Chaos gods show up in B5verse.

Mopeyennuui · Post by **Mopeyennuui** » 2005-06-07 02:29am

Hyperspace is left alone, with the warp beneath that. if you need a EOT put it on the other side of the galaxy. Twenty cultists of each appear on B5 during season three. 100.000 for each god are on the homeworlds, as preselected by the entities. They also are limited cultists, with no real authority or power to speak of. No, Nurgle cannot take the Pak. No way in hell.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-06-07 07:29am

I have the suspision that the Vorlons and the Shadows would alter their priorities.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2005-06-07 09:29am

Hmmm....I'm definitely getting Tzeentch vibes from the Shadows, what with their emphasis on subtle plotting from the shadows and using others to achieve their ends. Then again, the sheer asswhoop they dish out is rather Khorneish. The Vorlons...well, their obsession with order would make a clash with the CHAOS gods pretty entertaining, once they realized what they were dealing with.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-06-07 09:37am

The Shadows would become minions of Khorne in a heartbeat. Their whole, survival of the fittest, war breed strength ideology is a second away from screaming BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! to begin with add to that their natural ruthlessness and it'd fall into place rather quickly.

I cant see any way the Centauri could NOT be drawn to Slannesh.

The Vorlons...might be drawn to Tzeentch, thinking they can use him as a tool against the Shadows, all the while not realizing he's using them instead.

I dont see any Nurglites in B5...

Humans are either leaning towards Tzeentch or Khorne, depending on the season. I'd say the former.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-07 09:44am

What would a Chaos Shadow or even worse Vorlon look like

.
"Wasnt there a station here last season"

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-06-07 10:39am

I think you people aren't giving the First Ones enough credit here. You have to invite Chaos to corrupt you, and supplicate yourself before it. 40K debators, especially those on SB.com have a nasty no limits fallacy regarding Chaos corruption, that they can corrupt anyone.

It is a mistaken view at best and a fraudulent deception at worst. Even Horus, who they posessed personally, as in, all four gods ganging up and reaming him out, and posessing him like a demon, had to go and allow natives to preform a ritual on him before that happened.

The First Ones, or at least the Vorlons, have had experience with malevolent extradimensional aliens before. They're not going to be easily suckered in. At all.

If it gets bad, the Planet Killers are used on all the homeworlds, and chaos is eliminated. While it cannot be beaten per se, if you eliminate all cultists, you have solved the problem. The chaos gods can sit in their own dimension and rant about how huge they are, but without mortal servants, they're no threat to anyone but each other.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-07 10:46am

When did they fight MED's?
Also i thought that a lust for order is how most marines or inquisitors end up being corrupted (sounds like them).
Also do the Vorlons/shadows have pinpoit locations on the homeworlds? if so then it's a hideous slaughter as Necron lord said.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-06-07 10:52am

Thirdspace. The Vorlons opened a gateway to a Third Space inhabited by lovecraft ripoffs, and got themselves mind controlled. The remaining Vorlons fought a long war with horrendous casualties to bottle up the Thirdspace critters again, but the gateway was cast adrift by the posessed Vorlons in hyperspace before the free Vorlons could locate and destroy it.

When the chips are down, the Vorlons aren't just ruthless, they are, or at any rate, used to be, rather brave. I doubt very much that they would be keen on the same thing happening again, especially to the 'younger races.'

To be corrupted, you have to allow Chaos to use you, admittedly when you think you're using it. The Vorlons at least, have been burnt before on this, and would most likely just shoot it. A strategy that is highly effective in dealing with chaos.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-06-07 11:03am

Hell, if we want to get pedantic, as Vorlon Created Telepaths don't use the Warp, the Chaos cults are nothing but a collection of unsavoury religions, that can't actually do anything special.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-07 11:05am

Wasnt there a fluff piece in 40k about a captain thinking about how he could use the power for the emperor while sitting on a chaos used table that caused him to be replaced by a demon?
Also i thought that the Vorlons were almost as bad as the shadows in their thoughts on the younger races? (i'm not an expert on b5)

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-06-07 11:06am

NecronLord wrote:To be corrupted, you have to allow Chaos to use you, admittedly when you think you're using it. The Vorlons at least, have been burnt before on this, and would most likely just shoot it. A strategy that is highly effective in dealing with chaos.

Oh really? I'm going to have to brutally torture some 40kers in another thread or two now.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-06-07 11:11am

All sorts of chaos artifacts can whisper to your mind, but only you can make the choice. I doubt the collective Koshes will be so stupid.

Both the Vorlons and the Shadows strive to do the best they can for the Younger Races. They are guardians and teachers, left behind by the other first ones. They would probably even unite against this kind of threat to their 'flocks.'

The reason for their conflict is that the Vorlons believe that they 'serve' the Younger Races best by offering direct instruction and command. Like schoolteachers. Some, like Ulkesh (Kosh #2) are the kind that like to use the cane, some, such as Kosh, are more amicable, but all Vorlons ultimately have the same aim.

