Scenario: SW Galactic Empire vs. WH:40K Imperium of Man

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Post by Petrosjko » 2005-01-08 08:21pm

The protracted nature of the engagement really does make one curious as to how the Imperials would deal with potential chaotic and genestealer infiltration while busy pulling off a grinding seige. They have no experience with either, and none of the security mechanisms for dealing with them that the Imperium does.

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Post by Dark Hellion » 2005-01-08 08:45pm

The protracted nature of the engagement really does make one curious as to how the Imperials would deal with potential chaotic and genestealer infiltration while busy pulling off a grinding seige. They have no experience with either, and none of the security mechanisms for dealing with them that the Imperium does.
You mean especially with the fact that over half of the galaxy is going to be charging headlong at Terra, the Imperials to defend it at all costs, and Chaos to conquer the weakened planet at all costs.
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Post by Uraniun235 » 2005-01-08 09:14pm

As for the one asking about Darktroopers, they're dead. The Dark Troopersthemselves died in Dark Empire, and the Darktrooper Droids/Powersuits were destroyed in their game.

Unless we're assuming that didn't happen for this. In which case, Space Marines are gonna be shown what real uber-powerarmour wanking is.
No, no such assumption, I was just unaware of their demise. Thank you.
Dark Hellion wrote:It is a fortress, every fortress in 40k has adamantium or better for armour.
What sort of punishment can adamantium absorb?
...and hardened groups of superhumans, some of whom can vaporize you with a sidelong glance.
Please provide evidence to support this.
yadda yadda yadda, Terra is a fortress planet
I really suspect that everything except the palace can safely be glassed.
yadda yadda yadda, Terrans are badass fanatics, you'd have to kill them all
I see no inherent problems with this, nor with murdering every last human on Earth. If you can demonstrate that Imperial tactics and technology would be unable to cope with the tactics and technology of the Imperium, please do so.
The amount of forces they will lose would be completely unnacceptable to any commander you could possibly find.
I suspect Darth Vader would not have a problem sending billions of men to their deaths to achieve Palpatine's objective. Worst case, Vader has to wave his hand in front of a few commanders and say "Capturing their emperor is in the Empire's best interests."
The protracted nature of the engagement really does make one curious as to how the Imperials would deal with potential chaotic and genestealer infiltration while busy pulling off a grinding seige.
Please elaborate on the nature of these 'genestealers'. What do they do?
You mean especially with the fact that over half of the galaxy is going to be charging headlong at Terra, the Imperials to defend it at all costs, and Chaos to conquer the weakened planet at all costs.
I was under the impression that long-range communication was not always reliable, and that it took a full year to cross the galaxy on a good day.

Besides, would the Imperium retaliatory forces not gather first, to try and ensure any strike is a decisively victorious one? If they don't, they're likely to get chewed up piecemeal by the Empire (who, by the time they arrive, will likely have reinforced their invasion fleet all to hell and back in preparation for a massive Imperium counter-push).

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Post by fgalkin » 2005-01-08 09:35pm

I have a question: wouldn't the Empire be fucked over heavily by Chaos and the other 40 Warp thingys?

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Post by Petrosjko » 2005-01-08 09:37pm

Dark Hellion wrote:You mean especially with the fact that over half of the galaxy is going to be charging headlong at Terra, the Imperials to defend it at all costs, and Chaos to conquer the weakened planet at all costs.
Oh, I would think that especially the chaos powers would be quite interested in the possibilities that Imperial(SW) tech represents.

Uraniun- The genestealers are an alien species that infiltrates other species by means of interbreeding with members of said species and slowly, carefully subverting their beliefs. They're pretty fierce hand to hand opponents, but their real threat lies in the way they subvert populations, creating cults that honor their own leaders.

Now, if the fleet just stays in orbit and bombards the shit out of Terra, they're probably safe from the genestealers. But if they start putting down roots anywhere where they can slip in... things could get interesting.

