satisfy demand. Hence, Star Wars power sources which can sustain much larger power demanding systems should be able to run Ancient technology at least to ZPM level standards.


You wrote:
I cant think of anything they do that SW shields do not except the interesting effect pumping more power into ancient systems causes. A ZPM powered ANYTHING in SG is more powerful than normal so with the SW power generation Ancient shields could potentially become very effective in SW.


I put forward no such premise about Star Wars technology. I only said that ZPMs do not magically alter something's power output, they only give it enough power to do what it couldn't before; like sticking a bigger battery into an RC car to make it faster. If you want to claim they'll be of benefit to SW systems, then you need to show that ZPMs generate more power than SW vessels are capable of doing so.

Quote:
Assuming compatability between Star Wars power generation and SG technology naturally.
However, will SW power systems be able to generate greater results from Ancient technology beyond what a ZPM can or will it simply blow the fuses trying ?


That depends on whether or not ZPMs produce more energy than SW power systems do . . .which hasn't been demonstrated.



"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."

Image

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: If Ancients (SG) tech is found in the SW galaxy.... PostPosted: 2009-02-06 07:32pm
Offline
Emperor's Hand
User avatar

Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Posts: 13169
Location: Looking for another drawer
Err-Zod? He's actually arguing the reverse of what you're saying. Since Ancient technology does become more effective with a more potent power source (i.e., ZPMs), Star Wars reactors which are again considerably more powerful than ZPMs could,assuming the systems can actually handle the load, make Ancient technology even MORE powerful than a ZPM could.



'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kids with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: If Ancients (SG) tech is found in the SW galaxy.... PostPosted: 2009-02-06 08:09pm
Offline
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: 2006-03-13 09:04am
Posts: 1389
Location: Scotland
Thank you, I was worried I wasnt conveying myself properly.

Quote:
Since Ancient technology does become more effective with a more potent power source (i.e., ZPMs), Star Wars reactors which are again considerably more powerful than ZPMs could,assuming the systems can actually handle the load, make Ancient technology even MORE powerful than a ZPM could.


With that in mind, the limit to how much more they can handle becomes a key point and how much effect it will have.
E.G If a Star Wars fighter reactor can make an Ancient shield run like a ZPM powered Ancient shield then how powerful will it be when plugged into the reactor of a Death Star ?

Depending on how well the power vs. Shield power scales the technology might be more useful in SW because I am of the distinct impression that even a fully powered Atlantis shield could not withstand an assualt from a Star Wars capital ship like the Acclamator troop transport depicted in the SW Vs Star Trek in Five Minutes page.
A.K.A 200 GT per shot from each turret x 12
Am I incorrect in this impression because otherwise basic Ancient shield technology is going to be effectively useless compared to SW shields, just like the drones will be effectively useless compared to the much more destructive weapon systems already used unless they offer something special that makes them worth using in a SW ship.

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: If Ancients (SG) tech is found in the SW galaxy.... PostPosted: 2009-02-06 08:33pm
Offline
Kneel before Zod!
User avatar

Joined: 2003-11-18 04:08pm
Posts: 26724
Location: F you
Batman wrote:
Err-Zod? He's actually arguing the reverse of what you're saying. Since Ancient technology does become more effective with a more potent power source (i.e., ZPMs), Star Wars reactors which are again considerably more powerful than ZPMs could,assuming the systems can actually handle the load, make Ancient technology even MORE powerful than a ZPM could.


The idea that Ancient tech could handle capabilities beyond what the ZPMs are capable of generating seems rather specious to me.



"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."

Image

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: If Ancients (SG) tech is found in the SW galaxy.... PostPosted: 2009-02-06 08:45pm
Offline
Emperor's Hand
User avatar

Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Posts: 13169
Location: Looking for another drawer
General Zod wrote:
Batman wrote:
Err-Zod? He's actually arguing the reverse of what you're saying. Since Ancient technology does become more effective with a more potent power source (i.e., ZPMs), Star Wars reactors which are again considerably more powerful than ZPMs could,assuming the systems can actually handle the load, make Ancient technology even MORE powerful than a ZPM could.