The Shadows, in comparison, believe that the Younger Races will advance best if set at each other's throats, allowing them to elvolve, and thrive through conflict ("some die, and that's sad but..."). They're rather like the guy with the bag of glue behind the bike shed. You'll learn valuable lessons from him, but you won't particularly enjoy learning from him.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-06-07 11:17am

SirNitram wrote:Oh really? I'm going to have to brutally torture some 40kers in another thread or two now.

Oh don't get me wrong, it's got its share of mind controlling magic, and very few demonhosts are willing, but all that is ultimately required for a normal human, or for that matter, First One, to resist chaos is:

The ability to say no.
The ability to shoot anyone who has said yes who is coming at you with a big book entitled 'Demonsummoning for Dummies.'

For 40K style psykers, there are complications to this, mind.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-06-07 11:20am

NecronLord wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Oh really? I'm going to have to brutally torture some 40kers in another thread or two now.
Oh don't get me wrong, it's got its share of mind controlling magic, and very few demonhosts are willing, but all that is ultimately required for a normal human, or for that matter, First One, to resist chaos is:

The ability to say no.

The ability to shoot anyone who has said yes who is coming at you with a big book entitled 'Demonsummoning for Dummies.'
For 40K style psykers, there are complications to this, mind.

Oh, inviting the Warp into your god damn head would obviously be an issue. Similarly, I think Dark Side users from, say, SW, would be in trouble. But the number of times the crowd has recited 'Anyone anywhere near 40k gets Chaos corrupted, they don't have the Emperor!!!!' is quite high.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-06-07 11:34am

Talking of SW types. It'd be easy enough to corrupt a lot of Imperial Moffs, but the average soldier or sailor? Hah. No.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-06-07 11:38am

NecronLord wrote:Talking of SW types. It'd be easy enough to corrupt a lot of Imperial Moffs, but the average soldier or sailor? Hah. No.

'Here, reading this book will give you vast power!'
'Hehehe, Tarkin's gonna get it... AUGH MY BRAIN-MEATS!'

vesus

'Here, reading this book will give you vast power!'
'Die, rebel subversive!' *PewPew!*

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-07 11:42am

Oh, inviting the Warp into your god damn head would obviously be an issue. Similarly, I think Dark Side users from, say, SW, would be in trouble. But the number of times the crowd has recited 'Anyone anywhere near 40k gets Chaos corrupted, they don't have the Emperor!!!!' is quite high.

Actually the emperor doesnt do jack shit against being corrupted, what he does do is keep your soul from being turned into candy in the afterlife, hardly a Vital factor (for short term chaos vs with any corporeal species).

Just think of Chaos Palpatine, now theres a thought to get Tzeentech

Black Admiral · Post by **Black Admiral** » 2005-06-07 11:43am

On Chaos corruption Soul Drinker is a good example.

The Soul Drinkers themselves are loyal to the Golden Throne, however they ended up corrupted (partly) by being suckered into Chaos worship by the daemon prince Abraxes.

Of course, if Abraxes hadn't decided to show up and gloat it might've worked better.

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2005-06-07 11:47am

NecronLord wrote:Talking of SW types. It'd be easy enough to corrupt a lot of Imperial Moffs, but the average soldier or sailor? Hah. No.

Well that depends. I'm sure it would be very tough to corrupt the clone-Stormtroopers, but normal people always have hopes, desires, and ambitions, which are just the things Chaos needs to sink their claws/teeth/tentacles/things best not mentioned into you.

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2005-06-07 11:58am

NecronLord wrote:Talking of SW types. It'd be easy enough to corrupt a lot of Imperial Moffs, but the average soldier or sailor? Hah. No.

How would the average soldier or sailor be less prone to corruption than your average Moff?

Black Admiral · Post by **Black Admiral** » 2005-06-07 12:11pm

Lord Zentei wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Talking of SW types. It'd be easy enough to corrupt a lot of Imperial Moffs, but the average soldier or sailor? Hah. No.
How would the average soldier or sailor be less prone to corruption than your average Moff?

The Moffs as a whole, unless I'm mistaken, are power-hungry egomaniacs. Exactly the type Chaos loves and the =][= hates.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-06-07 12:15pm

Lord Zentei wrote:How would the average soldier or sailor be less prone to corruption than your average Moff?

Moffs are chosen for social climbing ability, their skills at bending knees to higher authority, and their willingness to preform acts of great evil in securing their power base. They are exactly the kind of people who are described as typical chaos cultists. Imperial Soldiers operate in a highly disciplined, to the point of stifling creativity, army.

Well that depends. I'm sure it would be very tough to corrupt the clone-Stormtroopers, but normal people always have hopes, desires, and ambitions, which are just the things Chaos needs to sink their claws/teeth/tentacles/things best not mentioned into you.

