Scenario: SW Galactic Empire vs. WH:40K Imperium of Man

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Post by Skelron » 2005-01-08 08:43am

Hmm I'm going to ask a question, whats prtecting Vader from a Counter attack, I mean he's got a powerful presence I'd imagine be quite noticable on a fleet of non-Force users for anyone looking...

And below we have a Planet armed we know with Teleporters, and we have several different types of Marines and Marine+ from Imperial Fists who I think are also based off of Earth to Grey Knights and last of all the Imperial Custodes.

I say the Empire's fleet appears in Earth Orbit, and Vader finds himself facing a Squad of Grey Knights before they have even begun to clear away Terra's defences...

If that fails well their is always the Forbidden Technology, that they really don't like using, I mean really don't like using, because of it's destructive power. This from a Universe where Exterminatus is a acceptable tactic nly commentated on if it happened to be your homeworld you decided to wipe out...
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Post by Gunhead » 2005-01-08 08:53am

An AT-AT can't fit inside a 3-meter wide, 3-meter tall corridor, first of all.

A blaster has been proven in the past to be on roughly even footing with a lasgun - and a lasgun doesn't have a chance in hell of denting an armored Marine. It's like stabbing an Abrams with a spear.[/quote]

The ground forces would have to stopped before they can reach the main citadel, so they can't just simply destroy the whole palace around the throne room.

In a corridor fight the empire could deploy Zero-G stormies, they have enough firepower and armor to go against SM and Termies.

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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius » 2005-01-08 09:11am

[quote="Xenos, pg 244, 245]Two [aliens] clattered forward suddenly, towards the bewildered trooper escort. Electric-blue discharges fizzled around the saruthi's swaying heads and then spat raking beams of ice-bright energy at their attacks. Two troopers were vaporised, their constituent matter boiling away in searing flashes of light.
I caught sight of Mandragore. The brute had already killed one trooper in an attempt to curtail the mindless wildfire, but now the saruthi had fired on them, the troopers felt justified in their action and redoubled their efforts. An alien beam sliced into Mandragore's arm, and rage consumed him. He attacked the saruthi himself, wielding a massive chain-axe.[/quote]

Here we have Mandragore, a Chaos Space Marine. The troopers annihilated by the attack that barely scratched him wore armor comparable to Stormtrooper armor. Note that Mandragore retained full use of the attacked limb.
I was felled by a monumental blow to the shoulder. As I dropped, the book spun helplessly from my yearning hand. The tiles underneath me were awash with blood.
My blood.
I rolled over as the next blow came. The screaming teeth of the chain axe missed me by a hair's breadth and shattered the bloody tiles.
Mandragore, bastard child of the Emperor.
I scrambled backwards in blind panic. The stinking Chaos warrior was right on me, his lurid armor flecked with human blood and alien ichor. My dazed half-turn at the last moment had spoiled his first blow, but still the back plate of my naval trooper combat armour was shredded; the left shoulder guard was completely ripped away. The glancing shoulder wound was savage and deep. Blood gouted through torn flesh and armour, cascading down my left arm. Writhing backwards, I found my hands slipping on the blood-washed octagons.
I lashed out with my mind. It was no match for his fearsome psychic capacity, but it was enough to put him off his swing. The shrieking chain-blade of the axe sawed through the air over my ducking head.
My fallen hell-gun was out of reach, and I doubted it would have made a dent in the monster anyway. His baying face, its sutured-on skin stretching around the gaping jaws of his skull, was all I could see.
My left arm was numb and useless. I threw myself to my feet, pulling my sword from my webbing.
The device is a fine weapon, of the old kind. It has no material like other, cruder models I have seen. It is a hilt, twenty centimeters long, inlaid and wound with silver thread, enclosing a fusion cell that generates a metre-long blade of coherent light. The Provost of Inx himself blessed it for me, charging it to 'protect our brother Eisenhorn always from the spawn of damnation.'
I prayed now he hadn't been wasting his breath.
I ignited the blade and fended away the next axe swing. Sparks and metal shrapnel flew from the clash, and the beast's huge strength nearly struck it from my hand. I jumped back a pace or two from the next whistling blow. My head was swimming. Was it the loss of blood or the after-effects of that seductive book?
Mandragore was incandescent with fury now. I was proving to be annoyingly difficult to slay - for a mere mortal.
I had a dread feeling it wouldn't last.
He rushed me again, towering over me, and I managed to deflect the force of the chain-axe. But immediately he brought the butt of the weapon's long haft around and struck me in the chest, sending my flying. I actually left the ground and cleared several metres.
I landed hard on my injured shoulder. The pain rendered me insensible for a second. That was all he needed.
He crossed the blood-flecked tiles to me in two strides, the axe rising in the air as his growl rose in pitch. With a flailing motion, I kicked the Necroteuch towards him. It struck the toe of one great boot.
The narrator is Inquisitor Eisenhorn, and of course benefits from a character shield. That was all of the passage that was really relevant, it goes on dealing with the book, the Necroteuch and Eisenhorn killing the Chaos Marine.