The idea that Ancient tech could handle capabilities beyond what the ZPMs are capable of generating seems rather specious to me.

That'd be the part where PREDATOR said 'assuming it doesn't blow the fuses', I suspect.



'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kids with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: If Ancients (SG) tech is found in the SW galaxy.... PostPosted: 2009-02-06 10:38pm
Offline
Jedi Knight
User avatar

Joined: 2005-09-20 11:56am
Posts: 649
Batman wrote:
Err-Zod? He's actually arguing the reverse of what you're saying. Since Ancient technology does become more effective with a more potent power source (i.e., ZPMs), Star Wars reactors which are again considerably more powerful than ZPMs could,assuming the systems can actually handle the load, make Ancient technology even MORE powerful than a ZPM could.


I think that that is what he meant as well given what we have seen of Ancient and Asgard tech.



ImageImage

Visit my site:
------------------------------------------
http://scifiverse.tk/

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: If Ancients (SG) tech is found in the SW galaxy.... PostPosted: 2009-02-07 04:31am
Offline
Padawan Learner
User avatar

Joined: 2005-12-25 05:29am
Posts: 193
Location: London
NecronLord wrote:
My mistake, it's based on the 'ice crystals' effect.

Yes, I think it's safe to consider that there are two different shielding technologies at work when the shield itself has a radically different visual appearance. And the fact that the 'ice' shields do have a definite 'raise' effect, whereas Goa'uld ship shields have never been seen to have either.

NecronLord wrote:
... And you assume that because purified naquadah is used, that must be the hull material?

Not weapons grade naquada, but even the Prometheus hull was constructed of a trinium-naquada alloy, I'm thinking the Goa'uld use naquada as a dual power source/armour plate in the same way the US uses Uranium for power generation/bombs and depleted uranium for tank rounds and tank armour.
NecronLord wrote:
What the hell? I don't want to know how long you think it must take to build them, with a few hundred jaffa working to purify the ore for the hull by hand. The idea that naquadah purification is required to construct them isn't unreasonable (they need fuel to build the damn things, and it's doubtless used in many components) but the idea that the whole ship is made of it? That's your supposition and nothing more.

Not really, see Prometheus, Earth has very limited access to naquada and they managed to build, at the last count, as least seven fairly large warships using naquada as part of the hull material. The Asguard also use naquada as part of the hull of thier newer ships.

And need I remind you that the only canonical source of naquada for Earth we've actually seen (unless they've started mining Anubis's asteroid) is an old Goa'uld mine that is currently being hand-worked by Unas?
NecronLord wrote:
The only time naquadah (alloy, mind ye!) has been mentioned as a hull material was for the O'neill class. And we know for a fact that the 303 didn't use that material.

As above, this is false, is is specifically stated that the Prometheus uses it in it's hull (or should that be used?) and there is no suggestion the same does not hold true for the 303's.
NecronLord wrote:
No, not really. We still see the quartz ones used in Anubis' ships too (to the point that its central computer is a massive chunk of the stuff)

I mentioned him in my first post you'll notice, and given this is Anubis, is him poking around with a chunk of Ancient computer tech really that surprising?
NecronLord wrote:
and we saw a whole stack of flat ones in Cronos' ship. I wouldn't say there's any reason to think that most goa'uld ships would not contain both.

Cronos' ship appears to be an outlier, we've seen the corridor cyrstal trays of a lot of Goa'uld ships, and the command unit trays of the same, they're all 'quartz' style, given that the ship was Cronos's flagship, and the scavenging nature of the Goa'uld, it's not out of the question he installed some upgrades he'd scavenged on that particular ship.

