Galactic Empire vs. Imperium of Man - Mk.II

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

They should put him in a Dreadnought.

[Imperial Overlord]

The Emperor turning into a warp god doesn't mean an automatic IoM win. It's hard to say what will happen due to the difficulty of quantifying the powers of an entity that doesn't (yet) exist. He won't be omnipotent though and the GE has huge advantages.

Anybody have any thoughts as to what would happen to that wormhole if it found itself in the middle of another Storm of the Emperor's Wrath? Wouldn't that fuck it up?

Yes, it would.

[Tasoth]

They should put him in a Dreadnought.

Do they make dreadnaughts that big? 'Cause my faulty memory is saying that the primarchs towered over your standard space marines. Probably wrong though...

[The Grim Squeaker]

JediNeophyte wrote:
They should put him in a Dreadnought. Wink
Do they make dreadnaughts that big? 'Cause my faulty memory is saying that the primarchs towered over your standard space marines. Probably wrong though...

Su put him in a Titan

Hey, 100th post in only 2 days, wonder what the record is?

[Oskuro]

Although I agree with the SW GE having a technological advantage when it comes to Space Warfare.... I don't know why people insist so much on these advantages meaning a guaranteeed victory... It reminds me of this country who decided to attack this other country, and they thought "hey! we have better weapons! ships! planes! soldiers! this will be a walk in the park! we'll have it all tied up in a month!" And, of course, said country is still fighting, and solidiers are still dying, and untrained, badly equipped, supposedly inferior warriors are proving to be quite a problem.

I did elaborate about this on some other thread (sorry, no link, haven't got the hang of the forums yet), but basically, I wouldn't be so eager to mess with the 40k Imperium... They are a seriously fucked-up society that would scare the shit out of a Sith.

Besides, in any coherent SW vs 40K confrontation, the SW Empire would suddenly face half-wrecked, heavily retrofitted, RED PAINTED ISDs that, mysteriously, move FASTER. ORK!

[The Grim Squeaker]

Theres only one red ISD & corvette and it sure aint Imperial

Chances are Palpatine would paint the Bloody DS

Although I agree with the SW GE having a technological advantage when it comes to Space Warfare.... I don't know why people insist so much on these advantages meaning a guaranteeed victory... It reminds me of this country who decided to attack this other country, and they thought "hey! we have better weapons! ships! planes! soldiers! this will be a walk in the park! we'll have it all tied up in a month!" And, of course, said country is still fighting, and solidiers are still dying, and untrained, badly equipped, supposedly inferior warriors are proving to be quite a problem.

The problem is SW hyperdrive is a few orders of magnitude above the IoM's, concentrating your entire forces on critical enemy planet's while bypassing defensive lines is a nasty advantage.

[Black Admiral]

Although I agree with the SW GE having a technological advantage when it comes to Space Warfare.... I don't know why people insist so much on these advantages meaning a guaranteeed victory... It reminds me of this country who decided to attack this other country, and they thought "hey! we have better weapons! ships! planes! soldiers! this will be a walk in the park! we'll have it all tied up in a month!" And, of course, said country is still fighting, and solidiers are still dying, and untrained, badly equipped, supposedly inferior warriors are proving to be quite a problem.

I did elaborate about this on some other thread (sorry, no link, haven't got the hang of the forums yet), but basically, I wouldn't be so eager to mess with the 40k Imperium... They are a seriously fucked-up society that would scare the shit out of a Sith.

Besides, in any coherent SW vs 40K confrontation, the SW Empire would suddenly face half-wrecked, heavily retrofitted, RED PAINTED ISDs that, mysteriously, move FASTER. ORK!

The problem is, SW's advantage in space combat is not a factor of perhaps 50% or so, it's a factor of orders of magnitude. That means tens of times the 40K power's firepower and defences - I'm not going to even touch FTL speed, because that's even worse - at worst.

The disparity isn't as bad on the ground - in fact the Imperium and the GE are within each other's reach there - but space is the ultimate high ground, and in the end, no matter how good your army is, they're dependant on logistics, ie. power cells, rockets, shells, fuel, replacements, all of which needs to be brought in from, in the case of the latter, different systems.

The IoM can bleed the GE, no question, but beating them? Not a chance.

