[Leonardo Fibonacci] So when do they get a clue?

[Lusankya]

I remember in one episode of DS9, there was a weird subspace anomaly of some sort, and the first thing Dax said was, "That's odd, there hasn't been much warp activity around lately."

To me that suggests a link of some kind. At, least as much as can be proved by the science officer saying stuff. Which isn't that much, really in the scheme of things.

[Leonardo Fibonacci]

It certainly seems to in some cases, like the subspace tear being attracted to the Enterprise-D's warp core in "Insurrection" or the superluminal "subspace shock wave" from Praxis in ST6 which traveled light years away to hit the USS Excelsior like a sledge hammer but did only "ozone layer" damage to Quo'nos, which was right next to it. When something has far more effect on a Federation starship than it has on natural objects, the only reasonable explanation is that it interacts with their subspace magic-tech.

The only reasonable explanation? You are always very quick with your judgements.

Why would it not be reasonable to assume, that the "subspace shock wave" was gaining energy while travelling in subspace similar to the "soliton wave" from the TNG episode "New Ground"? It was estimated that by the time the "soliton wave" would arrive at the planet Lemma II it would contain enough energy to destroy most of the planet. And the planet was surly not equipped with a warp drive or warp core or other subspace installations, which couldn't have been dismantled to prevent the destruction of the planet.

The same thing could have happened here. The "subspace shock wave" was weak at its origin and has gained energy while travelling through subspace.

Or why would it not be reasonable to assume, that Praxis, who was only called a Klingon moon, was not a moon of Qo'noS. It could have been a moon on the other side of the Klingon territory.

Or why would it not be reasonable to assume, that the planetary shields of Qo'noS were strong enough to prevent further damage?

I'm ready to concede that your explanation is the only reasonable explanation if you show me why my explanations are not reasonable.

[Darth Wong]

You are always very quick with your judgements.

Sounds like someone has a longstanding beef against me, but will of course pretend he is just a disinterested observer trying to make a point.

It is "reasonable" to assume that something magically gained energy as it traveled, based on an idiotic interpretation of the soliton wave from a TNG episode? Do you honestly need someone to explain to you what's wrong with that thinking? Have you ever taken science at even the grade-school level? Energy does not magically accumulate out of nowhere. The soliton wave could only be explained as a constant-energy phenomenon that gained intensity as it traveled and became funneled into a narrower and narrower waveguide (look up actual soliton waves, since you clearly don't know what they are), rather than a phenomenon which magically generates energy out of nothing.

Your second explanation makes no sense either: why would Quo'nos be the only planet mentioned to be affected by this if Praxis was on the far side of Klingon space, when the Klingons must surely have many planets just like the Federation does?

As for assuming Quo'nos had a planetary shield, that leads us to yet another problem: you do not appear to understand the inverse square law.

It's easy to come up with lots of "reasonable" explanations when you have the scientific comprehension of a hamster.

[Leonardo Fibonacci]

1. I have observed your behaviour for quite a while. And your conclusions are often either wrong or badly founded.
2. Your explanation has to consider the "scientifical" framework of Star Trek. You are describing Star Trek subspace science as magic-tech. Then you have to consider it as such. You have to take into account what is established. And with the soliton wave you have a phenomenon, where a subspace wave is gaining energy while travelling in subspace. Yes, from the perspective of modern science, that's stupid because energy does not come from nowhere but is only changed from one form into another. But subspace, as described in Star Trek, does not work that way. Is gives energy from nowhere (or out of subspace whatever that is). And the soliton wave is not the only example, where the law of conservation of energy is violated or at least seems to be violated via subspace magic-tech.
3. I admit, that if Qo'noS and Praxis would be on the opposite sides of the Klingon territory, there would be many other inhabited planets between them which would also have been affected by the subspace shock wave. Insofar they can't be on the opposite sides of the Klingon territory.
   But it still could be that Praxis was nearer to the Excelsior than to Qo'noS and that no other inhabited planets were between all three. After all, space is big and habitable planets (or moons) are few and far between.
4. If you think that I don't understand the inverse square law, why don't you explain it to me? Explain to me why it is wrong if I think that it is in both alternative explanations not applicable because the subspace shock wave would have been weaker at Qo'noS than at the Excelsior. In the first possible explanation because the subspace shock wave would have gained its energy while travelling to the Excelsior and would have been still relative weak at Qo'noS and in the second possible explanation it could have been already weak because Qo'noS was further away from Praxis than the Excelsior.

