Were the marines in Aliens competent?

[brianeyci]

Okay here's the math... one hundred and fifty colonists, one hundred and fifty aliens. Why couldn't they win?

They have ranged weapons, flamethrowers, an armored personnel vehicle, air support and motion detectors. I saw James Cameron's commentary that this was supposed to be about how low-technology defeats high-technology but it strains credibility.

Apone getting killed while tapping his microphone was particularly stupid, as was some aliens being bullet resistant. Vasquez shot an alien point blank but Gorman does the same a minute later and the alien's just a little further away and doesn't get killed. Gorman and Vasquez were firing with their sidearms, but their rifles were firing "10 mm caseless armor piercing explosive rounds" so they should have had no problem chewing through the aliens.

Especially the aliens trying to break through the turrets. Each turret had 200 rounds and they had 4 of them. How come the turrets didn't end up killing 150 aliens?

Does anybody have this problem rewatching Aliens realizing how stupid the marines were? Or that the marines weren't really stupid, but they lost because the plot dictated them to? They had the perfect weapons to kill the aliens.

How come they didn't anticipate the aliens coming through the roof after the turrets held them off when in the beginning of the movie they make a big deal of looking at a hole in the roof for a minute, and in the lair they were ambushed from aliens hanging from the roof? Okay Ripley was calling the shots, but Vasquez was there too and she would have said something about the fuckers coming through the roof. My only thought is they were too stupid to think of it.

Brian

[neoolong]

Some of them were obviously stupid. Like the pilots landing the dropship and leaving the door open with noone guarding it.

Or Gorman telling the guys to practically disarm and proceed with only a couple of flame throwers.

[Duckie]

The Marines should have won. However, going on after they realized they couldn't shoot their guns in the reactor area was retarded. They should have retreated to the APC to figure something else out or the Lieutenant should have not ordered them to unload their weapons.

If they had done that, it should have been cake.

[Duckie]

Edit- Yeah, the Dropship getting compromised as the other retarded thing.

Still, even if that happens, worst comes to worst if they pull back they can use the other dropship piloted via the Synthetic or another pilot to go and nuke the sight from orbit as Ripley recommends.

[Alyeska]

Funny how its always the non-soldiers who rip Aliens. Every soldier I know who watched it said it was a fairly good showing of the military. About as good as you can expect them to act as soldiers set up in a bad situation. Burke intentionaly pulled strings to assign a brand new LT to the mission and only a single squad. They lost most of their number to an ambush against an enemy they had no concept of fighting. After those near disasters, the surviving marines regrouped and kicked serious ass until their luck ran out.

[brianeyci]

Okay, look at it this way. Give one hundred and fifty guys gladiuses in a building and send soldiers with flamethrowers and high-tech rifles in. How many do you think the guys with gladiuses will kill? If you say one you're saying one too many.

The bag full of ammunition exploding and killing half the marines--obvious plot device.

Not using the nerve gas--why not they should have tried it.

The aliens somehow getting past the turrets--plot device, a narrow hallway and melee weapons, a machine gunner's dream.

Them not realizing the aliens would come from the roof--plot device.

I'm finding that I'm having a lot less patience for characters being stupid because the writer isn't imaginative enough to advance the plot without stupidity.

And the marines didn't look professional at all... obviously an allusion to Vietnam, and supports the in-universe idea that they were incompetent. Maybe poor fire discipline, poor marksmanship. Even after Gorman lost them all, they should still have been able to hold the command center.

Brian

[Alyeska]

The bag full of ammunition exploding and killing half the marines--obvious plot device.

They only lost 2 people or so to that explossion.

Not using the nerve gas--why not they should have tried it.

By the time they could consider this option, they lacked the manpower.

The aliens somehow getting past the turrets--plot device, a narrow hallway and melee weapons, a machine gunner's dream.

They lacked the ammo. And how did the Aliens get in? Simple, they used the prexisting holes to the structure (remember the rain water getting in?) and simply crawled about the ceiling.

