WH40K vs Star Wars

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WH40K vs Star Wars

Post by defanatic » 2005-09-14 11:37pm

This was posted in the 40k forums, so I was wondering how it would fare (or fair?) here.

Over there, the general consensus was that the Imperium from Warhammer 40,000 would deal a can of whoop-ass (I wouldn't use that term, but it was in fifty ways to annoy your opponent (Use the word whoop-ass as many times as you can in your army list)) on the Imperials. For those of you who would like to participate, but don't know much about the Warhammer 40K universe, you can go here for more info.

I also saw in the "Star Wars vs Star Trek" forum how the other side would have done in a certain situation (e.g. Would the federation's Fleet do in the Battle of Coruscant). So...

How would the Imperial Guard have done in, say, defending the shield station on Endor?

WH40K Pros: - Lasguns are lethal up to six hundred metres, and their 'projectiles' are made up of light. Blaster 'projectiles' go slower than sound. Would have made Leia's arm non-functional when it hit.
- Imperial Guard can hit the broad side of a barn on ocassions.
- Sentinels are common, and heavily armoured compared to ATST walkers
- Imperial Guard have a number of heavy and short ranged weapons that would assist in forest warfare (flamethrowers come to mind).
- There are a lot more Imperial Guard defending a shield station than storm troopers. Almost certainly, such an important installation would have several hundred metres of cleared area around the shield generators.
- If this were the case, ewoks wouldn't have even come close.
- Imperial Guard Flak Armour can stop rocks and arrows
- Many Imperial Guard wear camoflauge, unlike the snow-white storm troopers

Starwars Pros over this?[/url]
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Post by 18-Till-I-Die » 2005-09-15 12:01am

The Empire has 25,000 Imperial Star Destroyers capable of, each, destroying the ENTIRE surface of a planet. More so, they have perhaps hundreds, i'd think thousands more likely, of SSDs which are powerful enough to make an ISD look like a coast guard ship. A handful of SSDs, such as the Eclipse and IIRC the Sovereign class, are outfitted with small superlasers capable of cracking a planet's crust. They also have IIRC about 10 million + ships, all of much smaller and less powerful class but still an overwhelming number.

Compared to this, i beleive the IoM has only some tens of thousands of ships, fewer perhaps than even the Empire's main Star Destroyer fleet and certainly smaller than the larger Imperial Starfleet as a whole.

Empire shields can withstand teraton and petaton bombardments, for ISDs and SSDs multi-petaton, meaning even the heaviest IoM vessel will have problems downing their big ships, and their smaller ships are i would think about equal but far, far more numerous.

The IoM warp drives require weeks sometimes months to reach a target system, and are EXTREMELY temperamental. On the other hand Imperial hyperdrives are very safe and as seen in ROTS allow for travel over vast distances, across the galaxy even, in a few hours or days.

If the Empire gets superweapons they might have any of the following depending on the Era:

1-Suncrusher capable of destroying entire starsystems, small as a large fighter, armoured enough to survive a planet-killing energy blast.

2-Death Stars each with millions of times the firepower of a ISD (which could melt a world's surface mind you) and each with a superlaser more powerful than a star capable of reducing a planet to a difuse asteroid belt in seconds.

A Fleet of World Devastators which can reporoudce and manufacture whole fleets and armies of robot soliders and fighters and do it all whiel litereally eating your planet.

1-Galaxy Gun which can destroy a planet with a powerful molecular dissassembly warhead, from across the galaxy.


On the ground i would see it as far more even...maybe even with the IoM winning eventually. ON THE GROUND. But it will never get that far because the Empire will simply buzz in, blast the vital worlds, and be done with it in a matter of hours or at most days.


If i made any huge mistakes then feel free to correct me, but that's generally the rundown of the most common Imperial forces. It's the general consensus that while the 40K ships are about equal in terms of firepower to the Empire's they lack the sheer overwhelming numbers and heavy shields. Plus the IoM lacks most superweapons.
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Post by Ghost Rider » 2005-09-15 12:04am

Okay for response I give you

This

Click it, and witness what we honestly do think of it after a while. It cover animmense amount of ground.

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Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba » 2005-09-15 12:10am

This thread comes along about what- once a month? Less or more?

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Post by Ghost Rider » 2005-09-15 12:11am

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:This thread comes along about what- once a month? Less or more?
It seems that way but I'd say around every two~three months....easily.
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Post by defanatic » 2005-09-15 12:11am

I don't know really. Star Wars ships are woefully lacking in range (apart from the "galaxy gun", which I haven't spotted in any of the movies), while IoM ships have a massive range (30,000 km or more).

