[ali-sama] Marvel Juggernaut vs Sidious and Dooku

m.castaldo · Post by **m.castaldo** » 2005-11-01 10:19am

Darth Wong wrote:More realistically, as has been said before, they don't need to vape or even injure him at all. All they have to do is levitate him off the ground, and then move him to a location where they dispose of him in a more permanent fashion. If necessary, they could simply push him into space, where he would float helplessly until they get around to flying up with a shuttle and tractoring him off to the Sun.

The problem I see with that is that IIRC, Juggie can resist even TK, hence why I was asking to see if anyone remembers whether or not Jean Grey's TK ever actually affected him in ways like that, such as knocking him around and the like.

ryan8723 · Post by **ryan8723** » 2005-11-01 10:40am

Of course you can't discount the low end aspect of his power, but that also means you can't disregard his upper end either.

Juggernaut is by Marvel's definition an unstoppable force, which means in the comics that once he starts moving in a certain direction he cannot be stopped (though he has been stopped before, it was with extreme effort). I have also taken that to mean that he is also extremely resistant to TK (note, I did not say telepathy which is different), since it would be very difficult to move him from where he wants to be.

I haven't read many Marvel comics, but I do know that he is on the upper end in terms of overall power. There aren't many non-cosmics that can defeat him.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-11-01 10:56am

Gee, High ends count too!!!!

And would anyone care to actually MEASURE it? For fuck's sake people, we have one poster present something that is akin to someone going "And here we see a Sith Lord destroy a sun!"

And ali's calculations fail on the particular point that Bertie brought up but ali never answered. What are they basing these levels of power upon...other then the fact they are RPG stats, which aren't canon.

So we are back to the start where many are waiting for someone to show Juggs having the ability to withstand a certain level of power. It's not hard people...it barely requires junior high math...so dust off a couple books and figure it out before this becomes like 90% of the other comic book fights where in people go into the wonderful hyperbole of their catch phrases.

ali-sama · Post by **ali-sama** » 2005-11-01 01:19pm

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Does that magical forcefield keep him from aging though?

I know he has no need for air, food, water or rest whatsoever but i dont know if he'll eventually grow old and die like the rest of us or not.

I would imagine, as he's supposed to have limitless internal stores of energy and strength, he would not but i'm not sure.

no. the force field from what i have read is rarly used anymore. they brought his endurance, int he comic, to do the same thing. His ristance to aging is god like. so he will not die of old age.

ali-sama · Post by **ali-sama** » 2005-11-01 01:21pm

Stark wrote:This is getting asinine. If you're going with the 'Juggernaut is unstoppable by definition', then woop-de-do, you've got a wankfest. If you're going to say 'OMGZOR JUGGY will OutLive everyone for t3h win!!!!11', why can't we return by describing what eternal imprisonment is like?

To be honest, Juggernaut is a tragic character. Wank him out all you like - that just means he's going to keep living forever, regardless of how much intergalactic space he floats through courtesy of the Empire.

I repeat: if you define Juggernaut as a walking no-limits fallacy, there is no analysis.

no. see above. What are the chances of him being rescued Who eventuially is toppled in 20 or so years.

Meest · Post by **Meest** » 2005-11-01 01:24pm

Collapsed an entire skyscraper(possibly a World Trade Center tower) with a ram of his shoulder. --Spider-Man #16

Here's an example of high end vs low end, in that same comic he gets stabbed in the eyes and is blinded for a few seconds before his regen could kick in. The issue concludes in X-Force #4, I don't have it but I found a nice synopsis.

Spider-Man and most of the team continue to fight Juggernaut ineffectively
until Domino shows up, and instructs Warpath to throw Shatterstar at him to slash
him. Shatterstar's magic swords were able to detach Juggernaut's helmet, and Siryn
flies off with it. Cable is just about to shoot him, when Deadpool ports away
with him.

Yes it was because they are "magic" blades or some crap, but these are the same blades that Wolverine and others can parry. Also Wolverine does the same feat without magic.