[Lancer]

same issue as Haloverse Humanity vs the Covenant.

They can win every battle on the ground, but the enemy can always sit up in space and burn the planets down.

[The Grim Squeaker]

The problem is, SW's advantage in space combat is not a factor of perhaps 50% or so, it's a factor of orders of magnitude. That means tens of times the 40K power's firepower and defences - I'm not going to even touch FTL speed, because that's even worse - at worst.

The disparity isn't as bad on the ground - in fact the Imperium and the GE are within each other's reach there - but space is the ultimate high ground, and in the end, no matter how good your army is, they're dependant on logistics, ie. power cells, rockets, shells, fuel, replacements, all of which needs to be brought in from, in the case of the latter, different systems.

The IoM can bleed the GE, no question, but beating them? Not a chance.

In terms of raw firepower the Iom is near SW level, a Exterminatus is possibly even worse than a BDZ and can also be performed by a single ship.
It's the non firepower figures where theyre screwed.
Also since when are Stormies a match for Marines or even the more numerous guard?.
In terms of vehicle support the Imp's do have a far better portfolio.

[Black Admiral]

In terms of raw firepower the Iom is near SW level, a Exterminatus is possibly even worse than a BDZ and can also be performed by a single ship.

The Imperium's firepower is in the hundreds of gigatons to low teratons. SW firepower can reach into the petatons unless I'm mistake.

As for Exterminatus, in the majority of cases it's a method (like viral bombing) that isn't applicable to ship-to-ship engagements.

It's the non firepower figures where theyre screwed.
Also since when are Stormies a match for Marines or even the more numerous guard?.

The Guard, as well disciplined and equipped as they are, simply don't have the firepower on call that the SW side does (heaviest Guard weaponry I know of is the Atlas-class nuke, 1 megaton exactly IIRC).

And stormtrooper/clonetrooper armour is at the very least comparable to flak plate in protection, and has the added benefits of NBC protection and full sensor equipment.

In terms of vehicle support the Imp's do have a far better portfolio.

[The Grim Squeaker]

The Imperium's firepower is in the hundreds of gigatons to low teratons.
SW firepower can reach into the petatons unless I'm mistake.

My mistake
[/quote]
As for Exterminatus, in the majority of cases it's a method (like viral bombing) that isn't applicable to ship-to-ship engagements. [/quote]
Wasnt there there a quote of one of the newer book's of giant fireball's being used [/quote]

[Black Admiral]

My mistake

Wasnt there there a quote of one of the newer book's of giant fireball's being used

Those were from fleet bombardment of 56-Izar. However, it's unclear whether those were the direct results of the weapons strikes, or secondary effects.

[Murazor]

The Imperium's firepower is in the hundreds of gigatons to low teratons. SW firepower can reach into the petatons unless I'm mistake.

Standard HTL seem to throw low teratons per shot... with a quite insane refire rate. And then there are the FHTL (Fucking Heavy Turbo Laser) of that Separatist frigate that rates in the tens of petatons, IIRC.

BTW, I have heard that Nova Cannons are supposed to fire big slugs of iron at relativistic speeds. How big are those things? What kind of ships use them? What is their reload time?

[Black Admiral]

Standard HTL seem to throw low teratons per shot... with a quite insane refire rate. And then there are the FHTL (Fucking Heavy Turbo Laser) of that Separatist frigate that rates in the tens of petatons, IIRC.

BTW, I have heard that Nova Cannons are supposed to fire big slugs of iron at relativistic speeds. How big are those things? What kind of ships use them? What is their reload time?

Nova Cannons are 750 meters long (cruiser/battle cruiser scale) to ~1200m long (BB scale) (both these are scaling from the illustrations in the BFG rulebook and 2002 annual).

They're used by to my knowledge four common ship types, not counting one-off mods like the Fist of Russ:
Mars-class BCs
Dominator-class CAs
Victory and Apocalypse-class battleships

The reload time is variable. For instance, there's one incidence of the Imperious (a Mars-class BC) reloading its Nova Cannon inside of five minutes, and another of a Victory-class reloading its NC in ~30 minutes.

The NC on the Fist of Russ is a different design to most, either a fixed or turreted dorsal mount, as the space usually used for NC mounting is ocuppied on the FoR by the neutronium ramming spike.