Of particular note - The Inquisitor notes that his hellgun (a high-power version of a lasgun, generally issued to special forces) would be useless against the Marine, and the force behind the last blow. These guys literally toss around opponents like so many ragdolls.
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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius » 2005-01-08 09:16am

The Day of Evil Quote Tags From Hell...
The ground forces would have to stopped before they can reach the main citadel, so they can't just simply destroy the whole palace around the throne room.
What?
In a corridor fight the empire could deploy Zero-G stormies, they have enough firepower and armor to go against SM and Termies.
Source for their capabilities and equipment? I'm not very familiar with them.
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Post by HemlockGrey » 2005-01-08 09:28am

I must ask, why are we restricting the capability of the Empire in this way? Is it just to make this a not-so-lopsided scenario?

Since the GE has naval superiority to the IOM, couldn't they just blitz Sol, BDZ Mars and the Jupiter worlds, and then night-cloak Earth and wait till everyone dies of starvation or the cold?
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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius » 2005-01-08 09:35am

HemlockGrey wrote:Since the GE has naval superiority to the IOM, couldn't they just blitz Sol, BDZ Mars and the Jupiter worlds, and then night-cloak Earth and wait till everyone dies of starvation or the cold?
Superior speed and firepower by a small margin, not total domination. And Terra is already dead at any rate, long since a lifeless rock and logically with facilities to accomodate for this. You'd be waiting decades to even siege out the lesser troops. The Custodes and Astartes would outlive the besieging starship crews.
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Post by Gunhead » 2005-01-08 09:46am

JediNeophyte wrote:The Day of Evil Quote Tags From Hell...
The ground forces would have to stopped before they can reach the main citadel, so they can't just simply destroy the whole palace around the throne room.
What?

What I mean is that the IoM should try to halt or slow the ground assault so the empires heavy direct fire weapons don't get the chance to blow holes into the fortress, thus allowing multiple entries into the fort.
In this the guard would be at a disadvantage since they have few guns that could stop an AT-AT.

-G
In a corridor fight the empire could deploy Zero-G stormies, they have enough firepower and armor to go against SM and Termies.
Source for their capabilities and equipment? I'm not very familiar with them.
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I'm pretty sure some SW novel has featured Zero-G Stormies. It's been too long since I read those so I'm not sure. They're also In WEG SW RPG but I don't put a lot of faith into their sources. Popular view seems to think they exist. If someone with more knowledge disproves their existence I withdraw my comment.

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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius » 2005-01-08 10:02am

What I mean is that the IoM should try to halt or slow the ground assault so the empires heavy direct fire weapons don't get the chance to blow holes into the fortress, thus allowing multiple entries into the fort.
In this the guard would be at a disadvantage since they have few guns that could stop an AT-AT.

-G
Holy Terra is like Coruscant - it's nothing but closely packed urban terrain.