Here's the Hulk knocking out Juggernaut from a psychic backlash after having his helmet removed. Seems reasonable that the Sith can remove his helmet and start a mental pounding, if he gets distracted or KO'd then bye bye Juggy's head. There seems to be a big thing with only magic and sorcery can hurt him, maybe Sidious would get an interest in the gem that powers him and does some "sorcery" to remove it.

ali-sama · Post by **ali-sama** » 2005-11-01 01:29pm

Ghost Rider wrote:The problem with that list, is it doesn't show the low end feats that have defeated him that didn't require said character able to obliterate all life on the planet.

Beings of far lesser power have lifted him and helmet away. He does not show by any stretch some 2 .0 ^10*500 power that only things on that order can phase him.

That is my problem with what some of the defenders have been showing just to go "Uh...yeah see, Juggs Wins because it takes such and such power to phase him....if we ignore all the other times that some lesser being takes him helmet off!!!"

And the cries of "They wouldn't know!!!" falls onto the same thought that basic killing thoughts are, if you can't reach a soft spot, you aim for the head.

No. their not. The people who did that had forknoledge of his weakness. He also has his skullcap. Btw. I just said that is what it would take to beat him. I never really gave my full opinion on the matter.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-11-01 01:45pm

Ali...so far you have

Made claims of

ok then. As you wish.
So everyone knows this part of the talk will be a wankfest. I will use the high end values for juggernaught. i am doing it just to show how wankfest jug can get.
As far as the removeing of the helmet. it only happend in the cartoon. we are talking comic book jug.

Juggernaut is called the unstoppable force. why? He can be considered as a class 1000 material/force as far as using a force field/cage to stop him or to

basically trap him.

what can cause a class 1000 force?

the shockwave of a 670 MegaTons (671,080,000 T)(2,80779872e+12) is class 1000, but shock wave alone is not enough. since the rest of the stats are much

weaker.

an explosion, blast of 20 TeraTons (21,990,000,000,000 T) (2,80779872e+12 joules ) can do class 3000 shock wave and class 1000 fireball(no effect on 3000

shield) with radiation being weak,
anything that can hol that explosion in place can stop the jugernaut eaisly.

now. juggernaught has a shield around him. which is class 3000.
you woudl need a fire blast of at least 3000 with radiantion and shock wave high enough to hurt/kill him.

we get
5 ExaTons (5,764,500,000,000,000,000 T) (2.4118668e+28 joules)
CL 5000 (Shockwave)(definalty penetrate shield)
CL 3000 (Fireball)(hurt shield)
CL 1000 (Radiation)(no effect)

that woudl eaisly vape him, in my opinion. Galactus, who's endurance is at the same level as jugernaught. barely did survive it. But galactus, being

galactus, is much more powerfull in other ways which would help him survive that.

these are for explosions and not particle beams.
juggernauth can take 20 terraton explosions with ease. now you do the math.

Juggernaut being a class 3000 being. Class 3000 means to you:

class 3000 blast is 20 terratons

or

juggernaught has only been physiclaly hurt by 1 person.
The strenth of his force field is consistant in the comics.
It woudl take a 5.8 expoton explosion(which was created from what i am told from the collission of 2 planets and lots and lots of planet busting nukes) in the sixth issue of the thanos comics. The target was galactus, who's endurance is also class 3000. he survived. he was at dead center of impact.

and made the inference of

In marvel, a laser, in order to do what the death star did, at max would be class 3000. death star is not a laser, it;s a exotic hypermatter beam. therefore the level is much lower. shift z or class 1000 at best. shift z or class 1000 cannot scratch a class 3000 shield.

No, wait:

A class 3000 laser is equal to the death star. which does 1e38 j of dammage.
the exoton explosion is not in the same leage. as far as joules.
so. a class 3000 laser would kill juggernaught.
but not a class 3000 thermo nuclear device.
for anything to do dammage to juggernaught, it has to be in the exoton range. No matter what the weapon is. tl etc won;t do it. superlaser. yes.

