Scenario: SW Galactic Empire vs. WH:40K Imperium of Man

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Connor MacLeod
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2005-02-14 12:35am

Lost Soal wrote: The argument is over wheather Plasteel is just a lighter version of steel with the same resistance capabilities or if its so many times stronger. Unfortunately since most heavy weapons will be judged on their ability to penetrate said armour, this is a rather crucial point.
I'm still not sure what the problem is. I've already postulated that their materials science is probably close to, but not beyond, an order of magnitude more than what is achievable today. Gunhead seems to be basically saying the same thing. I don't see why this is a problem, since all it means is that if there are problems with other weapons (IE lasguns or whatnot), then the effectiveness of those defenses are based on means *other* than simply a denser huull with higher strength and thermal properties (like SW armor.) - be that superconducting hulls, ablation, reactive armor, composites, force-field reinforcecment, energy absorption/retransmitting networks, shiny or reflective hulls, etc. Hell, that bit about compartmentalization can be perfectly valid too.
A Lascannon functions the same as a lasgun just with a much bigger power pack and energy release. There is zero mention of it being a diferent type of laser other that its release method, long beam instead of pulses,
All that tells us is that the cannon versions are perhaps similar in operation to the personal ones. It doesnt tell us what KIND of laser it is - there are lots of different kinds (both in terms of the frequency they operate in, and the way in which the laser is generated. Is it an X-ray laser or a UV laser? A chemical laser, free electron laser, or a bomb-pumped laser?)
Lasgun concentration is covered by the Hotshot Lasgun which expells the entire energy cell in one shot and is still virtually useless against tanks. I say virtually as snipers have been show capable of shooting through vision slits to kill crew members.
Expending it in "one shot" doesnt tell us the duration. A "shot" could conceivably last as long as a few seconds, or a millisecond. Hell, even a one second "duration" can be different if we're talking about weapons that deliver their energy in tenths of a second (like a TL or laser cannon.)

IIRC there are examples of lasguns performing "cutting" effects, which generally suggests that they operate in a sustained manner (in personal mode at least, if not the cannon variants as well.)

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Post by Gunhead » 2005-02-14 06:32am

Land raider armor is the best by terms of weight to strenght. Titans can use lower tech armor in much greater quantaties (and they do need lot of it) because they have to use gravitic nullifiers and the like just to keep the titan from sinking to the ground. Titans are already dependent on high tech to function so mass is not their biggest problem.

Based on the numbers I've given, best IoM armor (on a land vehicle) is about 1/3 stronger than the best we can produce today. Chobham is roughly 3 times stronger that armor steel. If that's not enough well too bad.

The IoM on countless occasions uses the low tech solution, because it's easier (They use humans to swivel their turrets around on spcaceships for fucks sake). But still somehow their very basic armor has to be teh uber.

Then there's the meltagun that has a great effect on ice. So ok, how do we know how easy it is to agitate atoms in heavy metals? It blasts off some sort of radiation, how much is deflected? How coherent is the beam? The man blasting the ice was standing pretty close to the ice, and the weapon is said to suffer from poor range. Quite a few variables there. What about standoff armor?

Normal IG AT-missiles are HEAT this has been confirmed by at least two sources. Normal armor steel resists HEAT weapons when thick enough so I don't have to explain this one.

One little note on lasguns, in the inquisitor RPG there was a description of las weapons that they fire a beam of light combined with particles. Blasters anyone. :wink:

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Post by Black Admiral » 2005-02-14 08:27am

Connor MacLeod wrote:All that tells us is that the cannon versions are perhaps similar in operation to the personal ones. It doesnt tell us what KIND of laser it is - there are lots of different kinds (both in terms of the frequency they operate in, and the way in which the laser is generated. Is it an X-ray laser or a UV laser? A chemical laser, free electron laser, or a bomb-pumped laser?)
Ghostmaker refers to laspistols as "voiding inert gases" after expending their power cells if that's any help. And Kage describes lasbolts as "beams of compressed light" (although since he's not a technician that's possibly inaccurate).
Expending it in "one shot" doesnt tell us the duration. A "shot" could conceivably last as long as a few seconds, or a millisecond. Hell, even a one second "duration" can be different if we're talking about weapons that deliver their energy in tenths of a second (like a TL or laser cannon.)
Don't think there's any definite statement as to how long a lasgun pulse takes.
IIRC there are examples of lasguns performing "cutting" effects, which generally suggests that they operate in a sustained manner (in personal mode at least, if not the cannon variants as well.)
On full auto they do that, since full auto's a beam. In single-shot mode (prefered, since full-auto's hell on the barrel), lasgun rounds tend to punch through the target (and quite likely three or four people behind said unfortunate).

