Zerg Vs. Btech

[TheMuffinKing]

The Zerg make a run at eating the Inner Sphere. The Zerg have 1 year to chew through the Draconis Combine before the writer's fiat self destruct gene takes effect. Can I.S. forces hold back or defeat the Zerg?

1. The Zerg start out on a backwater planet with no mech garrison. The palnet is exactly the same as the first one from the Starcraft game.

2. A massive Zerg fleet arrives from the periphery and is the same size as the one led by Kerrigan.

3. Zerg arrive to an unprepared I.S.

4. Zerg arrive at an I.S. expecting a massive war. They're "Geared Up".

[Chris OFarrell]

What year?

[TheMuffinKing]

Oops, 3049. If that's too tough, then during the Star League, right before Kerensky moves beyond the Periphary.

Failing either than I'll randomly choose 2089.

[Nephtys]

The Zerg make a run at eating the Inner Sphere. The Zerg have 1 year to chew through the Draconis Combine before the writer's fiat self destruct gene takes effect. Can I.S. forces hold back or defeat the Zerg?

1. The Zerg start out on a backwater planet with no mech garrison. The palnet is exactly the same as the first one from the Starcraft game.

2. A massive Zerg fleet arrives from the periphery and is the same size as the one led by Kerrigan.

3. Zerg arrive to an unprepared I.S.

4. Zerg arrive at an I.S. expecting a massive war. They're "Geared Up".

Given how slow Starcraft FTL is, will it take a year to actually move between each and every planet of the Draconis Combine?

Zerg in space don't seem that impressive, when IS Warships (what few there are) can absorb direct tactical nuclear hits. Which Zerg can't. Still, Given that it's the IS during the clan invasion it would seem, I doubt they could stop a space attack.

As for Ground Attack? Possibly they could hold fine. Mechs seem incredibly more mobile than the way zerg are portrayed in the little cutscene movies. Even Zerglings rushing across an open field.

[TheMuffinKing]

Hmm, I didn't take Zerg travel time into consideration. Lets say the Zerg have five years to accomplish their goals.

Vespene gas and crystals are a non-issue.

[DesertFly]

Hmm, I didn't take Zerg travel time into consideration. Lets say the Zerg have five years to accomplish their goals.

Vespene gas and crystals are a non-issue.

I'm pretty sure that Zerg can "teleport" between systems, at least small groups of them can. That's the impression I got from playing the games: the bulk of the swarm moves through normal space to get from system to system, but they can jump if they want. In fact, there's a cinematic in Starcraft specifically devoted to that subject.

[avatarxprime]

Hmm, I didn't take Zerg travel time into consideration. Lets say the Zerg have five years to accomplish their goals.

Vespene gas and crystals are a non-issue.

I'm pretty sure that Zerg can "teleport" between systems, at least small groups of them can. That's the impression I got from playing the games: the bulk of the swarm moves through normal space to get from system to system, but they can jump if they want. In fact, there's a cinematic in Starcraft specifically devoted to that subject.

I think their ability to create warp points is limited, they need to have a specific destination the Overmind can "lock in" on. However, that's what scouts are for, Zerg scouts are capable of interstellar travel based on the info from the manual.

[TheMuffinKing]

How do the Zerg fare in space?
I was also under the impression that Nukes in Btech were strictly taboo. Though I haven't read anything about that in about ten years... I'm also unaware of space capabilities in Btech. I know about the fighters, but the ships are an enigma to me.

Honestly I think space superiority will be a main factor overall.

[Steven Snyder]

IIRC

Btech nukes were banned by the Aries Conventions...which I doubt apply to the Zerg.

[Zor]

How do the Zerg fare in space?
I was also under the impression that Nukes in Btech were strictly taboo. Though I haven't read anything about that in about ten years... I'm also unaware of space capabilities in Btech. I know about the fighters, but the ships are an enigma to me.

