Scenario: SW Galactic Empire vs. WH:40K Imperium of Man

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Gunhead
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Post by Gunhead »

Imperial armor sourcebook, and the update, doesn't give saves. It talks about all facings having an armour value. Land raider, Leman Russ, All the supers and the warhound titan, have a front armour rating of 14. Which is roughly 400mm of conventional steel.

Now that says to me equally armored.

How current is Space Marine/Titan Legions sourcebook?

I mean if we use old enough fluff, imperial lasgun takes about a minute to build up a charge... <--- Space Hulk manuals. :wink:

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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius »

Imperial armor sourcebook, and the update, doesn't give saves. It talks about all facings having an armour value. Land raider, Leman Russ, All the supers and the warhound titan, have a front armour rating of 14. Which is roughly 400mm of conventional steel.
The latter two also have multiple structure points, unlike the former, and are significantly harder to destroy or even appreciably damage.
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Post by Gunhead »

JediNeophyte wrote:
Imperial armor sourcebook, and the update, doesn't give saves. It talks about all facings having an armour value. Land raider, Leman Russ, All the supers and the warhound titan, have a front armour rating of 14. Which is roughly 400mm of conventional steel.
The latter two also have multiple structure points, unlike the former, and are significantly harder to destroy or even appreciably damage.
This maybe so in game mechanics. In RL however any hit to the tanks ammunition will almost always cause a catastrophic explosion that'll will kill the crew and destroy the tank. They still have nothing in the way of ammunition containment system in their tanks.

Don't know how vulnerable their lasgun capacitators, or capacitators in general, are to battle damage.

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Post by Black Admiral »

Going by Honour Guard it's pretty damn difficult to get Imperium HE shells to explode, considering that the only time explosions are mentioned WRT Imperium tanks getting knocked out is if they got hit by a high-ex round.
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Post by Gunhead »

Well I have to look into it more when I get back. As it stands, however, I have no reason to believe a DU round or HEAT round couldn't cook off their ammuniton quite easily.
Their tanks also lack a spall liner, which would mean penetrations cause more fragmenting inside the tank further dangering the crew and equipment.
Also makes their tanks vulnerable to HESH rounds.

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Post by Black Admiral »

Gunhead wrote:Well I have to look into it more when I get back. As it stands, however, I have no reason to believe a DU round or HEAT round couldn't cook off their ammuniton quite easily.
The Ghost's tread-fethers (HEAT warheads, like all IG antitank missiles) were having minimal effectiveness at setting off the ammo stores on the Zoican, Blood Pact and Infardi tanks they were using them against, and I know for definite that the Zoicans were using standard-pattern tank designs.

And, well, in the opinion of the Guard tankists, the Infardi and Blood Pact tank models were undergunned, ill-equipped deathtraps.
Their tanks also lack a spall liner, which would mean penetrations cause more fragmenting inside the tank further dangering the crew and equipment.
Fair point.
Also makes their tanks vulnerable to HESH rounds.

-Gunhead
HESH? Don't know that one.
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Post by Patrick Ogaard »

Black Admiral wrote: HESH? Don't know that one.
Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! I know that one.

High Explosive Squash Head, also known as HEP or High Explosive Plastic

Basically, the round has a flexible or semi-flexible casing filled with explosive filler and fitted with a fuse at the base of the round.

The idea is that the round pancakes on the target's armor, squashing itself flat and then exploding to rip off external fittings as well as normally knocking a big scab of steel loose on the inside of the armor without actually breaching the armor. The scab then careens through the tank, literally chopping the crew to pieces. Spall liners or spaced armor will make a HEP/HESH round largely ineffective at killing crews.
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Post by white_rabbit »

Well, there ARE HESH rounds in 40k, described as auger rounds, although there may be some dispute about whether there are two types.

Anywho, despite the useful rules, " It was not regarded as a success, and few shells are produced now " Is used to describe the implementation of a hesh round designed to upgun the smaller Conquerer battlecannon.

Best use appears to be as something to weaken armour facings on superheavies, then slam a dual explosive/kinetic or kinetic round through/into the weakened section.

when used against a Baneblade it had an effect only on the outer armour.
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Post by gamesguy »

Black Admiral wrote:Then all the better. Multi-meltas have an upper limit in the single-double digit GJ range.

Wrong. See Connor's estimates on page 12 of this thread.

Not to mention that vaporising 12 cubic metres of ice (Caves of Ice) takes something like 20-odd GJ IIRC, and that's just for a meltagun, not a multimelta, which is distinctly more powerful.

Also, as a random note, a Leman Russ Demolisher can survive a hit to the turret from a multimelta. However, I wouldn't recommend trying to fire the main gun afterwards.
Yes I am well aware of these calcs. I love how they fired a GJ+ range multimelta in a cave and somehow the guardsman inside didnt get fried. This incident was discussed in detail over at SB, it was concluded that the multimelta's power in that incident was greatly exagerrated, or that guardsman have super anti-heat shielding suits and glued themselves to the floor.