Basic rule is, on lower settings lasguns punch through a target. On higher ones, or if we're dealing with hellguns and hot-shot packs, they act like SW blasters.
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Post by NecronLord » 2005-02-14 08:36am

Black Admiral wrote: Don't think there's any definite statement as to how long a lasgun pulse takes.
IIUP gives it a cyclical rate of fire of 220 RPM. This means that each shot has got to be around 0.25 seconds.
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Post by Gunhead » 2005-02-14 08:41am

I know some descriptions of lascannons say they fire out a beam that lasts long enough to observed. 1 or 2 seconds maybe.

Can lasgun bolts be seen in flight? I've seen mentions they could, but these were vague at best. Other than that I think lasguns do damage by forming a pulse which then burns through the target.

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Post by Black Admiral » 2005-02-14 08:54am

Gunhead wrote:I know some descriptions of lascannons say they fire out a beam that lasts long enough to observed. 1 or 2 seconds maybe.

Can lasgun bolts be seen in flight? I've seen mentions they could, but these were vague at best. Other than that I think lasguns do damage by forming a pulse which then burns through the target.

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They're visible as beams, and ocassionally as bolts.
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Post by Gunhead » 2005-02-14 09:08am

That makes them a bit blasterish weapons, which is not necessarily a bad thing.
Out of curiosity, what color are those lasgun bolts? Has it been mentioned?
Lascannon beams are bluish me thinks.

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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius » 2005-02-14 09:34am

They're generally depicted as blue and red.
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Post by NecronLord » 2005-02-14 10:08am

There is no visual beam for a lasgun. At least, not in most of the artwork I've seen.
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Post by Lost Soal » 2005-02-14 10:32am

I would say that a Hotshot has to be less than a second in duration. They are employed as sniper rifles and a continuous visible beam lasting a second or more would be suicidal for the sniper as most of the guns in the area would be shooting at him after the first shot.
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Post by Falkenhayn » 2005-02-14 05:23pm

http://www.ciphergames.com/media/imageIG.jpg

The effect has more in common with a muzzle flash.

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2005-02-15 02:00am

Black Admiral wrote: Ghostmaker refers to laspistols as "voiding inert gases" after expending their power cells if that's any help. And Kage describes lasbolts as "beams of compressed light" (although since he's not a technician that's possibly inaccurate).
Not sure. The gases might point to chemical lasers, or it might just be referring to the method of cooling. OTOH I'm doubting they're chemical lasers, though.

That doesn't neccecsarily tell us the frequency though (X-ray, UV, whatnot)
On full auto they do that, since full auto's a beam. In single-shot mode (prefered, since full-auto's hell on the barrel), lasgun rounds tend to punch through the target (and quite likely three or four people behind said unfortunate).
Maybe. I'm not sure that accounts for "output" settings though - I assume they can vary the output - so a continuous low-powered beam would not neccesarily be as much of a burden as a brief, high-powered burst. It also depends on how big of a hole the laser makes when it "punches through" it could be very penetrative with little actual damage being done to the surrounding taget.

IIRC for example, some pages back there was that "brick" example of blowing through a wall and that used a lasgun.. that was for a sustained beam IIRC.

[quoe]
Basic rule is, on lower settings lasguns punch through a target. On higher ones, or if we're dealing with hellguns and hot-shot packs, they act like SW blasters.[/quote]

You mean blowing big chunks out of the target? That would suggest they don't penetrate as deeply (or act in a "cutting" manner.)

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Post by Black Admiral » 2005-02-15 07:45am

Connor MacLeod wrote:Not sure. The gases might point to chemical lasers, or it might just be referring to the method of cooling. OTOH I'm doubting they're chemical lasers, though.

That doesn't neccecsarily tell us the frequency though (X-ray, UV, whatnot)
True, but that's all the data I can recall offhand.
Maybe. I'm not sure that accounts for "output" settings though - I assume they can vary the output - so a continuous low-powered beam would not neccesarily be as much of a burden as a brief, high-powered burst. It also depends on how big of a hole the laser makes when it "punches through" it could be very penetrative with little actual damage being done to the surrounding taget.
That sounds about right, although lasrounds are considered much more lethal than bullets in equivalent terms (for instance, medic Dorden comments in Honour Guard that it's a damn good thing that a couple of injured troopers took bullets instead of lasrounds).
IIRC for example, some pages back there was that "brick" example of blowing through a wall and that used a lasgun.. that was for a sustained beam IIRC.
Yeah, short-pattern lascarbines, as opposed to the Guard issue battle rifle type ones. As far as the distinction between full and semi-auto, it seems like semi's pulses and full-auto's a beam.
You mean blowing big chunks out of the target? That would suggest they don't penetrate as deeply (or act in a "cutting" manner.)
Yeah. They tend to impart a lot of KE as well (in The Guns of Tanith a long-las shot knocked someone using a personal shield backwards without penetrating the shield).
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Post by Gunhead » 2005-02-15 09:00am