[Havok]

Dude. You don't have to link that shit every single time you type it. This isn't a wiki.
As for the "scientifical" framework of Star Trek, it still has to adhere to logic and physics.

Um, question. How can that wave and the Praxis wave be traveling in sub-space if we can see them?

[Bounty]

Dude. You don't have to link that shit every single time you type it. This isn't a wiki.
As for the "scientifical" framework of Star Trek, it still has to adhere to logic and physics.

Um, question. How can that wave and the Praxis wave be traveling in sub-space if we can see them?

It's one of the big plot holes in STVI. I suppose the best handwave would be that the shockwave itself travels through subspace at FTL speeds and occasionally "burps out" something like the purple sublight thing that hit the Excelsior - a bit like how waves break - but that's just a clumsy handwave. It was never properly explained.

[Leonardo Fibonacci]

As for the "scientifical" framework of Star Trek, it still has to adhere to logic and physics.

Only as far as the "scientifical" framework of Star Trek allows it. If I'm not mistaken that's called suspension of disbelief. You can't say that something, that does not makes sense from the perspective of modern science, can't have happened if it was shown that it has happened.

Um, question. How can that wave and the Praxis wave be travelling in sub-space if we can see them?

Good question. How can one see something travelling faster than light at all? I don't know it. But it is shown in Star Trek nevertheless.

[Isolder74]

I know it is not canon but Star Fleet Command depicts Praxis as a moon of Qo'noS. It seems that every indication given us is that the planet is defiantly closer to the moon then it was to the Excelsior. If all that the wave did to the planet was strip it's ozone layer then that shows that it wasn't that intense at that point. Not that stripping the ozone from a planet isn't bad but there was no indication that there was any casualties on the planet itself.

[Leonardo Fibonacci]

I know it is not canon but Star Fleet Command depicts Praxis as a moon of Qo'noS.

You mean the computer game "Star Trek: Starfleet Command"?
I don't have it and don't know what it depicts. But as you have said: it is not canon and insofar it is irrelevant.

It seems that every indication given us is that the planet is defiantly closer to the moon then it was to the Excelsior.

Which indication? As far as I know, there is not one single (canon) evidence that shows that Qo'noS was "defiantly closer" to Praxis then Praxis was to the Excelsior.
All that was said about Praxis is that it was a Klingon moon and a key energy-production facility for the Klingon Empire.

If all that the wave did to the planet was strip it's ozone layer then that shows that it wasn't that intense at that point.

That would be the consequence for either of my proposed explanations.

Not that stripping the ozone from a planet isn't bad but there was no indication that there was any casualties on the planet itself.

They have not talked about casualties on Qo'noS. But that does not mean that one can conclude that there were no casualties. After all, they have neither talked about the casualties on Praxis and there should be no doubt that there were casualties on Praxis.

[Ghost Rider]

And dumping this one as well. At least the complete newbie understood when out of one's depth. The other seems to want to antagonize and yet wants to eat cake as well.

[Leonardo Fibonacci]

And dumping this one as well. [...] The other seems to want to antagonize and yet wants to eat cake as well.

That'd be an ad hominem. You don't address my arguments but my intention. But according to the spirit of your board rules, which are allowing the flaming of other people as long as there is still argumentative content in a post, it should be irrelevant if I'd merely want to antagonize anyone as long as I'm doing it with more or less sound arguments. Do not use my by you assumed rudeness (I'd say that the intention to antagonize someone - if that would be indeed my intention - could be considered rude) as an excuse to ignore my points.

[Isolder74]

We know what things are you do not need to add links to all your posts.

It does not make you look any smarter.

[Leonardo Fibonacci]

We know what things are you do not need to add links to all your posts.

It does not make you look any smarter.

And that also does not address my points. Now you are attacking my style and are ignoring the substance of my post.

[Isolder74]

And that also does not address my points. Now you are attacking my style and are ignoring the substance of my post.