Even if we were to use the 20 GJ for a melta gun, are you saying a terminator, or a SM, can survive a hit from a melta gun? :roll:
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Post by Black Admiral »

gamesguy wrote:Yes I am well aware of these calcs. I love how they fired a GJ+ range multimelta in a cave and somehow the guardsman inside didnt get fried. This incident was discussed in detail over at SB, it was concluded that the multimelta's power in that incident was greatly exagerrated, or that guardsman have super anti-heat shielding suits and glued themselves to the floor.
Not comprehending the difference between an energy beam and a bomb then. And furthermore, exaggeration doesn't work, especially given that Cain's typically precise about IoM weapon's effects. Oh, and disregarding stated numbers because they don't produce results you happen to like is fucking retarded.

Hell, meltaguns have to be at least double digit GJ range, considering that it takes that kind of firepower to drop Necron warriors permanently, and Jurgen was having no trouble at all doing that in Caves of Ice.
Even if we were to use the 20 GJ for a melta gun, are you saying a terminator, or a SM, can survive a hit from a melta gun? :roll:
A Terminator, more than likely, normal SM, not without some serious extenuating circumstances.
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Post by NecronLord »

gamesguy wrote:Yes I am well aware of these calcs. I love how they fired a GJ+ range multimelta in a cave and somehow the guardsman inside didnt get fried. This incident was discussed in detail over at SB, it was concluded that the multimelta's power in that incident was greatly exagerrated, or that guardsman have super anti-heat shielding suits and glued themselves to the floor.


Even if we were to use the 20 GJ for a melta gun, are you saying a terminator, or a SM, can survive a hit from a melta gun? :roll:
As the guy who made said calculations, I order you to provide a valid alternate explanation for an explicit vapourisation of a dozen cubic meters of ice or to shut your hole. Yes, it's rediculous, but no more rediculous than 200 gigaton turbolasers.
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Post by Currald »

Gunhead wrote:
JediNeophyte wrote:
Imperial armor sourcebook, and the update, doesn't give saves. It talks about all facings having an armour value. Land raider, Leman Russ, All the supers and the warhound titan, have a front armour rating of 14. Which is roughly 400mm of conventional steel.
The latter two also have multiple structure points, unlike the former, and are significantly harder to destroy or even appreciably damage.
This maybe so in game mechanics. In RL however any hit to the tanks ammunition will almost always cause a catastrophic explosion that'll will kill the crew and destroy the tank. They still have nothing in the way of ammunition containment system in their tanks.
So, if in game terms, a tank is harder to destroy... then it must have more effective armor in "real life," neh?
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Post by Lost Soal »

Gunhead wrote:
JediNeophyte wrote:
Imperial armor sourcebook, and the update, doesn't give saves. It talks about all facings having an armour value. Land raider, Leman Russ, All the supers and the warhound titan, have a front armour rating of 14. Which is roughly 400mm of conventional steel.
The latter two also have multiple structure points, unlike the former, and are significantly harder to destroy or even appreciably damage.
This maybe so in game mechanics. In RL however any hit to the tanks ammunition will almost always cause a catastrophic explosion that'll will kill the crew and destroy the tank. They still have nothing in the way of ammunition containment system in their tanks.

Don't know how vulnerable their lasgun capacitators, or capacitators in general, are to battle damage.

-Gunhead
Please don't try to use game mechanics to judge armour thickness as the concept is flawed. Due to the method used to penetrate in game the values cannot be made any bigger or else they would dominate the game and be virtually impossible to kil. While similar instances can occur in RL, (Panzers V and VI were next to useless against the T38) such game altering effects cannot be created as it would destroy the game and have to be removed, e.g. Virus Outbreak Strategy Card. Structure points were brought in to acount for extra thickness and compartmentalisation.
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Post by Gunhead »

I wasn't using game mechanics to calculate anything. I just pointed out that said mechanics can be used to determine is x more powerful than y. Also, since all said vehicles have exactly the same armor value in game, they should have about equal amounts of effective armour. Or that the differences are so small that they don't affect in game numbers.

All other info I derived from the Land Raider armor that is stated being 365mm of conventional steel, while it's actual thickness is around 90mm. I just use that 400mm figure 'cos I can be generous here and it's a nice even number. Now from this based on the similar AV values I said that plasteel should about x2 vs. conventional steel. So I'm giving the WH side here something.

For those interested, Base AV of 10 is about 200mm of conventional steel.
Each +1 to AV is about + 50mm conventional steel.

Currald no it doesn't. Simply put big tanks are less prone to battle damage because they have more volume, and a penetrating shot can pass through without hitting anything vital. It also represents compartmentalisation.
This is supported by the fact that structure points are lost only if armor is penetrated.
GW didn't set out to make a vehicle combat system, so their game mechanics can be sometimes a bit iffy, specially when it comes to vehicles, which weren't the main focus of the game anyway.

Bottom line is, if you can get the ammo in an IG tank to set off, the result will be a big boom.