[Raxmei]

Nova Cannon can also be fitted to Lunar-class cruisers in place of the usual torpedoes. Two such cruisers exist in Battlefleet Gothic, Minotaur and Lord Daros.

[Ford Prefect]

Okay, I love the Imperium (I was once asked how), but I have to agree that would lose. That certainly wouldn't get run over, and the GE wouldn't get much out of it except some experience with a mad society that has nothing better to do but wage war. Constantly.

In space, the GE has it. Sure, the Dictator class cruiser is three kilometers long. Sure, the Retribution class is seven and a half kilometres long. But the GE is still superior.

On the ground, its more matched. The little Imperial Guardsman, who faces more monsters in a week than I can recall ever being in the Star Wars galaxy, is sure well trained, but can't match a stormie, who'd have to be at least equally trained and better equipped (I'm pretty sure that stormie armour is the equal of carapace, rather than flak). Of course, you put Space Marines into the equation (I will not, it just isn't fair) in their actual role, ie, rapid attack, then you get many GE casulties.

But despite that, the Imperium still looses. After a while. And I wouldn't count on abducting the Emperor. Even if you could get through the Terran PDF, you'd have to find your way through the Imperial Palace, still fighting the PDF, then you'd have to get through the Custodians, who would just ruin your day.

So, yeah. It's fairly even when it gets to the shooting, but the Empire wins. Dammit.

[Connor MacLeod]

The problem is, SW's advantage in space combat is not a factor of perhaps 50% or so, it's a factor of orders of magnitude. That means tens of times the 40K power's firepower and defences - I'm not going to even touch FTL speed, because that's even worse - at worst.

I think it depends alot on the specific "comparison" as well as the particular set of values you use (the more conservative or the more generous.) If you use the "more generous" firepower estimates for the IoM, then the disparity might be only a few times that (IIRC I estimated that an Imperial vessel had 5x the firepower of a comparably-sized IoM warship.) Using more conservative estimates could be an order of magnitude or more.

In terms of say, industrial or shipbuilding capcity, ,or FTL speed, then yeah, its ALOT higher.

The disparity isn't as bad on the ground - in fact the Imperium and the GE are within each other's reach there - but space is the ultimate high ground, and in the end, no matter how good your army is, they're dependant on logistics, ie. power cells, rockets, shells, fuel, replacements, all of which needs to be brought in from, in the case of the latter, different systems.

In terms of equal numbers, fighting on the terms of IoM, and without orbital support, the IoM definitely outmatches the Empire. Imperial and Republican ground combat doctrine centers more heavily on the vehicles it carries as well as orbital support than on troops (although the Empire and NR clearly had "super soldiers" when needed.)

There's also the issue of the whole "supernatural" side of things - IoM at least holds the advatnage numerically there, if not qualitatively (although in alot of cases its both.. they tend to have on average more powerful "psychics" or whatnot, and more of them.)

Balacing that out though, of course, we come back to the sheer Industrial and resource capacity of the Empire - ultimately the Empire has more troops, ships, and whatnot to throw at the Imperium and win, in the long term if not short term.

The IoM can bleed the GE, no question, but beating them? Not a chance.

to an extent yeh. the actual degree I think depends on how the GE actually approaches the IoM. Fighting on their terms coudl be more costlier (wheras hit and run BDZ's on planets can be a useful tactic.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Standard HTL seem to throw low teratons per shot... with a quite insane refire rate. And then there are the FHTL (Fucking Heavy Turbo Laser) of that Separatist frigate that rates in the tens of petatons, IIRC.

An ISD HTL is somewhere in the e23-24 J range in terms of output (six to eight HTLs per ship, and a capital ship can divert nearly all its reactor output into its guns at "maximum firepower.".)

[Murazor]

An ISD HTL is somewhere in the e23-24 J range in terms of output (six to eight HTLs per ship, and a capital ship can divert nearly all its reactor output into its guns at "maximum firepower.".)

