WH40K vs Star Wars

[Balrog]

I just recall watching a few movies, and noting that the Storm Troopers, despite being the Emporer's Elite, can't shoot for shit. Leia gets hit twice I believe (in "A New Hope" and "Return of the Jedi"), and she only faints once, and gets a burn on her arm. Hardly high power weaponary.

Well the first time she got shot the Troopers had set their guns to STUN, the second time she was only grazed. If you don't think Blasters are powerful, how did Han take out hugh chunks of the landing bay in ANH with his little pistol? How did a single shot completely vaporize metal grating? How do blaster shots leave gapping, burning holes in the walls in Cloud City?

As for Starwars ship range, I haven't actually seen them shoot at anything other than close range. At the battle of Endor, for example, all the ships are intermixed. How did they even get that close?
Or the battle of Coruscant (sp?). Everything is up close.

At Endor it was the Rebels that were closing with the Imperial Fleet, to avoid getting vaporized by the DS; at Coruscant the Seperatists were trying to flee with Palapatine and the Republic Navy was physically preventing them from going Hyperspace. EU gives us a sense of the range of their weaponry.

And the huge power of turbo-lasers seems to be pathetic, considering it can't completely vapourise a droid (The Phantom Menace).

Except, of course, the Trade Federation wanted the Queen alive and was only picking off the little R2 droids to prevent them from repairing the shields (speaks highly of their accuracy though); it wouldn't do to hit her ship with a very powerful blast.

So I don't know how you are meant to know what the highest setting is. Or why they fight at short range (Han Solo getting attacked by TIE fighters, "He's nearly in range").

A camera trick, someone has a link to the web page that discusses this...?

[Ghost Rider]

I just recall watching a few movies, and noting that the Storm Troopers, despite being the Emporer's Elite, can't shoot for shit. Leia gets hit twice I believe (in "A New Hope" and "Return of the Jedi"), and she only faints once, and gets a burn on her arm. Hardly high power weaponary.

Ah, the classic "I'll take the lowest end examples and forget what Han's Blaster and Stormies blaster did in Star Wars."

As for Starwars ship range, I haven't actually seen them shoot at anything other than close range. At the battle of Endor, for example, all the ships are intermixed. How did they even get that close?
Or the battle of Coruscant (sp?). Everything is up close.

We call it jamming. We use it in current technology.

And the huge power of turbo-lasers seems to be pathetic, considering it can't completely vapourise a droid (The Phantom Menace).

Again, see remark #1.

But all of this can be discounted by:
They choose to fight at close range.
Their weapons are not on their highest setting.

No, dumbass

We call it JAMMING(y'know the same thing we do so missle aren't used at max range to hit us...gosh what a concept!!!!!!!!)

You and grasping what the meaning of high and low end aren't bed partners?

So I don't know how you are meant to know what the highest setting is. Or why they fight at short range (Han Solo getting attacked by TIE fighters, "He's nearly in range").

Wow, using a frieghter's range against a fighter as definition of range. Reminds me of another idiot who clings to that fallacy for range.

[Connor MacLeod]

I will point out that most of the other 40Kers, unlike mr defanatic, are NOT participating in this discussion, mainly because its been done to death (and there are a fair number of SD.net 40Kers around.) Its been discussed before (hence the links to previous threads) and all the various permutations I am aware of have been discussed. 40K abilities have been pretty well defined. It generally comes out this way:

1.) In space: 40K firepower is (Depending on the references) at best equal to Imperial firepower, but probably less (just how much less again varies, but its probably no less than several OOM below SW firepower, and probably more like an OOM or less difference, for the most part.)

Even assuming "all things equal" the Empire still has a hideously greater construction rate than most factions in 40K (that I am aware of at least.) That fact alone sort of dooms alot of WH40K forces.

2.) The ground: 40Ker forces generally have individually superior ground troops. An IoM space marine is undoubtably stronger and tougher than a stomrtrooper or clonetrooper, and has potentially as much if not more raw firepower available from personal weapons. However, Sw troops still have access to firepower sufficient to hurt 40K troopers, , and in gneeral they have a greater range.

On the other hand, vehicles don't seem substantially better either way (*maybe* slight advantage to SW side in some respects.)

The real killer on the ground goes back to #1 - Star Wars space superiority. You see, once the Imperial warships have cleared away the 40K forces on the ground (those that occupy ground, that is) their own troops have orbital fire support.

