[ali-sama] Marvel Juggernaut vs Sidious and Dooku

[Enigma]

Ghetto Edit: And RPGs are canon since when? Says who? And where's that list of things that defeat Juggy? THERE ISN'T ONE? No way!

There is and it is Superman. Knocked Juggy to the floor with one punch.

See, that's what I want to know. I'm not a comic person, and I don't know shit about comic characters. I DO know that saying something is 'unstoppable' is fundamentally unscientific. In this case, I think what HAS defeated him is more useful than what HASN'T, since all an enemy has to do is replicate or exceed something that works.

And how'd Superman fight Juggernaut? Aren't they owned by different people?

Yup but it was part of the DC versus Marvel comic series.

[Ghost Rider]

Ghetto Edit: And RPGs are canon since when? Says who? And where's that list of things that defeat Juggy? THERE ISN'T ONE? No way!

There is and it is Superman. Knocked Juggy to the floor with one punch.

See, that's what I want to know. I'm not a comic person, and I don't know shit about comic characters. I DO know that saying something is 'unstoppable' is fundamentally unscientific. In this case, I think what HAS defeated him is more useful than what HASN'T, since all an enemy has to do is replicate or exceed something that works.

And how'd Superman fight Juggernaut? Aren't they owned by different people?

Was a crossover. DC vs Marvel...has as much to do with either universe as Duck Dodgers does.

The funniest bit and this one is so rarely done by most. Juggs has at time been owned by the variety X-Men team, even with their most pathetic(their initial team) and over time, while an impressive strongman, is not the particularly great threat to anyone who can exert a few tons of force to remove the helmet(which both Beast and Cyke have done to it) and some random telepath going wonky on him.

[Enigma]

If the Juggernaut is lifted a few inches off the ground and away from any objects, how the hell is he going to be chucking anything?

what will they do with him afterwards. they can't hold him up indefinatly.

Actually they can for as long as it matters.

The Empire has tractor beams, just lift him with one of those and dump him down the event horizen of a blackhole. Then he will no longer a part of the universe in any meaningful way

No they can't hold him up indefinitely. Juggy can walk in the air while suspended off the ground. The link Ali posted about Juggy mentions it that it was in his first appearance against the X-men

[m.castaldo]

One thing about the RPG stuff being canon or not. It seems that several posters on here consider the SW RPG stuff to be canon when it doesn't contradict already established facts. As such, if one allows THAT for SW, why can't one allow the marvel RPG, which was fully liscenced by Marvel itself, when creating comparisions between power levels?

[Ghost Rider]

One thing about the RPG stuff being canon or not. It seems that several posters on here consider the SW RPG stuff to be canon when it doesn't contradict already established facts. As such, if one allows THAT for SW, why can't one allow the marvel RPG, which was fully liscenced by Marvel itself, when creating comparisions between power levels?

They don't use STATS. It absolutely asinine bullshit.

It is one thing to take a bit of fluff, most people acknowledge the RPG can enter fluff, but using it for statsiscal information?

Why don't we look at the various stats of the characters and conclude since most of the mains couldn't be killed by a thermal detonator and hells blasters barely do knicks of damage. This must mean that anything from a few tons of tnt do nothing to humans and up accordingly from there.

Thus don't be a retard and claim one thing for another.

[Lord Revan]

One thing about the RPG stuff being canon or not. It seems that several posters on here consider the SW RPG stuff to be canon when it doesn't contradict already established facts. As such, if one allows THAT for SW, why can't one allow the marvel RPG, which was fully liscenced by Marvel itself, when creating comparisions between power levels?

well what does Marvel say about it? The reason we consider somethings about SW:RPG to canon is because Lucasfilm says they are canon, it's that simple.

[Stark]

No they can't hold him up indefinitely. Juggy can walk in the air while suspended off the ground. The link Ali posted about Juggy mentions it that it was in his first appearance against the X-men

Again, with no numbers this is useless. He can push against Jean Greys TK with no footholds: how does this mean he can push against a starship tractor beam? Or several? This just comes back to 'unstoppable' whoring, which is unscientific. If that's how he works, he's beyond analysis and useless in debates.

[m.castaldo]

They don't use STATS. It absolutely asinine bullshit.

But they use other facts. If the RPG stats provided actual energy levels and the like for the weaponry/shields, are you honestly telling me they wouldn't be used unless contradicted by other facts by people on these boards? I mean hell, some people count the TOY energy output for the Ep 3 starfighter. If that gets counted, why can't this?

[Lord Revan]

Ghetto EDIT:as ghostrider said sw:rpg stats are game mechanics and therefore non-canon by Lucasfilm policy.