NecronLord wrote:
Actually, for all his pretend ignorance, the mere fact that he knows how to render ancient mathematics into readable modern form (if base eight) algebra suggests that he most certainly does know (perhaps unconciously) a fair bit of mathematics. If he didn't, he would have just written it out on the board in ancient mathematical notations, which would have been... mighty useless.

As Daniel Jackson said to Repli-Carter the knowledge of the Ancients is also understanding, not just pure knowledge, which would've gone a long way to help. Not to mention his entire brain was basically running on 'overclock' settings. Copying Ancient math into English isn't evidence of his originally having advanced math skills to that level. Give me a translation sheet and I could copy out a lot of advanced maths from Russian into English, doesn't mean I'd actually know what it meant.

Remember, his brain was obviously capable of doing some sort of conceptual connection, as the Ancient words he began using weren't random, but in the correct context, so the Ancient dictionary was obviously able to sync with the English dictionary in his head, even if he couldn't control it. He also specifically told Hammond that he didn't know what he was doing when they found him re-programming the base computer.

NecronLord wrote:
As for the computer, there's no real reason that should work; and to be honest, do we actually know that he did more than lock everyone out (something he does know the concept of, he is clearly trained in operating computer security, witness his proficiency in various autodestruct sequences) and then punch at the nice keyboard conviniently labelled in stargate letters? Carter says the screen is filled with machine code, but it clearly isn't; machine code does not work that way, unless perhaps he was reprogramming the stargate itself, which would presumably have very different instruction sets.
[/quote][/quote]
Well, he certainly did some sort of programming, given that the lock-out was obviously written to coincide with a heretofore unknown 8-chevron dialling sequence (which he would've had to program in) specifically when the base's power input was increased, and then shut itself down after the resultant wormhole collapsed.

We also have to remember that his could also access relevant parts of the Ancient repository relevant to the situation, like the DHD schematics and how to fix one.

So, given the Ancients worked with naquadah, and so probably knew it's energy properties, when building the power generator he probably thought: "I'll need something powerful to get this working, hey, Teal'c's staff is quite powerful, I wonder if that would do it?" at which point the relevant part of the Ancient database would've told him something on the lines of "If it's this big, then yes, otherwise no." All subconciously, since he proffesed complete ignorance on a concious level of what he was doing.

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: If Ancients (SG) tech is found in the SW galaxy.... PostPosted: 2009-02-07 10:27am
Offline
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
User avatar

Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Posts: 25359
Location: The Lost City
An Ancient wrote:
Yes, I think it's safe to consider that there are two different shielding technologies at work when the shield itself has a radically different visual appearance.
Radically different? Fuck off, it's the same thing set to 'orange.'
Quote:
And the fact that the 'ice' shields do have a definite 'raise' effect, whereas Goa'uld ship shields have never been seen to have either.
They did in Serpent's Lair, numbnuts.
Quote:
Not weapons grade naquada, but even the Prometheus hull was constructed of a trinium-naquada alloy, I'm thinking the Goa'uld use naquada as a dual power source/armour plate in the same way the US uses Uranium for power generation/bombs and depleted uranium for tank rounds and tank armour.
Flat dead wrong chuckles. There's a fucking transcript of Prometheus, you find me a quote about the trinium alloy containing naquadah, go on.

Especially given that it was a major plot point in the next episode that the hull and contents of Prometheus were considerably less appetising to replicators than Asgard ships. You're suggesting they're practically made out of the same thing.