Them not realizing the aliens would come from the roof--plot device.

These are soldiers. They think about what they primarily have to deal with. Such an intrusion is not their normal problem.

I'm finding that I'm having a lot less patience for characters being stupid because the writer isn't imaginative enough to advance the plot without stupidity.

Only one truly stupid charater. That was Gorman. And that was intentional on Burke's part.

And the marines didn't look professional at all... obviously an allusion to Vietnam, and supports the in-universe idea that they were incompetent. Maybe poor fire discipline, poor marksmanship. Even after Gorman lost them all, they should still have been able to hold the command center.

And you are full of shit. They opperated as good as could be expected. They lacked sufficent ammo to actualy engage sustained combat, and their advesaries took heavy fire to kill.

[brianeyci]

Funny how its always the non-soldiers who rip Aliens.

I wasn't trying to "rip" aliens. You don't think that a professional soldier would have done better? Cameron's interview said he was interested specifically in depicting Vietnam. A lot of what happened seemed to be just stupidity to advance the plot.

Brian

[Kadaeux]

These were not supposed to be Elite troopers, they were little more than a Recon team to be honest, they had half of their arsenal denied them. An incompetant CO like most military units outside of special forces.

Their situation was not unlike Vietnam. They were fighting an enemy who used unconventional tactics in an unconventional enviroment.

Not to mention that fear has a horrendous effect on anyones performance, with a soldier it is merely more pronounced, some will go beserk and shoot in every direction at once while others will freeze and do stupid thing, like try to talk in the middle of a firefight over a mic..

The were scared shitless by an alien with acid blood that they didn't really beleive existed, despite Ripley...

[PREDATOR490]

They were ordered to disarm the weapons because they were close to a critical area which would cause a "thermonuclear" explosion if they started shooting.

When they first went in they didnt see the things in the wall cause that infested woman was doing the whole chest buster routine. Marines shoot her then the Xenos around them get the drop on them.

The guy who had the ammo and stuff ends up getting attacked and the munitions go off causing everything else to go to hell.

The APC got mangled while Riply was driving it out of the area and the leader guy was inexperienced. The Marines themselves didnt believe Riply at all so they werent exactly going to take her seriously until they got nice and friendly with the Xenos.

As for the Gormon "bullet resistant" alien, I thought that alien was pushing through the grail hence when he shoots it he hits the grail rather than the alien.

As for the Sentry Turrets, they aint in the original movie and I would think that not all the aliens got sent against the sentry drones. As for coming through the roof... well they probably assumed that aliens were "dumb animals" and that the roof wouldnt have a gap wide enough to fit them in. Another thing is that aliens were coming through the floor too.

The APC got destroyed when the Dropship pilot gets killed meaning they couldnt call for the other Dropship unless Bishop went to the base com unit. If they left the base and went outside they would leave Bishop on his own in an area where Xenos would probably kill him.

Bombardment of the area was out of the question cause Burke was pulling the Company strings saying they dont have the right to destroy a billion dollar facility. Not to mention that by the time the marines actually get to the point of this course of action they loose the dropship.

The main thing that forced them to go further was they thought Riply was crazy and exaggerating. They assumed it was a casual "get the civilians" mission and by the time they see the first infested woman... they get dropped on.

Overall, the marines were smart since they were trying to fight a battle where people like Burke and Gorman are screwing up and they are making presumptions about things that they really shouldnt be doing.

They are essentially thinking like soldiers who assume the enemy thinks like they do and hence blocking a door = they cant get in. Obviously not realising that Aliens are not just "dumb animals" and they dont think like human soldiers.

[brianeyci]

They only lost 2 people or so to that explossion.

I rented the DVD, Gorman's looking at the screen and eight EKG readings go out. I'm not sure whether they were all part of two men or eight separate men, I'll check later.

By the time they could consider this option, they lacked the manpower.