[ali-sama]

If the Juggernaut is lifted a few inches off the ground and away from any objects, how the hell is he going to be chucking anything?

what will they do with him afterwards. they can't hold him up indefinatly.

Actually they can for as long as it matters.

The Empire has tractor beams, just lift him with one of those and dump him down the event horizen of a blackhole. Then he will no longer a part of the universe in any meaningful way

what empire?

[ali-sama]

One thing about the RPG stuff being canon or not. It seems that several posters on here consider the SW RPG stuff to be canon when it doesn't contradict already established facts. As such, if one allows THAT for SW, why can't one allow the marvel RPG, which was fully liscenced by Marvel itself, when creating comparisions between power levels?

sw rpg== fanfiction at best.

[ali-sama]

No they can't hold him up indefinitely. Juggy can walk in the air while suspended off the ground. The link Ali posted about Juggy mentions it that it was in his first appearance against the X-men

Again, with no numbers this is useless. He can push against Jean Greys TK with no footholds: how does this mean he can push against a starship tractor beam? Or several? This just comes back to 'unstoppable' whoring, which is unscientific. If that's how he works, he's beyond analysis and useless in debates.

it is magic not science.

[Ghost Rider]

They don't use STATS. It absolutely asinine bullshit.

But they use other facts. If the RPG stats provided actual energy levels and the like for the weaponry/shields, are you honestly telling me they wouldn't be used unless contradicted by other facts by people on these boards? I mean hell, some people count the TOY energy output for the Ep 3 starfighter. If that gets counted, why can't this?

Ah, so when you cannot even grasp fluff versus stats you blither out a slippery slope.

Okay, if the RPG gave accurate statistics on energy, no one would take it UNLESS it was a definitive value based upon SI units. Do they even use that? No? What did the toy use?

What do RPG stats use instead? Units based upon their own arbitrary system. Wow, such objective evidence.

Well, fuck blows your simple minded piece of bullshit out of the water.

[Lord Revan]

They don't use STATS. It absolutely asinine bullshit.

But they use other facts. If the RPG stats provided actual energy levels and the like for the weaponry/shields, are you honestly telling me they wouldn't be used unless contradicted by other facts by people on these boards? I mean hell, some people count the TOY energy output for the Ep 3 starfighter. If that gets counted, why can't this?

Game mechanics, games are first suppose to be fun to play so they might decreace or increace some stats for balance reasons, that's stat from toy can be canon but not stats from a game.

[Stark]

They don't use STATS. It absolutely asinine bullshit.

But they use other facts. If the RPG stats provided actual energy levels and the like for the weaponry/shields, are you honestly telling me they wouldn't be used unless contradicted by other facts by people on these boards? I mean hell, some people count the TOY energy output for the Ep 3 starfighter. If that gets counted, why can't this?

You've missed the point. Nobody thinks ISD turbolasers deliver '4D6' damage, which is what ali is saying. As GR says, we can use the RPG stats to come up with utterly ridiculous things for SW - the catch is if THE RESULT isn't consistent, it's thrown out. Basing an entire argument on RPG stats - without the benefit of a canon policy giving it any particular status - to dismiss ACTUAL EVENTS is dishonest.

As far as I can see, if Juggy gets beaten by X-men, that's pretty fucking lame for Mr No-Limits Fallacy.

[Enigma]

No they can't hold him up indefinitely. Juggy can walk in the air while suspended off the ground. The link Ali posted about Juggy mentions it that it was in his first appearance against the X-men

Again, with no numbers this is useless. He can push against Jean Greys TK with no footholds: how does this mean he can push against a starship tractor beam? Or several? This just comes back to 'unstoppable' whoring, which is unscientific. If that's how he works, he's beyond analysis and useless in debates.

I meant it more as being able to resist Dooku and Sidious's TK than tractor beams. Sorry if I didn't clear things up. I don't know about ISD's tractor beams because as far as I know Juggy never encountered a similar scenario.

[m.castaldo]

Ah, so when you cannot even grasp fluff versus stats you blither out a slippery slope.

Okay, if the RPG gave accurate statistics on energy, no one would take it UNLESS it was a definitive value based upon SI units. Do they even use that? No? What did the toy use?

What do RPG stats use instead? Units based upon their own arbitrary system. Wow, such objective evidence.

Well, fuck blows your simple minded piece of bullshit out of the water.

Not especially, since you agreed with the fact that if the stats DID provide a scientific method of energy expansion/explosion/measurement, people would accept it as fact. Which was the only point I was trying to make. Concession accepted.