Put up evidence, or shut up.
Quote:
Not really, see Prometheus, Earth has very limited access to naquada and they managed to build, at the last count, as least seven fairly large warships using naquada as part of the hull material. The Asguard also use naquada as part of the hull of thier newer ships.
Earth rolled in modern mechanical methods, supposedly. The jaffa hitting things with shovels and hoes are a considerably more primative way of going about things. But no, you'll just ignore that to keep on assuming the whole fucking ship is made of naquadah. Do you not even realise what a dishonest idiocy that is?
Quote:
I mentioned him in my first post you'll notice, and given this is Anubis, is him poking around with a chunk of Ancient computer tech really that surprising?
The computer core is full of irregular 'quartz' crystals, while some terminals elsewhere on the ship use flat ones. The same occured on Cronos' ship. Frankly, you're full of shit, both Ancients and Goa'uld used both styles of control crystals. The master control crystal and various others of every DHD (that is, incidentally, a much better shot showing the inside of a DHD) are crystal shaped, just like the crystals in goa'uld ships. While the Ancients seem to have mostly phased out the colourful, crystal shaped designs, they clearly used them at various points in their history.

So yes, I think it's a fair bet, given how similar they look, to say that the crystal-based computers used by the goa'uld are derived from ancient-technology; if not, they're certainly a suspisiously convergent design.
Quote:
Cronos' ship appears to be an outlier, we've seen the corridor cyrstal trays of a lot of Goa'uld ships,
Not really. We've seen the control cystals of the damn same ships in different shapes. The same Anubis ship you're trumpeting about like a retard had standard crystal trays in the corridors and in its computer room. You're full of shit Ani.

Offhand, the goa'uld capital ships that have had significant scenes in them where their control crystals were shown were; Cronos' ship (Double Jeopardy, Exodus, Enemies) and Anubis' (Revalations/Descent).
Quote:
and the command unit trays of the same, they're all 'quartz' style, given that the ship was Cronos's flagship, and the scavenging nature of the Goa'uld, it's not out of the question he installed some upgrades he'd scavenged on that particular ship.
Bollocks. There's no evidence that Anubis upgraded his control crystals. Stop grasping and flailing desperately and try to use your brain for a minute.

Did you know that the goa'uld and ancients use the same type of light fitting too? Props get recycled on the show all the time.

By your standards, the Eye of Ra and the Eye of Tiamat are different technologies because one was orangey-yellow ovoid shape and the other was a red hockey puck.
Quote:
As Daniel Jackson said to Repli-Carter the knowledge of the Ancients is also understanding, not just pure knowledge,
The knowledge of the ascended ancients. It's a fair bet the replicators already have the Ancient database; the Asgard downloaded it long ago, and the replicators had overrun entire asgard worlds. That scene has nothing to do with the ancient database, you duplicitous little crapsack.
Quote:
which would've gone a long way to help. Not to mention his entire brain was basically running on 'overclock' settings. Copying Ancient math into English isn't evidence of his originally having advanced math skills to that level. Give me a translation sheet and I could copy out a lot of advanced maths from Russian into English, doesn't mean I'd actually know what it meant.
Again, the point sails over your head and hits the ceiling. Russian Algebra is much the same as English. Hell, no translation is actually neccessary Do you think Russians are from another fucking planet? What the hell makes you think:

X
Y

Would mean X divided by Y to an ancient? In the same way, O'Neill comes up with all sorts of mathematical symbols there, and somewhere in his brain, unless the ancients mysteriously used the same mathematical notation as we do, the meanings of those symbols must be known. Why the hell would the ancient database contain symbols like cos and various other modern mathematical notations? While the ancients would logically have their own versions, O'Neill's memory would have to contain at least basic algebra in order to render it into algebra. Quite clearly at least part of what he was doing was drawing on his own concious or subconcious memories; there's no reason to think that programming (in machine code!) the SGC computer would necesserily be directly from ancient knowledge, rather than something he's picked up from his stay there.

The same is not true of goa'uld technology; there's no logical reason why O'Neill should be able to easily modify a Tel'tak's engines unless the technologies used in those engines are very similar to those used by the ancients.
Quote:
Well, he certainly did some sort of programming, given that the lock-out was obviously written to coincide with a heretofore unknown 8-chevron dialling sequence (which he would've had to program in) specifically when the base's power input was increased, and then shut itself down after the resultant wormhole collapsed.

Yes, thank you, I know what would require programming. However: Machine code does not work that way.