I don't recall doing so with my post.

I am informing you that your post are annoying and show a over attention to making references that are not needed. one link would be sufficient if that. How much time are you wasting making all those links? You don't need them please stop doing it.

[Leonardo Fibonacci]

And that also does not address my points. Now you are attacking my style and are ignoring the substance of my post.

I don't recall doing so with my post.

I am informing you that your post are annoying and show a over attention to making references that are not needed. one link would be sufficient if that. How much time are you wasting making all those links? You don't need them please stop doing it.

In that case: Please excuse me. I have misunderstood your intention. Although I think that it is my problem how much time I waste by making all those links and that there is no sound reason why it should disturb you, I'll refrain in the future from making links to things, I have already linked to. Does this satisfy you?

[CDiehl]

That'd be an ad hominem.

I find it interesting that you throw the ad hominem card, after having said, among other things:

The only reasonable explanation? You are always very quick with your judgements.

I have observed your behaviour for quite a while. And your conclusions are often either wrong or badly founded.

Speaking of that last quote, you've just made a claim about Darth Wong's methods. Now, present some evidence that his "conclusions are often either wrong or badly founded."

Your explanation has to consider the "scientifical" framework of Star Trek.

Now, explain what about the "scientifical framework of Star Trek" manages to trump logic or physics.

You have to take into account what is established.

Now, explain what is "established" that trumps logic or physics. It really sounds like you've selected a conclusion, and forced the evidence to fit that conclusion.

Yes, from the perspective of modern science, that's stupid because energy does not come from nowhere but is only changed from one form into another.

Gee, very white of you to acknowledge a basic principle of physics.

But subspace, as described in Star Trek, does not work that way.

Now, prove that subspace violates conservation of energy, and how it doing so doesn't constitute magic.

Is gives energy from nowhere (or out of subspace whatever that is).

I'll assume you mean "It gives." So, does it give energy from nowhere, or does the energy come from subspace? It can't do both. Either it came from somewhere or you just violated a basic law of physics.

I admit, that if Qo'noS and Praxis would be on the opposite sides of the Klingon territory, there would be many other inhabited planets between them which would also have been affected by the subspace shock wave.

Well, there would pretty much have to be, wouldn't there? Either there's a bunch of planets that had even worse happen to them than Qo'NoS got, which went unreported, or the Klingon Empire consists of its homeworld, one remote moon and a bunch of empty planets between them. Which makes more sense?

In the first possible explanation because the subspace shock wave would have gained its energy while travelling to the Excelsior and would have been still relative weak at Qo'noS and in the second possible explanation it could have been already weak because Qo'noS was further away from Praxis than the Excelsior.

Is it just me or is this a load of gobbledygook? It would be nice if you actually provided your two "possible explanations" and then explained why they make more sense than Wong's explanation. It looks to me like you think the wave has less or more energy at varying times in order to support your preferred version of events.

[Leonardo Fibonacci]

That'd be an ad hominem.

I find it interesting that you throw the ad hominem card, after having said, among other things:

The only reasonable explanation? You are always very quick with your judgements.

Read what an ad hominem is.
It is not as though as if I have attacked Darth Wong and have ignored his point.

I have observed your behaviour for quite a while. And your conclusions are often either wrong or badly founded.

Speaking of that last quote, you've just made a claim about Darth Wong's methods. Now, present some evidence that his "conclusions are often either wrong or badly founded."

Alone in that thread there are several wrong or badly founded conclusions:

1. Darth Wong describes subspace tech as "subspace magic-tech", meaning that it does things that are impossible according to modern science. On the other side, he demands that a reasonable explanation has to adhere to science. That's contradictory: If he describes subspace tech as "subspace magic-tech" he can't demand that each observed phenomenon has to be explained adhering science. Where would be the magic? But if he expects that each observed phenomenon has to be a scientifical explainable phenomenon he can't say that they are using "subspace magic-tech" because there would be no magic.
2. He assumes that his explanation is the only reasonable explanation although there are other possible explanations too. That assumption is not founded. It is even wrong if there are indeed other reasonable explanations.
3. After one single post from me he assumes that I have "the scientific comprehension of a hamster". He concludes that I don't know anything about science without testing that hypothesis.
   