[Stark]

I meant it more as being able to resist Dooku and Sidious's TK than tractor beams. Sorry if I didn't clear things up. I don't know about ISD's tractor beams because as far as I know Juggy never encountered a similar scenario.

Well from my spotty knowledge, aren't Jean Grey's abilities a bit all over the place? Without knowing how much force there was behind her TK in that case, we can't compare to Sith feats.

Then again, why can't he fly? Serious question: it appears he can move any way he wants - why not fly?

[m.castaldo]

You've missed the point. Nobody thinks ISD turbolasers deliver '4D6' damage, which is what ali is saying. As GR says, we can use the RPG stats to come up with utterly ridiculous things for SW - the catch is if THE RESULT isn't consistent, it's thrown out. Basing an entire argument on RPG stats - without the benefit of a canon policy giving it any particular status - to dismiss ACTUAL EVENTS is dishonest.

No, I get that point, and agree with that. All I was saying is that by using the rpg stats and combining it with visual evidence from the comics to show how a Class 1000 forcefield can absorb energy, how is that different then when using other visual evidence for other genres?

As far as I can see, if Juggy gets beaten by X-men, that's pretty fucking lame for Mr No-Limits Fallacy.

Depends, technically most of the times the X-Men won was through luck, somewhat. IIRC the only one who actually handed him his ass was Onslaught, when he got punched from somewhere in Canada down into upperstate New York. A punch which he walked away from, if scared out of his ass.

[Ghost Rider]

Ah, so when you cannot even grasp fluff versus stats you blither out a slippery slope.

Okay, if the RPG gave accurate statistics on energy, no one would take it UNLESS it was a definitive value based upon SI units. Do they even use that? No? What did the toy use?

What do RPG stats use instead? Units based upon their own arbitrary system. Wow, such objective evidence.

Well, fuck blows your simple minded piece of bullshit out of the water.

Not especially, since you agreed with the fact that if the stats DID provide a scientific method of energy expansion/explosion/measurement, people would accept it as fact. Which was the only point I was trying to make. Concession accepted.

Wow, and now Strawmanning

I said IF, in other words if the said an ISD generator provide 1*10^38 J.

Do they you fucking moron?

Oh wait, they don't. So please show mean anywhere in SI units what class 1000 or 18D mean.

Fuck off troll.

[ali-sama]

There is and it is Superman. Knocked Juggy to the floor with one punch.

See, that's what I want to know. I'm not a comic person, and I don't know shit about comic characters. I DO know that saying something is 'unstoppable' is fundamentally unscientific. In this case, I think what HAS defeated him is more useful than what HASN'T, since all an enemy has to do is replicate or exceed something that works.

And how'd Superman fight Juggernaut? Aren't they owned by different people?

Was a crossover. DC vs Marvel...has as much to do with either universe as Duck Dodgers does.

The funniest bit and this one is so rarely done by most. Juggs has at time been owned by the variety X-Men team, even with their most pathetic(their initial team) and over time, while an impressive strongman, is not the particularly great threat to anyone who can exert a few tons of force to remove the helmet(which both Beast and Cyke have done to it) and some random telepath going wonky on him.

yes sir, you are correct. this is due to this fallacy.

MISCONCEPTION:"The Juggernaut's armor and helmet are made from the same material."


Though there are discrepancies The Juggernaut's armor is not made of metal,but of an unknown indestructible mystical fabric. His helmet is made of an unknown mystical metal that while psi-proof,is not indestructible by any means and has in fact been torn apart or destroyed several times.

http://marvel.com/universe/index.htm

please click on the following link then go to juggernaught.

The Juggernaut possesses untold power, mystical in nature, which enhances his strength and grants him an extraordinary degree of resistance to all forms of injury. Once he begins moving in a certain direction, no force on Earth can stop him -- only slow his pace. Sustained by the Crimson Gem of Cyttorak, Cain Marko can survive indefinitely without food, water or oxygen. However, Juggernaut is vulnerable to magical forces of sufficient strength. Without his helmet, constructed of an unknown mystical metal, he is susceptible to psionic attack.



Supernatural strength

Invulnerability

Telepathy-blocking helmet

[Xon]

what empire?

The only fucking Empire vaguely in the debate, the Starwars Galactic Empire.

it is magic not science.

