[ali-sama] Marvel Juggernaut vs Sidious and Dooku

ali-sama · Post by **ali-sama** » 2005-10-31 01:30pm

ggs wrote:
Lukedanieljames wrote: well he isn't fast enough to actually hit them physically with a big boot or fist, he can easily toss some very heavy chunks of building at them,
far heavier than those senate pods or cylindrical steel object that dooku tried to drop on obi-wan.
If the Juggernaut is lifted a few inches off the ground and away from any objects, how the hell is he going to be chucking anything?

what will they do with him afterwards. they can't hold him up indefinatly.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-10-31 01:41pm

ali-sama wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:As Stark says, "going after the head" and "removing the helmet that protects the head" are hardly unintuitive ideas. I'd say they're natural responses to an enemy that you can't seem to damage. Also, the Juggernaut's ability to survive weapons as hot as the surface of the Sun is not that impressive; a modern industrial plasma torch can produce temperatures which are more than twice as high as the Sun's surface temperature.

Worst-case scenario: if they decide that they can't hurt or kill him, they can always just levitate him until they can order a shuttle to put a tractor beam on him. Then they just haul him off to the nearest star and drop him inside. Enjoy eternity, Marko.
does the debate alow for outside help in order to get rid of a threat?
is this not unlike a dumb ass trekkie saying, janeway will sleep with Q and get him to make the empire go away. Or picard admitting his wrong so Q does the same? basically avoiding the fight.

Don't be an idiot; the Emperor without his Empire is not an Emperor. That's totally different than attaching Q to Picard or Janeway as if he's some sort of servant or lapdog.

ali-sama · Post by **ali-sama** » 2005-10-31 01:50pm

Darth Wong wrote:
ali-sama wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:As Stark says, "going after the head" and "removing the helmet that protects the head" are hardly unintuitive ideas. I'd say they're natural responses to an enemy that you can't seem to damage. Also, the Juggernaut's ability to survive weapons as hot as the surface of the Sun is not that impressive; a modern industrial plasma torch can produce temperatures which are more than twice as high as the Sun's surface temperature.

Worst-case scenario: if they decide that they can't hurt or kill him, they can always just levitate him until they can order a shuttle to put a tractor beam on him. Then they just haul him off to the nearest star and drop him inside. Enjoy eternity, Marko.
does the debate alow for outside help in order to get rid of a threat?
is this not unlike a dumb ass trekkie saying, janeway will sleep with Q and get him to make the empire go away. Or picard admitting his wrong so Q does the same? basically avoiding the fight.
Don't be an idiot; the Emperor without his Empire is not an Emperor. That's totally different than attaching Q to Picard or Janeway as if he's some sort of servant or lapdog.

opener is vs sidious and dooku. No empire yet. He did not mention a timeline. so it could just be senator palpaltine up to chancelor palpaltine.

meaning no empire. but the old republic.
but it is cool if you wish to use them. I appologize. Iether case he can get republic support. One would have clone troopers, the other would not.

question. How does an energy filed effect tractor beams in star wars?
can they lock on a shielded object who's power is higher then the beams power?

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2005-10-31 02:03pm

You don't think Palpatine has a red phone, or the SW analogue to one, hidden somewhere about his desk?

Hell, if anything he's probably got one of them cliched-- but true-- under-desk buttons that if he hits it, he's got security in there in about two seconds. Probably even when he was a Senator, he had some such arrangement; he certainly had the money to afford it, and I'm sure his apartment building's owners would have desired to keep such an important... well-paying... client secure.

Hmm... I wonder if his security systems would've incorporated small forcefields like what captured Obi-Wan, Anakin and himself on the Invisible Hand? It'd certainly be interesting to see how those would affect Juggs...

Lukedanieljames · Post by **Lukedanieljames** » 2005-10-31 02:05pm

We know that the Vong are invisible to the force, and we know that certain artifacts make the force around them nullified,

so there are certainly limitations to the force, this also could be true with juggernauts forcefield. The sith might not beable to levitate him.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-10-31 02:08pm

ali-sama wrote:opener is vs sidious and dooku. No empire yet. He did not mention a timeline. so it could just be senator palpaltine up to chancelor palpaltine.

And he doesn't even have a shuttle? Hey, why not take his lightsabre away from him too?

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-10-31 02:12pm

Lukedanieljames wrote:We know that the Vong are invisible to the force, and we know that certain artifacts make the force around them nullified,

so there are certainly limitations to the force, this also could be true with juggernauts forcefield. The sith might not beable to levitate him.

Thats not really fair. You cant take away one side's powers and leave the other, anymore than you can say "Well lightsabers cut through anything so Juggy's forcefield will be sinatntly penetrated" without showing how. You'd have to show his forcefield somehow stops TK, which it doesnt as far as i know.

ali-sama · Post by **ali-sama** » 2005-10-31 02:26pm

Darth Wong wrote:
ali-sama wrote:opener is vs sidious and dooku. No empire yet. He did not mention a timeline. so it could just be senator palpaltine up to chancelor palpaltine.
And he doesn't even have a shuttle? Hey, why not take his lightsabre away from him too?

sir.

opener is vs sidious and dooku. No empire yet. He did not mention a timeline. so it could just be senator palpaltine up to chancelor palpaltine.

meaning no empire. but the old republic.
but it is cool if you wish to use them. I appologize. Iether case he can get republic support. One would have clone troopers, the other would not.