3.) The supernatural - with some (rare) exceptions and circumstances, ,40K generally has far MORE supernatural forces at its command than the Empire, ,and some (if not most) are as good or better than what is available to SW (esp the Empire.) It gives them an edge in some respects, but generally its not enough to offset 1 or 2 by any great margin (especially when 1 leads to high-ground support for 2)(

There are some unknowns still debated - chaos and its effect (if any) on the Empire - to what extent the influence exerts, etc.. etc. etc.

With the exception of some "uber" examples (like hte Necrons, I think, and perhaps Chaos in full-tilt) SW probably wins against 40K in most respects, with casualties and losses varying depending on the variables you utilized (ground tactics, equipment available, etc.)

[defanatic]

So how about a different tack?

Rather than the two main guys (Imperium and Empire)...

the Hutts vs Dark Eldar?

Has that one been done? What are the combat capabilities of the Hutts?
I am assuming no warships (Dark Eldar have them, and I haven't seen any for the Hutts, but correct me on this)
Dark Eldar: Fast guys, naturally adept at most forms of combat
More Jump-Pack dudes (the Hutts had one, who died)
Numbers? Commorragh is a big place, and you pretty much have most of the population to draw from.

Hutts: Blasters pack one hell of a punch.
Blasters' effective range (apparently) is quite long
Hard to dicern mercs from civilians a lot of the time (not that Dark Eldar care, but it can be an advantage)

They are both merc sort of forces (Dark Eldar will actually act as mercenaries, but betray their erstwhile allies at the last moment), and they are both equal opportunity employers . They also use skiffs.
What would happen?

[18-Till-I-Die]

Uh the Hutts are a large-ish interstellar Empire.

You mean Jabba's personal feifdom i think. Which was that desert planet (was that Tattooine? i forget) and his own men. The Hutts do have spaceships and have for thousands of years, they used to have dozens or hundreds of worlds also. 'Hutt Space'.

Their Empire collapsed over the centuries, as i understand it, though. So they would indeed have spaceships.

However they're one of the smaller SW civilizations. So it may indeed be a rather even match up. I dont know exactly what the Hutt spaceships are like, only that they must have had them because they used to have an interstellar kingdom/crime empire/thing.

[defanatic]

Well... What I know about the Hutts:
They cared for nothing of Old Republic Law
They smuggled things (like slaves, and illicit drugs)
So they must have had smuggling ships... But since we have no hard data, we can forget space combat (suddenly, the Hutts had their eight Eclipse class Star Destroyers, and three death stars, woe unto any who opposed them!). Since we know what mercs are equipped with (blasters, blaster pistols etc. and skiffs), and what Dark Eldar ground forces are armed with (splinter rifles (hundreds of toxic projectiles from a Gauss Gun like mechanism), Dark Lances (dark matter weapon), splinter cannons (like splinter rifles, but bigger, faster firing and has gyroscopic stabiliers) to name a few), we can see what ground combat would have been.

Umm... Dark Eldar combat capabilities. Their basic infantry (for those who do not know) is armed with a splinter rifle, and wears slightly better than flak armour. They are extremely good shots, have fast reactions, and are skilled in unarmed/hand to hand combat (this rarely happens in StarWars, Jedi notwithstanding).

[apocolypse]

Wow, using a frieghter's range against a fighter as definition of range. Reminds me of another idiot who clings to that fallacy for range.

Actually, wasn't the "he's almost in range" comment right after Han was talking about jamming it? IIRC I went back and rewatched the scene some time ago, and could have swore Han was talking about comms jamming and not weapons range. I could be remembering incorrectly, it was some time back.

[Ghost Rider]

Wow, using a frieghter's range against a fighter as definition of range. Reminds me of another idiot who clings to that fallacy for range.

Actually, wasn't the "he's almost in range" comment right after Han was talking about jamming it? IIRC I went back and rewatched the scene some time ago, and could have swore Han was talking about comms jamming and not weapons range. I could be remembering incorrectly, it was some time back.

It implies it because he has no idea where it's coming from. Given what we saw just before of their sensor range with the ISDs, it was funny to have the TIE come out of nowhere and Han to go "WTF?"

[defanatic]

Um... I changed the subject.

[Ghost Rider]

Um... I changed the subject.

Look to what I am responding.