It has been widely claimed that science should "not apply" at all to any subject involving fantasy. However, it has also been shown quite clearly that:

1. Anti-science whores do apply science, but only when it suits them.
2. Anti-science whores do not understand how science is used in real life (if an observation is made which contradicts a scientific theory, we revise our theories to incorporate both the old data and the new data, rather than simply throwing everything out the window).
3. Anti-science whores are woefully ignorant of science, which is probably the single biggest reason for their behaviour.
4. Anti-science whores do not recognize that if you can prove a particular anime, comic, or fantasy series is depicted in a hopelessly subjective way, that it is impossible by definition to produce objective conclusions, with or without science. In essence, any excessively subjective depiction of a story becomes a one-sided myth like the Bible, in which you can take nothing at face value because no effort was made at objectivity in the first place. They want to have their cake and eat it too: pretend that you can generate objective conclusions without having to obey any of the rules for objectivity and logic.
5. Anti-science whores think that people who apply science intend to dismiss any event which is not possible according to known science, because they seem to be too stupid to recognize that this is not what we're trying to do (see item #2).

In short, the anti-science whores are liars and hypocrites, who use the "science doesn't apply" argument not because they have thought it through or are even willing to evenly apply it, but because they think it's a convenient way to dismiss arguments that they can't deal with any other way.

If you're an anti-science whore and you think I'm being unfair to flame you in an announcement like this, then go to another fucking website. I am under no obligation to create a website which was primarily created to discuss sci-fi and other subjects from a rational, objective point of view and then humour people who want to remake this board in the image of some other shit board full of scientific ignoramuses that they would rather be on.

If you want to discuss this subject, go here and enjoy the flames: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=25912

It seems some people require examples, since they do not understand concepts. In particular, many fantasy geekboys come here and say that magic cannot be quantified. Perhaps they do not understand what quantification is, or how numbers apply. Allow me to provide an example:

A fantasy wizard has a magic spell which is said to make him invincible. Let us further suppose that we see him use it against a foe who can throw lightning, and it seems to work.

The magic geekboy would look at this and conclude "yes, this spell makes him invincible. We know because he used it and it worked. Therefore, God himself could not overwhelm this spell."

An empirically-minded (read: scientifically minded) person looks at this same evidence and says "if we had not seen the spell in action, we would not know whether it works at all. Now that we have seen it in action, we know that it works well enough to block or at least redirect a lightning strike. We can use data from normal lightning strikes as a rough estimate for the energy and power levels involved, and this would represent a lower limit for its capabilities."

Any further extrapolation of its abilities is unreasonable unless you assume literal semantic inerrancy on the part of the source. And bear in mind that even if one does assume literal semantic inerrancy on the part of the source, all you have to do is find a single flaw in the literal semantic inerrancy of the entire book (or comic series, or entire series of books, etc) and that house of cards comes crashing down.

[Lord Revan]

Ah, so when you cannot even grasp fluff versus stats you blither out a slippery slope.

Okay, if the RPG gave accurate statistics on energy, no one would take it UNLESS it was a definitive value based upon SI units. Do they even use that? No? What did the toy use?

What do RPG stats use instead? Units based upon their own arbitrary system. Wow, such objective evidence.

Well, fuck blows your simple minded piece of bullshit out of the water.

Not especially, since you agreed with the fact that if the stats DID provide a scientific method of energy expansion/explosion/measurement, people would accept it as fact. Which was the only point I was trying to make. Concession accepted.

actually even if the stats WERE in SI units there's still game balance/mechanic to account for, good example of is I recently completed a Quest in WOW in place called Mannoroc Coven and during this quest I was attacked by a demon weilding an axe which was so big that blade was about the same size as my chars torso yet it took several blows to get health bar to drop to half rather then char being cut in half by the first blow.

[ali-sama]

Ah, so when you cannot even grasp fluff versus stats you blither out a slippery slope.

Okay, if the RPG gave accurate statistics on energy, no one would take it UNLESS it was a definitive value based upon SI units. Do they even use that? No? What did the toy use?

What do RPG stats use instead? Units based upon their own arbitrary system. Wow, such objective evidence.

Well, fuck blows your simple minded piece of bullshit out of the water.

Not especially, since you agreed with the fact that if the stats DID provide a scientific method of energy expansion/explosion/measurement, people would accept it as fact. Which was the only point I was trying to make. Concession accepted.

Wow, and now Strawmanning

I said IF, in other words if the said an ISD generator provide 1*10^38 J.

Do they you fucking moron?

Oh wait, they don't. So please show mean anywhere in SI units what class 1000 or 18D mean.

Fuck off troll.

ignore him. He won't listen that the sw rpg is at best fanfictioon.

[Ghost Rider]

And really to add another bit...it'd have to agree with canon. So yes, if the RPG made hard objective proof, people would use it the stats because then it's not arbitrary, so in other words how does this reflect upon using Marvel RPG stats?

Very poorly unless you care to demonstrate that Class 1000, Shift Z, or Amazing mean anything in SI units.