Human machine code is different for every processor. Machine code for my computer would be different to the machine code on yours. The scene simply doesn't work with the kind of literalism you're trying for here.

The only way the Ancient Database could provide knowledge of how to program in machine code was if it allowed users to develop some kind of "machine empathy" power that gave them a telepathic understanding of machines. Or if the Ancients programming it went forward in time, invisibly stalked their way into the SGC, and analysed the SGC's computers.
Quote:
We also have to remember that his could also access relevant parts of the Ancient repository relevant to the situation, like the DHD schematics and how to fix one.

So, given the Ancients worked with naquadah, and so probably knew it's energy properties, when building the power generator he probably thought: "I'll need something powerful to get this working, hey, Teal'c's staff is quite powerful, I wonder if that would do it?" at which point the relevant part of the Ancient database would've told him something on the lines of "If it's this big, then yes, otherwise no." All subconciously, since he proffesed complete ignorance on a concious level of what he was doing.

Oh yes. Your marvelous defence of your idea that goa'uld technology is as fundamentally different from that of the Ancients as something from another universe astounds me.



Superior Moderator - BotM - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: If Ancients (SG) tech is found in the SW galaxy.... PostPosted: 2009-02-07 01:26pm
Offline
Jedi Council Member
User avatar

Joined: 2008-02-15 10:36am
Posts: 2319
An Ancient wrote:
Darth Hoth wrote:
A textbook case of the Burden of Proof fallacy. Look especially at the second example.

You could quite easily switch that around, so far Ancient drones have been seen to have no problems with a variety of shields they have encountered, you assert that SW shield are superior and therefore immune. This a positive statement, the burden of proof is now on you. Prove that SW shields are superior, in what manner, and how they will defeat the drones.

Anyway, as PunkMaister said, we can't prove it either way, but as Chris said, the instictive reaction of 'In abscence of any credible evidence, Star Wars must win!' is really a bit annoying, and no better than a lot of Trekkies with their technobabble solutions to everything.


Darth Wong explains Occam's Razor to you.



"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."

-George "Evil" Lucas

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: If Ancients (SG) tech is found in the SW galaxy.... PostPosted: 2009-02-07 01:44pm
Offline
Jedi Knight
User avatar

Joined: 2005-09-20 11:56am
Posts: 649
Darth Hoth wrote:
An Ancient wrote:
Darth Hoth wrote:
A textbook case of the Burden of Proof fallacy. Look especially at the second example.

You could quite easily switch that around, so far Ancient drones have been seen to have no problems with a variety of shields they have encountered, you assert that SW shield are superior and therefore immune. This a positive statement, the burden of proof is now on you. Prove that SW shields are superior, in what manner, and how they will defeat the drones.

Anyway, as PunkMaister said, we can't prove it either way, but as Chris said, the instictive reaction of 'In abscence of any credible evidence, Star Wars must win!' is really a bit annoying, and no better than a lot of Trekkies with their technobabble solutions to everything.


Darth Wong explains Occam's Razor to you.


Now, now kids, it has already been established that at this point there is no way to know either way whether drones would or would not work on SW shields so honestly why keep on fighting over something that cannot be proven but only conjecture about? Seriously move on...



ImageImage

Visit my site:
------------------------------------------
http://scifiverse.tk/

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: If Ancients (SG) tech is found in the SW galaxy.... PostPosted: 2009-02-07 07:53pm
Offline
Emperor's Hand
User avatar

Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Posts: 13169
Location: Looking for another drawer
We're not fighting about it. Everybody EXCEPT An Ancient Moron agrees to that. This is about An Ancient Moron blithely assuming that the drones WILL be able to defeat Wars shields and when called on to put up or shut up, trying to weasel his way out of it by completely misrepresenting Burden of Proof.



