Heavy Gear vs Battletech.

[weemadando]

Just looking to get a comparison of abilities from the two universes to decide which is:

a) most realistic (yeah, a stretch I know)

b) most powerful

c) most advanced

[Stark]

Aren't Heavy Gears power-assisted suits running off internal combustion engines? They seem to be much, much smaller than BT mechs.

[weemadando]

Yeah, but as a counter - the HG weapons tend to have realistic ranges, decent armour penetration as well as a realistic quantity of armour on the Gears themselves.

[Hotfoot]

No, Gears are not power-assist. They're MUCH smaller than mechs, but the pilots are still just that. Pilots. They sit in the chest cavity and control everything with joysticks, waldos, and other controls.

That said, I'll go through the list:

1. Most Realistic: HEAVY GEAR - The robots aren't three-story tall engines of ridiculous destruction. They're halfway between infantry and LAVs. Not terribly realistic, but much more so than Battletech. It should be noted that tanks, using the same level of tech as the mechs, utterly destroy the mechs. However, the Gears are cheaper, which makes them viable.

2. Most Powerful: Heavy Gear - Even the light rifle carried by the lightest of Gears outranges anything fielded by the Battletech side, and can arguable do damage (hell, if a .50 cal machinegun can tear up a BT Mech, the 20mm autocannons Gears use should do a number on them). Add to that the fact that tanks in HG are not gimped like they are in BT, and the battle will be over quite fast.

3. Most Advanced: Ehhh, tough question. In some ways, I suppose BT is more advanced, but in the end, I'd give it to Heavy Gear. Their genetic manipulation technology is clearly superior to that of BT (Clan Warriors vs. GRELS and SLEDGE), military tech as well. Arguably power generation technology goes to BT, as they can put fusion reactors in their mechs. Can't really make a ruling on the FTL tech, since both universe have vastly different systems defined by the nature of the phenomenon that allow such travel. STL speeds seem to go to the favor of BT, but I don't have numbers on that. Meanwhile, in space combat in HG, everything relies on tossing boatloads of nukes at the enemy from very far away, a tactic which I doubt BT has an adequate defense against.

[Stark]

And they can go prone and skate! However, mecha fans *like* the improbable size, poor design, and spam of unguided missiles that is BT, so noones going to say anything nice about HG.

[Gunhead]

HG is bit more realistic in my book. Their tech works pretty much like it would in RL, and fewer future fantastic explanations are required. Then again making something more realistic than BT is not that hard.

Tech wise I'm leaning heavily in favor of HG. From the top of my head the only areas I'd give BT the advantage is FTL travel and FTL comm.
HG doesn't to my knowledge have any means of sending messages at FTL speeds.

-Gunhead

[Gunhead]

The average Gear is 4-5m tall and BT mechs are about 10-12m tall.
These are not 100% accurate figures, but are closen enough in general.

-Gunhead

[weemadando]

Last night, out of sheer boredom I built the equivalent of a modern MBT using the Heavy Gear books which have been squatting at my house for a few years (the owner has never reclaimed them).

The vehicle had a heavy rail gun main gun, 2 Medium Autocannons as co-ax and hull mounted and 2 Light anti-aircraft cannons as automated/pintlemount systems for commander/loader guns. It also had the capacity for fire AT missiles.

Its armour was high end (34 in game terms) and movement was at about 65km/h.

It had redundancies out the wazoo. Up-armoured turret and a bunch of other bits and pieces.

The offensive threat value was hideously skewed however. 62,000 or so, with me forgetting to calculate the ammo load into that...

However. On the battlefield - that tank would be able to take apart any Gear or Strider from beyond the Gears effective range and with minimal risk of damage to itself.

[Nephtys]

2. Most Powerful: Heavy Gear - Even the light rifle carried by the lightest of Gears outranges anything fielded by the Battletech side, and can arguable do damage (hell, if a .50 cal machinegun can tear up a BT Mech, the 20mm autocannons Gears use should do a number on them). Add to that the fact that tanks in HG are not gimped like they are in BT, and the battle will be over quite fast.

Please, none of that garbage again. A Mech scale machine gun is a 20 caliber cannon configured for short range. Even the lightest Mechs resist AC-2 fire, which is a high velocity 20-40mm autocannon like rock resists rain.

A gear weigh what? Seventeen tons or so? I don't know much about the theme to make a real judgement either way, but I don't think anything that size can withstand automatic 180mm cannon bursts.

[LordShaithis]

I don't even know what Heavy Gear is, but if they're equal or superior to WW1 forces then they'll whip Battletech.

[Nephtys]

I don't even know what Heavy Gear is, but if they're equal or superior to WW1 forces then they'll whip Battletech.

Again. Don't even start. It's mentioned in newer canon that the reduced ranges are from a heavy ECM environment and the maneuverability of the mechs, as well as situational awareness provided. Mechs can also again, resist modern tank cannon fire without notable damage, or (at the very lower limit) a decent HEAT round.

[weemadando]

I hear what you're saying, but all I can hear is:

"Bitch bitch, whine whine, no evidence."

[VF5SS]

And they can go prone and skate! However, mecha fans *like* the improbable size, poor design, and spam of unguided missiles that is BT, so noones going to say anything nice about HG.

Ug I hate how Gears are just a huge ripoff of Armored Troopers from VOTOMS. It is so sad.

[Enigma]

Would it be better to pit the HG against the Wanzers from the Front Missions series of games?