And why would I dump into the Hall of Shame?

i was not debating it. just doing a wankfest. Like I mentioned.

So I will ask again, because I'm just feeling nice.

Prove these statements. You have done nothing of the sort, except infer that the RPG stats must be in sync with Marvel universe(even though they have shown otherwise).

I do truly want to see if you can, or are you going to the exact same thing for a third time in a row.

ali-sama · Post by **ali-sama** » 2005-11-01 01:58pm

Bertie Wooster wrote:
ali-sama wrote: what can cause a class 1000 force?

the shockwave of a 670 MegaTons (671,080,000 T)(2,80779872e+12) is class 1000, but shock wave alone is not enough. since the rest of the stats are much weaker.

an explosion, blast of 20 TeraTons (21,990,000,000,000 T) (2,80779872e+12 joules ) can do class 3000 shock wave and class 1000 fireball(no effect on 3000 shield) with radiation being weak,
anything that can hol that explosion in place can stop the jugernaut eaisly.

now. juggernaught has a shield around him. which is class 3000.
you woudl need a fire blast of at least 3000 with radiantion and shock wave high enough to hurt/kill him.

we get
5 ExaTons (5,764,500,000,000,000,000 T) (2.4118668e+28 joules)
CL 5000 (Shockwave)(definalty penetrate shield)
CL 3000 (Fireball)(hurt shield)
CL 1000 (Radiation)(no effect)

Al-sama, not to debate your point, but I'm curious where you got those numbers of converting Classic Marvel rpg stats into energy. I'd be very interested in reading more from that source.

I am acquiring the issue with said blast. Once I do. I will post a scan. this shoudl be by tonight. I am currently locating it.

ali-sama · Post by **ali-sama** » 2005-11-01 02:11pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Ali...so far you have

Made claims of

*snip*

and made the inference of

In marvel, a laser, in order to do what the death star did, at max would be class 3000. death star is not a laser, it;s a exotic hypermatter beam. therefore the level is much lower. shift z or class 1000 at best. shift z or class 1000 cannot scratch a class 3000 shield.
No, wait:

A class 3000 laser is equal to the death star. which does 1e38 j of dammage.
the exoton explosion is not in the same leage. as far as joules.
so. a class 3000 laser would kill juggernaught.
but not a class 3000 thermo nuclear device.
for anything to do dammage to juggernaught, it has to be in the exoton range. No matter what the weapon is. tl etc won;t do it. superlaser. yes.
And why would I dump into the Hall of Shame?

ask your self that?

i was not debating it. just doing a wankfest. Like I mentioned.

So I will ask again, because I'm just feeling nice.

Prove these statements. You have done nothing of the sort, except infer that the RPG stats must be in sync with Marvel universe(even though they have shown otherwise).

I do truly want to see if you can, or are you going to the exact same thing for a third time in a row.[/quote]

the last figure is from an issue of thanos. thanos #6. I am acquiring this.
the laser figure is from marvel's wepons locker and varios other books.
In marvel the natrue of the weapon and the dammage it does defines it; class. A class 1000 weapon means the tech behind the weapon is class 1000, not nessesarly the firepower or dammage.
I class 1000 cosmic blast can waste solar systems.
As far as the third time in a row. I hate to say this. But peopel who have talked tome about the incident have indicated what they thought of your tactics and your logic and only 1 person stood up for you.
I dont; care if I win or if I loose. I like writing the story in my head. I am from now on going to do these things not on what i think people expect of me nor make any assumptions on my part. If you want. I can detail the battle, going through variose senarios etc of what choices they are presented with etc.
Yes some marvel stats are outdated as the characters have changed over time. I do not disagree with you. if you will allow me time. I will show you comic evidence.

