Eldar versus Clonies.

[Skelron]

Thirdfain I can suggest one Artillary piece of the top of my head the Eldar will be using, (Got to love the future seeing Farseers, who likely spent two days in advance going... 'Nah I can't be right, NO one could be that stupid not even Krorks')

Nightspinners.... The lovely Artilary version of the Mono-Filiment webs of the Warp-Spiders.... Who needs Shurikans when you can just drop mass infantry death on their heads... Yes yes I know not exactly a great post but I just had this image in my head of a Farseer's Wet-Dream. Mon-Keigh who line up in big bunches for him to slaughter....

[Thirdfain]

Nightspinners will probably be able to take out Clone infantry by getting in through the parts of the armor covered only by the bodyglove. As for being able ot penetrate their actual carapace, it's questionable. The fluff in the 2nd Edition codex mentions a Warp Spider ripping a Chaos Marine into chunks with his Deathspinner, which would make them effective enough against Clone Trooper armor... but I'm not sure if I'd go so far as to say that nightspinners would be great weapons against Clones.

[Skelron]

Nightspinners will probably be able to take out Clone infantry by getting in through the parts of the armor covered only by the bodyglove. As for being able ot penetrate their actual carapace, it's questionable. The fluff in the 2nd Edition codex mentions a Warp Spider ripping a Chaos Marine into chunks with his Deathspinner, which would make them effective enough against Clone Trooper armor... but I'm not sure if I'd go so far as to say that nightspinners would be great weapons against Clones.

Fair enough, It was mostly I admit just the image of them all lined up. But I never thought about the armour on the Clones side... Damn stupid mistake by me.

Ah well.

[Connor MacLeod]

The clones seem to have a lot more air support than usual Eldar normally seem to use (not counting the hover vehicles.

Wrong. The Eldar make extensive usage of ground attack craft and aerospace fighters.

Eldar take this easily, or are evenly matched, depending on era. Early Clone Wars clone army, as in during the attack at Geonosis, will get slaughtered- their laughable fieldcraft and near-Civil War tactics will get them raped.

I've heard it said their tactics improve drastically by the late war. If this is true, then the Clones have gear which can certainly threaten the Eldar.

You seem to be operating under the assumption that the Clonetroopers will automatically utilize the same tactics against the same opponents regardless, which is a ludicrous assumption. The Eldar apparently are not going to be of the same quality as a battle droid, they're not going to have the separatists numerical advantage, and they will have vehicles supporting them that the droid armies didn't (the droid armies lacked gunships or medium/heavy walkers including SPHA-T type vessels.)

Unless the clones are already deployed and/or have absolutely know way of knowing what their enemy's doing (or is ocmposed of - doubtful given the presence of sensors.) I fail to see how they're going to treat the Eldar automatically as being like battle droids.

[Connor MacLeod]

My questions about the scenario are the following:

1.) How far apart are the two forces (distances and ranges involved that have to be covered.

2.) How early in the battle does this start? Have the Acclamators already landed and deployed all their troops, or are they all still onboard or what?

3.) Do the Eldar suffer from the "no aerial support" restriction that the Geonosians did (they had thousands of fighters, but a preemptive strike against the hangars prevented them from being involved in the battle.)

4.) Do the Eldar have landed warships of any sort (like the Separatists did?) What is preventing the Acclamators from using their weaponry, sensors, whatnot to support the troops?

5.) Are there Jedi present in the battle, or is it JUST the clones? (It seems kinda dumb to have just the clones there, since the Jedi are supposted to be the frigging Generals. Plus, given the prevalence of psionic and "pseudomagic" tricks most 40K forcecs tend to have, I'd think Jedi ought to be present.)

[Typhonis 1]

I can see a spinner being used as an area denial weapon......shit monomolecular barbed wire......nasty stuff to try and cross.

[NecronLord]

1.) How far apart are the two forces (distances and ranges involved that have to be covered.

As I recall, a few kilomerers. Certainly the CIS positions and the clone landing area were within walking distance of one another.

2.) How early in the battle does this start? Have the Acclamators already landed and deployed all their troops, or are they all still onboard or what?

One would assume that both sides deploy simultaneously. Certainly the Acclamators wouldn't finish deployment before the shooting starts.

3.) Do the Eldar suffer from the "no aerial support" restriction that the Geonosians did (they had thousands of fighters, but a preemptive strike against the hangars prevented them from being involved in the battle.)

One would presume not, given that all Eldar strategy relies on aircraft and anit-gravitional vehicles.

4.) Do the Eldar have landed warships of any sort (like the Separatists did?) What is preventing the Acclamators from using their weaponry, sensors, whatnot to support the troops?

Eldar capital warships are incapable of landing. Only the necrons can do that. Weaponary: One would assume that they want the place intact. Sensors: I don't know if Acclamators have particularly impressive sensors. One would assume however, that they would.

5.) Are there Jedi present in the battle, or is it JUST the clones? (It seems kinda dumb to have just the clones there, since the Jedi are supposted to be the frigging Generals. Plus, given the prevalence of psionic and "pseudomagic" tricks most 40K forcecs tend to have, I'd think Jedi ought to be present.)

Yes. But it won't make much of a difference. Even the eldar Aspect Warriors can do that deflecting-weapons-fire-with-swords trick. Their psykers are considerably more nasty and numerous than anything the Jedi can handle.

[NecronLord]

they're not going to have the separatists numerical advantage

I have no idea why this story keeps changing. First it's the clones outnumbering the droids "A huge army!" "There are too many!" then it's the droids outnumbering the clones (a hair more believeable, but apparently disputed) and then back to clones outnumbering droids...

[NecronLord]

I think its ITW that says the Clonies actually walk into battle in such formations because they were trained to assume they would have a Jedi in front of them deflecting blaster bolts

Tell me you're kidding. Please.