   But my point is that Star Trek shows that modern science does not always apply to it. To make such a point does not mean that I don't understand science. But the fact remains that there are many things shown in Star Trek (and most other science fiction series) that are violating physical laws. But according to the suspension of disbelief formula we have to assume that they have happened nevertheless. And that is only possible if the physical laws as we do know them do not apply.
   
   And if there is no magic, we have to assume that there are other physical laws.

Your explanation has to consider the "scientifical" framework of Star Trek.

Now, explain what about the "scientifical framework of Star Trek" manages to trump logic or physics.

Just done. Where Star Trek or other science fiction series are showing things that are impossible according to modern science, there is either magic or we have to assume that there are other physical laws which are not violated.

You have to take into account what is established.

Now, explain what is "established" that trumps logic or physics. It really sounds like you've selected a conclusion, and forced the evidence to fit that conclusion.

That was also done already. The soliton wave violates the law of conservation of energy if it is gaining energy while travelling through subspace. That's why we have to assume that our modern science does not apply but a form of fictional subspace physic.

Yes, from the perspective of modern science, that's stupid because energy does not come from nowhere but is only changed from one form into another.

Gee, very white of you to acknowledge a basic principle of physics.

Yes. It shows at least that I understand more from science than a hamster.

But subspace, as described in Star Trek, does not work that way.

Now, prove that subspace violates conservation of energy, and how it doing so doesn't constitute magic.

Just done. Either you consider the violation possible via magic or you assume that there are other physical laws.

Is gives energy from nowhere (or out of subspace whatever that is).

I'll assume you mean "It gives." So, does it give energy from nowhere, or does the energy come from subspace? It can't do both. Either it came from somewhere or you just violated a basic law of physics.

That's childish. From a scientifical point of view, where no subspace is, the energy comes from nowhere. From a point of view where one assume that there have to be - because there is no magic - other physical laws (e.g. subspace physic) the energy would come from subspace.

I admit, that if Qo'noS and Praxis would be on the opposite sides of the Klingon territory, there would be many other inhabited planets between them which would also have been affected by the subspace shock wave.

Well, there would pretty much have to be, wouldn't there? Either there's a bunch of planets that had even worse happen to them than Qo'NoS got, which went unreported, or the Klingon Empire consists of its homeworld, one remote moon and a bunch of empty planets between them. Which makes more sense?

That was also already addressed. I have admitted, that if Qo'noS and Praxis would be on the opposite sides of the Klingon territory, there would be many other inhabited planets between them which would also have been affected by the subspace shock wave. Insofar they can't be on the opposite sides of the Klingon territory.
But it still could be that Praxis was nearer to the Excelsior than to Qo'noS and that no other inhabited planets were between all three. After all, space is big and habitable planets (or moons) are few and far between.

In the first possible explanation because the subspace shock wave would have gained its energy while travelling to the Excelsior and would have been still relative weak at Qo'noS and in the second possible explanation it could have been already weak because Qo'noS was further away from Praxis than the Excelsior.

Is it just me or is this a load of gobbledygook? It would be nice if you actually provided your two "possible explanations" and then explained why they make more sense than Wong's explanation. It looks to me like you think the wave has less or more energy at varying times in order to support your preferred version of events.

If you can't bother to read that thread, I don't bother to answer you. I have already provided my two "possible explanations". Maybe you should now explain why they are not making more sense than Wong's explanation.

But I have to say for the record that I have never claimed that my explanation are making more sense than Darth Wong's explanation. I have merely said that his explanation is not the only reasonable explanation. Surly the explanation that does make the most sense is not the only reasonable explanation. Other explanation, maybe less likely, could still be reasonable, couldn't they.

[Morilore]

Someone has a vende-tta, someone has a vende-tta...

If this subspace quantum sodomy wave or whatever does gain energy as it travels outward, in complete violation of the inverse square law and every tenet of physics ever, why is ozone damage to Kronos the only thing we hear about? Wouldn't other planets in the Empire suffer even worse damage? Wouldn't fleets amassed near the Federation border be thrown about? Wouldn't other Federation ships deep inside Feddie territory be completely destroyed by this magic gains-strength shockwave? Wouldn't the Borg Collective on the other side of the galaxy be atomized? Wouldn't the entire universe outside the local region of the galaxy be utterly ruined by this pseudoscientific wave of death?