I also find it hard to believe that a star destroyer has the capability to melt a planet's surface in a short period of time, as it has trouble defeating (possibly inferior) rebel capital ships.

And I was also referring to replacing the Empire with the Imperium for certain situations (like, for example, the Battle of Endor). In cases such as those, they would never meet. When defending the shield station or whatever, it will assumed that the Storm Troopers (the SW ones) are not defending it at the same time.
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Post by Ghost Rider » 2005-09-15 12:15am

Read the thread above.

It actually has an immense amount of objective material of how powerful both sides armories are. Not because it's a versus.

And SW range(Ref: RoTS ICS) are at 10 Light minutes or 180,000,000 KM. So please before we go into who's got the bigger dick, there are posters who devoted pages.

READ THEM.
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Post by fgalkin » 2005-09-15 12:16am

defanatic wrote:I don't know really. Star Wars ships are woefully lacking in range (apart from the "galaxy gun", which I haven't spotted in any of the movies), while IoM ships have a massive range (30,000 km or more).

I also find it hard to believe that a star destroyer has the capability to melt a planet's surface in a short period of time, as it has trouble defeating (possibly inferior) rebel capital ships.
Belive it or not, it occurse
And I was also referring to replacing the Empire with the Imperium for certain situations (like, for example, the Battle of Endor). In cases such as those, they would never meet. When defending the shield station or whatever, it will assumed that the Storm Troopers (the SW ones) are not defending it at the same time.
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Post by 18-Till-I-Die » 2005-09-15 12:18am

Also that is complete bullshit about Stormies have no heavy weapons. The word 'E-WEB' mean anything--it's a gun about as big as a lascannon, look actually amost identical, but can punch through starship hulls (they were intending to blow the Millennium Falcon down with it on Hoth so it must have some antiarmor capability).

Also we've seen the sandtroopers in ANH carrying a large repeating blaster. It didnt have the backpack generator but it can be equipped with one, which allows it to fire repeatedly and very powerful shots for long periods of time (they say almost 'infinite' but i'd take that to mean 'thousands upon thousands of shots' since it makes more sense).

They have flamers in SW too, Boba Fett, a mere mercenary, had one so teh Stormies probably have access to far better ones too when needed. They also have grenade luanchers of various caliber IIRC.

And Stormie armor is also extremely resistant to damage. The Main Site explains it far better than i could, but it's very heavily defended, with NBC protection and built in communicators, and is actually closer to a scaled down Power-Armor than flak armor. The Stormtroopers hurt by arrows in ROTJ were hit in the areas between their armor, the weak rubery bodyglove part not the stronger plates.
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Post by 18-Till-I-Die » 2005-09-15 12:28am

defanatic wrote:I also find it hard to believe that a star destroyer has the capability to melt a planet's surface in a short period of time, as it has trouble defeating (possibly inferior) rebel capital ships.
The Rebels had the same technology as teh Empire, just less. Their ships werent designed for war so they might have had weaker shields but their guns, while fewer in number, were still turbolasers and still pumping out high-GT/low-TT per shot. Mon Cal cruisers if i recall, were actually quite well designed and well shielded and armed too, despite being hastily refitted civilian craft.

And yes they can melt a planet's surface. It's called a Base Delta Zero, others can explain it better than i but basically it involves detsroying the entire surface of a world, the whole crust is melted and destroyed to the point where it'd be cheeper to relocate to another world and teraform it from scratch than to ever try to live there again. It destroys all life, all fish, all animals, all plants, all people, all cities--gone. In only a few hours too, i think i read the general number was about 3 hours when more than one ship does it, i think 12 hours is the general timeframe for one ship.

Again if i make any huge mistakes point and laugh at will. :P But i think that's pretty accurate.
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Post by Lost Soal » 2005-09-15 04:57am

By the way;
- Sentinels are common, and heavily armoured compared to ATST walkers
Sentinals are about twice the height of a man, AT-ST somewhat larger, and considering whats being fired at it, the sentinal is more vulnerable to small arms fire because of exposed body parts.
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Post by Captain tycho » 2005-09-15 05:19am

Lost Soal wrote:By the way;
- Sentinels are common, and heavily armoured compared to ATST walkers
Sentinals are about twice the height of a man, AT-ST somewhat larger, and considering whats being fired at it, the sentinal is more vulnerable to small arms fire because of exposed body parts.
And it's rather stupid to compare what are essentially legged Humvees as an indicator of ground combat capabilities. :P
Now, even though this argument has been done to death, I'm bored, so I'll retread a few things.
The GE has vast speed and firepower advantages over the Imperium, at least in space. Where it takes half a year for an Imperium ship to cross the galaxy (assuming ideal conditions), it takes a SW ship around a week to travel the same distance.
Firepower wise, Imperium ships have weapons in the (IIRC) low gigaton range, while GE ships have firepower in the 200+ gigaton range, at minimum.
As for ground capabilities, I belive both are closely matched, although with complete orbital supremacy the GE would win pretty much all ground engagments.
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Post by The Grim Squeaker » 2005-09-15 07:25am

Isn't there something called a nova cannon with a peta-ton range output?