Assuming AT-ATs do find some room to maneuver, that would be mean there are room for titans, too, which are armed with capital ship-grade weaponry (two, three digit gigaton-level.
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Post by Gunhead » 2005-01-08 10:14am

JediNeophyte wrote:
What I mean is that the IoM should try to halt or slow the ground assault so the empires heavy direct fire weapons don't get the chance to blow holes into the fortress, thus allowing multiple entries into the fort.
In this the guard would be at a disadvantage since they have few guns that could stop an AT-AT.

-G
Holy Terra is like Coruscant - it's nothing but closely packed urban terrain.

Assuming AT-ATs do find some room to maneuver, that would be mean there are room for titans, too, which are armed with capital ship-grade weaponry (two, three digit gigaton-level.
Well there was enough room for Titans to maneuver when Horus attacked, so we'd have an AT-AT vs. Titant bout. Titan individually would win over an AT-AT, but AT-AT's would have numbers on their side so it should make an interesting fight. Both pack Cap.ship class weapons in direct fire mode so both sides can hurt each other. I'd be hard pressed to call this one, it's really a matter of how many and how deployed.

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Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba » 2005-01-08 10:27am

Like others said, the AT-ATs will have plenty f room to maneuver if all of the Earth but one 10k circle is cooling molten metal from continual bombardments.

After that, Zero-G Stormies, AT-PTs, and Heavy Battledroids should be able to get through the walls.

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Post by NecronLord » 2005-01-08 10:37am

Chris OFarrell wrote: Make a point of focusing a LOT of firepower on Mars, where those Necron cruisers a while back landed, lets see if we can't get rid of a C'Tan.
Get rid of the Dragon? How? Maybe a death star blast to its necrodermis would do, but it's just as likely that blowing the planet up would awaken it (note a C'tan had a planet destroyed under it and hasn't died yet) and it'd decide that those imperial ships look nice, and it wants to steal one...
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Post by 18-Till-I-Die » 2005-01-08 10:43am

Yeah i would suggest whatever the Empire does they go to whatever lengths they must to not piss off the Necrons/C'Tan. That way lies madness.

Theoretically the Empire has the manpower, but honestly it wont be a simple, steamrolling task. Taking the Emperor's Palace will probably cost many hundreds of millions of Stormie lives, maybe into the billion mark. Though eventually the force of an entire galaxy will flood the Imperium; the Imperium cant hold back forever, but certainly for a very, very long time and it will NOT be easy.
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Post by Mutant Headcrab » 2005-01-08 11:25am

What happens if the Empire succeeds though? By the time the news of the Emporer's abduction reaches the ears of all Imperial citizens, you'll have mass pandemonium. The ideal conditions for Chaos to make a head on attempt at expansion. And with most of the psychic protections around the sol system gone, I know four particular gods who wouldn't mind getting a hold of some of these strange new invaders...

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Post by NecronLord » 2005-01-08 11:37am

More to the point, killing the Dragon would unite the other C'tan against them. And given that those guys have the means to destroy the Empire (it would take time, but they're billions of years old) it would be most unwise.
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Post by Skelron » 2005-01-08 01:02pm

Also I do have to wonder if the Empire can spare the resources it needs to take Earth or the God-Emperor. It's not as if just because Palpatine 'thinks' it will distract attention that it will. It may well be and in fact is more likely I fear that the Rebel Alliance will just be able to take advantage of the draw of man power away. 1000 SD's as has been sugested here and what a Billion men, have to come from somewhere...

Also the idea of the Empire just poring a Billion men in is rather rudiclous, what the most importent planet in the Galaxy is being attacked, and the Imperium is just sitting there snoring? Expect everything to be hurtling towards Earth at rapid pace, using whatever means neccersary to get there.

Meanwhile those 1000SD's are not 1000 SD's anymore the rather insane level of protection around Sol as given earlier will have taken there toll. Especially as the Empire's fleet has appeared in the middle of the network in range of a vast proportion of it all at once...