Only the Really Big ships are capable of FTL which in Battletech Verse allows you to jump anywere within about 20 LY instantly but takes days to weeks (Depending on type of ship) to recharge/cool off. These Jumpships are slow, only capable of a fraction of a gravity acceleration but fightercraft can accelerate at 20 to 30 gs.

As well, there are thousands of Colonized systems in the Battletechverse.

Zor

[consequences]

Zerg in space don't seem that impressive, when IS Warships (what few there are) can absorb direct tactical nuclear hits. Which Zerg can't. Still, Given that it's the IS during the clan invasion it would seem, I doubt they could stop a space attack.

Actually, unless they changed the rules, any nuclear attack that hits is an instagib against any BT craft, regardless of whether they have the armor to theoretically take the damage the attack inflicts.

[Batman]

Only the Really Big ships are capable of FTL

Technically incorrect. While jumpships DO tend to be huge that's because they're designed to transpoer lots of drop ships. There have been jumpships as small as 6,100 ts.

which in Battletech Verse allows you to jump anywere within about 20 LY instantly

30, actually.

but takes days to weeks (Depending on type of ship) to recharge/cool off.

Wrong again. The recharge time (no mention of cooling off ever I can recall) depends on the type of star and their distance from it because due to writer's fiat they can't recharge the jump drive off the ship's own reactors except when hotloading them (curiously enough recharging off a space station in a short time is no problem).

These Jumpships are slow, only capable of a fraction of a gravity acceleration but fightercraft can accelerate at 20 to 30 gs.[/i]
In theory, thanks to BT not having artificial gravity. And if this happens during the Star League era, Warships do have single-figure g accelerations.
Does anybody have any hard numbers on the Zerg (both space and ground)? Because if we go by game mechanics I rather suspect they're fucked.

[Batman]

I think me and quote tags just don't get along. If a bored mod wanders by, pretty please?

[RhoOmicronMu]

Actually, unless they changed the rules, any nuclear attack that hits is an instagib against any BT craft, regardless of whether they have the armor to theoretically take the damage the attack inflicts.

They changed the rules. 300 kiloton nukes do 100 capital scale damage with a direct hit on the hull. If they don’t get a contact hit nothing happens.

[consequences]

Actually, unless they changed the rules, any nuclear attack that hits is an instagib against any BT craft, regardless of whether they have the armor to theoretically take the damage the attack inflicts.

They changed the rules. 300 kiloton nukes do 100 capital scale damage with a direct hit on the hull. If they don’t get a contact hit nothing happens.

Joy. Which book was this in, so I can laugh myself silly at their further pointless retcons?

[PainRack]

Wrong again. The recharge time (no mention of cooling off ever I can recall) depends on the type of star and their distance from it because due to writer's fiat they can't recharge the jump drive off the ship's own reactors except when hotloading them (curiously enough recharging off a space station in a short time is no problem).

The real limiting factor is because the kf drive can only accept a limited amount of power. Exceed a certain power rate and the drive runs the risk of being fried, which is what occurs when hot-loading.

Recharging from a fusion reactor is perfectly a-okay, because this is what happens when a jumpship is equipped with lithium batteries. The drive is charged from solar while the bats are run off the ship engines, although again, penny-pinching means that many captains won't do this as it runs down the fuel.

In theory, thanks to BT not having artificial gravity. And if this happens during the Star League era, Warships do have single-figure g accelerations.
Does anybody have any hard numbers on the Zerg (both space and ground)? Because if we go by game mechanics I rather suspect they're fucked.

Joy. Which book was this in, so I can laugh myself silly at their further pointless retcons?

Technically, since the SL sourcebook details warships that take multiple hits by the Reagan system to die and we know that part of the caspar drones consist of sucide drones equipped with nukes, meant to penetrate the armour before KOing the ship, it isn't a retcon. Its just a inconsistency of course.

IIRC

Btech nukes were banned by the Aries Conventions...which I doubt apply to the Zerg.