Also there is the part in the exterminatus of Istiban 3 in Eisenhorn with:
:
Page 244 wrote: "Petals of flame, the size of continents, spread out from under it's milky skin"
, what would the output be needed for that, or is it discounted due to the fact that it could be multiple guns locking on, firing, hitting and exploding at the same time and somehow combining their firepower?
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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2005-09-15 08:42am

40K gets killed hard in space against Star Wars. Three kilometer plus Imperial Cruisers are out gunned by a considerable margin by Star Destroyers half their length. The exterminatus DEATH quoted was the product of a fleet action.

40K naval firepower is impressive. It's devestating. It is also not equal to a civilization that can build far more powerful craft a fraction of its size and moon sized planet destroying battlestations in secret. Wars wins.
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Post by Uraniun235 » 2005-09-15 01:50pm

As long as the Galactic Empire is trying to exterminate the Imperium and not attempting to conquer it, the Empire will in the short-term beat the shit out of the Imperium. However, it's been suggested that the influence of the Warp will eventually lead to long-term problems within the Imperial Navy.

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Post by NecronLord » 2005-09-15 02:33pm

Uraniun235 wrote:However, it's been suggested that the influence of the Warp will eventually lead to long-term problems within the Imperial Navy.
And largely discounted. Fun though it is to rely on essentially unquantifiable fallbacks like Chaos, there's no reason Star Wars would be particularly vunerable. Golden Age humanity managed against three chaos gods for thirty thousand years.
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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius » 2005-09-15 02:53pm

NecronLord wrote:And largely discounted. Fun though it is to rely on essentially unquantifiable fallbacks like Chaos, there's no reason Star Wars would be particularly vunerable. Golden Age humanity managed against three chaos gods for thirty thousand years.
If the Empire wastes the Imperium's holdings one after another, they're eventually going to shred things like Inquisitors and their networks. Without the Ordo Malleus, daemons will be relatively free to pour forth from the Warp and wreak havoc.

Now, I'm not saying this is going to instantly tear the Navy apart, mind, but it will cause serious problems. Khorne in particular is going to have fun with all the death be chucked around.
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Post by Lancer » 2005-09-15 03:17pm

NecronLord wrote:
Uraniun235 wrote:However, it's been suggested that the influence of the Warp will eventually lead to long-term problems within the Imperial Navy.
And largely discounted. Fun though it is to rely on essentially unquantifiable fallbacks like Chaos, there's no reason Star Wars would be particularly vunerable. Golden Age humanity managed against three chaos gods for thirty thousand years.
isn't that about the time the Eldar royally fucked things up, got eaten by Slannesh, and in the process tore a hole between the warp and reality?

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Post by Elheru Aran » 2005-09-15 05:08pm

The response to your OP in a nutshell:

Aren't Imperial Guard lasguns about as effective as a good-sized flashlight? :twisted:

Okay, in all seriousness...

While there's no question that the Imperium is badly outmatched in space (though they'd make for a much more formidable fight than a fair few other universes' spacefleets), it's much more difficult where ground forces are concerned because of the Space Marines.

However, an Imperial Guard battalion/regiment/whatever, should be less worry for the Empire. For one thing-- NBC weapons are something the Empire would have absolutely no compunctions about using; and *all* pictures of Guard that I've seen shown little to absolutely no degree of NBC protection. They have some sort of flak vest and a helmet, and that's about it.

In the greatest extremity, they could simply ask Executor for a pinpoint bombardment with light turbolasers; more probably they would just send in the AT-ATs.
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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius » 2005-09-15 05:16pm

Elheru Aran wrote:However, an Imperial Guard battalion/regiment/whatever, should be less worry for the Empire. For one thing-- NBC weapons are something the Empire would have absolutely no compunctions about using; and *all* pictures of Guard that I've seen shown little to absolutely no degree of NBC protection. They have some sort of flak vest and a helmet, and that's about it.
Some units. Steel Legion, Death Korps, Shock Troops, and a whole variety of others pack at the very least masks as standard issue. There are also many regiments which use carapace armor exclusively.

