Scenario: SW Galactic Empire vs. WH:40K Imperium of Man

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Post by Spiritbw » 2005-01-08 03:20pm

When the recharged defense batteries struck again less than a minute later, thier deadly beams exploded harmlessly against the Lunar class cruiser's now fully-restored void shields.
taken from page 204 of 'Execution hour' by Gordon Rennie

Course this happend before the Sabbat Worlds Crusade. Despite some in the Imperium not all technology is going backwards. Also I don't rember but did they give the ship classes in 'Sabbat Martyr'? I got the mpression at the time that the action in there was mostly escort class. Guess I have to read it again.[/i]

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Post by Spiritbw » 2005-01-08 03:29pm

Black Admiral wrote:Spiritbw: If we knew how much an Idolator-class raider massed, it might be possible to work out something from this scene in Deus Encarmine:
Deus Encarmine, page 80 wrote:The battle barge's hammer-shaped bow sported four massive gun tubes, each the length of a Cobra-class Imperial destroyer, and in a glare of violent discharge, all but one spat their death-loads at the raider. Each cannon was powerful enough to deal a shattering blow to void shields or hull armour, and to use them against a lighter ship like the Chaos raider was complete overkill. Shots from the first, second, and fourth guns - the third was still inoperable - savaged the vessel and opened it to vacuum. Unlike the Ogre Lord, whose crew had moments of screaming fear to understand what was happening to them, the raider simply ceased to exist.

In one murderous detonation of energy, steel and twisted bone-metals flashed to atoms and became gas; it was as if the ship had been flung into the heart of a star. Under Ideon's command, Bellus pushed on through the expanding wave front of the ship's vaporous remains and bore down on Dirge Eterna.
Hey, I might be able to get that for you! Just a moment........
Well, not quite. I got a quote from 'Execution hour' where it gives a Ifidel as being 100,000 tonnes. Unfortunatly it doesn't give us the number of shots fired int hsi case though it uses the same weapon which seems to me to be the bombardment cannons.

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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2005-01-08 03:33pm

And Infedal raider is more than a kilometer long. The dorsal weapons (the ones in question) on a battle barge are bombardment cannons and the description of them is consistent with how they operate (rail guns firing really powerful shells).
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Post by SirNitram » 2005-01-08 03:34pm

BTW, why are the Custodes Wankers assuming the walls are going to be left intact? When you're assaulting a position with millions of combat droids, you can just tear down the walls with cannonfire.

As for the one asking about Darktroopers, they're dead. The Dark Troopersthemselves died in Dark Empire, and the Darktrooper Droids/Powersuits were destroyed in their game.

Unless we're assuming that didn't happen for this. In which case, Space Marines are gonna be shown what real uber-powerarmour wanking is.
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Post by SirNitram » 2005-01-08 03:37pm

Imperial Overlord wrote:And Infedal raider is more than a kilometer long. The dorsal weapons (the ones in question) on a battle barge are bombardment cannons and the description of them is consistent with how they operate (rail guns firing really powerful shells).
...Railguns vaporizing things? Are you actually thinking this through?
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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2005-01-08 03:38pm

The palace is the size of Europe. You can't cause so mutch damage as to cause the whole thing to collapse without failing to take the Emperor alive.

Of course the Impies can blow holes in walls. Some of the corridors are going to be huge as well. But that doesn't change the fight from a nasty close quarters battle over a huge area. And the Custodes have war machines as well. It's still a blood bath.
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Post by Black Admiral » 2005-01-08 03:39pm

SirNitram wrote:As this completely contradicts what I've seen from Necronlord, I'm going to have to demand the quote that establishes this.
As requested:
[u]Sabbat Martyr[/u], page 177 wrote:The side batteries of the Omnia Vincit lit up and stayed lit. The Navarre's shields soaked up the mecriless bombardment for several seconds, swirling and coruscating like molten glass. Then they began to buckle and fail. The Navarre heeled over, its hull shredding and burning.
The Omnia Vincit is a carrier/fleet comcon ship, and as a nessecity is lightly armed for broadside engagments.
I'll wait for those, then.
[u]Sabbat Martyr, page 158[/u] wrote:"Take out the fighter icon," snapped Sodak, and an aide cancelled the overlay image of Berengaria's attack squadron.

Four ships. One of them very large. And they were moving. Point seven five light at the least, cutting straight towards Herodor.
[u]Sabbat Martyr, page 157[/u] wrote:The pilots of the squadron chattered back and the Lightning flight, like a flock of racing birds, turned as one towards the calculated real-space entry point about seven hundred and fifty kilometers ahead.