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Post by Petrosjko » 2005-01-08 09:38pm

fgalkin wrote:I have a question: wouldn't the Empire be fucked over heavily by Chaos and the other 40 Warp thingys?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
Very much a possibility, yes.

An interesting question would be if psyker-type abilities begin manifesting among Imperials once they're exposed to the near-warp environment of 40K. That could get righteously ugly.

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Post by Dark Hellion » 2005-01-08 09:46pm

Adamantium can take shitload of punishment. Thick enough hulls of it can survive GT or even TT level explosions (naval battles are a testimate to this)
The vaporize with a sidelong glance is typical of Psykers and appears in such places as WD and novels like Dawn of War. A mid level Psyker has enough power in him to atomize a 100m tall Leviathan Command transport, and Terra has many, many high level psykers, such as Librarians and Inquisitors.
The Palace you state as not vaporizing is the size of Europe by the way. Actually it is built into Europe until land and fortress is indistiguishable. And it is connected like this to the rest of the planet. If Coruscant is a city planet, Terra is a Fortress Planet, there is no earth left, only armour. And glassing the surface isn't enough, most of the population of any Hive World like Terra live under the surface. You have to blow miles through multiple layers of Void shielding and Armour to get them all. Of course, the empires most likely course of action will soften the enemy up with orbital bombardment, and then send down the initial landing elements. When these get chewed up and spit out by the meatgrinder that is a fortress world, the empire will probably rebombard, but by now, the Imperial Palace is fortified even moreso, making it harder to fight.
I don't doubt that the GE both can do it, and has the stomach for it. I am only stating that the scale of fanaticism and the loses that they have to endure are beyond anything that they would ever expect of a single planet.
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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius » 2005-01-08 10:01pm

Petrosjko wrote:
fgalkin wrote:I have a question: wouldn't the Empire be fucked over heavily by Chaos and the other 40 Warp thingys?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
Very much a possibility, yes.

An interesting question would be if psyker-type abilities begin manifesting among Imperials once they're exposed to the near-warp environment of 40K. That could get righteously ugly.
That does bring up another issue - if the siege is drawn out long enough (which I think we have debated to death by this point - bodies stacked sky-high), eventually Chaos cults are going to spring up amongst the Empire's ranks (yes, even Stormtroopers), at the very least. Should Petro's above issue take shape... Palpy had best find a way to destroy the entire invasion force and seal off the rift between galaxies post-haste. There is a reason the Imperium is so ridiculously brutal and merciless when it comes to heretics and anyone so much as suspected of daemonic influence.

There's an entire chapter or two in the first half of Malleus that illustrates the tip of the iceberg of these horrors quite nicely.
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Post by Petrosjko » 2005-01-08 10:13pm

Man man man, the forces of chaos equipped with GE starships and FTL. That's a righteously scary thought.

Thing to remember is that the majority of the chaos arsenal isn't from anything they've produced, but from what they've stolen or usurped. That is their game, and they are masters at it.

I mean, outside of the potential that the Sith could detect taint, how would the GE even figure out who has been possessed? They can't do the usual 'holy relic' check the Imperium does...

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Post by Mutant Headcrab » 2005-01-09 12:36am

Assuming he makes it through the ordeal, do you think Vader himself would be succeptible to the whispers of the Chaos gods? If so, which God do you think would court him the most? Given his ferocity and desire for power, I would imagine that Khorne would love to have such a being. Of course, Tzeentch would always appreciate a new form of psyker amongst his forces and learn more of the Force.

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Post by Currald » 2005-01-09 01:40am

I seriously doubt that the GE forces' morale would hold up as hundreds of millions of their fellow soldiers go into the Palace and never return, and for what? The IoM would be fighting for their home, their god, and their existence. The GE would be fighting a war to invade another universe, one which they neither need nor want. It wouldn't take long for someone to "frag" Vader.
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Post by Falkenhayn » 2005-01-09 01:59am

Using the numbers provided by Sabbat Martyr, and known dimensions of IoM torpedoes, I've calced them out to the 3E23 range.