I think Vasquez or Hudson suggested it after the APC and they didn't mention they lacked manpower. How much manpower does it take to fire canisters of nerve gas. Nerve gas is supposed to be a force multipier. Their reason mentioned was "it probably wouldn't work on the aliens." How do they know, they could try it.

They lacked the ammo. And how did the Aliens get in? Simple, they used the prexisting holes to the structure (remember the rain water getting in?) and simply crawled about the ceiling.

I know they lacked ammunition, but there were 150 aliens and four turrets with 200 rounds each. Each of their rifles had 50 rounds each. And they had one working flamethrower (which they ended up not using for some reason when the aliens broke in).

These are soldiers. They think about what they primarily have to deal with. Such an intrusion is not their normal problem.

No, it's not, but Ripley was there and they spent a minute looking at the hole in the ground and in the ceiling... "if you like this you're gonna love this, looks like someone bagged one of Ripley's bad guys, acid for blood" and a huge hole in the ceiling.

Only one truly stupid charater. That was Gorman. And that was intentional on Burke's part.

Can you show that Burke intentionally found Gorman? I don't remember this... there was also "2 combat drops" so Gorman was not completely green. Would a military normally allow someone on the outside to pick personnel for a mission? And can you show Burke sent in only one squad and not the military choosing to send in one squad? (If the military sent in one squad to save 150 guys... incompetence).

And you are full of shit. They opperated as good as could be expected. They lacked sufficent ammo to actualy engage sustained combat, and their advesaries took heavy fire to kill.

I'm not trying to criticize real life soldiers so I don't know why you're pulling this soldiers are a sacred cow act. Why not address the main point that there were 150 aliens and they should have been able to handle them with the ammunition they had. It takes a single burst from one of their rifles to kill an alien.

Brian

[SylasGaunt]

Okay here's the math... one hundred and fifty colonists, one hundred and fifty aliens. Why couldn't they win?

You mean aside from being outnumbered, having lost most of their ammunition, being under the command of a completely green lieutenant, and having their mission deliberately sabotaged you mean?

They have ranged weapons, flamethrowers, an armored personnel vehicle, air support and motion detectors. I saw James Cameron's commentary that this was supposed to be about how low-technology defeats high-technology but it strains credibility.

And you notice they lost most of that.

Apone getting killed while tapping his microphone was particularly stupid,

Eh? The man was trying to get his orders, and a dark colored enemy, in a dark environment that was likewise full of smoke, night-vision destroying flashes of light, and tons of noise. Yeah it's real hard to miss a camoflaged enemy creeping up on him from the cieling.

as was some aliens being bullet resistant. Vasquez shot an alien point blank but Gorman does the same a minute later and the alien's just a little further away and doesn't get killed.

Vasquez practically had the gun pressed to the thing's head. However the other thing is that it was against a different part of the Alien's head (vasquez's was shot in the side of the head, the alien Gorman shot at was the front of his head). Then there's things like angle of impact and its effects on penetration.

Gorman and Vasquez were firing with their sidearms, but their rifles were firing "10 mm caseless armor piercing explosive rounds" so they should have had no problem chewing through the aliens.

Yeah because a pistol round will have the same power as a rifle round.

Especially the aliens trying to break through the turrets. Each turret had 200 rounds and they had 4 of them. How come the turrets didn't end up killing 150 aliens?

The simple fact that they didn't throw 150 aliens at the turrets? Not that the turrets would have stopped them since they were just shy of running out of ammo when the aliens finally decided to try finding another way around.

How come they didn't anticipate the aliens coming through the roof after the turrets held them off when in the beginning of the movie they make a big deal of looking at a hole in the roof for a minute, and in the lair they were ambushed from aliens hanging from the roof? Okay Ripley was calling the shots, but Vasquez was there too and she would have said something about the fuckers coming through the roof. My only thought is they were too stupid to think of it.

Because they'd barricaded the entrances to that section, including the ductwork. The aliens found a way around through, IIRC an entryway that wasn't in the plans.