Also, what the fuck kind of word is "scientifical?"

[Baffalo]

I'm going to put my two cents in, but only to point out something I noticed.



From the looks of it, the explosion blew away quite a bit of Praxis. This remaining piece may have shielded Qo'Nos to a degree, but if it shielded Qo'Nos, then that means the remaining chunk was pointed along a vector towards Qo'Nos, and the explosion imparted energy. So, that leaves two scenarios: the chunk shielded most of Qo'Nos from the blast, yet still allowed enough to strip the ozone from the planet, or the chunk itself passed close enough to cause damage. I highly doubt the second scenario happened, mostly because we would've heard about more damage than just the ozone, and the vast distances even if it were a moon of Qo'Nos. I don't have any explanation as to why the wave, which supposedly occurred in subspace, appears in real space.

Oh, and I looked up Scientifical. Means the same as Scientific. Why he used scientifical and not scientific, I don't know.

[Leonardo Fibonacci]

If this subspace quantum sodomy wave or whatever does gain energy as it travels outward, in complete violation of the inverse square law and every tenet of physics ever, why is ozone damage to Kronos the only thing we hear about? Wouldn't other planets in the Empire suffer even worse damage? Wouldn't fleets amassed near the Federation border be thrown about? Wouldn't other Federation ships deep inside Feddie territory be completely destroyed by this magic gains-strength shockwave? Wouldn't the Borg Collective on the other side of the galaxy be atomized? Wouldn't the entire universe outside the local region of the galaxy be utterly ruined by this pseudoscientific wave of death?

The soliton wave from the TNG episode New ground is not the same phenomenon as the subspace shock wave from Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country. The soliton wave has not even come near Qo'noS.
And I don't know what would have happened with the soliton wave if it wouldn't have been stopped by the Enterprise crew. Maybe it would have gained more and more energy until it would have been too fast to further interact with something.
Maybe, if we assume for a moment that the subspace shock wave from Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country has also gained energy while travelling in subspace, that has happened to it: It has become too fast to still interact with something.
Or maybe it gains somehow energy from subspace but there is a drawback that limits its range and results in its dissolving.

I don't pretend to understand subspace physic. I merely observe what has happened in Star Trek. Not seldom that does violates physical laws as we know them. But if I can choose if I believe in magic, voodoo, mojo or god on the one side or in fictional physical laws I don't understand but which are there nevertheless on the other side, I'll always choose the later. Yes, that does mean that I have to live with the fact that not all I'm seeing in Star Trek is explainable with modern science. But if you believe in unquantifiable phenomenons, you can't explain anything either.

Also, what the fuck kind of word is "scientifical?"

Scientifical is a word you can find in many dictionaries.

[Leonardo Fibonacci]

I'm going to put my two cents in, but only to point out something I noticed.



From the looks of it, the explosion blew away quite a bit of Praxis. This remaining piece may have shielded Qo'Nos to a degree, but if it shielded Qo'Nos, then that means the remaining chunk was pointed along a vector towards Qo'Nos, and the explosion imparted energy. So, that leaves two scenarios: the chunk shielded most of Qo'Nos from the blast, yet still allowed enough to strip the ozone from the planet, or the chunk itself passed close enough to cause damage. I highly doubt the second scenario happened, mostly because we would've heard about more damage than just the ozone. I don't have any explanation as to why the wave, which supposedly occurred in subspace, appears in real space.

That the remains of Praxis could have shielded Qo'Nos so that only the fringes of the wave have reached the planet is another reasonable explanation. It does not matter if it is not the most sensible explanation (I'm not saying that it is not). It seems at least reasonable and would also contradict Darth Wong's claim that his explanation is the only reasonable explanation.

[Bounty]

Scientifical is a word you can find in many dictionaries.

As used by Locke in 1828.