The use of nukes against ground targets, unless it was a military target with no possibility of collatoral damage is banned by the Ares Conventions. An unofficial update, due to the loss of jumpships in the Succession wars unofficially banned the use of nukes, or even the destruction of jumpships. The Snow Ravens probably are just bad losers in this regard.

[Coalition]

Joy. Which book was this in, so I can laugh myself silly at their further pointless retcons?

Dawn of the Jihad book, where they give specific numbers of nuclear damage against spaceships, for varrying kilo and megatonnage.

For recharging, that is where most people get annoyed at Battletech in space. The energy available from solar power at the radius most jumpships use is a fraction of the energy available from fusing a kilogram of hydrogen.

For recharging from a space station, you are recharging from theironboard batteries, and quick-charging penalties still apply.

The Jumpships are slow, that is because their FTL core masses 95% their tonnage, and each Drosphip point masses another 1000 tons. Each half G of acceleration costs 6% the ship's mass. Warships have ~45% their mass in their FTL core, meaning more mass available for weapons and engines.

[Imperial Overlord]

The thing about the ban is

1) It gets broken. It got broken as recently as the FC Civil War and that's without bringing in the nuke happy Blakists Jihadis into it. The rulers of the great houses don't consider their use unthinkable. Theodore Kurita has mentioned the possibility of their use at least once. Its just that the consequences usually aren't worth it and the limited war style of the IS and Clans discourages it.

2) Alien swarm bastards aren't covered.

[PainRack]

Dawn of the Jihad book, where they give specific numbers of nuclear damage against spaceships, for varrying kilo and megatonnage.

Errr, which book is this? If you're referring to the first sourcebook, I have it. And I can't find it. Mind referencing it?

For recharging, that is where most people get annoyed at Battletech in space. The energy available from solar power at the radius most jumpships use is a fraction of the energy available from fusing a kilogram of hydrogen.

For recharging from a space station, you are recharging from theironboard batteries, and quick-charging penalties still apply.

It isn't an inconsistency. The simple fact is that the KF drives capacitors can only be charged slowly. What's so difficult about it?

Solar Energy is used simply because its relatively cheap and free. There's no point in wasting 99.999% of fusion power to charge the drive.

The Jumpships are slow, that is because their FTL core masses 95% their tonnage, and each Drosphip point masses another 1000 tons. Each half G of acceleration costs 6% the ship's mass. Warships have ~45% their mass in their FTL core, meaning more mass available for weapons and engines.

And of course, game terms mean squat.

They're slow because jumpships were never meant for intra-stellar travel. That's what the RPG says and its good enough. Next, you be quoting the lifeboat and how they can't re-enter atmosphere, ignoring the fact that that was exactly what they were designed for. Just a quick pod for you to float around in space while rescue pick you up.

The thing about the ban is

1) It gets broken. It got broken as recently as the FC Civil War and that's without bringing in the nuke happy Blakists Jihadis into it. The rulers of the great houses don't consider their use unthinkable. Theodore Kurita has mentioned the possibility of their use at least once. Its just that the consequences usually aren't worth it and the limited war style of the IS and Clans discourages it.

2) Alien swarm bastards aren't covered.

From FM Mercnaries

Articles I and VI prohibited the use of chemical, biological and radiological warfare, noting that such weapons killed indiscriminately. The one exception listed was the use of controlled nuclear attacks against military targets in space. Later, when the loss of all Warships and the critical endangerment of Jumpships threatened to end interstellar travel altogether, this exception was nullified by the mutual consent of all parties.

Articles II restricted orbital bombardments against planetary surfaces, allowing only tactical strikes against valid military targets far outside civilian population centers. Soon, however, the lack of WarShips in the Inner Sphere precluded even this restricted use.

Through these conventions have been widely accepted and observed since their drafting, the Great House militaries have repeatedly suspended them to suit their own military needs.

A good example of this in the 4th Succession War was the use of potamine poisoning to disable a goodly portion of Northwind defenders, as well as the use of chemical weapons in the capture of Prospernina in the 3rd Succession War.