[Kadaeux]

You are a fucking idiot.... Lets see you shoot at something you have trouble even seeing let alone is moving rapidly towards you, not to mention the terror of seeing such a creature moving towards you. Ammunition is not the bee all and end all, more than half their ammunition was wasted shooting at shadows, not to mention the weapons that didn't get recovered during the retreat or were destroyed from acid splash.

You are making their mistake of assuming the aliens were just dumb animals, they are fighting an unfamiliar enemy in an unfamiliar territory that the Aliens have had much more time to acclimatise to. The Aliens had the home advantage, the Marines were lucky to have anyone survive, even if it was only Ripley a little girl and half a combat synth...

[PREDATOR490]

They lacked the ammo. And how did the Aliens get in? Simple, they used the prexisting holes to the structure (remember the rain water getting in?) and simply crawled about the ceiling.

I know they lacked ammunition, but there were 150 aliens and four turrets with 200 rounds each. Each of their rifles had 50 rounds each. And they had one working flamethrower (which they ended up not using for some reason when the aliens broke in).

Using a flamethrower in a closed space would have been suicide and having a Xeno running around on fire would be equally dangerous. Using it in the duct may have been smart but by this time they are already being pushed back

These are soldiers. They think about what they primarily have to deal with. Such an intrusion is not their normal problem.

No, it's not, but Ripley was there and they spent a minute looking at the hole in the ground and in the ceiling... "if you like this you're gonna love this, looks like someone bagged one of Ripley's bad guys, acid for blood" and a huge hole in the ceiling.

That was Hicks... he was the only guy that actually seemed to believe Riply and being one of the "major characters" then its natural that hes gonna notice and survive the longest. He also said "looks like" not HAS. Which means it could easily have been something else in their frame of mind.
There was no body so no proof of absolute certainty.

And you are full of shit. They opperated as good as could be expected. They lacked sufficent ammo to actualy engage sustained combat, and their advesaries took heavy fire to kill.

I'm not trying to criticize real life soldiers so I don't know why you're pulling this soldiers are a sacred cow act. Why not address the main point that there were 150 aliens and they should have been able to handle them with the ammunition they had. It takes a single burst from one of their rifles to kill an alien.

Brian

A single burst may kill them but the Marines arent going to do single bursts especially in an enviroment where the fuckers are coming down all around them.
Its going to be ALOT more certain to put the fucker down so it cant move rather than give it a burst only to have the alien nail you with its last breath or spurt of acid.

[Kadaeux]

You are a fucking idiot.... Lets see you shoot at something you have trouble even seeing let alone is moving rapidly towards you, not to mention the terror of seeing such a creature moving towards you. Ammunition is not the bee all and end all, more than half their ammunition was wasted shooting at shadows, not to mention the weapons that didn't get recovered during the retreat or were destroyed from acid splash.

You are making their mistake of assuming the aliens were just dumb animals, they are fighting an unfamiliar enemy in an unfamiliar territory that the Aliens have had much more time to acclimatise to. The Aliens had the home advantage, the Marines were lucky to have anyone survive, even if it was only Ripley a little girl and half a combat synth...

[SylasGaunt]

I rented the DVD, Gorman's looking at the screen and eight EKG readings go out. I'm not sure whether they were all part of two men or eight separate men, I'll check later.

IIRC it was one screen per soldier with multiple readings on it.

I think Vasquez or Hudson suggested it after the APC and they didn't mention they lacked manpower. How much manpower does it take to fire canisters of nerve gas. Nerve gas is supposed to be a force multipier. Their reason mentioned was "it probably wouldn't work on the aliens." How do they know, they could try it.

THey had canisters that they would have had to get down to the hive and roll inside. Which means venturing back into the alien's lair to attempt to use the nerve gas that they aren't sure will even work.

I know they lacked ammunition, but there were 150 aliens and four turrets with 200 rounds each. Each of their rifles had 50 rounds each. And they had one working flamethrower (which they ended up not using for some reason when the aliens broke in).