[SylasGaunt]

Well actually it says IIRC they march double file to shelter behind the lightsaber of a commanding Jedi.

[SVPD]

This is hardly important. We are talking about the Battle of Geonosis, and the Clone Troopers of that era. Their tactics are not my opinion, they are canon. We can all see them, on screen, marching in those nice human waves.

Just because those are the tactics used on Geonosis does not meant hey are the only tactics the clone army has available. They were probably have been appropriate to the situation. The clones likely had objectives of capturing Count Dooku and his allies, and wanted to make a quick advance before the droid army could fully organize. Given their infantry base, they'd have had to walk.

A couple dozen heavy machine gun equivs in the hands of semicompotent soldiers would be more than sufficient to stop the Clone advance towards the core ships. A Swordwind army should be able to conjour that up just fine.

Explain how heavy machine guns will not be destroyed by fire from the AT-TEs or gunships.

Are you SERIOUSLY implying that a bounty hunter is someone who knows military tactics? This is simply ridiculous. You can't wave away the simple fact that in AOTC, the clones MARCH FORWARDS IN A HUMAN WAVE. THEY TAKE NO COVER. THEY USE NO ARMORED SPEARHEADS. THEY ATTACK ON A BROAD, FLAT PLAIN. This is not the act of a military genius. This is the act of an army which is lucky enough to be facing an equally inept foe.

First of all, jango was the source of genetic material, not the trainer for the clones.

Second, given the fact that the clones were able to competantly operate their equipment and maintain discipline under fire, they must have had training. These are not the stuff of untrained recruits. Do you seriously think that the Kamino trainers spent all their time on individual skills and never once thought "Hey, we better teach the officers to lead!"

Third, just because those tactics appear simple doesn't mean they were inappropriate. It is quite possible the clones were going for a shock offensive and a quick victory by siezing the initiative. We sent a "human wave" into Normandy without armored spearheads because it was appropriate.

Fourth, the whole "clones have shitty tactics" line is strikingly similar to the "stormtroopers have shitty aim" argument, and is based on circular logic to boot.

"We know the Clones have shitty tactics because we see them advance in a wave on Geonosis which they do because they have shitty tactics"

I disagree. Since hard numbers for the population of a craftworld are not in my fluff pile, it is difficult to assess exactly how many aspect warriors any particular craftworld holds. However, Clonetroopers by definition are more readily available and likely more numerous.

No disagreement here.

Sure, but we are pitting roughly equal number forces here. I see no reason why the Eldar, who are capable of (barely) standing up to the multi-billion man armies of the Imperium of Man, will be unable to match the clones at Geonosis.

Hence my opinion that it will be a stalemate.

We are talking about the Geonosis battle, so who cares about ep. 3.

It might give us more insight into clone capabilities

And you are wrong. Eldar heavy weapons will have opened fire on the Clones significantly before the Clones, who fire from the HIP, will be able to place accurate fire. The effects of Eldar small arms is of minimal importance to this battle.

Did you somehow manage to miss the presence of AT-TEs and Gunships at Geonosis?

Why are you so fixated on clone infantry?

Unnecessary. The Clones didn't even HAVE non-line of sight arty at Geonosis, and dubious evidence at BEST gives them arty inferior in range to our own today. The Eldar have less range than the fantastic IoM arty. That doesn't mean they'll be inferior to the godawful (and perhaps simply non-existent) clone arty.

I can't disagree that the direct-fire-only artillery of the clones is rather silly. However, I find it difficult to believe that a Turbolaser based system has less range than a modern howitzer (unless you mean effective range against ground targets).

Once again, why would they be unable to see the Clones? THE CLONES ARE TACTICAL RETARDS AS OF GEONOSIS. You can't refute that fact. Do so, or concede.

Yes, you can refute that fact. It's based on circular logic, as I showed. I suggest you concede.

Furthermore, your WWI analogy is hardly appropriate. In WWI effective armored or air support were largely lacking, and communications gear was not nearly as effective as it is today, much less what a space-faring army would have. The tactics of WWI came from long experience with the tactics of single-shot rifles and the melee weapons that preceeded them. The Clones have over 25,000 years of advaned weapons history to draw from. Tactics in WWI were based on inexperience with the effects of advanced weapons. While the clones may not be familiar with every detail of Eldar weapons, they will be able to recognize the roles that they play.

As an aside, the "WWI tactics" apply only to the western front, they were not present in other theaters.

[Thirdfain]

Just because those are the tactics used on Geonosis does not meant hey are the only tactics the clone army has available. They were probably have been appropriate to the situation. The clones likely had objectives of capturing Count Dooku and his allies, and wanted to make a quick advance before the droid army could fully organize. Given their infantry base, they'd have had to walk.

Now you are just being retarded. They had armour. They were out in the open. There was NO reason not to use their armor to spearhead their attack. There was NO reason not to use covering fire and advance by unit. You are just being stupid. Against a semicompotent enemy, they would have been slaughtered.

Explain how heavy machine guns will not be destroyed by fire from the AT-TEs or gunships.

The same way we saw Droid heavy vehicles firing until the end of the battle. They just weren't that good at fire support.

First of all, jango was the source of genetic material, not the trainer for the clones.

Um, wrong.

[qupte]Second, given the fact that the clones were able to competantly operate their equipment and maintain discipline under fire, they must have had training. These are not the stuff of untrained recruits. Do you seriously think that the Kamino trainers spent all their time on individual skills and never once thought "Hey, we better teach the officers to lead!"[/quote]

I never said they were untrained, I said their training sucked. Which it did.

Third, just because those tactics appear simple doesn't mean they were inappropriate. It is quite possible the clones were going for a shock offensive and a quick victory by siezing the initiative. We sent a "human wave" into Normandy without armored spearheads because it was appropriate.