If IoM lascannons also impart KE with heat, they'd make far more effective armor piercing weapons. They'd actually be similar in function to a HEAT jet.
Just melting the armor isn't that great unless it can be done quickly enough so that the melting armor expands so rapidly it's effectively exploding into the tank. This is something I think the meltagun is supposed to do, under all that technobabble.

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Post by Lost Soal » 2005-02-15 09:07am

On a standard Las the power settings can be altered depending on the target.
There have been references to the fact that lasguns are super hot and cortirize the wound instantly. Some were able to keep coming because of this. Only the Hotshot was one shot one kill. Incidently Necropolis quotes the beam as being red.
Black Admiral wrote:That sounds about right, although lasrounds are considered much more lethal than bullets in equivalent terms (for instance, medic Dorden comments in Honour Guard that it's a damn good thing that a couple of injured troopers took bullets instead of lasrounds).
He was pleased because the bullets were stopped by their armour. Las fire in the same places would have penetrated
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Post by Black Admiral » 2005-02-15 09:19am

Lost Soal wrote:He was pleased because the bullets were stopped by their armour. Las fire in the same places would have penetrated
Actually that was in Straight Silver, when Mkoll's flak vest stopped a rifle round at point-blank.

The example I was thinking of in HG was when Greer shoots Bragg and Vamberfeld in the chest at close range, unarmoured. Dorden's comment on the subject is "Thank the Emperor the maniac wasn't packing a las."
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Post by Lost Soal » 2005-02-15 12:29pm

Black Admiral wrote:
Lost Soal wrote:He was pleased because the bullets were stopped by their armour. Las fire in the same places would have penetrated
Actually that was in Straight Silver, when Mkoll's flak vest stopped a rifle round at point-blank.

The example I was thinking of in HG was when Greer shoots Bragg and Vamberfeld in the chest at close range, unarmoured. Dorden's comment on the subject is "Thank the Emperor the maniac wasn't packing a las."
Oops. :oops: Forgot that one.

As an adendum the las fire must generate a temperature of at least 100 C as that is whats required to cautorise flesh.
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hmm

Post by jimthegray » 2005-02-15 05:05pm

we actually do not know that the GE can travel hperspace safely in th 40k verse, remember that pre slanesh the 40k universe had safe warp travel , u until the elder pee'ed in the pool.

it is possable that the GW would have the same issues the imperials have in hyperspace
Gunhead wrote:So the Emperor of man would allow the corruption of the imperial force and this would make sense how? So they'd get a form of travel that makes IoM ships look like a snails in a blizzard?
Also what tech makes IoM humans immune to the warp?

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Post by fgalkin » 2005-02-15 05:28pm

Except that the Warp and hyperspace are two completely different things, unaffected by each other.

Have a very nice day.
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hmm

Post by jimthegray » 2005-02-16 06:52pm

You know this because?



fgalkin wrote:Except that the Warp and hyperspace are two completely different things, unaffected by each other.

Have a very nice day.
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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius » 2005-02-16 07:36pm

What is it about this thread that attracts idiots? The Warp and hyperspace are not even remotely similar (unlike the Warp/psykers and the Force, which often bear a fair bit more than a passing resemblence). There's no reason or basis whatsoever to compare them, the only similarity is that they both facilitate FTL travel.
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Re: hmm

Post by Falkenhayn » 2005-02-16 08:03pm

jimthegray wrote:You know this because?



fgalkin wrote:Except that the Warp and hyperspace are two completely different things, unaffected by each other.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
How many Gods live in Hyperspace?
Do the laws of physics apply in Hyperspace?
Do Star Wars ships have to contend with demonic possession every time they jump?
Can certain individuals channel hyperspace to rip holes in space/time or summon beings of pure energy to do their bidding?

Come back when you fuckin know something.

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Post by TTMSHU » 2005-09-18 09:32am

Not sure. The gases might point to chemical lasers, or it might just be referring to the method of cooling. OTOH I'm doubting they're chemical lasers, though.

That doesn't neccecsarily tell us the frequency though (X-ray, UV, whatnot)
Definately not chemical,

the Imperial Infantry's Primer says that lasgun power packs can be recharged by putting them out in the sun or into a fire.
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Post by Ghost Rider » 2005-09-18 09:34am

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