Then again, Necro has told me that that there are just as reliable sources that place the fastest IoM ship at .06c.
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Post by Petrosjko » 2005-01-09 04:22am

Mutant Headcrab wrote:Assuming he makes it through the ordeal, do you think Vader himself would be succeptible to the whispers of the Chaos gods? If so, which God do you think would court him the most? Given his ferocity and desire for power, I would imagine that Khorne would love to have such a being. Of course, Tzeentch would always appreciate a new form of psyker amongst his forces and learn more of the Force.
Horus fell, as did the other traitor Primarchs. More on Vader's level, Quixos fell, and Eisenhorn quasi-fell, knowing full well the nature of the enemy. Vader, fucked up as he was and unaware of the nature of Chaos, would probably fall a lot more easily. He has his issues with Palpatine to be played on, after all.

So yes, Vader would be vulnerable. I'd figure him for Tzeentch, most likely. Tzeentch takes the most Sith-like approach to affairs.

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Post by PeZook » 2005-01-09 04:43am

Uraniun235 wrote: I was under the impression that long-range communication was not always reliable, and that it took a full year to cross the galaxy on a good day.
Long range comms are basically specially prepared psykers, who send out short communicates through the Warp. It's faster than light, but not instant, and suspectible to things like warp storms.

And it takes between six to forty years of real time to cross the Imperium (which is 75 thousand light years across), according to White Dwarf 139 and 140.

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Post by Black Admiral » 2005-01-09 05:21am

WRT Librarian psychic powers:
Iron Hands, page 159 wrote:With a cry of, "For Ferrus and Medusa!" Librarian Melchor, his bald head and psy-sensitive hood crackling with lambent lightning, turned on a Plague Marine with slime dripping from its breathing tube and, in a blaze of magnesium bright light, obiliterated the disease-ridden abomination with a single blast of thought.
Dawn of War, page 116 wrote:Pulses of lightning jousted out from his [Isador's] fingertips, frying orks as they dived for him or incinerating them as they tried to make clear shots in the densely packed muddle of greenskins.
There's other stuff, but those are the most obvious examples of a Librarian's offensive psychic powers.
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Post by Gunhead » 2005-01-09 06:20am

Here's a fun thought, wouldn't the chaos powers help GE to capture the emperor? I mean by their logic they could corrupt them after it, and it would be easier since they'd be on the "same" side. I'd say atleast Tzeencht would be happy 'cos he's the lord of change.


This psyker wanking still means dick when talking about armies made of millions of people. Indidually they may be tough, but are not powerful enough to take on armies. There isn't a whole lot of them either.

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Post by NecronLord » 2005-01-09 07:10am

Currald wrote:I seriously doubt that the GE forces' morale would hold up as hundreds of millions of their fellow soldiers go into the Palace and never return, and for what? The IoM would be fighting for their home, their god, and their existence. The GE would be fighting a war to invade another universe, one which they neither need nor want. It wouldn't take long for someone to "frag" Vader.
Especially given that, as soon as the Emperor realises what's going on, Vader can lean between his legs and use that shiny respirator to kiss his ass goodbye. The Emperor's powers are so far beyond his that it isn't even funny. The greatest ever sith lords fucked over stars, in the barely canon comics. The Storm of the Emperor's Wrath is still, thousands of years after he started it, hundreds of light years across, and consumes starships like the stereotypical englishman drinks tea.
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Post by Gunhead » 2005-01-09 07:48am

And we've seen evidence of this great fury of the emperor.... when?
Since he beat Horus what has the emperor done except been braindead?
Everybody talks about how the Emperor of man can deliver the smackdown on anybody but what has he actually done after the defeat of Horus?

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Post by Black Admiral » 2005-01-09 07:54am

Gunhead wrote:Everybody talks about how the Emperor of man can deliver the smackdown on anybody but what has he actually done after the defeat of Horus?