Bertie Wooster · Post by **Bertie Wooster** » 2005-11-01 02:32pm

Ali-Sama, your point (as I understand it) is three parts:

A) A lower limit for Galactus' endurance can be extrapolated using calculations on the incident of him being crushed between two planets with a sizeable nuclear arsenal also going off at the point of impact. (For which you're obtaining scans)
B) The classic marvel rpg has Juggernaut's forcefield valued at the same level as Galactus' endurance.
http://www.classicmarvel.com/cast/juggernaut1.htm
http://www.classicmarvel.com/cast/galactus.htm
C) We can conclude the calculations of Galactu's lower limit of endurance can be applied to Juggernaut

Unfortunately, everybody else refutes that value of Juggernaut's forcefield's endurance by evidence that shows Juggernaut getting overcome by much lesser attacks. Spiderman 16, where Shatterstar stabs him in the eye, one example.

RPG stats are fun to use and throw around in a friendly discussion, but like WestEnd Games' ship stats in the starwars RPG, are sometimes internally inconsistent with observable evidence.

ali-sama · Post by **ali-sama** » 2005-11-01 04:36pm

unfortuanly deadlines are going to drive me mad. so i cant do much till next monday. but for yoru viewing pleasure.
I believe the explosive power of this blast was underrated.
Also galactus is no where near full power.

ali-sama · Post by **ali-sama** » 2005-11-01 04:41pm

oops. forgot page 7.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-11-01 05:21pm

What does that have to do with *ANYTHING*? Galactus getting pwnzored by nukes is lovely and all, but it's IRRELEVANT since the fucking RPG is a USELESS SOURCE. That list of events is USELESS without a similar list of things that DO hurt 'ole Juggy. When you totally ignore this point, I hope your WoI is exposed for all to see. If you're going to ignore all points, just shut the fuck up.

ali-sama · Post by **ali-sama** » 2005-11-01 05:46pm

Stark wrote:What does that have to do with *ANYTHING*? Galactus getting pwnzored by nukes is lovely and all, but it's IRRELEVANT since the fucking RPG is a USELESS SOURCE. That list of events is USELESS without a similar list of things that DO hurt 'ole Juggy. When you totally ignore this point, I hope your WoI is exposed for all to see. If you're going to ignore all points, just shut the fuck up.

rpg, unless contradicted with cannon, is fine. if you want to dismiss his endurance you have to proove it.

ali-sama · Post by **ali-sama** » 2005-11-01 05:53pm

i'll see you all on th e8th. i relaly have to stop posting as it relaly distracts me.
here is agood site.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Neptune/7060/main.html

Grasscutter · Post by **Grasscutter** » 2005-11-01 06:24pm

ali-sama wrote:
Stark wrote:What does that have to do with *ANYTHING*? Galactus getting pwnzored by nukes is lovely and all, but it's IRRELEVANT since the fucking RPG is a USELESS SOURCE. That list of events is USELESS without a similar list of things that DO hurt 'ole Juggy. When you totally ignore this point, I hope your WoI is exposed for all to see. If you're going to ignore all points, just shut the fuck up.
rpg, unless contradicted with cannon, is fine. if you want to dismiss his endurance you have to proove it.

I think the burden of proof here is on you, Ali. The RPG might say that the Juggernaut is as tough as full-power Galactus, but have we ever seen anything in the comics that proves this?

AFAIK, the answer to that is no. We have, however, seen the Juggernaut staggered by blows from the Hulk and Thor and cut by Shatterstar's swords. When have we ever seen the same happen to Galactus when he was at full power?

If you can show an example from the comics of Juggernaut (and ONLY Juggernaut, not other characters that the RPG says are the same level as him) shrugging off teraton-level blasts, I'll retract my statement. But so far you haven't, and that's what's annoying people here.

ali-sama · Post by **ali-sama** » 2005-11-01 10:04pm

Grasscutter wrote: I think the burden of proof here is on you, Ali. The RPG might say that the Juggernaut is as tough as full-power Galactus, but have we ever seen anything in the comics that proves this?