[Noble Ire]

So they must have had smuggling ships... But since we have no hard data, we can forget space combat (suddenly, the Hutts had their eight Eclipse class Star Destroyers, and three death stars, woe unto any who opposed them!). Since we know what mercs are equipped with (blasters, blaster pistols etc. and skiffs),

Just because your unfamiliar with Hutt military strength doens't mean it's non-existant. Their Fleet coordination and size is relatively unknown (enough to control from 200 to 1000 or so populated worlds) but they do have warships, old Republican vessels, privately made attack ships, merc fighters, pirate and slaver vessels. Some, like Hutt Dreadnaughts and Lanowar Assualt Cruisers are multikilometer. As for ground armament, they probably have a hodgepodge of old military vehicles (I recall mention of AT-ATs on a Hutt world during the NJO) and their mercinaries and body guards would probably have a wide variety of blasters, incendiaries, and even contraband disruptors (which are highly destructive, even against light armor.)

[WhiteLion]

I noticed that a lot of info on 40k is wrong, I'm not a fan of a particular series and I approached 40k recently, but I can summarize a few points about weapons and ships. In 40k brute force is exalted, in everything and without the slightest realism, like spectacularity rather than realism.

Weapons:
Macrocannons: data available only on those of the 5 km cruisers, 50x150 meter bullets and thousands of tons heavy at relativistic speeds are fired, they have a power of 42 exajoules per shot (more than 10 gigatons per shot) and each ship has up to over 60 macrocannoni. A single trip of a Retribution class can tear a continent to pieces. There are bombardment macrocannons and classes of superior ships that reach 4 times bigger dimensions and others like those of the glorian classes or Abyss to the size of whole smaller ships.

Lances: Energy weapons powered by the ship's main reactor that measures power in "Stars" and not in joules or watts. They are able to pierce the adamantium and if at maximum power they can explode a planet, example is the planet Nostramo destroyed with a broadside of spears at the maximum power of a single ship.

Hellfire missiles: Each missile has 122 nuclear heads of 5 gigatons each for a total of 610 gigantic missiles, each cruiser has many missile launchers.

Torpedoes: a single high potential cyclonic torpedo is able to blow up a planet like the Death Star (for example in the canon novel "Night Lords" to destroy a ship hiding behind a moon they launched a single cyclonic torpedo in the middle potential reducing pieces of moon and ship).
Each ship equipped with a torpedo launcher can launch them, even a small Cobra Destroyer, a save is made up of 6-8 torpedoes at the same time and can be launched more salvos in a row. Only one ship per save shoots 6-8 times the fire power of the Death Star and does not have a long recharge time. imagine a fleet of 100 small and maneuverable 800 meter ships capable of launching salvos from 4 high potential cyclonic torpedoes.

Collision: Each ship has a thick armor from several tens of meters to several hundred meters of adamantium, a sharp-edged bow in even thicker adamantium and more layers of void shields. As we see in Horus Heresy a simple fuel transport launched itself at relativistic speed and vaporized everything it touched, several ships were vaporized before the shields gave way and several ships were vaporized before the shieldless armor gave way, it was a simple transport, not a battleship. In Star Wars, the Mega Star Destroyer and several Star Destroyers were destroyed by a single collision of a ship far less armored and sharper than any 40k ship.

Shields: SW shields are powerful but not equal to 40k. the Super Star Destroyer saw its shields collapse under the fire of the rebel army that was not very powerful then, the Dreadnought in Episode 9 was completely destroyed by a single bomber on the first attack. The shields of the vacuum instead support the direct fire of weapons capable of destroying entire continents, and support multiple impacts at relativistic speeds before collapsing, we speak of immense energies with respect to the blows that make the Star Wars shields collapse.

Travel: On the level of driving systems instead Star wars is clearly superior, performance and safety outclass warhammer.

Number of Ships: Honestly seeing the numbers are the same, both universes have millions of worlds and large fleets.

This for the spaceships, I don't have the knowledge to contribute in a constructive way on the earth forces.

Moreover from canon the weapons of Star wars have a much inferior capacity to that of 40k, and they are in the scale of the megaton, those of 40k are in the scale of the gigaton and the most powerful measure the power as capable of destroying continents or entire planets with each blow.e to contribute in a constructive way on the earth forces.

[NecronLord]

Again, thread bump is not appropriate.