'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kids with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: If Ancients (SG) tech is found in the SW galaxy.... PostPosted: 2009-02-07 08:57pm
Offline
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: 2006-03-13 09:04am
Posts: 1389
Location: Scotland
PunkMaister wrote:
Now, now kids, it has already been established that at this point there is no way to know either way whether drones would or would not work on SW shields so honestly why keep on fighting over something that cannot be proven but only conjecture about? Seriously move on...


From what I have understood of this entire tangent, the actual workings of the drones remain unknown. They may be piercing shields or they may not, they may be phasing through / past the shields or not, they may have the ability to phase through materials as well or not. The destructive potential of drones has been observed main times and that potential is not large enough to compete in the SW universe.
The power generation of SW is greater, their shields are greater and the weapons are greater hence an Ancient warship only has merit in it's hyperdrive and databanks. Unless there is something I have missed being mentioned about them, that is all they have and should have since it IS an Ancient Warship and not a research facility with experimental-tech/device-of-the-week onboard.

In relation to this:

Quote:
When it comes to the SGverse being hit by an ever expansionist galactic empire just how far can a nation as big as the galactic empire can really reach without spreading itself too thin in the process...


Since it is a looter that has found this Ancient ship with the potential ability to get back to the SG universe. The force that 'hits' SG dosent have to be the Galactic Empire. It can be whoever pays (the looter) ME the most amount of money for the information. Now, why sell it to just one person when you can sell it to EVERYONE willing to pay in the SW universe ?
In which case, everyone from the Empires to the Hutts or the various businesses could be the ones expanding into the SG universe.

For simple ease, assuming it is the Empire that expands then it all depends on the time period of the SG universe. Although expanding should be pretty easy in every time period unless the Empire actively went out of it's way to attack technolgical powers like the Ancients, Asgard or later Earth. Otherwise, playing the various powers off against one another and expanding should be more than possible. Especially since the majority of the SG verse is underpopulated or underdeveloped due to the Wraith or Goa'uld.

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: If Ancients (SG) tech is found in the SW galaxy.... PostPosted: 2009-02-07 09:21pm
Offline
Jedi Knight
User avatar

Joined: 2005-09-20 11:56am
Posts: 649
Batman wrote:
We're not fighting about it. Everybody EXCEPT An Ancient Moron agrees to that. This is about An Ancient Moron blithely assuming that the drones WILL be able to defeat Wars shields and when called on to put up or shut up, trying to weasel his way out of it by completely misrepresenting Burden of Proof.

Yes he has been especially annoying but Darth Hoth points to Occam's razor as if there's a simple solution to this and there is none to be found at this point so he seems very much set on the extreme opposite side of what An Ancient proposes but equally without proof on the matter. At this point both are like 2 kids arguing over whom should ride shotgun or something like that. But in Hoth's defense he has only posted about twice on the subject and has not kept on this inane merry go round as An Ancient has, frankly I'm fed up of him and anyone that comes in this thread and spouts crap without proof. So to Ancient and everyone else like him that might read this, bring proof to your claim or get the hell out of this thread.



ImageImage

Visit my site:
------------------------------------------
http://scifiverse.tk/

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: If Ancients (SG) tech is found in the SW galaxy.... PostPosted: 2009-02-07 09:25pm
Offline
Spirit of Vengeance
User avatar

Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Posts: 27779
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars
Punk, I am giving this one warning, not because you deserve it but because I am feeling friendlier then usual.

Do not backseat moderate. Necronlord can handle it and I doubt he cares for your input on the matter.



MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: If Ancients (SG) tech is found in the SW galaxy.... PostPosted: 2009-02-07 09:30pm
Offline
Jedi Knight
User avatar

Joined: 2005-09-20 11:56am
Posts: 649
Ghost Rider wrote:
Punk, I am giving this one warning, not because you deserve it but because I am feeling friendlier then usual.

Do not backseat moderate. Necronlord can handle it and I doubt he cares for your input on the matter.