Maybe it doesn't seem to work until you factor in the fact that neither the turrets nor the marines have perfect accuracy. stray rounds are going ot take up part of that. Then you have to factor in non-lethal hits, and overkill rounds to.

No, it's not, but Ripley was there and they spent a minute looking at the hole in the ground and in the ceiling... "if you like this you're gonna love this, looks like someone bagged one of Ripley's bad guys, acid for blood" and a huge hole in the ceiling.

A huge hole in the cieling outside the area they were holed up in and where they hadn't shot any xenos.

Can you show that Burke intentionally found Gorman? I don't remember this... there was also "2 combat drops" so Gorman was not completely green.

2 combat drops including the one they were doing. So he'd had one previous combat drop.. and that's drop. We have no idea what he actually had to deal with once they got on the ground, though obviously nothing too heavy given the way he froze up when things stopped going by the book.

Would a military normally allow someone on the outside to pick personnel for a mission?

In the Aliens universe yes. Weyland-Yutani has ungodly huge amounts of money to throw about.

And can you show Burke sent in only one squad and not the military choosing to send in one squad? (If the military sent in one squad to save 150 guys... incompetence).

You realize we're talking about the same man who caused the entire alien outbreak at the colony in the first place remember. The same one who was going to murder the marines in their cryosleep tubes and who personally escorted Gorman to meet Ripley.

I'm not trying to criticize real life soldiers so I don't know why you're pulling this soldiers are a sacred cow act. Why not address the main point that there were 150 aliens and they should have been able to handle them with the ammunition they had. It takes a single burst from one of their rifles to kill an alien.

You see soldiers do occasionally do this thing, it's called missing.

Furthermore both engagements they had with the aliens were in environments that mitigated much of the marine's advantages in ranged weaponry. In the hive you had a dark, smokey environment where everyone's night vision was getting consistantly fragged by muzzle flashes and they had to fight an opponent who was well camoflaged for that environment, and attacked in ways no human soldier could (i.e. dropping off the cieling).

The fight in command was filled with aliens only having to cross a few meters to get at the marines and being able to come down from the cieling, as well as up from the floor. In addition to that the entire room was full of assorted crap to give the aliens cover and concealment as they advanced.

[brianeyci]

You mean aside from being outnumbered, having lost most of their ammunition, being under the command of a completely green lieutenant, and having their mission deliberately sabotaged you mean?

Yes, they were outnumbered, but by melee fighters. The lieutenant wasn't completely green since he had one combat drop before that. And I don't remember Burke getting Gorman and only one squad on purpose (I am watching the legacy release edition).

And you notice they lost most of that.

Yes, but a lot through acts of plot or stupidity.

Eh? The man was trying to get his orders, and a dark colored enemy, in a dark environment that was likewise full of smoke, night-vision destroying flashes of light, and tons of noise. Yeah it's real hard to miss a camoflaged enemy creeping up on him from the cieling.

A sargeant would tap his headphones waiting for orders when there was interference? I expected the sargeant to take command and say "get the fuck out of there." Except if they were so micromanaged by the Lt, the micromanagement was part of their incompetence I think.

Vasquez practically had the gun pressed to the thing's head. However the other thing is that it was against a different part of the Alien's head (vasquez's was shot in the side of the head, the alien Gorman shot at was the front of his head). Then there's things like angle of impact and its effects on penetration.

Okay.

Gorman and Vasquez were firing with their sidearms, but their rifles were firing "10 mm caseless armor piercing explosive rounds" so they should have had no problem chewing through the aliens.

Yeah because a pistol round will have the same power as a rifle round.

The point is that their rifles should have had no problems chewing through aliens if pistols could shoot through them. And they didn't--we see Ripley take out aliens with one burst.

The simple fact that they didn't throw 150 aliens at the turrets? Not that the turrets would have stopped them since they were just shy of running out of ammo when the aliens finally decided to try finding another way around.

Why did the turrets waste all their ammunition if there weren't a lot of them? Plus Hicks saying "they were wall to wall." I am thinking it was more an act of plot to let the aliens survive the machine guns.