A Space-Trooper I doubt is comparable to a Terminator armoured Marine, in protection and certainly not in training, skill, experiance or weaponly. For a start send them down and they will die in droves they have not the manouverbility for such battles at least not according to the site you linked us too...
this rule is the Space trooper - this, the most cumbersome, type of the Stormtrooper detachment carries a large personal Zero-G suite with rockets for moving in space, manipulator arms for space-work, and are armed with heavy blasters (the big, strong, space variant - not the puny land version: these can punch holes in starships), grenade-launchers and in some cases shoulder-mounted proton torpedo-launchers
The description seems to me to be something designed very much for use in space where with a Zero-G conditions they can move somewhat better, I would hate to see them deployed on a planets surface against Terminator's who unlike the space-trooper are perfectly capable of being deployed in tight conditions. (Space-Hulks for example) The Proton-Torpedoe might be a useful weapon but I have my doubts if one wants to be using such weapons in a fire fight, and again makes it clear to me, these troops are designed to operate in space, and would be massacred on a planet, these are fighter-killers and something to hurt a capital ship, however Thrawn eventually used them. (I believe to provide security for borders,)

In short deploying them on the planet Earth would be madness. Protection and weaponly wise I would admit they are a challanging foe, it's their manouverbility I question along with their practical deployment as a planet based trooper, I would ask for an example of them being used extensively on a planets surface, otherwise I am going to have to conlude their is a reason they are called space/Zero-G troopers and not Havy-Stormtroopers or the like.
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Post by Falkenhayn » 2005-01-08 02:25pm

Chris O'Farrell has raised a point that no one seems to have picked up on.

In order to function in 40kverse, SW MUST adapt the Gellar Field technology, which requires there aquiring an example. Otherwise, the GE fleet will run the certainty, not the risk, of mass possessions.

They will also be vulnerable to every describable kind of Teleportation wank yet devised.

As for the GEoM, he is guarded by two Imperator Class Titans that stand on either side of his throne. If scaling from BFG is any indicator, they wield Gigaton range weaponry.
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Post by Currald » 2005-01-08 02:32pm

I've never seen Imperators in any of the pictures of the throne room. Still, he would have 'em, wouldn't he? :lol:
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Post by Spiritbw » 2005-01-08 02:42pm

You know, in all this I do have one question. Where abouts was it decided that IoM ships where outgunned by Empire ISDs? I have done a search for things in this forum but only found referance to the GT yield of a torpedo. Other than that, all I can find are estimates based on game stats which really doesn't help much either since we are stuck with the ship to ship effects and nothing we can put in terms of GT like has been done for SW and ST.

I hessitate to use that one refenrace to the power of a torpedo because it really doesn't function in the same way against a ship as lance turrets and weapon batteries do. Imperium ships don't seem to have shield that protect against solid objects for one. Bombers, fighters and torpedos are not stopped by them. All defences agaisnt these are done by a combination of AA fire and then by the thickness of the armour on the hull which is supposedly measured in meters with the prow on IoM cruisers being many times thicker. Even then Torpedos are intended to drill through this armour before exploding, unleashing it's payload inside the ship. This is common to both Execution hour and Storm of Iron, both of which describe a torpedo as being designed to cut through the hull of a ship.

I've been trying to pull some things that could be used to figure out an estimate but even those are rather vague. The only real source we could use for the actions of a IoM cruiser are in the book 'Execution Hour' and even then the description is not very accurate. At one point orbiting cruisers open fire on ground based batteries and defences and each shot is said to cause a crater 'hundreds of meters deep'. If I could give someone refenraces could someone be able to try and calculate the strength of the average IoM ship-grade gun?

Even range is something of an unknown. Two ships exchange shots early in the book somewhere between 20,000 and 15,000 km, the range at first the Chaos ship is detected trying to ghost in on the Imperium ship under minimum power. We do get an idea of thier idea of point blank range as Imperium bombers are asked to hold launching thier anit-ship ordance till 500 km(a point the bombers considered 'suicidal, point-blank range') and the normal launch range for the bombers is about 1,000 km, the point the captain of the bomber wing requests from Macharius permission to launch it's payload. At the very least it seems the Imperium ahs a reach advantage over the Empire which IIRC, Wong has stated somewhere on his site as being in the tens of km.