So? You need to supplicate yourself before chaos to become a cultist. Very few people are tempted to that, even in 40K, where chaos has real power. Without psykers, it's just a whacky religion.

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2005-06-07 12:28pm

NecronLord wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:How would the average soldier or sailor be less prone to corruption than your average Moff?
Moffs are chosen for social climbing ability, their skills at bending knees to higher authority, and their willingness to preform acts of great evil in securing their power base. They are exactly the kind of people who are described as typical chaos cultists. Imperial Soldiers operate in a highly disciplined, to the point of stifling creativity, army.

Khorne.

NecronLord wrote:
Well that depends. I'm sure it would be very tough to corrupt the clone-Stormtroopers, but normal people always have hopes, desires, and ambitions, which are just the things Chaos needs to sink their claws/teeth/tentacles/things best not mentioned into you.
So? You need to supplicate yourself before chaos to become a cultist. Very few people are tempted to that, even in 40K, where chaos has real power. Without psykers, it's just a whacky religion.

It's rather more insidious than that, NL. A potential cultist can easily bend to chaos without realizing it or wanting it. Hell, the Inquisition will often exterminate soldiers that have fought in an anti-chaos campaign simply because they might have been infected with something. There are canon examples of people's path to being corrupted being initiated simply by being wounded by Chaos weaponry, Inquisitor Quixos not being the least of them. You're telling me that if one of the greatest Inquisitors of the 40K-verse was not immune that regular joes of other settings can "just say no?"

Nurgle's diseases will still affect people and whisper into their minds that he is wlling to abate their suffering in return for the dark pledge.

Ignorance of what the Chaos Gods are or what they are capable of will be a problem: the temptations of Chaos are deeply ingrained in the human psyche and a guy needn't know what he is getting himself into. Damnation happens by inperceptible increments. It's not as though the doorbell rings and "Hi! My name is Slaanesh, and I have a one time offer of hot looks and great power in return for your soul" and such.

Anyway, if you deny the Chaos Gods their power, you are not being entirely fair vis-a-vis the vs scenario. You might as well claim that the Culture could resist the Time Lords on the grounds that time travel doesn't work in the Cultureverse. Bad form.

Black Admiral · Post by **Black Admiral** » 2005-06-07 12:35pm

Again I point to the Soul Drinkers.

They were worshipping Chaos for a time, as well as being corrupted by it (including large-scale mutation) and they didn't know until the daemon prince responsible outright told them so. They thought they were fighting for the Emperor.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-06-07 12:39pm

Lord Zentei wrote: Khorne.

Bzzt. Killing doesn't make you Khornate. Especially not if you use killing under the pretense of justice. Wanton bloodlust makes you Khornate.

It's rather more insidious than that, NL.

Trust me. I know what I'm talking about. Likely better than you.

A potential cultist can easily bend to chaos without realizing it or wanting it.

Incorrect. They can be made to join cults that worship chaos dieties in disguise, but they still have to join the cult.

Hell, the Inquisition will often exterminate soldiers that have fought in an anti-chaos campaign simply because they might have been infected with something. There are canon examples of people's path to being corrupted being initiated simply by being wounded by Chaos weaponry, Inquisitor Quixos not being the least of them. You're telling me that if one of the greatest Inquisitors of the 40K-verse was not immune that regular joes of other settings can "just say no?"

1 - Quixos was, IIRC, a psyker.
2 - Quixos was insane with old age.
3 - He was already investigating the warp.

If you can't tell the difference between this and "OMFG THE INVADERS HAVE NO EMPEROR, CHOSA WILL GET EM ALL" you are not even worth talking to. No one is saying it can't be done with the best of intentions, but Chaos Worship must be a concious choice.

Nurgle's diseases will still affect people and whisper into their minds that he is wlling to abate their suffering in return for the dark pledge.

No different from any other form of duress. In the end, it's a choice, admittedly with dire conseqences. 40Kers, especially in vs against superior forces like Star Wars, like to claim it is like the Dark Archons in starcraft. A chaos god pushes a button and the enemy converts.

Ignorance of what the Chaos Gods are or what they are capable of will be a problem: the temptations of Chaos are deeply ingrained in the human psyche and a guy needn't know what he is getting himself into. Damnation happens by inperceptible increments. It's not as though the doorbell rings and "Hi! My name is Slaanesh, and I have a one time offer of hot looks and great power in return for your soul" and such.

And? How does this change the fact that 40Kers are liars when they say the GE, or the First Ones are doomed to Chaos Infestation the moment they go near 40K?

Anyway, if you deny the Chaos Gods their power, you are not being entirely fair vis-a-vis the vs scenario. You might as well claim that the Culture could resist the Time Lords on the grounds that time travel doesn't work in the Cultureverse. Bad form.

Why? Non-Chaos-suceptible humans exist in the 40K universe, and have as much sentience as anyone else. In theory, anyone from another universe would essentially have the powers of a necron praiah vis a vis Chaos entities. They don't have warp souls. They never will.