6 to 8? The HTL count for the ISD mk I was of 12 and 64 smaller ones for the mk II. Even if you are counting only those used for a broadside against a single enemy, your count still falls short. And I sincerely doubt that the "maximum firepower" means rerouting all (or nearly all) of the energy to the turbolasers, because dropping shields even for a split second ought to be somewhere next to raming the Executor in the list of stupid battle tactics. Some clarification here would be appreciated.

[Oskuro]

Ok, I like the 40k universe a lot, so it saddens me to admit this, but yes, I agree that the SW GE is superior, specially in space warfare.

I have my doubts about ground combat.... Hell, I don't have doubts, the 40k Universe is very specialised in ground combat, even with firepower disparities, a lifetime of combat experience does measure up to any sort of formal training (remember how ,supposedly untrained 3rd world troops, have, once and again, proven quite effective before trained troops such as US marines... I would never subestimate the sort of training a lifetime of conflict represents).

My point was that, considering how the SW GE depends heavily on psicological warfare (the shape of their ships, their walkers, and their tactics) and is used to dealing with not-so-beligerant opponents, suddenly facing a society whose mere line troops are ready to face the Tyranids, or even Chaos, wouldn't be easy.
Yes, you can BDZ each planet you find, but as soon as you try to set foot on these worlds, you're on for some heavy resistance.
The GE might "win" in the long run, but they will never get true peace (unless, of course, they define peace as extermination of the whole galaxy), and as the Iraq conflict has sadly proven, it is the occupation phase wich really drains both resources, and lives.

Lastly, assuming that Hyperspace travel is flawless and allows an Imperial fleet to get anywhere on the 40k galaxy is like assuming ST Shields are unnafected by lasers. Specially since it has been stated, by none other than Han Solo, that Hyperspace travel is far from all powerful... You could crash into a lot of things, and given the unknown nature of Hyperspace/Realspace relationships, we can't tell if, for example, the Warp has some resonnance effect on Hyperspace at all. An Imperial fleet would have a hard time navigating through uncharted space, specially given the many unknowns they would face. (My bet is that the Old Republic had an effective "Hyperspace Highway" beacon system to facilitate ship transit through secure routes, but correct me if I'm wrong, for I don't know much more about SW than the movies)

Also, I won't whine about "geee! it isn't fair! let the IoM grow to be a galaxy-wide empire! give it a couple thousand years!"... But I must point out that the IoM reality includes its enemies... if the SW GE ever wanted to fight the IoM, they would have to deal with the rest of the 40k forces...

And..... my reference to the retrofitted red vessels.... was actually meaning a group of Boyz would hijack imperial vessels, and paint them red to make them faster! WAAAAGH![/quote]

[The Grim Squeaker]

Also, I won't whine about "geee! it isn't fair! let the IoM grow to be a galaxy-wide empire! give it a couple thousand years!"... But I must point out that the IoM reality includes its enemies... if the SW GE ever wanted to fight the IoM, they would have to deal with the rest of the 40k forces...

See the mk.3 thread, apparently the combined 40k galaxy would probably win with a FTL upgrade

[Oskuro]

Nah, i didn't mean that the 40k galaxy would unite aganist the SW Ge (unlikely), I meant that it would be harder for the GE to get through all the other groups (well, some of them) in order to make it to the IoM.

Having to literally wade through masses of bio terrors, myserious pointy-eared wailers, and those green guyz... would probably rise several eyebrows at the Imperial Budget Department.

Although, of course, Mr Vader would keep on his line: "Those planet-eating hive fleets do not matter to me, Admiral"*
Not to mention that Palpatine would hurriedly jump into his shuttle just to use himself as bait in some sort of contrieved scheme....

Whatever the case, many Bothans would surely die.



*Note: Again, my quotes from the movies are transaleted, so sorry if they are not accurate. That quote was Vader telling Admiral Needa to go into the Asteroid field in TESB .

[The Grim Squeaker]

Isnt EU uber-palpy supposed to be able to beat chaos-Horus?
Also yeah, Imperial efforts would be severly hampered by running into the Tyranids, they would also attract the Biggest WAAAAAAGH in 40K history .
Da more ob da Boyz, da meaner Be BE.

[NecronLord]

Isnt EU uber-palpy supposed to be able to beat chaos-Horus?

....



No.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Ah.
So a forcestorm isnt near the level of the storm if the emperor's wrath in damage if not staying power?