So, technically, alien swarm bastards are covered under the laws. The Great Houses however usually don't care. Nukes aren't used probably because the available stockpile is just too small.

[Imperial Overlord]

The Zerg haven't signed the Ares Conventions and, unlike the Clans, don't also subscribe to a form of limited war. The fight the Tyranid knock off way of total war and certainly wouldn't enjoy the protection of the Ares Convention (even if the House Lords would be crazy enough to stick with it) because the Ares Conventions, at least implicitely, assume all warring parties are bound by it.

I don't think there is a cannon figure for the number of nukes the great houses have, although it should be possible to deduce the size of the Blakist stockpiles since they started to run out mid-Jihad, but they are common enough that one of Katrina's commanders was able to get her hands on them and use them on her own initiative. Its also possible to make more, which is signifigant considering the slow speed of Zerg FTL and the size of the Inner Sphere.

[Nephtys]

It isn't an inconsistency. The simple fact is that the KF drives capacitors can only be charged slowly. What's so difficult about it?

Solar Energy is used simply because its relatively cheap and free. There's no point in wasting 99.999% of fusion power to charge the drive.

Quick-charging the drive using the fusion reactor IS possible though, but the books mention it has a chance of damaging or destroying the capacitors. Given how hard it is to make a KF, that's pretty reasonable they don't do it.

[Batman]

For recharging, that is where most people get annoyed at Battletech in space. The energy available from solar power at the radius most jumpships use is a fraction of the energy available from fusing a kilogram of hydrogen.
For recharging from a space station, you are recharging from theironboard batteries, and quick-charging penalties still apply.

It isn't an inconsistency. The simple fact is that the KF drives capacitors can only be charged slowly. What's so difficult about it?

If recharging from station batteries means you face the same problems hotloading from the reactor does it's indeed not, I was assuming that you can recharge the KF drive from the stations safely (which is the way I remember it from the novels/source books dealing with recharge stations but it's been quite a while since I read those so it wouldn't particularly surprise me if I'm wrong). That being said, it IS an inconsistency. See below.

Solar Energy is used simply because its relatively cheap and free. There's no point in wasting 99.999% of fusion power to charge the drive.

Yes there is unless the cost of a couple of kilograms of hydrogen outweighs the cost of the sail, storage space, retrieval mechanism, and other related costs of that stupid solar sail. Have you any idea how pathetic the energy a sail can collect is compared to what a fusion reactor can provide?
My issue with the KF drive has never been the problems with hotloading- current day rechargeables have the very same problem, you recharge them to fast they go boom- but the fact that they use them stupid sails to do it.
And the Li-fusion batteries only make it worse. Either you can fast-recharge the drive or you can't. If you CAN why does doing so from the batteries pose less of a danger than doing so from the reactor?

[PainRack]

If recharging from station batteries means you face the same problems hotloading from the reactor does it's indeed not, I was assuming that you can recharge the KF drive from the stations safely (which is the way I remember it from the novels/source books dealing with recharge stations but it's been quite a while since I read those so it wouldn't particularly surprise me if I'm wrong). That being said, it IS an inconsistency. See below.

You CAN. Unless the RPG rules are utterly overwritten by Battlespace, in which case I demand proof.

Yes there is unless the cost of a couple of kilograms of hydrogen outweighs the cost of the sail, storage space, retrieval mechanism, and other related costs of that stupid solar sail. Have you any idea how pathetic the energy a sail can collect is compared to what a fusion reactor can provide?

Why, yes, I do. However, it appears you don't.

Again, are you telling me its more efficient to simply waste 99.9999% of fusion power? You're not talking about a couple of kilograms. You're talking about simply WASTING most of the energy derivived from a gram of hydrogen.

Note that for the quick recharge stations, they ARE powered by either solar or fusion reactors, before beaming them via microwave to waiting jumpships.