No, we sent human waves at normandy without armored spearheads because we can no other choice, and EVEN THEN our men used cover, advanced by unit, and displayed tactics OTHER than walking standing upright and firing from the hip.

Fourth, the whole "clones have shitty tactics" line is strikingly similar to the "stormtroopers have shitty aim" argument, and is based on circular logic to boot.[/quote

Shut the fuck up. The stormies hace shitty aim line is easily explained by the fact that they generally intended on letting their targets escape. In fact, we see them display marginally better tactics than the clones, using cover and even aiming their shots on occaision.

"We know the Clones have shitty tactics because we see them advance in a wave on Geonosis which they do because they have shitty tactics"

Wow, you are a dumbass. Allow me to put this in nice, simple short words. The one time we have seen a clone army in operation, it has fought in a method absolutely inimical to it's survival against anything resembling a serious army. If the Droids had been anything but a poorly-equipped budget army run by bankers, it would have been a one-sided slaughter.

We are talking about the Geonosis battle, so who cares about ep. 3.

It hardly matters how their tactics have improved by Episode Three, as the OP specifies this is at Geonosis, literally the first time the Republic has fielded an army in centuries.

Did you somehow manage to miss the presence of AT-TEs and Gunships at Geonosis?
Why are you so fixated on clone infantry?

You DO know what happens to armor after it's infantry screen has been squandered, right? Especially when armored tactics of the era consist of "switch in to 1st gear and march slowly towards the enemy behind the infantry."

I can't disagree that the direct-fire-only artillery of the clones is rather silly. However, I find it difficult to believe that a Turbolaser based system has less range than a modern howitzer (unless you mean effective range against ground targets).

The Eldar guns might as well be on the moon as far as the SPHA-Ts are concerned, if they are placed behind one of Geonosis' many hills and mountains.

Yes, you can refute that fact. It's based on circular logic, as I showed. I suggest you concede.[/quote

I suggest you remove your head from your ass. My statement is based on observation of the movie. You are handwaving. You can NOT DENY that the Clones marched in a human wave at geonosis, when there was NO reason not to use an armored spearhead, advance under cover, or go prone. Your little statement that they want to take the Seperatist leaders as soon as possible is simply ridiculous. "Guys, even though you are our only current force, and the enemy will be numerous and well-armed, just walk forwards in a big human wave, firing from the hip. I'm sure you'll break through and take those Separatist leaders in no time."

Right....

The Clones have over 25,000 years of advaned weapons history to draw from.

They are soldiers who have never fought before, were trained by a bounty hunter, for a polity that hasn't had a standing army in decades if not centuries. Color me unsurprised when they exhibit retarded tactics.

Tactics in WWI were based on inexperience with the effects of advanced weapons. While the clones may not be familiar with every detail of Eldar weapons, they will be able to recognize the roles that they play.

Excuse me, then were were the machine-gun equivs at Geonosis? At the battle with the Gungans in Ep. 1? We know they have them by the OT, and their is a lot of evidence that the clones improve drastically by the end of the war- but we are not talking about the end of the war, no matter how much you bitch and complain. We are talking about the first deployment of Republic troops in decades if not centuries.

As an aside, the "WWI tactics" apply only to the western front, they were not present in other theaters.

They were certainly present at the Italian, Turkish, and to a much lesser degree, Russian fronts. And that's not important. Against anything approaching a serious prepared position, the clones would have been slaughtered. They went "over the top," firing their weapons from the hip (reminiscent of how the BAR was meant to be fired in an assault, only without the high rate of fire,) marching stupidly into the enemy guns. It seemed almost like it was meant to show off special effects rather than actually succeed.

Look, this is getting ridiculous. Stop handwaving. Your attempts to paint the Clone tactics as some sort of plan to "get there faster" is ridiculous, if that was the case, why wasn't their armor blitzing the enemy line? Why weren't they advancing by section, with one unit laying fire while another ran forewards? Why did they fire from the hip?

The answers are obvious. They are a green army (canon fact), trained by a bounty hunter (canon fact), of a polity that hasn't seen large-scale war in a very long time (canon fact). Meanwhile, the Eldar have been in a near continuous state of war for millenia, are more than capable of taking on the professional and doctorinaly experienced Imperial forces, and in the case of the Swordwind army, in many cases as well equipped, if not better, than the Space Marines.

Refute that, and you might have something. I don't think you'll be able to.

[2000AD]

First of all, jango was the source of genetic material, not the trainer for the clones.

Um, wrong.

Source?

[Imperial Overlord]

First of all, jango was the source of genetic material, not the trainer for the clones.

Um, wrong.

Source?

The movie. He's paid a truck load of cash to stay around Kamino and train the clones.

[Glimmervoid]

In my opinion the Eldar win. There indirect fire weapons (e.g. fire from behind a hill and let it fall on the enemy) would be very effective on Genoishis. Since it is specified as a sword wind army there will be few guardian units so there poor training dose not affect much.

The way I see this happening is the clones advance in there line under fire from eldar artillery. Then the clone trooper lines will be assaulted by multiple wave serpents which will deploy hollowing banshees and striking scorpions in to the middle of the lines (eliminating the massed fire power of the clones). Bright lances and fire dragons would deal with enemy tanks and artillery (which will be found easily because of there need for a line of sight) last the elder and clone air forces fight to a stand off.

[Glimmervoid]

Um, wrong.

Source?

The movie. He's paid a truck load of cash to stay around Kamino and train the clones.

And remember he personally trained the ark troopers.

The fact is there is likely no one alive in the starwars galaxy who remembers how to fight a large scale ground war well.

[SVPD]

Now you are just being retarded. They had armour. They were out in the open. There was NO reason not to use their armor to spearhead their attack. There was NO reason not to use covering fire and advance by unit. You are just being stupid. Against a semicompotent enemy, they would have been slaughtered.