Sorry about that, lost my temper there for a second or 2... :oops:



ImageImage

Visit my site:
------------------------------------------
http://scifiverse.tk/

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: If Ancients (SG) tech is found in the SW galaxy.... PostPosted: 2009-02-08 08:27am
Offline
Jedi Knight

Joined: 2008-11-14 01:47pm
Posts: 829
Location: Latvia
Speaking of SG power sources there is one which SW civilization would want - it`s Project Arcturus experimental ZPE generator. If SW scientists could make it work safely they would get a power source that has very high output (although I have no idea how it would compare to SW reactors) and never runs out. Or it could find a military application because of really big boom it can cause if overloaded. However it`s unlikely a regular Aurora warship`s databanks would contain any useful information regarding Project Arcturus.

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: If Ancients (SG) tech is found in the SW galaxy.... PostPosted: 2009-02-08 09:27am
Offline
Jedi Council Member
User avatar

Joined: 2008-02-15 10:36am
Posts: 2319
PunkMaister wrote:
Now, now kids, it has already been established that at this point there is no way to know either way whether drones would or would not work on SW shields so honestly why keep on fighting over something that cannot be proven but only conjecture about? Seriously move on...


PunkMaister wrote:
Batman wrote:
We're not fighting about it. Everybody EXCEPT An Ancient Moron agrees to that. This is about An Ancient Moron blithely assuming that the drones WILL be able to defeat Wars shields and when called on to put up or shut up, trying to weasel his way out of it by completely misrepresenting Burden of Proof.


Yes he has been especially annoying but Darth Hoth points to Occam's razor as if there's a simple solution to this and there is none to be found at this point so he seems very much set on the extreme opposite side of what An Ancient proposes but equally without proof on the matter. At this point both are like 2 kids arguing over whom should ride shotgun or something like that. But in Hoth's defense he has only posted about twice on the subject and has not kept on this inane merry go round as An Ancient has, frankly I'm fed up of him and anyone that comes in this thread and spouts crap without proof. So to Ancient and everyone else like him that might read this, bring proof to your claim or get the hell out of this thread.


:wtf:

There is a simple solution, namely that he stops making the claim. As repeatedly noted, we cannot be certain whether the drones' unknown technobabble mechanism would work or not, so it is rather pointless to go to such lengths arguing about it, but Occam's Razor demands that the default condition be that till such time as evidence for a theorised phenomenon is provided, we assume that it does not exist.



"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."

-George "Evil" Lucas

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: If Ancients (SG) tech is found in the SW galaxy.... PostPosted: 2009-02-08 10:48am
Offline
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
User avatar

Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Posts: 25359
Location: The Lost City
Sky Captain wrote:
Speaking of SG power sources there is one which SW civilization would want - it`s Project Arcturus experimental ZPE generator. If SW scientists could make it work safely they would get a power source that has very high output (although I have no idea how it would compare to SW reactors) and never runs out. Or it could find a military application because of really big boom it can cause if overloaded. However it`s unlikely a regular Aurora warship`s databanks would contain any useful information regarding Project Arcturus.


As you correctly identify, the real value to Star Wars civilizations in both ZPMs and that monstrosity, is the sheer violence of their explosions.



Superior Moderator - BotM - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: If Ancients (SG) tech is found in the SW galaxy.... PostPosted: 2009-02-08 11:58am
Offline
Jedi Knight
User avatar

Joined: 2005-09-20 11:56am
Posts: 649
Darth Hoth wrote:
:wtf:

There is a simple solution, namely that he stops making the claim. As repeatedly noted, we cannot be certain whether the drones' unknown technobabble mechanism would work or not, so it is rather pointless to go to such lengths arguing about it, but Occam's Razor demands that the default condition be that till such time as evidence for a theorised phenomenon is provided, we assume that it does not exist.