One more thing about spall liners. They also snatch shrapnel caused by non penetrating kinetic ammunition. W00t? High velocity KE rounds can cause the armor to spall even if they don't penetrate? Imagine that. :wink:

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Post by Falkenhayn »

The debate about IoM doctrine has been done before. At best they are circa 1950's.
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Post by Dark Hellion »

You can't lump the IOM into a single doctrine set. They vary from barely post Roman tactics to other groups which have advanced coordination between Air, Space and Ground forces and have psychic support and advanced intellegence gathering. Look at the Inquisition and some Space Marine chapters for such things. Groups like the Harkonni Warhawks and Elysian Drop Troops are tactically very advanced for IG given that for some PDFs the training barely goes beyond showing them the end of the gun to point at the enemy.
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Post by Raxmei »

Gunhead wrote:I wasn't using game mechanics to calculate anything. I just pointed out that said mechanics can be used to determine is x more powerful than y. Also, since all said vehicles have exactly the same armor value in game, they should have about equal amounts of effective armour. Or that the differences are so small that they don't affect in game numbers.
That makes some sense for armor values lower than 14, for which it is possible to adjust game stats to fit the vehicle. The problem arises at AV14, which is the largest value supported by the game. If a tank had armor twice as good as a Land Raider's its game stats would still be AV14 because the game engine doesn't allow anything higher. GW gets around this limitation using special rules like the Monolith's living metal and superheavy structure points, which you are simply ignoring.
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Post by Gunhead »

That living metal thing is something I haven't heard about before, as to the structure points read my previous post were I responded to Currald.

When I see something to suggest greater armor protection than 400mm I'll review my estimates.

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Post by Black Admiral »

Gunhead wrote:When I see something to suggest greater armor protection than 400mm I'll review my estimates.

-Gunhead
Well, they most likely have that against thermal energy (a Leman Russ Demolisher survived a multimelta hit to the turret in Storm of Iron; I can grab the quote if you need it).

As for KE, that's an unknown.
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Post by Gunhead »

How much energy multimelta delivers? That's what really matters.

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Post by Currald »

Gunhead wrote:That living metal thing is something I haven't heard about before, as to the structure points read my previous post were I responded to Currald.

When I see something to suggest greater armor protection than 400mm I'll review my estimates.

-Gunhead
This is a reasonable stance to take. I don't necessarily agree with you, but I can't fault your reasoning. However, here's a bit more data, again from Armies of the Imperium.
Because of its extra-ordinary armour the Shadow Sword has an armour saveing throw of 1 or more on a D6.... The Baneblade is just as slow and ponderous as the Shadow Sword, and has the same thick armour and saving roll.... The Storm Hammer is one of the three types of Imperial super heavy tank and is just as well armoured as the Shadow Sword and the Baneblade.... Because of its very thick and efficient armour the Leviathan has an armour saving throw of 1 on a D6. This applies all the way round including the sides and rear, so attackers do not get the usualy bonus for side and rear shots.... Because of its very thick and efficient armour the Capitol Imperialis has an armour saving throw of 1 on a D6. This applies all the way round including the sides and rear...
The above quotes explicitely discuss such things as armor thickness. I don't think that your interpretation of game mechanics overrides something like this for the reasons given by Raxmel. The game mechanics break down above AR14.
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Post by Black Admiral »

Gunhead wrote:How much energy multimelta delivers? That's what really matters.

-Gunhead
Multi-GJ range, minimal, maybe in the TJ range.
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Post by Raxmei »

Gunhead wrote:How much energy multimelta delivers? That's what really matters.

-Gunhead
This thread has been repeatedly mentioned. The final total counting both latent heats and 100 kelvins worth of temperature change is some 33 gigajoules, though that's just a meltagun. A multi-melta is, as the name implies, bigger and more powerful than a meltagun.
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Post by Gunhead »

Something having a very thick armor is always relative to something in the universe it's in.

Land raider has the best armor in IoM arsenal that I can confirm 1cm actual to 4cm effective. It also has all facings equally armored. All other vehicles have less than that in any facing.

I'll have to do more measurements.

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Post by Gunhead »

Multimelta

The Multimelta or Thermal Cannon is named on account of the multiple barrels used on some models. It is also known as 'hotstuff', 'hells breath' and 'hells halitos' - its crewmen being noted for their sense of humor as well as the permanently singed condition of their uniforms.

The weapon is essentially a more powerful version of the standard Meltagun. It works by means of sub-atomic agitation, rather like a long ranged microwave cooker, and can melt its way through even the heaviest armour. It is, however, handicapped by a relatively short range.

The Multimelta makes no noise when fired, but the super-heating of the air produces a distinctive hiss which becomes a roaring blast when a living target is hit and its body moisture vapourises explosively.

Reproduced from Wargear book 2nd edition Warhammer 40,000. Used without permission.

^--- Now I'm assuming they are not using fucking microwaves against metal armor :wink:

So, it like breaks up targets at sub atomic level or something?

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