You're a fucking idiot. They didn't use the armor as a spearhead because they didn't need to, and because their army is infantry based. Furthermore, you totally ignore the fact that speed was essential to this operation. They had to deploy very quickly from Kamino to Geonosis, which prevented any kind of in-depth planning, and they had probable objectives (capture Dooku and his cronies before they escape) that required shock and initiative.

The same way we saw Droid heavy vehicles firing until the end of the battle. They just weren't that good at fire support.

Try "because the droids also had a lot of infantry that needed to be killed" and also "because the droids heavy weapons (spiders and hailfires) fill the role of armor, or artillery, not heavy machine guns."

You dipshit, do you even know what the difference is between infantry support weapons and armored vehicles?

Um, wrong.

Um, right. The Kaminoans refer to "our training program" and "one of the finest clone armies we ever developed" They obviously had to train those other armies somehow. Jango is a bounty hunter, how is he supposed to be off trying to kill Padme and train clones at the same time?

I never said they were untrained, I said their training sucked. Which it did.

Which you have no evidence for other than "Clones training sucked because they used shitty tactics because their training sucked"

No, we sent human waves at normandy without armored spearheads because we can no other choice, and EVEN THEN our men used cover, advanced by unit, and displayed tactics OTHER than walking standing upright and firing from the hip.

Because they were assaulting prepared defensive positions, which the droids did not have. Where are you getting this bizarre idea that clones completely lack the ability to exercise normal human capacity to analyze a situation and change a course of action.

Shut the fuck up. The stormies hace shitty aim line is easily explained by the fact that they generally intended on letting their targets escape. In fact, we see them display marginally better tactics than the clones, using cover and even aiming their shots on occaision.

No kidding. I'm pointing out that your argument that clones have shitty tactics is the same load of horseshit trekkies use to say stormtroopers have no accuracy.

Whether Stormtroopers have better tactics than clones is totally irrelevant.

Wow, you are a dumbass. Allow me to put this in nice, simple short words. The one time we have seen a clone army in operation, it has fought in a method absolutely inimical to it's survival against anything resembling a serious army. If the Droids had been anything but a poorly-equipped budget army run by bankers, it would have been a one-sided slaughter.

Again, all based on the assumption that the clones would have fought that way regardless of the situation. You can't say that because they fought that way against an inferior enemy in a battle where they needed to advance quickly that they'd necessarily do that in all situations.

It hardly matters how their tactics have improved by Episode Three, as the OP specifies this is at Geonosis, literally the first time the Republic has fielded an army in centuries.

I didn't say tactics developed in Episode III, I was pinting out that we might get more information on clones in general than just one battle.

You DO know what happens to armor after it's infantry screen has been squandered, right? Especially when armored tactics of the era consist of "switch in to 1st gear and march slowly towards the enemy behind the infantry."

If the enemy is in terrain inhospitable to armor and has sufficient infantry of it's own, sure, it goes badly. That's not universally true. We didn't see any infantry escorting the AT-ATs on Hoth, and nothing happened to them. Both on open ground.

Furthermore, I'll refer you to the real-life 3rd ACR, an armored formation pretty much completely lacking your "infantry screen"

The Eldar guns might as well be on the moon as far as the SPHA-Ts are concerned, if they are placed behind one of Geonosis' many hills and mountains.

Which means the SPHA-Ts will have to be employed against the Eldar maneuver elements.

I suggest you remove your head from your ass. My statement is based on observation of the movie. You are handwaving. You can NOT DENY that the Clones marched in a human wave at geonosis, when there was NO reason not to use an armored spearhead, advance under cover, or go prone. Your little statement that they want to take the Seperatist leaders as soon as possible is simply ridiculous. "Guys, even though you are our only current force, and the enemy will be numerous and well-armed, just walk forwards in a big human wave, firing from the hip. I'm sure you'll break through and take those Separatist leaders in no time."

Right....

Why is it a ridiculous objective to capture the seperatist leaders before they escape? Did you ignore the whole problem of the sepratists that lead up to this point in the movie?

No kidding the clones advanced into enemy fire in the movie. That only proves what they did in a situation where it might be appropriate.

Before you go off on the firing from the hip nonsense anymore you might want to check out this from Mr. Wong's AOTC analysis

Ability to see through dust and smoke with in-helmet enhanced displays, as demonstrated when one of the Trade Federation core ships was shot down by heavy artillery. The resulting mammoth cloud of dust, debris, and smoke had no discernible effect on the clone troopers' combat effectiveness whatsoever. They continued to hold their positions and accurately annihilate incoming battle droids, not one of which was ever seen to breach the clone troopers' positions. If their in-helmet displays were similar to the scope on Zam Wessel's weapon, they probably incorporated similar targeting aids, such as its lock-on graphics

In case you hadn't noticed, they were getting hits firing from the hip dipshit. Just because it doesn't work for real soldiers doesn't mean it doesn't work in a highly advanced society.

They are soldiers who have never fought before, were trained by a bounty hunter, for a polity that hasn't had a standing army in decades if not centuries. Color me unsurprised when they exhibit retarded tactics.

Already showed Jango didn't train them, and more of your nonsense

Excuse me, then were were the machine-gun equivs at Geonosis? At the battle with the Gungans in Ep. 1? We know they have them by the OT, and their is a lot of evidence that the clones improve drastically by the end of the war- but we are not talking about the end of the war, no matter how much you bitch and complain. We are talking about the first deployment of Republic troops in decades if not centuries.

They weren't there, jackass, that's part of why they could get away with doing what they did. You're making the assumption that they couldn't adapt based on readily available information.