OK correct me If I'm wrong here but the only solution that we have about this is that nobody has the foggiest idea as to whether this technology would work or not against SW shields and unlike Trek in which there is at least some corroborating evidence to point out that their weaponry would be mostly ineffectual that is not the case here. We cannot assume automatically that it does not work anymore than we could say it would. If anything Occam's razor would point to just that fact, Nobody has a freaking clue, period...

And true he needs to stop making the claim that it would unquestionably work since he does not have anyway to prove his argument or bring evidence out of his ass which he can't so is all conjecture. I even PMed him about it but to no avail. I suggested to him that he should drop it unless he can prove it which is what everybody has been telling him anyway but I thought a direct approach might work, it obviously didn't so is on the mods hands now...



ImageImage

Visit my site:
------------------------------------------
http://scifiverse.tk/

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: If Ancients (SG) tech is found in the SW galaxy.... PostPosted: 2009-02-08 04:30pm
Offline
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: 2006-03-13 09:04am
Posts: 1389
Location: Scotland
How the drones work is unknown. There is no definitive proof on what method they are using to get through shields, let alone if they are even using a fancy trick to get through them in the first place.

The main methods being suggested is phasing, frequency based piercing or straight forward brute force.

Frequency based piercing - Will have no effect on SW shields, they do not have frequencies and even if they do. SW shields are different from SG shields thus the frequencies they use may simply not be programmed into the Drones capabilities or even be part of them.

Brute force - It has already been stated many times that SW shields are significantly more powerful than SG thus it is going to take considerable amounts of drones to rival standard SW weaponary which makes them useless given they have ammo problems.

Phasing - We have seen drones stopped by Ancient shielding as well as Wraith armor which indicates a limit to the extent of any phasing ability. Wether or not SW has shields that exhibit the same kind of property that Ancient shields is unknown but the armor of SW should be equal to Wraith armor.

Overall, phasing is the only method that makes the drones viable as a weapon but even then. Stealing that method and putting it into regular SW munitions would be much more effective.

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: If Ancients (SG) tech is found in the SW galaxy.... PostPosted: 2009-02-08 05:06pm
Offline
Jedi Knight
User avatar

Joined: 2005-09-20 11:56am
Posts: 649
PREDATOR490 wrote:
How the drones work is unknown. There is no definitive proof on what method they are using to get through shields, let alone if they are even using a fancy trick to get through them in the first place.

The main methods being suggested is phasing, frequency based piercing or straight forward brute force.

Frequency based piercing - Will have no effect on SW shields, they do not have frequencies and even if they do. SW shields are different from SG shields thus the frequencies they use may simply not be programmed into the Drones capabilities or even be part of them.

Brute force - It has already been stated many times that SW shields are significantly more powerful than SG thus it is going to take considerable amounts of drones to rival standard SW weaponary which makes them useless given they have ammo problems.

Phasing - We have seen drones stopped by Ancient shielding as well as Wraith armor which indicates a limit to the extent of any phasing ability. Wether or not SW has shields that exhibit the same kind of property that Ancient shields is unknown but the armor of SW should be equal to Wraith armor.

Overall, phasing is the only method that makes the drones viable as a weapon but even then. Stealing that method and putting it into regular SW munitions would be much more effective.



There is only one instance in the whole Stargate franchise where the so called shield frequencies was referred too and has never been referred or used against in any manner afterward so this means that in most likelihood it has nothing to do with that. However phasing has been a recurrent theme in the franchise first with the Tollan and then when Carter developed a similar phasing tech to protect against the Ori. When it comes to phasing it has to be noted that people and objects that are phased cannot interact with unphased objects but can with objects that are phased so maybe what Anubis shields did was that it cycled thru phased and unphased stages to block any phased weapon. My theory anyway Still there is no way to put this theory to the test when it comes to SW shields unless in a Clone Wars episode they happen to deal with similar tech, only then will we have a clear picture of how effective/ineffective phasing is against Wars shields.



ImageImage

Visit my site:
------------------------------------------
http://scifiverse.tk/

Top
 Profile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 151 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group