As for the wave in STVI, it looked and behaved quite differently from the Soliton one in TNG. The Praxis wave acted, at least visually, like you would expect any sort of wave to act in atmosphere - ie, it travelled outward from its point of origin in all directions, not neatly single-file like the soliton wave. Moreover, it can't be like the soliton wave since that would make it self-contradictory; you say it originated in a planet (or at least moon-) wrecking event, gained power, and then did nothing more than throw the Excelsior about a bit without doing any sort of non-superficial damage?

The STVI wave was a direct result of the Praxis blast, travelled at plothole speed, threw one ship around and then dissipated. The only characteristic it shares with the TNG one is being called a "wave".

I'm going to put my two cents in, but only to point out something I noticed.

I point you to the second screenshot on this page, and the first shot of the movie past the credits. The blast travels in two dimensions and forms a full circle, so the surviving chunk of Parxis shielded nothing - if anything it was "above" or "below" the shockwave, take the shockwave itself as an imagined horizon.

[Morilore]

The soliton wave from the TNG episode New ground is not the same phenomenon as the subspace shock wave from Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country. The soliton wave has not even come near Qo'noS.
And I don't know what would have happened with the soliton wave if it wouldn't have hadn't been stopped by the Enterprise crew. Maybe it would have gained more and more energy until it would have been too fast to further interact with something.

It's obvious from context that I'm referring to the ST6 shock wave.

Maybe, if we assume for a moment that the subspace shock wave from Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country has also gained energy while travelling in subspace, that has happened to it: It has become too fast to still interact with something.
Or maybe it somehow gains somehow energy from subspace but there is a drawback that limits its range and results in its dissolving.

So, either this shockwave interacts with the effects of Treknology to specially damage starships, or it both mysteriously gains exactly enough energy in exactly the right way to throw around Excelsior-class starships several light years away while damaging Kronos's atmosphere and doing nothing more significant? Which one of these explanations has fewer undefined terms?

I don't pretend to understand subspace physics. I merely observe what has happened in Star Trek. Not seldom that does violates physical laws as we know them. But if I can choose if I believe in magic, voodoo, mojo or god on the one side or in fictional physical laws I don't understand but which are there nevertheless on the other side, I'll always choose the later. Yes, that does mean that I have to live with the fact that not all I'm seeing in Star Trek is explainable with modern science. But if you believe in unquantifiable phenomenons phenomena, you can't explain anything either.

And yet you treat fictional physical laws the same way people treat gods and magic, by thoughtlessly ascribing to them whatever characteristics are necessary to produce the desired result, instead of working from precedent and past knowledge.

Scientifical is a word you can find in many dictionaries.

Yeah, well, it's a fucking stupid word.

And STOP LINKING EVERY OTHER WORD IN YOUR FUCKING POST YOU SHITSTAINED MOTHERFUCKER ARRGH DO YOU HAVE ANY FUCKING IDEA HOW ANNOYING IT IS TO QUOTE YOUR POSTS.

[Darth Hoth]

But I have to say for the record that I have never claimed that my explanation are making more sense than Darth Wong's explanation. I have merely said that his explanation is not the only reasonable explanation. Surly the explanation that does make the most sense is not the only reasonable explanation. Other explanation, maybe less likely, could still be reasonable, couldn't they.

Please go and look up Occam's Razor (here). If there are multiple possible explanations, the one that does not violate basic laws of physics is always the best candidate.

[Baffalo]

I'm going to put my two cents in, but only to point out something I noticed.

I point you to the second screenshot on this page, and the first shot of the movie past the credits. The blast travels in two dimensions and forms a full circle, so the surviving chunk of Parxis shielded nothing - if anything it was "above" or "below" the shockwave, take the shockwave itself as an imagined horizon.

Right... yeah I have nothing to explain about that. I was just going for what I could explain. The explosion doesn't behave like any sort of explosion I've ever seen or heard about, ever. It travels in two dimensions, which is physically impossible. Nuclear explosions send their energy out in all directions, but it's only when the resulting negative pressure exceeds the pressure moving away from the center does it implode, forming that lovely mushroom cloud. With no medium to cause an implosion, there is no way that it could form a perfect disc, let alone a disc with no ejecta along the z-axis. So I agree with you Bounty, the image we see on screen must be an imagined horizon. There are very few details within defined Star Trek canon to explain the events other than it was the key event leading to peace with the Federation.