[18-Till-I-Die]

Personally i love Heavy Gear and VOTOMS. Though i know dick about the technical aspects, i know a lot about the actual series and universes though. Its really fascinating, and some of the more 'realistic' mass produced mecha designs, 'tank mechs' as i call them. They're mechas, but they're treated like fancy tanks instead of magic giant uber machines of UNLIMITED POWAH!!1!11!

No 'special attacks', just good old fashion huge fucking cannons and missiles. Its not flashy, but oddly enough, it doesnt get boring when well done.

[Chris OFarrell]

I don't even know what Heavy Gear is, but if they're equal or superior to WW1 forces then they'll whip Battletech.

Again. Don't even start. It's mentioned in newer canon that the reduced ranges are from a heavy ECM environment and the maneuverability of the mechs, as well as situational awareness provided. Mechs can also again, resist modern tank cannon fire without notable damage, or (at the very lower limit) a decent HEAT round.

No at the very lower limit is a shell with about as much penetration as an RPG-7 given the equivilance in steel the shell was said to penetrate (about 33cm IIRC). The next generation M829E3 sabot round in prototyping is said to be able to penetrate close to 1000 cm RHA equivilant.

So no.

[Stark]

And they can go prone and skate! However, mecha fans *like* the improbable size, poor design, and spam of unguided missiles that is BT, so noones going to say anything nice about HG.

Ug I hate how Gears are just a huge ripoff of Armored Troopers from VOTOMS. It is so sad.

Am i rite!?!//?!

I'm going to question the effectiveness of HG weapons vs BT. I've only played the games (if there is anything else), but I don't recall any hugely impressive feats by HG weapons. Given the scale difference, I'm not sure how useful weapons like the bazooka are going to be, when the projectile is so slow.

I'm not one way or the other: I prefer HG as a game, but we need to establish a basis for comparison.

[Sea Skimmer]

Again. Don't even start. It's mentioned in newer canon that the reduced ranges are from a heavy ECM environment and the maneuverability of the mechs, as well as situational awareness provided. Mechs can also again, resist modern tank cannon fire without notable damage, or (at the very lower limit) a decent HEAT round.

ECM? You can see and engage an enemy vehicle with a telescopic sight at multi kilometer ranges; its how tanks and anti tank fought before they even had electronics for ranging or sighting or fire control. Battletech armor piercing shot is also described as a big steel slug, firing steel shot at over 4000fps against real life face hardened armor will simply result in the shot shattering, its why tungsten and depleted uranium are used.

[Hotfoot]

2. Most Powerful: Heavy Gear - Even the light rifle carried by the lightest of Gears outranges anything fielded by the Battletech side, and can arguable do damage (hell, if a .50 cal machinegun can tear up a BT Mech, the 20mm autocannons Gears use should do a number on them). Add to that the fact that tanks in HG are not gimped like they are in BT, and the battle will be over quite fast.

Please, none of that garbage again. A Mech scale machine gun is a 20 caliber cannon configured for short range. Even the lightest Mechs resist AC-2 fire, which is a high velocity 20-40mm autocannon like rock resists rain.

Last I checked, Machineguns were canonically arrays of .50 caliber (12.3mm) machineguns. Meanwhile, let's not go into BT Autocannons which magically defy all we know about ballistics and physics.

A gear weigh what? Seventeen tons or so? I don't know much about the theme to make a real judgement either way, but I don't think anything that size can withstand automatic 180mm cannon bursts.

Gears are smaller and faster than mechs, essentially just between protomechs and elementals. They might not be able to stand up to Mech main guns, but the mech would be hard-pressed to HIT them in the first place. Meanwhile, the mechs are easy targets for pretty much every Gear/HGTank gun. Not to mention that HG has air support and artillery support that works.

[weemadando]

Indeed - Hotfoot, what book can I find the rules for building aircraft in?

[Hotfoot]

If you buy the new Silhouette Core Rules (Deluxe edition for the win), you can build anything from spaceships to bicycles.

It's a unified system, and it works out pretty well.

[Nephtys]

We've all discussed this before. Long before.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... battletech

Again. It makes many points. The Btech Ranges are due to mech maneuverability and ECM at ground level, which is why Aerotech rules have ranges in atmosphere at far higher. Also, situational awareness, taking cover and evasion play a role because the game is an abstraction. That's why ranges are also short even visually.

50 cal machine gun thing has been overruled by later canon in some cases (New PXH model), with light cannons.

Battletech armor piercing shot is also described as a big steel slug, firing steel shot at over 4000fps against real life face hardened armor will simply result in the shot shattering, its why tungsten and depleted uranium are used.

Blah blah, blah. Steel slug doesn't mean a thing. It could be the main part of the composition, or ferro-steel as commonly mentioned in BT. They certainly work in BT, which has superior armor to today in the canon (Again, pointing to the Mackie test)

Whatever. Everything here's been discussed above.[/quote]

[Ford Prefect]

And they can go prone and skate!

Skating in Heavy Gear may just be the best thing ever. Zooming around and ramming them till they give up! is always fun. No mech of any kind should be without the ability to skate. Or ride around on a flying surfboard, but I digress.

Actually, is there any indication of how tough plasteel (or whatever the upper level metal in Heavy Gear was called) actually is?

[Hotfoot]

In the main game books and the technical manuals, they grade weapon penetration in relation to a specific sort of steel. Armor ratings are also converted to a similar scale. However, I do not have the references in front of me at this time.

[LordShaithis]

Blah blah blah, wank wank wank, mechs look much tougher after I explain away 85% of all BT material

You know, I've actually read a fair number of BT books, and I don't recall engagements being fought from any greater range than game mechanics would imply.