Because they'd barricaded the entrances to that section, including the ductwork. The aliens found a way around through, IIRC an entryway that wasn't in the plans.

Okay I can accept that too, but I would think that anybody after seeing the hole in the ceiling and ground would put two and two together later. Ripley saw this.

Brian

[Kadaeux]

OMFG Do you have any concept of people whatsoever, so they lose more than half there ammo. And that has to be a plot thing? SOLDIERS LOSE AMMO IN SNAFU Situations

If I could I would slap your seven ways stupid, sadly someone already has.

[SylasGaunt]

Yes, they were outnumbered, but by melee fighters. The lieutenant wasn't completely green since he had one combat drop before that. And I don't remember Burke getting Gorman and only one squad on purpose (I am watching the legacy release edition).

One combat drop yes, but not all combat experience is created equal. And just because he was in a hot combat drop doesn't mean anybody actually ended up shooting at him or his men.

Yes, but a lot through acts of plot or stupidity.

You mean one, because they lost almost all their gear in one particular incident (which was really just horrible luck on their part).

A sargeant would tap his headphones waiting for orders when there was interference? I expected the sargeant to take command and say "get the fuck out of there." Except if they were so micromanaged by the Lt, the micromanagement was part of their incompetence I think.

He was being given orders right then and there from what would be comparative safety given that anything that got to him would have to get past the two machine-gunners doing their level best to kill anything that so much as looked in the marine's direction.

And yay you've proven Gorman incompetent, tell us something we didn't already know.

The point is that their rifles should have had no problems chewing through aliens if pistols could shoot through them. And they didn't--we see Ripley take out aliens with one burst.

What is the point of this argument other than to restate that pulse rifles shouldn't (and don't) have any problems at all killing the aliens? We saw that they didn't.

Why did the turrets waste all their ammunition if there weren't a lot of them? Plus Hicks saying "they were wall to wall." I am thinking it was more an act of plot to let the aliens survive the machine guns.

We're talking about a simple robot gun, not anything all that sophisticated. It shoots until it runs out of targets.

Okay I can accept that too, but I would think that anybody after seeing the hole in the ceiling and ground would put two and two together later. Ripley saw this.

Except that none of them had shot any of them. For that idea to work they would have had to come up with the idea that the aliens might gut one of their own to make a hole, which we have no indication they ever did.

[TheBlackCat]

I think Vasquez or Hudson suggested it after the APC and they didn't mention they lacked manpower. How much manpower does it take to fire canisters of nerve gas. Nerve gas is supposed to be a force multipier. Their reason mentioned was "it probably wouldn't work on the aliens." How do they know, they could try it.

I gathered they couldn't use the nerve gas because they were there. I think the nerve gas was supposed to be used upon evacuating, like the nukes. The nerve gas is certainly more likely to kill them than the aliens. By the time they evacuated it was moot because the place was going to blow itself up anyway.

I know they lacked ammunition, but there were 150 aliens and four turrets with 200 rounds each. Each of their rifles had 50 rounds each. And they had one working flamethrower (which they ended up not using for some reason when the aliens broke in).

They weren't firing one round at a time. These things are machine guns, they hose anything that is moving until it stops moving. You saw how they handled the drum, each one fired several rounds, probably more, just at that one drum. They aren't smart enough to communicate and divide up targets, and they aren't smart enough to shoot one bullet into a foe and wait until it falls. They continue to shoot on full automatic as long as they detect targets.

No, it's not, but Ripley was there and they spent a minute looking at the hole in the ground and in the ceiling... "if you like this you're gonna love this, looks like someone bagged one of Ripley's bad guys, acid for blood" and a huge hole in the ceiling.

They may have believed she did see an alien, but they did not believe it was as dangerous as it really was. They went in thinking their technology would give them complete superiority and it didn't.

there was also "2 combat drops" so Gorman was not completely green.