They were certainly present at the Italian, Turkish, and to a much lesser degree, Russian fronts. And that's not important. Against anything approaching a serious prepared position, the clones would have been slaughtered. They went "over the top," firing their weapons from the hip (reminiscent of how the BAR was meant to be fired in an assault, only without the high rate of fire,) marching stupidly into the enemy guns. It seemed almost like it was meant to show off special effects rather than actually succeed.

Maybe you should check out the helmet graphics, and the effectiveness of clonetrooper fire again.


Furthermore, they WEREN'T approaching a prepared position. If they WERE they would have done something different.
I'll concede the issue of what happened in WWI as it isn't important to this discussion.

Look, this is getting ridiculous. Stop handwaving. Your attempts to paint the Clone tactics as some sort of plan to "get there faster" is ridiculous, if that was the case, why wasn't their armor blitzing the enemy line? Why weren't they advancing by section, with one unit laying fire while another ran forewards? Why did they fire from the hip?

Maybe they weren't blitizing because of the limitations of their walkers in terms of speed and maneuverability. They didn't need to advance by section with covering fire because they were able to fire effectively while moving.

The answers are obvious. They are a green army (canon fact),

True, but which does not rob them of basic human problem-solving skills.

trained by a bounty hunter (canon fact),

Not canon fact, despite your ridiculous claim

of a polity that hasn't seen large-scale war in a very long time (canon fact).

And not produced by any official arm of that government, but by a planet which apparently makes a living creating clone armies, and therefore, might actually, say, know what they're doing.

Meanwhile, the Eldar have been in a near continuous state of war for millenia, are more than capable of taking on the professional and doctorinaly experienced Imperial forces, and in the case of the Swordwind army, in many cases as well equipped, if not better, than the Space Marines.

I in no way argued that the Eldar would not be a dangerous opponent, so you can stop wanking

Refute that, and you might have something. I don't think you'll be able to.

I did, but I'm sure you'll ignore it behind the shield of eldar-wank.

[white_rabbit]

Connor, the op plus notes
Basically everything of the Confed forces is replaced by eldar stuff, obviously not in the same numbers, assume similar numbers to the Clones.

Geonosis is an Eldar maiden world and the republic is attacking for kicks.

The scenario is as that of the film, Jedi included, Dooku is replaced by either a Autarch or a Biel-tan Farseer who came to the Seers path from the path of the Warlock, i.e. a battle farseer. Jango Fett is replaced by the Alanthrasil Swiftblade, an Eldar Pirate lord.

Whatever prevented the Acclamators and the rest of the fleet doing anything useful is in place here, be it Giant eldar D-cannons, shields, or whatever. The Eldar airpower is present.

[/quote]Eldar capital warships are incapable of landing. Only the necrons can do that. Weaponary: One would assume that they want the place intact. Sensors: I don't know if Acclamators have particularly impressive sensors. One would assume however, that they would.

Eldar warships might be incapable of physically landing, but I see no reason why they couldn't enter atmosphere, smaller vessels at any rate. Not really inportant, Eldar ground troops would evac through a webway portal anyway. I actually have a nice piccy with what can be either an unknown giant eldar grav-tank, or a small eldar vessel in atmosphere.

As for sensors, *shrug* as useful as they were in the film.

Are there Jedi present in the battle, or is it JUST the clones? (It seems kinda dumb to have just the clones there, since the Jedi are supposted to be the frigging Generals. Plus, given the prevalence of psionic and "pseudomagic" tricks most 40K forcecs tend to have, I'd think Jedi ought to be present.)

See that bit where it says the Jedi are present

I think its ITW that says the Clonies actually walk into battle in such formations because they were trained to assume they would have a Jedi in front of them deflecting blaster bolts

Sorry, no, it has a picture of clonies in a column on Kamino, training as though they would have a Jedi blaster shield.

I can see a spinner being used as an area denial weapon......shit monomolecular barbed wire......nasty stuff to try and cross.

A favoured Superheavy Grav tank for the Biel-Tan is the Void Spinner, it has a similar array to the Nightspinner tank, but also fires some sort of dispersal mechanism for a varient of the Eldar terraforming technology. wraithbone beasties and so forth that consume "flesh, bone and metal"

[white_rabbit]

Well, I nicely managed to fuck up the formatting on my above post.

The Clone assets, as per ITW

Clone Troopers:192,000
Sphats:100
LAATIs:1600
LAAT/C:400
AT-TE:2160
References to unknown number of speederbikes

Some eldar stuff to sub in, I'll spend more time on the less well known eldar stuff.

In the role of the SPHA/Ts sub in the following Eldar Superheavy grav-tanks

15 Scorpion SHGT
Twin long ranged pulsars. Pulsars are described as cutting tanks in half, extreme range, plus a small secondary turret with either a medium anti-tank weapon, or an anti-infantry cannon.

15 Cobra SHGT
One axial mount D-cannon. (warp rift weapon, ignores all forms of energy shield and armour seen in 40k thus far)
Anti-infantry/medium anti-tank laser
Rapid fire missile launcher.

15 Storm Serpent SHGT
Rapid fire anti-tank pulse laser
rapid fire anti-infantry pulse laser
Contains portable Wraith-Gate, capable of deploying light vehicles.

15 Void Spinner SHGT
Artillery tank, deploys a mono-filament web, plus Eldar bio-weapon. "breaks down the molecules of everything, flesh, bone, rock, metal)

Eldar Superheavies have roughly similar attributes, being mostly the same hull with a different refit.

Holofield
" A holofield fractures the image of a moving Scorpion. To the naked eye an active holofield will appear as a sudden swirl of colours. Gunners report that it is very hard to target a holofield protected target with any degree of certainty..Even the most blessed targetting and tracking devices can be blinded by the disruptive energies"

It is also protected by an energy deflector shield, and has armour considered to be extremely heavy for an eldar vehicle.