There was nothing to see. The starfield at this speed was a striated blur[....] Non-baryonic light flared brilliantly through the tear, backlighting the arriving ships. Monumental sillhouettes, they were shot forward into real space.

They did not slow down. They were moving at cruise speed. Attack speed.

Shumlen blinked. The arriving ships were just dots against the glare spot ahead of his squadron, but his pattern recognition systems began to hoot and warble.

"Hostiles, hostiles, hostiles,"he said, mater-of-factly. "We have hostile vessels in system and advancing. Flight leader to screen elements... accelerate to attack velocity."
Those are the only relavent scenes I can find straight off, except the mention of the Berengaria crossing approx. nine AUs in ~90 minutes (pgs. 148 and 149).
One would hope so. But it's certainly established that boarding, ramming, and other such tactics of closing to stone's throw(As in, lean out, throw a stone and hit them) ranges.
True.

Spiritbw: The combat in Sabbat Martyr involved three heavy cruisers and a battleship on one side, and two light cruiser/carriers, a heavy cruiser and a battleship on the other.
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Post by SirNitram » 2005-01-08 03:41pm

Imperial Overlord wrote:The palace is the size of Europe. You can't cause so mutch damage as to cause the whole thing to collapse without failing to take the Emperor alive.
Don't have to collapse it. Just have to make new doors. Defending a hallway is hard when it's circumvented by blowing holes through adjoining corridors.
Of course the Impies can blow holes in walls. Some of the corridors are going to be huge as well. But that doesn't change the fight from a nasty close quarters battle over a huge area. And the Custodes have war machines as well. It's still a blood bath.
Never said it wouldn't be. Hence why I advocate hurling millions of war-droids first.
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Post by Black Admiral » 2005-01-08 03:42pm

Imperial Overlord wrote:And Infedal raider is more than a kilometer long. The dorsal weapons (the ones in question) on a battle barge are bombardment cannons and the description of them is consistent with how they operate (rail guns firing really powerful shells).
The Bellus's main guns don't seme to be bombardment cannons, since for one thing the Bellus, unlike normal battle barges, apparently mounts lance arrays (possibly her forward guns).
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Post by SirNitram » 2005-01-08 03:43pm

Black Admiral wrote:
SirNitram wrote:As this completely contradicts what I've seen from Necronlord, I'm going to have to demand the quote that establishes this.
As requested:
[u]Sabbat Martyr[/u], page 177 wrote:The side batteries of the Omnia Vincit lit up and stayed lit. The Navarre's shields soaked up the mecriless bombardment for several seconds, swirling and coruscating like molten glass. Then they began to buckle and fail. The Navarre heeled over, its hull shredding and burning.
The Omnia Vincit is a carrier/fleet comcon ship, and as a nessecity is lightly armed for broadside engagments.
Where's anything indicating higher yields or faster reloads than what was stated? I never said the guns can't refire fast, I was using a torpedo yield and how often it can put that on-target as a gauge of how much of a beating the ships can take.
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Post by Black Admiral » 2005-01-08 03:45pm

SirNitram wrote:Where's anything indicating higher yields or faster reloads than what was stated? I never said the guns can't refire fast, I was using a torpedo yield and how often it can put that on-target as a gauge of how much of a beating the ships can take.
Sorry, misunderstood what you meant.

The only yield I've ever heard of for torpedoes is 610GT, and the scaling for weapons batteries etc. is based off that.

You might be thinking of the 10GT warheads that the Achuultani use.
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Post by SirNitram » 2005-01-08 03:47pm

Black Admiral wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Where's anything indicating higher yields or faster reloads than what was stated? I never said the guns can't refire fast, I was using a torpedo yield and how often it can put that on-target as a gauge of how much of a beating the ships can take.
Sorry, misunderstood what you meant.

The only yield I've ever heard of for torpedoes is 610GT, and the scaling for weapons batteries etc. is based off that.