1 combat drop, the second combat drop was the one he was currently involved in. I would say that is pretty green, especially considering he was expected to deal with a completely new and unexpected situation that he was obviously not trained to handle.

Would a military normally allow someone on the outside to pick personnel for a mission? And can you show Burke sent in only one squad and not the military choosing to send in one squad? (If the military sent in one squad to save 150 guys... incompetence).

The military did not take the threat posed by the aliens seriously, it appeared they assumed it was something simple and the mission apparently routine. I would not be suprised of the WY could request the amount of troops they wanted to check up on their colony. Burke, or someone else, may also have downplayed the severity of the issue or the likelyhood of the threat being real in order to guarantee nothing but a token force would be sent. Focusing on the value of the facility could have guaranteed a liutenant who would stick very hard to the rules (which of course would be a disaster given that the rules were obviously not suited to such a mission).

Why not address the main point that there were 150 aliens and they should have been able to handle them with the ammunition they had. It takes a single burst from one of their rifles to kill an alien.

The aliens were coming at them from all directions, including above and below. In the hive battle they were unprepared and spread out, things got so chaotic so quickly and they were cut off from their chain of command so they couldn't regroup to organize a proper defense. In the command center they simply lacked the manpower to set up a proper defensive formation and the aliens could eliminate the advantage of their weapons by getting very close below ground or above the ceiling before they could be shot.

Brian[/quote]

[Stofsk]

Okay here's the math... one hundred and fifty colonists, one hundred and fifty aliens. Why couldn't they win?

Plus livestock. The aliens can use the livestock too.

They have ranged weapons, flamethrowers,

Which would be suicide to use indoors.

an armored personnel vehicle,

Which isn't applicable given they needed to get out on foot to travel into the hive.

air support

Again, not applicable given they needed to enter the hive on foot, and it's under the fusion reactor.

Remember, at this stage of the plot, they don't even know the aliens are down there. They're trying to rescue the colonists.

and motion detectors.

And as we saw in the movie, there are limits to such technology. The motion detectors tell you when something is moving towards you, but it uses a 2d display that doesn't tell you whether or not the target is above you or below you. That was how the aliens could get so close to them by crawling along the walls, ceiling, floors etc.

And a note about the nerve gas: those things are tailored to human and animal biology, or perhaps just human - who knows? - but in any case, that whole council of war scene was supposed to ask "What do we do now?" They toyed with the idea of going in and saving their comrades, or using the gas as a retaliation, until Ripley said "You can't save them. They're being harvested as we speak." At that point, Hicks decides to take off and nuke the place from orbit, given that the plan had changed in light of current developments. It had ceased being a 'rescue the colonists' mission, and into a withdraw to the strategic highground.

When they called in the dropship to pick them up, it crashed into the APC and destroyed most of their shit. Which I assume included the nerve gas. Which we also don't know if it would have worked at all. They certainly weren't going to use the gas before they went into the hive, as they were in there to rescue the colonists; afterwards the plan was to get off the planet and nuke the whole facility. When the dropship crashed into the APC they lost the gas anyway.

[Kadaeux]

brianeyci wrote:
I know they lacked ammunition, but there were 150 aliens and four turrets with 200 rounds each. Each of their rifles had 50 rounds each. And they had one working flamethrower (which they ended up not using for some reason when the aliens broke in).

They weren't firing one round at a time. These things are machine guns, they hose anything that is moving until it stops moving. You saw how they handled the drum, each one fired several rounds, probably more, just at that one drum. They aren't smart enough to communicate and divide up targets, and they aren't smart enough to shoot one bullet into a foe and wait until it falls. They continue to shoot on full automatic as long as they detect targets.

Also the fact that they were motion sensor targeting, the aliens blood eating through the floors would have provided a consistent target as it was "moving"

[PREDATOR490]

And you notice they lost most of that.

Yes, but a lot through acts of plot or stupidity.