My issue with the KF drive has never been the problems with hotloading- current day rechargeables have the very same problem, you recharge them to fast they go boom- but the fact that they use them stupid sails to do it.
And the Li-fusion batteries only make it worse. Either you can fast-recharge the drive or you can't. If you CAN why does doing so from the batteries pose less of a danger than doing so from the reactor?

The batteries don't fast charge the drive. They store an additional charge. Its simply an additional capacitor or whatever techno-mumbo you want to call it to activate the hyperspace fields.

The Zerg haven't signed the Ares Conventions and, unlike the Clans, don't also subscribe to a form of limited war. The fight the Tyranid knock off way of total war and certainly wouldn't enjoy the protection of the Ares Convention (even if the House Lords would be crazy enough to stick with it) because the Ares Conventions, at least implicitely, assume all warring parties are bound by it.

I don't think there is a cannon figure for the number of nukes the great houses have, although it should be possible to deduce the size of the Blakist stockpiles since they started to run out mid-Jihad, but they are common enough that one of Katrina's commanders was able to get her hands on them and use them on her own initiative. Its also possible to make more, which is signifigant considering the slow speed of Zerg FTL and the size of the Inner Sphere.

The Ares conventions are similar to the Geneva accords of today. It doesn't matter if your opponent hasn't signed it, all that matters is that your nation has.

However, the great houses certainly won't bother sticking to the code. we already know that it was abandoned during the Succession wars and poison was used similarly during the Clan invasion(Invading Clans Sourcebook)

sadly, I don't have the Los Alamos project sourcebook, so, the status of the IS nuke production is unknown to me.

[Imperial Overlord]

The Ares conventions are similar to the Geneva accords of today. It doesn't matter if your opponent hasn't signed it, all that matters is that your nation has.

On rereading it, I conceed. However, the conventions specifically refer to preserving human life, so the Zerg aren't protected unless the conventions are ammended to include aliens (yeah, I see that happening).

[Batman]

If recharging from station batteries means you face the same problems hotloading from the reactor does it's indeed not, I was assuming that you can recharge the KF drive from the stations safely (which is the way I remember it from the novels/source books dealing with recharge stations but it's been quite a while since I read those so it wouldn't particularly surprise me if I'm wrong). That being said, it IS an inconsistency. See below.

You CAN. Unless the RPG rules are utterly overwritten by Battlespace, in which case I demand proof.

I take this to mean you CAN safely fast-recharge from the station.
In that case what's the problem with fast-recharging from the onboard reactor?

Yes there is unless the cost of a couple of kilograms of hydrogen outweighs the cost of the sail, storage space, retrieval mechanism, and other related costs of that stupid solar sail. Have you any idea how pathetic the energy a sail can collect is compared to what a fusion reactor can provide?

Why, yes, I do. However, it appears you don't.
Again, are you telling me its more efficient to simply waste 99.9999% of fusion power? You're not talking about a couple of kilograms.

Yes I am. Do the math on what kind of power a solar sail can collect at the distances depicted in BT.

You're talking about simply WASTING most of the energy derivived from a gram of hydrogen.

Are you on drugs? I'm talking about spending a couple pounds of the commonest substance in the universe (barring stupidity) vs investing a couple billion credits into the machinery needed to use a jumpsail.

Note that for the quick recharge stations, they ARE powered by either solar or fusion reactors, before beaming them via microwave to waiting jumpships.

So?

My issue with the KF drive has never been the problems with hotloading- current day rechargeables have the very same problem, you recharge them to fast they go boom- but the fact that they use them stupid sails to do it.
And the Li-fusion batteries only make it worse. Either you can fast-recharge the drive or you can't. If you CAN why does doing so from the batteries pose less of a danger than doing so from the reactor?

The batteries don't fast charge the drive. They store an additional charge. Its simply an additional capacitor or whatever techno-mumbo you want to call it to activate the hyperspace fields.

Assuming that's official (which coming from you I suspect it is) I can live with that.
Still doesn't explain why they can safely fast-reload from recharge stations (unless I misunderstood your comment further up).