You might be thinking of the 10GT warheads that the Achuultani use.
I admit that's quite possible. But even still, 610 GT over a ten minute cycle is not going to cut it against even an old Acclamator.
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Post by Black Admiral » 2005-01-08 03:52pm

SirNitram wrote:I admit that's quite possible. But even still, 610 GT over a ten minute cycle is not going to cut it against even an old Acclamator.
That's only for torpedoes, weapons batteries and lances kick out fire a lot faster.
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Post by SirNitram » 2005-01-08 03:53pm

Black Admiral wrote:
SirNitram wrote:I admit that's quite possible. But even still, 610 GT over a ten minute cycle is not going to cut it against even an old Acclamator.
That's only for torpedoes, weapons batteries and lances kick out fire a lot faster.
But for the torpedos to be useful weaponry, they must carry enough kick to make up for slow firing.
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Post by Black Admiral » 2005-01-08 03:57pm

SirNitram wrote:But for the torpedos to be useful weaponry, they must carry enough kick to make up for slow firing.
They're useful thanks to range, a single torpedo carrying the same power as a little over six or seven broadside guns and the fact that a torpedo's far more likely to destroy something important by virtue of detonating inside a ship instead of outside
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Post by SirNitram » 2005-01-08 04:00pm

Black Admiral wrote:
SirNitram wrote:But for the torpedos to be useful weaponry, they must carry enough kick to make up for slow firing.
They're useful thanks to range, a single torpedo carrying the same power as a little over six or seven broadside guns and the fact that a torpedo's far more likely to destroy something important by virtue of detonating inside a ship instead of outside
*Rubs head* Look, I'll put it like this. In order for the torpedo to deliver the same power as six or seven broadside guns, in a meaningful sense, it must carry alot more power than a single shot from those guns, because it takes so long to refire.
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Post by DocHorror » 2005-01-08 04:07pm

Don't forget that the palace is likely to have sheilds to prevent orbital bombardment. Otherwise Horus would have just reduced the place to rubble and wouldn't have had to engage in ground combat.

Remember the palace surrived a long time while being assulted by millions of soliders, Chaos Space Marines and Daemons. Plus several Legio of Chaos Titans. Chances are its built to survive a lot of artillery. Also IIRC the Iron Warriors Leigon, who excelled at drawn out seige warfare, were having trouble breeching the defenses.

Its likely and logical that the palaces defenses would have been strengthen after the Battle for Terra and the Emperors accention.
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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2005-01-08 04:11pm

SirNitram wrote:
...Railguns vaporizing things? Are you actually thinking this through?

That's why I said really they shoot really powerful shells. Bombardment cannons launch magma bombs, which vaporize things.

The 610GT is for a lone torpedo or a fraction of a cruiser's broadside. Multiply it several times for an escort, more times for a cruiser.

Yes SW wins in space. But it isn't like beating up Trek.

Blowing holes in corridors doesn't mean it isn't a close quarters city scape type fight. And their a a lot of war machines in that palace.

And we haven't touched on what Alpha plus rated psykers will do to Imperial forces.

Bottom line: SW can win, but it'll cost an ocean of blood.
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Post by DocHorror » 2005-01-08 04:15pm

It was on Earth, at the very heart of humanity's realm, that the fate of the galaxy was to be decided. In those last days, the sky was black with dust clouds and the earth was split by gigantic fissures. Tectonic plates shifted under the stress of the bombardment. Mountain chains shivered and seas evaporated and became salty deserts. Rains of blood and ash dripped from the dark sky. Everywhere oracles muttered evil portents and men went mad with fear.
From White Dwarf 161.
Even through the shields impact makes the Imperial Palace shake. With a screech of tortured stone an angel topples from its alcove high on the throne room wall and crashes to the marble floor a kilometre below. It shatters into a million pieces. Splinters of stone flash across the hall like shrapnel.
Also from White Dwarf 161

So the Palace has shields, though by this point they had taken a pounding.
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Post by Spiritbw » 2005-01-08 04:18pm

Um, the fire rate is not ten minutes. It's less than a minute. Last I checked the ten minute reload time was given because that was supposedly the time a round in the game takes. To be honest I haven't found anything to suport that looking through the rulebook. In the fluff it gives the refire rate as less than a minute(quote above in thread) and if your going to use the game system for stats, the torpedos can fire as often as the weapons and lance batteries.

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Post by Dark Hellion » 2005-01-08 05:25pm

Not to mention that they have actually put far more defenses on Terra now than when DocHorror's quote takes place.

The reason that this is assumed to be a room to room hallway to hallway fight is the fact that we are talking about a palace with unspecified defenses that took days of bombardment from fleets, bombardments that dislocated Tectonic Plates mind you, and tens of thousands of Space Marines, multiple titan Legios, millions of guardsmen, millions of demons, multiple greater demons, demon princes and a couple of Primarchs fighting against it. Now we are actually talking about a palace tougher than that one, still gaurded by 10,000 Marines who normal Space Marines speak about as if they were archangels of the lord, it has redundant defenses out the ass, and every technology that it can possibly afford. The place has 1,000km+ of hidden tunnels that the Custodes can use to ambush forces sent in. It has adamantium armour, multiple titans, and more shit that you can shake a stick at.
While the GE can do it, the amount of manpower you would need to invest to actually storm the remains of the palace are so immense that it is probably gonna stagger the commanders. A million wardroids is not going to do a damn thing in the long run.
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Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba » 2005-01-08 05:38pm

Dark Hellion wrote:Not to mention that they have actually put far more defenses on Terra now than when DocHorror's quote takes place.