-Gunhead
Off the top of my head, keeping a very close eye on certain of Gaunt's Ghosts (including sending angels to make sure that they fufill their assigned roles), looking after "Zealot" Zane and Ragnar, and restraining the powers of the Chaos Gods.
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Post by DocHorror » 2005-01-09 07:55am

The Storm of the Emperors Wrath destroyed a traitor fleet during the Age of Aposty, thus allowing Sebastian Thor to reach Terra and put a stop to Vandire's 'Reign of Terror'(TM).
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Post by Gunhead » 2005-01-09 09:38am

Well neither of those examples is nothing an EU sith/jedi/whatnot hasn't done. As to the "has kept the chaosgods at bay", isn't the warp where they naturally exist? So all gods would be more powerful in the warp but require a physical manifestation to exist in the real world.

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Post by NecronLord » 2005-01-09 09:47am

Gunhead wrote:Well neither of those examples is nothing an EU sith/jedi/whatnot hasn't done.
Hah hahahahahahahaha. You're trying to make me bust a gut, yes? The storm of wrath consumed an entire fleet, plunging it into a dimension where the laws of physics are mutable, controlled by the unchained emotions of humanity and other organic species. It cut off vast swathes of space and annihalates ships millenia after it started. Jediwank - contradicted in part by canon - from the EU does not compare.
As to the "has kept the chaosgods at bay", isn't the warp where they naturally exist? So all gods would be more powerful in the warp but require a physical manifestation to exist in the real world.

-Gunhead
The Storm of Wrath is so collosal it apparers on a fucking galactic map printed on A4 as hundreds of light years across. I can get you a picture if you want, but not a full scan. The best an EU jedi has done is dick with a single star system. The most powerful thing the force has ever been hinted at being capable of is causing a supernova (Jedi Knight) - the storm of wrath is many times more powerful.

He is vastly - no - incredibly more powerful than Darth Vader or any Jedi who ever has or ever will live, with the possible exception of Valley-of-the-Jedi fuelled Jerec, which never happened.
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Post by Gunhead » 2005-01-09 09:59am

The Storm of Wrath is so collosal it apparers on a fucking galactic map printed on A4 as hundreds of light years across. I can get you a picture if you want, but not a full scan. The best an EU jedi has done is dick with a single star system. The most powerful thing the force has ever been hinted at being capable of is causing a supernova (Jedi Knight) - the storm of wrath is many times more powerful.

He is vastly - no - incredibly more powerful than Darth Vader or any Jedi who ever has or ever will live, with the possible exception of Valley-of-the-Jedi fuelled Jerec, which never happened.[/quote]

Where is it stated that the Storm of Wrath is hundreds of ly across, and if it's so powerful why doesn't he take out say the hive fleet? Or some other big baddie in the 40K universe? Yeah actually a pic would be nice I like pictures.

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Post by NecronLord » 2005-01-09 10:01am

Put it this way. The Average 40K combat psyker has powers that outclass the canonical powers of Palpatine. RotS spoiler Lucas has effectively stated his intention to decanonise all this force storm nonsense by stating that the fight Palpatine takes part in in RotS will be his absoloute limit... and given that said fight isn't going to be pumping out teratons of firepower... This guy is a GOD compared to them. He is at a power level where he can kill them with a word...

Another example, the very words of a high demon prince of Tzeench obliterated a continent, without the thing even wanting to. The emperor outclasses Tzeench himself.
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Post by NecronLord » 2005-01-09 10:03am

Gunhead wrote: Where is it stated that the Storm of Wrath is hundreds of ly across, and if it's so powerful why doesn't he take out say the hive fleet? Or some other big baddie in the 40K universe? Yeah actually a pic would be nice I like pictures.

-Gunhead
The hive mind itself is a warp god. It dampens the effectiveness of all psykers.

The big baddies have protection. He did this as a last resort against the destruction of his empire.

Pic forthcoming.
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