AFAIK, the answer to that is no. We have, however, seen the Juggernaut staggered by blows from the Hulk

never was dammaged or hurt. Being pushed back due to a massivly strong punch, which can level mountains, no matter how durable you are. will make you stagger.

and Thor

Thor used god magic to nullify jug's powers, and that is why he got a good punch in. THough jug did deck him with 1 punch.

and cut by Shatterstar's swords.

Though, your failing to see the circumstances.

Shatterstar and the rest of X-Force, along with Spiderman, had encountered Juggernaut in X-Force #4, where Juggernaut and Black Tom Cassidy had captured one of the twin towers of the World Trade Center and held the people there hostage. In a team-up, Shatterstar was able to cut Juggernaut's helmet loose because his sword was forged in a dimension of magic and science. Just as he and the rest of the team were about to advance on him, Juggernaut was teleported away.

this was at the time both cain an tom shared the power of the juggernaught.
His strength and power where less then 1/2 of what it was when he alone controlled the power(according to cain).

[url]http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Neptune ... html#myths[url/

MISCONCEPTION:"The Juggernaut's armor and helmet are made from the same material."

Though there are discrepancies The Juggernaut's armor is not made of metal,but of an unknown indestructible mystical fabric. His helmet is made of an unknown mystical metal that while psi-proof,is not indestructible by any means and has in fact been torn apart or destroyed several times.

When have we ever seen the same happen to Galactus when he was at full power?

If you can show an example from the comics of Juggernaut (and ONLY Juggernaut, not other characters that the RPG says are the same level as him) shrugging off teraton-level blasts, I'll retract my statement. But so far you haven't, and that's what's annoying people here.[/quote]

Enigma · Post by **Enigma** » 2005-11-01 10:10pm

That website that ali linked to that talked about Juggy shows that Juggernaut is able to walk despite being lifted into the air from TK. He'll just walk on air. So Dooku and Sidious would have to try something else.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-11-01 10:19pm

Why? The counter is that you can apply braking TK to stop him moving. You know what the fanwhores will respond with?

'He's *unstoppable* by definition, and can move forward against *any* backwards force.'

Theres something wrong with that statement. Can anyone guess what it is?

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-11-01 10:19pm

Ghetto Edit: And RPGs are canon since when? Says who? And where's that list of things that defeat Juggy? THERE ISN'T ONE? No way!

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-11-01 10:22pm

Alright. My patience is gone. Justify your claims or face a one-way trip down. That was the last chance, Ali-sama.

Enigma · Post by **Enigma** » 2005-11-01 10:29pm

Stark wrote:Ghetto Edit: And RPGs are canon since when? Says who? And where's that list of things that defeat Juggy? THERE ISN'T ONE? No way!

There is and it is Superman.

Knocked Juggy to the floor with one punch.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-11-01 10:31pm

Enigma wrote:
Stark wrote:Ghetto Edit: And RPGs are canon since when? Says who? And where's that list of things that defeat Juggy? THERE ISN'T ONE? No way!
There is and it is Superman. Knocked Juggy to the floor with one punch.

See, that's what I want to know. I'm not a comic person, and I don't know shit about comic characters. I DO know that saying something is 'unstoppable' is fundamentally unscientific. In this case, I think what HAS defeated him is more useful than what HASN'T, since all an enemy has to do is replicate or exceed something that works.

And how'd Superman fight Juggernaut? Aren't they owned by different people?

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2005-11-01 10:39pm

ali-sama wrote:
ggs wrote:
Lukedanieljames wrote: well he isn't fast enough to actually hit them physically with a big boot or fist, he can easily toss some very heavy chunks of building at them,
far heavier than those senate pods or cylindrical steel object that dooku tried to drop on obi-wan.
If the Juggernaut is lifted a few inches off the ground and away from any objects, how the hell is he going to be chucking anything?
what will they do with him afterwards. they can't hold him up indefinatly.

Actually they can for as long as it matters.

The Empire has tractor beams, just lift him with one of those and dump him down the event horizen of a blackhole. Then he will no longer a part of the universe in any meaningful way