" scorpion has advanced sensory and targetting equipment, even whilst flying at high speeds, jinxing and weaving, popping up from cover for only the briefest second, the Scorpion can still lock onto a target and fire with lethal accuracy"

Combat speed is around 60kph, max speed estimated 290kph.
Cobras have less accurate weaponry, with half the range of the Scorpions.

20 Revenant Titans
10 Phantom Titans
5 Warlock Titans

For the 2000 LAATs
200 Vampires mix of hunters and raiders.
orbital capable troop carriers, 30 troops/support weapon equivalent. Hunters equipped with Anti-Titan guns.
300 Nightwing Interceptors
100 Phoenix, bomber and standard.

Phoenix are ground support craft, with anti-troop monomol web guns, and anti-tank lasers.

Most, if not all either craft have holofields, energy shields etc. There are speed numbers given in the old Imperial armour update of estimated 3100kph, I consider these low end, as Vampires are Orbital assault landers, and have to not only achieve orbit, but fight in space. if a crappy chaos fighter is hypersonic in atmosphere, theres no way in hell an Eldar ship can be anything less.
more in a bit.

[Thirdfain]

Try "because the droids also had a lot of infantry that needed to be killed" and also "because the droids heavy weapons (spiders and hailfires) fill the role of armor, or artillery, not heavy machine guns."

You dipshit, do you even know what the difference is between infantry support weapons and armored vehicles?

What is in question is the capacity of their air support to annihilate enemy targets in a timely fashion. I just pointed out that if they failed to do so versus their armored targets in the movie, why would the succeed against dug in heavy weapons? Especially considering that the Eldar are fielding fighters, which at this point, the Clones are not shown to have?

Um, right. The Kaminoans refer to "our training program" and "one of the finest clone armies we ever developed" They obviously had to train those other armies somehow. Jango is a bounty hunter, how is he supposed to be off trying to kill Padme and train clones at the same time?

Did you even WATCH the movie? Jango used a catspaw to go after Padme while he trained the clones. As for previous clone armies, well, keep in mind that these guys weren't even on the maps. They can't have been pumping out huge numbers of clone armies before Sifo-Dyas, or someone would notice- "Hey, wasn't there a cloning center producing large and effective armies over there?"

Which you have no evidence for other than "Clones training sucked because they used shitty tactics because their training sucked"

I have visual, canon evidence both of their poor tactics and their poor source of training. You on the other hand, have nothing besides handwaving.

Because they were assaulting prepared defensive positions, which the droids did not have. Where are you getting this bizarre idea that clones completely lack the ability to exercise normal human capacity to analyze a situation and change a course of action.

They exhibit the EXACT SAME doctorine again and again during the Clone Wars cartoon. I dunno, maybe I get the idea from the screen, where Lucas and those he employs placed it?

I didn't say tactics developed in Episode III, I was pinting out that we might get more information on clones in general than just one battle.

We've seen a half dozen battles. Their tactics remain the same.

Which means the SPHA-Ts will have to be employed against the Eldar maneuver elements.

The Clones lack ballistic artillary. Concession accepted.

Already showed Jango didn't train them, and more of your nonsense

You've shown jack shit. In fact:

Maybe they weren't blitizing because of the limitations of their walkers in terms of speed and maneuverability. They didn't need to advance by section with covering fire because they were able to fire effectively while moving.

So their armor sucks, and your second point completely fails to address the fact that they are sitting ducks in the open field.

Oh, and when the Clones attack the prepared position at Muunilist, they use the exact same tactics.

True, but which does not rob them of basic human problem-solving skills.

Doctorines don't change over the course of a single, short battle. If you think otherwise, well, you're a retard.

The burden of proof is on you, SVPD, to show that their ridiculously poor tactics were dictated by some mission objective which made moving under cover, advancing by unit, or going prone non-advantageous. Do so, or remove your argument that they had some legitimate tactical reason for their fighting style.

[SVPD]

What is in question is the capacity of their air support to annihilate enemy targets in a timely fashion. I just pointed out that if they failed to do so versus their armored targets in the movie, why would the succeed against dug in heavy weapons? Especially considering that the Eldar are fielding fighters, which at this point, the Clones are not shown to have?

In case you hadn't notice the air support does quite well at killing the armored droids. We see at LEAST 3 hailfires knocked out by gunships. Furthermore, dug in positions may be better protected, but they will also be stationary.

Did you even WATCH the movie? Jango used a catspaw to go after Padme while he trained the clones. As for previous clone armies, well, keep in mind that these guys weren't even on the maps. They can't have been pumping out huge numbers of clone armies before Sifo-Dyas, or someone would notice- "Hey, wasn't there a cloning center producing large and effective armies over there?"

I certainly did. YOU however obviously didn't or you would have noticed when Jango killed the catspaw when it failed. I also never claimed that the previous clone armies were large, just that they had created them, and must have been successful, since it was the planet's export product, and they didn't seem impoverished

I have visual, canon evidence both of their poor tactics and their poor source of training. You on the other hand, have nothing besides handwaving.

The only handwaving going on here is you trying to make a thicker smokescreen. The ONLY canon evidence you have is for clone soldiers making an infantry advance against an inferior foe, which was obviously working, and therefore is NOT evidence of poor tactics.

You cannot derive poor tactics from what was seen onscreen. If they'd lost, or suffered horrendous casulaties, then yes, but they didn't, so you are shit out of luck.

They exhibit the EXACT SAME doctorine again and again during the Clone Wars cartoon. I dunno, maybe I get the idea from the screen, where Lucas and those he employs placed it?

Nice flip-flop. You didn't want me dragging in the episode III evidence, but you want to bring in the cartoons? Horseshit. stick to one set of rules there, jock-o

I didn't say tactics developed in Episode III, I was pinting out that we might get more information on clones in general than just one battle.