The reason that this is assumed to be a room to room hallway to hallway fight is the fact that we are talking about a palace with unspecified defenses that took days of bombardment from fleets, bombardments that dislocated Tectonic Plates mind you, and tens of thousands of Space Marines, multiple titan Legios, millions of guardsmen, millions of demons, multiple greater demons, demon princes and a couple of Primarchs fighting against it. Now we are actually talking about a palace tougher than that one, still gaurded by 10,000 Marines who normal Space Marines speak about as if they were archangels of the lord, it has redundant defenses out the ass, and every technology that it can possibly afford. The place has 1,000km+ of hidden tunnels that the Custodes can use to ambush forces sent in. It has adamantium armour, multiple titans, and more shit that you can shake a stick at.
While the GE can do it, the amount of manpower you would need to invest to actually storm the remains of the palace are so immense that it is probably gonna stagger the commanders. A million wardroids is not going to do a damn thing in the long run.
Give quotes to back up your wanking, and numbers on the Adeptus Custodes there.

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Post by NecronLord » 2005-01-08 05:47pm

SirNitram wrote: As this completely contradicts what I've seen from Necronlord, I'm going to have to demand the quote that establishes this.
Which figure is this? If it's a standard weapon, or a lance, then it may fire many times in 10 minutes to make the effective firepower up to the torpedo figure (Certainly such weapons do not have a fire limit of once per turn)... And I seem to recall my nova cannon calcs being much higher.
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Post by Dark Hellion » 2005-01-08 07:59pm

There are 10,000 Adeptus Custodes of the Legiones Custode. There is a quote that goes along the lines of "the 10,000 blades of the Adeptus Custodes".
The actual power of the Custodes is never specifically stated. It is the reaction of other characters to them that makes the difference. They are whispered about like some type of demigods, and IIRC there is a quote in WD that they are as far above a Space Marine is as a Space Marine is above a man. We know how good a Space Marine is, at it is obscene compared to almost anything the the GE can field. A Custodian would be even moreso.
Most of the rest of it is common sense. It is a fortress, every fortress in 40k has adamantium or better for armour. The tunnels are mentioned in Codex:Witchhunters. The titans are mentioned in some fluff piece I don't have on hand, and are also shown in an illustration. The world is one fortress, everything is either based on preserving the Imperial Beaurocracy or defending it.
Think of Coruscant, but with everyone hellbent on not letting you get another step closer to thier god, with a higher density of military sites, more AA and anti-ground batteries, Armour Plated oceans, military installations that stretch over continents, orbital fortresses dense enough to pockmock the sky, and hardened groups of superhumans, some of whom can vaporize you with a sidelong glance. This is Terra. Terra is not simply a well defended capital planet, it is a single living breathing defensive installation with the entire solar system dedicated to not letting a single enemy get to the holy throne. You are not dealing with rational men, you are dealing with fanatics who will ever surrender, or ever give an inch. You can glass the surface and men will stream from the underhives to defend the Emperor. If you think anything that an Iraqi incursion member can do is bad, think of men willing to charge heldlong, 10k strong into an enemy group holding a tactical nuclear device as the only weapon and literally picking it up were it falls short of the carrier being vaporized. Think of men who will detonate themselves and their entire city so that one enemy is prevented from reaching holy soil (look at Nightbringer for the slimmest example of zeal. One man detonates an ammunition store from inside it to take out anti-imperial forces. A woman sends a targeting beacon to an awaiting spacecraft, targetting her building, in order to take out insurgants.)
The forces of Terra will not accept defeat short of being massacred to the last man, woman and child.
The GE has never dealt with this level of fanaticism. The amount of forces they will lose would be completely unnacceptable to any commander you could possibly find. Total space dominance means an eventual victory by starvation, but decades of time and billions of loses of men and machines would be required.
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Post by andrewgpaul » 2005-01-08 08:14pm

Can I ask where the firepower estimate of the torpedoes comes from? Is it the quote from the end of the Space Hulk 1st edition rulebook? and if so, does anyone have a copy online anywhere?
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