And while I've no doubt the Empire would use them, their absence in important engagements like Hoth and Endor would at the very least point toward scarcity.
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Post by Black Admiral » 2005-09-15 06:07pm

Elheru Aran wrote:However, an Imperial Guard battalion/regiment/whatever, should be less worry for the Empire. For one thing-- NBC weapons are something the Empire would have absolutely no compunctions about using; and *all* pictures of Guard that I've seen shown little to absolutely no degree of NBC protection. They have some sort of flak vest and a helmet, and that's about it.
All Imperial Guardsmen are issued at least a gas mask as standard. While, granted, this won't do much against many NBC agents, it's far better than nothing.
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Post by Noble Ire » 2005-09-15 06:35pm

And while I've no doubt the Empire would use them, their absence in important engagements like Hoth and Endor would at the very least point toward scarcity.
I can see it's usefulness on Hoth, but using boi or chemical weaponry on Endor would be extremely foolish, considering the large number of unprotected Imperial Officers in the shield complex, and the unarmored officers and guards who were part of the fighting force.
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Post by Civil War Man » 2005-09-15 06:58pm

Noble Ire wrote:
And while I've no doubt the Empire would use them, their absence in important engagements like Hoth and Endor would at the very least point toward scarcity.
I can see it's usefulness on Hoth, but using boi or chemical weaponry on Endor would be extremely foolish, considering the large number of unprotected Imperial Officers in the shield complex, and the unarmored officers and guards who were part of the fighting force.
It would have made sense to use some kind of agent at Hoth, but the absence really didn't harm the Empire any. There were a number of key Rebel personnel that needed to be captured alive, which would have reduced the selection for which agents can be used. Assuming a non-lethal paralyzing agent was on hand, the energy shield complicated the most probable method of distribution (air drop into the trenches).

Of course, that method of distribution would only effect troops on the surface, since the Rebels would have a ventilation system (which would probably include air scrubbers) for indoor areas. So in that case you'd need to use the agent once you're already in the base, and by that point it's a Hell of a lot easier to just shoot them.

As for Endor, Noble Ire's covered it. Many of the combatants did not have NBC protection, so using them would have caused friendly fire casualties on a large scale.

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Post by defanatic » 2005-09-15 08:46pm

I just recall watching a few movies, and noting that the Storm Troopers, despite being the Emporer's Elite, can't shoot for shit. Leia gets hit twice I believe (in "A New Hope" and "Return of the Jedi"), and she only faints once, and gets a burn on her arm. Hardly high power weaponary.

As for Starwars ship range, I haven't actually seen them shoot at anything other than close range. At the battle of Endor, for example, all the ships are intermixed. How did they even get that close?
Or the battle of Coruscant (sp?). Everything is up close.

And the huge power of turbo-lasers seems to be pathetic, considering it can't completely vapourise a droid (The Phantom Menace).

But all of this can be discounted by:
They choose to fight at close range.
Their weapons are not on their highest setting.

So I don't know how you are meant to know what the highest setting is. Or why they fight at short range (Han Solo getting attacked by TIE fighters, "He's nearly in range").
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Post by Noble Ire » 2005-09-15 08:57pm

I just recall watching a few movies, and noting that the Storm Troopers, despite being the Emporer's Elite, can't shoot for shit. Leia gets hit twice I believe (in "A New Hope" and "Return of the Jedi"), and she only faints once, and gets a burn on her arm. Hardly high power weaponary.
Did you read any of the linked threads? :roll:
As for Starwars ship range, I haven't actually seen them shoot at anything other than close range. At the battle of Endor, for example, all the ships are intermixed. How did they even get that close?
Or the battle of Coruscant (sp?). Everything is up close.
:wtf:

Did you miss Lando's entire discussion with Ackbar about moving closer to the Star Destroyer fleet, where it is described as an extremely unorthidox tactic?
And the huge power of turbo-lasers seems to be pathetic, considering it can't completely vapourise a droid (The Phantom Menace).
What evidence do you have that the Blockading ships were firing their main weapons rather than lighter guns? Did it ever occur to you that they might not be trying to destroy the ship at all, but rather capture it (and thus bothered to shoot off the droids rather than destroy the ship outright)?
So I don't know how you are meant to know what the highest setting is. Or why they fight at short range (Han Solo getting attacked by TIE fighters, "He's nearly in range").
But of course, Capital Starships are limited to the firing range of a modified smuggling hauler. :roll:
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