Where have we seen this half-dozen battles? They aren't in Episode II, and since you want so badly to stick to that, let's stick to that.

The Clones lack ballistic artillary. Concession accepted.

Since I never contended that the clones had ballistic artillery, and I also said the SPHA-T was a little silly as their sole artillery weapon, I fail to see where you get any concession from. Nice distortion.

You've shown jack shit. In fact:

I've shown that you employ circular logic, ignore evidence that you find inconvenient (i.e. effectiveness of the clone's tactics, and the fact that they shoot accurately while moving)

So their armor sucks, and your second point completely fails to address the fact that they are sitting ducks in the open field.

We're not discussing whether the armored vehicles they have are an effective design. Given it's apparent limitations, the manner in which they employ it is appropriate.

Furthermore, soldiers who are able to move and shoot accurately at the same time are far less "sitting ducks" than those who cannot shoot, or even than those that simply spray suppresive fire.

Oh, and when the Clones attack the prepared position at Muunilist, they use the exact same tactics.

stick to episode II there, ding-dong

Doctorines don't change over the course of a single, short battle. If you think otherwise, well, you're a retard.

You obviously don't know the difference between "changing doctrine" and "making intelligent decisions based on the situation". Quit trying to throw out military terms that you don't know how to use.

The burden of proof is on you, SVPD, to show that their ridiculously poor tactics were dictated by some mission objective which made moving under cover, advancing by unit, or going prone non-advantageous. Do so, or remove your argument that they had some legitimate tactical reason for their fighting style.

I did show that. They had very limited time to develop a battle plan prior to arriving at geonosis, they were fighting an inferior opponent, and they were obviously concerned about quick advancement

Random Clone Officer: "All forward positions are advancing, sir"

Yoda: "Very Good"

Not only that, but the Geonosian leader was concerned with evading capture, as was Count Dooku, and it would have been a logical objective to capture the leaders of the sepratist movement.

For your idea that "The clones weren't using tactics appropriate to the situation" to work, we have to make some ridiculous leaps of imagination:

1) They deployed to Geonosis with no objectives at all, beyond "lets rescue Padme, Obi-Wan, and Anakin, and then shoot up some droids for kicks afterwards"

2) Despite the fact that the army had been 10 years in development, despite the fact that the Kaminoans were "proud of their training program", despite that the clones showed proficiency with their equipment and discipline under fire (hallmarks of good training), that we are to somehow assume that in all that 10 years it never occured to ANYONE to teach them to do anything but WALK FORWARD IN A STRAIGHT FUCKING LINE! Is the star wars galaxy populated entirely by morons in your little oversimplified world?

3) Their genetic material came from Jango Fett, they are clones of him, so if they're too fucking stupid to learn from experience or to learn anything useful in 10 years of training, doesn't that make Jango a blinding idiot as well?

4) If we accept the idea that Jango was training them (which he was probably involved in, although I doubt he was running the whole show; if he was he'd have no time for bounty hunting) then we somehow accept that for 10 YEARS the Kaminoans have been paying this guy to train people to WALK IN STRAIGHT LINES!! You can teach brand new recruits to do this stuff in an hour!

But somehow you presist in the fantasy that in the midst of casualties, or lack of success the clones wouldn't even think to take cover, wouldn't utilize their communications, wouldn't bother to do ANYTHING but rush blindly to their deaths!

Preposterous.

Give it up. You made an oversimplified analysis of the movie, used circular logic to justify it, you can't refute the fact that the clones one, and you have tried to change what evidence can be introduced to cover your sorry ass.

I've totally refuted your idea, so find me some proof that the clones CANT exercise normal human responsiveness to a situation. Not just a repetition of "we see them do it in this situation so they must do it in all situations"

[Nephtys]

What is in question is the capacity of their air support to annihilate enemy targets in a timely fashion. I just pointed out that if they failed to do so versus their armored targets in the movie, why would the succeed against dug in heavy weapons? Especially considering that the Eldar are fielding fighters, which at this point, the Clones are not shown to have?

In case you hadn't notice the air support does quite well at killing the armored droids. We see at LEAST 3 hailfires knocked out by gunships. Furthermore, dug in positions may be better protected, but they will also be stationary.

That is, using gunship/transports with total air superiority due to lack of enemy aircraft. A transport is going to get ANNHILIATED by dedicated aerospace fighters. Aren't Eldar tanks flight capable like the gunships too, anyway?

They exhibit the EXACT SAME doctorine again and again during the Clone Wars cartoon. I dunno, maybe I get the idea from the screen, where Lucas and those he employs placed it?

Nice flip-flop. You didn't want me dragging in the episode III evidence, but you want to bring in the cartoons? Horseshit. stick to one set of rules there, jock-o

I think Thirdfain is right to bring up that stuff. It's from the cartoon, sure. But it shows things have NOT dramatically improved, so that what happened at Genosis seems to be SOP, and the Clones will do that anyway. Episode III does not count if they've improved drastically in tactics, but the Clone Wars cartoons thus show that they haven't exactly done much different. Thus, it's more likely to be standard doctrine to attack like that.

Oh, and when the Clones attack the prepared position at Muunilist, they use the exact same tactics.

stick to episode II there, ding-dong

Again, it illustrates another situation using the same tactics. Ergo, if it works here, and is used in a totally different situation in the near future, it's not likely they have another combat doctrine. OR, that they're too unwieldly to deploy in another manner easilly, which accomplishes the same thing.

Doctorines don't change over the course of a single, short battle. If you think otherwise, well, you're a retard.

You obviously don't know the difference between "changing doctrine" and "making intelligent decisions based on the situation". Quit trying to throw out military terms that you don't know how to use.