We have no idea as to what the range or yield on a Nova cannon is either. This could play an important part in any fleet action between the two as the Nova is supposedly much more powerfull than most other Imperium ship weapons and with a extremely long range. During the Gothic war more ships carried the Nova Cannon in place of torpedos than there had been at the start. Having no refenrace outside of the game stats I really have no idea how this would effect the outcome.

The Empire definatly seems to have the advantage over the Imperium on the basis of speed. The FTL of SW is very accurate by comparison and definatly much safer. Imperium FTL is at best, a bit like setting out form London for Bombay in the age of sail. You might get there, you might not and if you do you have no idea when. The currents in the warp are a bit like the currents of the ocean and like the Age of Sial, it takes a trained and knowledgable navigator to use the currents to get where they need to be. Even then comming out with eny sort of precssion is nearly impossible.

A note here on the Gellar field. The Geller field doesn't seem to block psionics or even warp entities for that matter. What it does seem to do is creates an area where Material world rules still apply. Warp entities cannot enter such an area without A.) A host to possess or B.) some material that is receptive to them allowing them to take form from it. That is why armsmen with loaded shotguns patrol the decks during travel through the warp on Imperium ships. If they see the least sign of possession they are to open fire. Even baring that one should rember that the ships can and do exchange communications in the warp which is most often done by psionics between Astropaths despite these fields. Chaos ships also have geller fields and in Execution hour we are told many ships are called and sent on missions while still in the warp. If it blocked all psionic activity they wouldn't be able to do this.

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Post by Spiritbw » 2005-01-08 02:46pm

Currald wrote:I've never seen Imperators in any of the pictures of the throne room. Still, he would have 'em, wouldn't he? :lol:
There is a description of the hall leading to the throne room in 'Eye of Terror' in which there are two Imperators standing guard on either side of the door.

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Post by SirNitram » 2005-01-08 02:54pm

10 GT, with a ten minute reload, is considered a feasible weapon. Compare this to a troop transport that vomits out 200GT, per shot, from a four gun turret, of which it has twelve, with refire rates between 'Three per second' and 'once per ten seconds'. The gulf is much bigger than simply saying 'Shields don't interact with physical objects well'. We won't get into how much asskicking an ISD-II has; it has sixty-four barrels much, much bigger than those little guns, when you count all it's turrets.

The Empire's combat range is easily in the 30,000 Km range and up.. They can pinpoint shots from geosync down into an ocean with enough precision to crack a sub's hull just enough to force it up to the surface.(Dark Force Rising) There's occasions of shots being exchanged in light-second ranges. They can get up close, but they rarely do.

THat's how the Empire's dominance in space was figured out. The fact they never break down into ramming helps.
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Post by Black Admiral » 2005-01-08 03:04pm

SirNitram wrote:10 GT, with a ten minute reload, is considered a feasible weapon.
Actually it's 91.5GT, with a refire rate of a few seconds.
There's occasions of shots being exchanged in light-second ranges.
Sabbat Martyr has 40K capital ships enaging each other while closing at a high fraction of lightspeed (plus the mention of 75% of light as "attack speed"). Give me a minute or two and I can probably find the relevant quotes.
The fact they never break down into ramming helps.
I won't pretend that ramming doesn't happen, but the short story Wolf Pack describes it as being considered an option of last resort.
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Post by SirNitram » 2005-01-08 03:09pm