When the first person got attacked it was someone with a flamethrower wasnt it ? She gets nailed and lets rip with the flamethrower all round. Eventually coming round on the ammunition and the other marines.
Thats not stupidity since if you get jumped your gonna get scared shitless and this is with an alien ripping into them.

Eh? The man was trying to get his orders, and a dark colored enemy, in a dark environment that was likewise full of smoke, night-vision destroying flashes of light, and tons of noise. Yeah it's real hard to miss a camoflaged enemy creeping up on him from the cieling.

A sargeant would tap his headphones waiting for orders when there was interference? I expected the sargeant to take command and say "get the fuck out of there." Except if they were so micromanaged by the Lt, the micromanagement was part of their incompetence I think.

Gormon was yabbering on like a total idiot giving orders so it wansnt just interference. The guy was trying to listen to the orders which if your a soldier you are trained to do since for all the guy knew Gormon would be telling him hes about to ram the APC through the rear wall.
If he didnt listen then theres a very real possibility he could miss information or an order that could save their lives.
Saying "Get the fuck out of here" is relatively pointless unless you know where to "get the fuck out"
Riply had to crash through the wall to give them a proper escape route.

Gorman and Vasquez were firing with their sidearms, but their rifles were firing "10 mm caseless armor piercing explosive rounds" so they should have had no problem chewing through the aliens.

Yeah because a pistol round will have the same power as a rifle round.

The point is that their rifles should have had no problems chewing through aliens if pistols could shoot through them. And they didn't--we see Ripley take out aliens with one burst.

Its Ripley who happens to be an expert with these things and isnt as shocked at meeting them. Hence the marines are trained to shoot till it stops moving. Ripley is good with the aim and controlled fire however its not as if she actually had much combat until she goes back in. Something which is different cause she went in with a full inventory of ammo.

The simple fact that they didn't throw 150 aliens at the turrets? Not that the turrets would have stopped them since they were just shy of running out of ammo when the aliens finally decided to try finding another way around.

Why did the turrets waste all their ammunition if there weren't a lot of them? Plus Hicks saying "they were wall to wall." I am thinking it was more an act of plot to let the aliens survive the machine guns.

I thought these Sentry turrets were motion based ? Meaning if the slightest movement sets them off then even a falling alien who is already dead will cause them to fire. Hence they run out very quickly. Not counting the possibility that the aliens were knocking random stuff as they charged etc.

Because they'd barricaded the entrances to that section, including the ductwork. The aliens found a way around through, IIRC an entryway that wasn't in the plans.

Okay I can accept that too, but I would think that anybody after seeing the hole in the ceiling and ground would put two and two together later. Ripley saw this.

Brian

Ripley saw this after realising the tracker was showing them still coming, so its not as if she is particularily bright either. They caught on pretty fast after she did.

[Stofsk]

When the first person got attacked it was someone with a flamethrower wasnt it ? She gets nailed and lets rip with the flamethrower all round. Eventually coming round on the ammunition and the other marines.

Thats not stupidity since if you get jumped your gonna get scared shitless and this is with an alien ripping into them.

Actually I would say that is stupidity, given that Gormon should have ordered the marines back to the APC to change ammunition. Going into a crowded interior with a weapon like a flamethrower invites the kind of 'whoops' moments that you type about. She shouldn't have had a flamer, and if she hadn't gotten spooked she wouldn't have torched PVT Frost, who was carrying all the ammo. Which then exploded, killing a couple other marines.

But that was GORMON's stupidity. And we already knew he was fucking dumb as dogshit.

[PREDATOR490]

She didnt just get spooked she got lifted straight off the deck and knowing aliens shes gonna have a pair of jaws going through the back of her neck.
Its likely that its a death reaction you see where she grips the trigger. As for using the flamers... yeah that was stupid but it would have taken time to go back and change, and they still didnt realise what they were up against.

Gormon is the real source of the problem, if he had let Ripley do what she did faster then alot more would have been saved possibly.

The only other major concern for marine stupidity is the pilots on the dropship. That was pretty silly but understandable since they were a distance a way from where the fighting was going on.