Advancing in file at the enemy is pretty stupid, especially if 100 percent of your force is air-mobile. And considering the really pathetic defenses at the CIS Command bunker, they could have probably just held off the droids and sent in a few units of ARCs or something after them using an acclamator.

2) Despite the fact that the army had been 10 years in development, despite the fact that the Kaminoans were "proud of their training program", despite that the clones showed proficiency with their equipment and discipline under fire (hallmarks of good training), that we are to somehow assume that in all that 10 years it never occured to ANYONE to teach them to do anything but WALK FORWARD IN A STRAIGHT FUCKING LINE! Is the star wars galaxy populated entirely by morons in your little oversimplified world?

I'm sure they can take cover and such. I do believe Thirdfain said that their large-scale doctrine is what's explaining why they move like a human wave. Their density is pretty high after all in the AOTC section of Genosis...

[SylasGaunt]

Advancing in file at the enemy is pretty stupid, especially if 100 percent of your force is air-mobile. And considering the really pathetic defenses at the CIS Command bunker, they could have probably just held off the droids and sent in a few units of ARCs or something after them using an acclamator.

Minor nitpick, the ARC troopers were still in cold sleep during Geonosis.

[SVPD]

That is, using gunship/transports with total air superiority due to lack of enemy aircraft. A transport is going to get ANNHILIATED by dedicated aerospace fighters. Aren't Eldar tanks flight capable like the gunships too, anyway?

Did you miss the presence of the Acclamators?

There's also the fact that the Geonosians had plenty of starfighters, they just never got off the ground. How come we're giving the Eldar starfighters for free? How come they're getting time to prepare dug-in positions? The robots didn't have time, how come we're rigging the battle to favor the Eldar? They're going to do way better than the robots already, why give them special privliges.

You also totally ignore the ability of the AT-TEs to bombard dug-in weapons from long range.

I think Thirdfain is right to bring up that stuff. It's from the cartoon, sure. But it shows things have NOT dramatically improved, so that what happened at Genosis seems to be SOP, and the Clones will do that anyway. Episode III does not count if they've improved drastically in tactics, but the Clone Wars cartoons thus show that they haven't exactly done much different. Thus, it's more likely to be standard doctrine to attack like that.

So it's ok for him to bring up the cartoons since they support his position, but Episode III "doesn't count" if it shows they improved?! Episode III is a canon film, it vastly outranks the cartoons. If I can't bring up Episode II, the cartoons can't be brought in either. Period.

Again, it illustrates another situation using the same tactics. Ergo, if it works here, and is used in a totally different situation in the near future, it's not likely they have another combat doctrine. OR, that they're too unwieldly to deploy in another manner easilly, which accomplishes the same thing.

See above.

Also, you people seem to have a problem understanding the difference between doctrine and tactics

Doctrine would be something like the Soviet steamroller method of "Attack everywhere until you find a weak spot, then concentrate your forces to create a breach there. Reinforce success, do not reinforce failure."

Tactics would be something like "1/113th MRB attacks as the main effort with 2/113 MRB and 3/113 MRB in support" to stay with the Soviet example (MRB= motorized rifle battalion) and using a 1-up 2-back appraoch, or tactic.

Clone doctrine for the offense is, apparently, infantry assault, supported by armored firing platforms (AT-TE) and air support (gunships and acclamators). This is a practical doctrine for them because their soldiers can shoot accurately while advancing, as we saw from the failure of the droids to reach the clone lines.

Clone tactics are to advance ina line, 1 man behind the next. This gives good flank fields of fire, and reduces the target front they present to the enemy.

While doctrine cannot be changed in mid-fight, tactics can. That is, after all, the reason for having radios. Do you really think that real soldiers, in the face of serious opposition or casualties, do not make appropriate changes? They don't just stand there, taking fire saying "well, we can't change doctrine"

Advancing in file at the enemy is pretty stupid, especially if 100 percent of your force is air-mobile. And considering the really pathetic defenses at the CIS Command bunker, they could have probably just held off the droids and sent in a few units of ARCs or something after them using an acclamator.

It's also pretty stupid to keep your infantry aboard transports and fly straight into SAM fire from Hailfire droids. Did you miss the gunship next to Mace Windu's getting shot down at the start of the battle?

Also, as SylasGaunt pointed out, they didn't HAVE ARC troopers

I'm sure they can take cover and such. I do believe Thirdfain said that their large-scale doctrine is what's explaining why they move like a human wave. Their density is pretty high after all in the AOTC section of Genosis...

I have no problem with the propsition that their doctrine makes them move like that. I have a problem with the idea that it's due to a lack of tactical skill that makes them do it. It obviously worked quite well at Geonosis, and their infantry was capable of laying down effective fire while doing it.

It's a vast oversimplification to reduce it to "they're a bunch of morons who have no training"

[white_rabbit]

How come we're giving the Eldar starfighters for free?

I'm "not" giving the Eldar starfighters, the Eldar craft mentioned are their primary atmospheric fighters. Space fighters are usually larger, more heavily armed and protected, essentially more capable in most ways.

LAATs on Geonosis provided close air support, are equipped for anti-air efforts with air-air weaponry and provide a powerful anti-armour punch, as well as deploying troops and vehicles in the case of the "C" varient.

If you think the advantage is so overwhelming (i.e. that with Eldar air support in play at all the Clonies would lose.) Then your opinion is the Clonies would lose. *shrug*

Hell, forget the Phoenix and Nightwing then, just the Vampire, a troop deploying gunship, with various weaponry.

How come they're getting time to prepare dug-in positions? The robots didn't have time, how come we're rigging the battle to favor the Eldar? They're going to do way better than the robots already, why give them special privliges.

Where the hell is this stated ? besides, I doubt the Eldar would be fighting from dug in positions, ALL their heavy support is mobile to some degree. and their heaviest artillery is mounted on a 100kph+ tank.