I appologized and agreed with your stance.
could you answer my question . which was.

question. How does an energy filed effect tractor beams in star wars?
can they lock on a shielded object who's power is higher then the beams power?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-10-31 02:31pm

ali-sama wrote:question. How does an energy filed effect tractor beams in star wars? can they lock on a shielded object who's power is higher then the beams power?

What would shield power have to do with anything? Since we know that tractor beams in Star Wars are gravitic, they will pull anything that has mass. The shields are totally irrelevant; the only way to counteract a tractor beam is some kind of propulsion system pushing against it.

Lukedanieljames · Post by **Lukedanieljames** » 2005-10-31 02:31pm

18-Till-I-Die wrote:
Thats not really fair. You cant take away one side's powers and leave the other, anymore than you can say "Well lightsabers cut through anything so Juggy's forcefield will be sinatntly penetrated" without showing how. You'd have to show his forcefield somehow stops TK, which it doesnt as far as i know.

I'm not taking away their powers, i'm merely stating that the force does not work in all circumstances and that certain objects/energy fields cancel the force out. I've read the juggernauts profile from top to bottom, doesn't say anything about stopping Tk so i'll take that back, although I did read this.

from the marvel index on their homepage.

The Juggernaut wears a helmet fashioned from an unknown mystical metal found in the dimension of Cyttorak. Wearing this helmet, the Juggernaut is able to resist all forms of psionic attack on his mind successfully. Recently, the Juggernaut constructed a skullcap from scraps of the metal he used to construct the helmet. He wears the skullcap under, his helmet. Hence, if his helmet is somehow removed in battle, the skullcap will provide him continued protection from psionic attacks on his mind.

The question is, can sith tk knock it off, i wonder what forces the helmet can take in the comics, their are clear contradictions between the comics and the tv series xmen, so i'll look at the comics, since they are a higher cannon. I know that the hulk had a hard time taking it off, anyone know of any other instances?

ali-sama · Post by **ali-sama** » 2005-10-31 02:38pm

Darth Wong wrote:
ali-sama wrote:question. How does an energy filed effect tractor beams in star wars? can they lock on a shielded object who's power is higher then the beams power?
What would shield power have to do with anything? Since we know that tractor beams in Star Wars are gravitic, they will pull anything that has mass. The shields are totally irrelevant; the only way to counteract a tractor beam is some kind of propulsion system pushing against it.

ok cool. thank you for answering the question. I did not know if they where influenced by force fields or not. Hence I asked.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2005-10-31 02:42pm

Why are the Juggernaught people bitchin? Juggernaught's weakness has always been his lack of ranged attacks (inherent, not picking up a boulder and piffing it) and his mind.

Isn't it blatantly obvious that these two things would put him at a severe disadvantage against two Sith Lords who have both?

Honestly, if you wanted this debate to go differently you should have matched him against the Hulk or something.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2005-10-31 02:43pm

If you want to wank-out Juggs, make him lightsaber-proof and take away the Sith's shuttle, we can always use higher-end examples of Sith powers. Given some Force-users ability to telekinetically mess with fucking STARSHIPS, I don't doubt that Palpy and his apprentice could toss Juggernaut into space on their own.

Lukedanieljames · Post by **Lukedanieljames** » 2005-10-31 02:46pm

LordShaithis wrote:If you want to wank-out Juggs, make him lightsaber-proof and take away the Sith's shuttle, we can always use higher-end examples of Sith powers. Given some Force-users ability to telekinetically mess with fucking STARSHIPS, I don't doubt that Palpy and his apprentice could toss Juggernaut into space on their own.

there is nothing suggesting he ISN'T lightsabre proof, he can withstand temps hotter than the surface of the sun

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-10-31 02:54pm

Lightsabers arent 'hot' though they melt other materials by doing...something to them molecularly, i forgot the exact term. But its not about 'heat' just that the effect causes the object touching the blade to heat inredibly fast and at a very localized point.

Lukedanieljames · Post by **Lukedanieljames** » 2005-10-31 02:56pm

Crown wrote:Why are the Juggernaught people bitchin? Juggernaught's weakness has always been his lack of ranged attacks (inherent, not picking up a boulder and piffing it) and his mind.

Isn't it blatantly obvious that these two things would put him at a severe disadvantage against two Sith Lords who have both?

Honestly, if you wanted this debate to go differently you should have matched him against the Hulk or something.

Well not really...

sure the sith lords have mental powers and ranged attacks but so do a lot of other characters in marvel who've gotten the beat down over the years from juggy,

doens't mean they will win,

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2005-10-31 02:59pm

Lukedanieljames wrote:
Crown wrote:Why are the Juggernaught people bitchin? Juggernaught's weakness has always been his lack of ranged attacks (inherent, not picking up a boulder and piffing it) and his mind.

Isn't it blatantly obvious that these two things would put him at a severe disadvantage against two Sith Lords who have both?