Black Admiral wrote:
SirNitram wrote:10 GT, with a ten minute reload, is considered a feasible weapon.
Actually it's 91.5GT, with a refire rate of a few seconds.
As this completely contradicts what I've seen from Necronlord, I'm going to have to demand the quote that establishes this.
There's occasions of shots being exchanged in light-second ranges.
Sabbat Martyr has 40K capital ships enaging each other while closing at a high fraction of lightspeed (plus the mention of 75% of light as "attack speed"). Give me a minute or two and I can probably find the relevant quotes.
I'll wait for those, then.
The fact they never break down into ramming helps.
I won't pretend that ramming doesn't happen, but the short story Wolf Pack describes it as being considered an option of last resort.
One would hope so. But it's certainly established that boarding, ramming, and other such tactics of closing to stone's throw(As in, lean out, throw a stone and hit them) ranges.
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Post by Black Admiral » 2005-01-08 03:16pm

Spiritbw: If we knew how much an Idolator-class raider massed, it might be possible to work out something from this scene in Deus Encarmine:
Deus Encarmine, page 80 wrote:The battle barge's hammer-shaped bow sported four massive gun tubes, each the length of a Cobra-class Imperial destroyer, and in a glare of violent discharge, all but one spat their death-loads at the raider. Each cannon was powerful enough to deal a shattering blow to void shields or hull armour, and to use them against a lighter ship like the Chaos raider was complete overkill. Shots from the first, second, and fourth guns - the third was still inoperable - savaged the vessel and opened it to vacuum. Unlike the Ogre Lord, whose crew had moments of screaming fear to understand what was happening to them, the raider simply ceased to exist.

In one murderous detonation of energy, steel and twisted bone-metals flashed to atoms and became gas; it was as if the ship had been flung into the heart of a star. Under Ideon's command, Bellus pushed on through the expanding wave front of the ship's vaporous remains and bore down on Dirge Eterna.
"I do not say the French cannot come. I only say they cannot come by sea." - Admiral Lord St. Vincent, Royal Navy, during the Napoleonic Wars

"Show me a general who has made no mistakes and you speak of a general who has seldom waged war." - Marshal Turenne, 1641

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Uraniun235
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Post by Uraniun235 » 2005-01-08 03:18pm

What's with the Zero-G stormtroopers? Whatever happened to the Dark Troopers? Given that they have some degree of Force awareness, I would imagine these guys would be the ones to deploy against the Custodes.
I must ask, why are we restricting the capability of the Empire in this way? Is it just to make this a not-so-lopsided scenario?
Anybody can set up for a planet to be BDZed. I wanted a real honest-to-God bloodbath, and I wanted to see just how bloody it could get.
If that fails well their is always the Forbidden Technology, that they really don't like using, I mean really don't like using, because of it's destructive power. This from a Universe where Exterminatus is a acceptable tactic nly commentated on if it happened to be your homeworld you decided to wipe out...
No. Stop.

This vague wankery is endemic to seemingly any vs. thread where 40K is involved. I don't want this shit, I want specified abilities. What the hell is Forbidden Technology? What can it do? What can't it do?

Take your hand off your penis and assume that some of us are not intimately aware with the 40K universe.
Also I do have to wonder if the Empire can spare the resources it needs to take Earth or the God-Emperor.
Fine. Then assume the Rebellion has been crushed.
Also the idea of the Empire just poring a Billion men in is rather rudiclous, what the most importent planet in the Galaxy is being attacked, and the Imperium is just sitting there snoring? Expect everything to be hurtling towards Earth at rapid pace, using whatever means neccersary to get there.
It's going to take at least a while for reinforcements to a) be contacted in the first place, and b) get there. Meanwhile, the Imperial fleet has set up a blockade and will be anticipating inbound hostiles.
Meanwhile those 1000SD's are not 1000 SD's anymore the rather insane level of protection around Sol as given earlier will have taken there toll. Especially as the Empire's fleet has appeared in the middle of the network in range of a vast proportion of it all at once...
Who said they appeared in the middle of it? Who says the Empire won't decide to come in from maximum weapons range and bombard them from afar?

And who said we're limited to one thousand Star Destroyers?

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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2005-01-08 03:19pm

Most 40K ship combats take place at ranges measured in tens of thousands of kilometers.
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