Honestly, if you wanted this debate to go differently you should have matched him against the Hulk or something.
Well not really...

sure the sith lords have mental powers and ranged attacks but so do a lot of other characters in marvel who've gotten the beat down over the years from juggy,

doens't mean they will win,

Yes and did any of these characters try the oh-so-difficult tactic of suspending him in mid air, and then ripping his helmet off?

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-10-31 04:19pm

In fact, I seem to recall that a favored method of dealing with the Juggernaut is simply lifting him off the ground, whether it be via TK or by using winds (ala Storm) or another such power.

Lord of the Abyss · Post by **Lord of the Abyss** » 2005-10-31 05:34pm

The Juggernaut wears a helmet fashioned from an unknown mystical metal found in the dimension of Cyttorak. Wearing this helmet, the Juggernaut is able to resist all forms of psionic attack on his mind successfully. Recently, the Juggernaut constructed a skullcap from scraps of the metal he used to construct the helmet. He wears the skullcap under, his helmet. Hence, if his helmet is somehow removed in battle, the skullcap will provide him continued protection from psionic attacks on his mind.

The Force is not psionic, it's the Force ( note bolded ). I suspect he'd have no mental defenses at all.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-10-31 05:44pm

Lukedanieljames wrote:
LordShaithis wrote:If you want to wank-out Juggs, make him lightsaber-proof and take away the Sith's shuttle, we can always use higher-end examples of Sith powers. Given some Force-users ability to telekinetically mess with fucking STARSHIPS, I don't doubt that Palpy and his apprentice could toss Juggernaut into space on their own.
there is nothing suggesting he ISN'T lightsabre proof, he can withstand temps hotter than the surface of the sun

I already addressed that "surface of the sun" comment earlier, you ignorant lazy dipshit. Answer the fucking point. SW materials can withstand nuclear weapons going off nearby, but lightsabres cut through them easily. And at close range, nuclear weapons produce far greater power intensity than the surface of the Sun.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-10-31 05:52pm

To be fair...i think Juggernaut survived a small nuke too. Or something close to it, like one of those huge air bomb things, the name escapes me, like a MOAB. I'm sorry, that probably isnt very helpful but i think i read that once. If anyone knows, feel free to expand.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-10-31 05:57pm

And something else to mention, he wears something under his helmet too i think. Its like a smaller one, made from the same material. From the picture it's pretty solidly anchored to his head, the smaller skullcap, you'd probably have to decapitate him probably to get it off. So he has othet telepathic defenses.

m.castaldo · Post by **m.castaldo** » 2005-10-31 07:33pm

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Thats not really fair. You cant take away one side's powers and leave the other, anymore than you can say "Well lightsabers cut through anything so Juggy's forcefield will be sinatntly penetrated" without showing how. You'd have to show his forcefield somehow stops TK, which it doesnt as far as i know.

Isn't he resistant to Jean Grey's TK? Even when she was all Phoenixized?

m.castaldo · Post by **m.castaldo** » 2005-10-31 07:33pm

Whoops, forgot to add that if not, then how come her TK couldn't just take off his helmet so she could wallop him with her own psionic attacks?

ali-sama · Post by **ali-sama** » 2005-10-31 09:06pm

LordShaithis wrote:If you want to wank-out Juggs, make him lightsaber-proof and take away the Sith's shuttle, we can always use higher-end examples of

Sith powers. Given some Force-users ability to telekinetically mess with fucking STARSHIPS, I don't doubt that Palpy and his apprentice could toss

Juggernaut into space on their own.

ok then. As you wish.
So everyone knows this part of the talk will be a wankfest. I will use the high end values for juggernaught. i am doing it just to show how wankfest jug can get.
As far as the removeing of the helmet. it only happend in the cartoon. we are talking comic book jug.

Juggernaut is called the unstoppable force. why? He can be considered as a class 1000 material/force as far as using a force field/cage to stop him or to

basically trap him.

what can cause a class 1000 force?

the shockwave of a 670 MegaTons (671,080,000 T)(2,80779872e+12) is class 1000, but shock wave alone is not enough. since the rest of the stats are much

weaker.

an explosion, blast of 20 TeraTons (21,990,000,000,000 T) (2,80779872e+12 joules ) can do class 3000 shock wave and class 1000 fireball(no effect on 3000

shield) with radiation being weak,
anything that can hol that explosion in place can stop the jugernaut eaisly.

now. juggernaught has a shield around him. which is class 3000.
you woudl need a fire blast of at least 3000 with radiantion and shock wave high enough to hurt/kill him.

we get
5 ExaTons (5,764,500,000,000,000,000 T) (2.4118668e+28 joules)
CL 5000 (Shockwave)(definalty penetrate shield)
CL 3000 (Fireball)(hurt shield)
CL 1000 (Radiation)(no effect)

that woudl eaisly vape him, in my opinion. Galactus, who's endurance is at the same level as jugernaught. barely did survive it. But galactus, being

galactus, is much more powerfull in other ways which would help him survive that.

these are for explosions and not particle beams.
juggernauth can take 20 terraton explosions with ease. now you do the math.