The Kilrathi vs. the Klingons!!

[Peregrin Toker]

Yup!!! Yet another VS thread.

Now, I haven't played any of the Wing Commander games, but I'm slightly into the Wing Commander mythos to know who the Kilrathi are.

See, I wanted the Klingons to fight against the Kilrathi, since they both fill their respective places in their universes... (the barbaric warrior races who once hated humanity)

And finally - I mean the Klingon Empire by the 2360 - so the Klingons can't be led by General Chang.

I don't know that much about the Wing Commander mythos, but I actually think the Kilrathi have an edge - they have various types of fighters, which the Klingons don't have - however, in an episode of DS9 (or was it TNG?? If it was DS9, it was probably "Way of the Warrior") we saw some very small Klingon ships. However, these Klingon ships appeared to be too big to be fighters.

But since I'm not much into the Wing Commander mythos, I'll leave the rest to you.

[Eleas]

"Yup!!! Yet another VS thread.

Now, I haven't played any of the Wing Commander games, but I'm slightly into the Wing Commander mythos to know who the Kilrathi are.

See, I wanted the Klingons to fight against the Kilrathi, since they both fill their respective places in their universes... (the barbaric warrior races who once hated humanity)"

Kilrathi will eat the Klingons alive in ground combat. Not the least for their penchant for nuking the battlefield. IIRC they use ranged weapons, but the Klingon love for close combat will act against them in this case as well - Kilrathi are built like tigers, which should lend them a substantial strength advantage. Also, they have claws and fangs, and greater mass by far.

They are also far more ruthless than the Klingons, IMHO. A tactic in the vicious Enyo conflict, IIRC, was for Kilrathi commandos to slip into bunkers while the men slept and disembowel them, as messily as possible, to spread terror.

"And finally - I mean the Klingon Empire by the 2360 - so the Klingons can't be led by General Chang.

I don't know that much about the Wing Commander mythos, but I actually think the Kilrathi have an edge - they have various types of fighters, which the Klingons don't have - however, in an episode of DS9 (or was it TNG?? If it was DS9, it was probably "Way of the Warrior") we saw some very small Klingon ships. However, these Klingon ships appeared to be too big to be fighters.

But since I'm not much into the Wing Commander mythos, I'll leave the rest to you."

The Kilrathi were disarmed and finally almost eradicated by the time of WC: Prophecy. I assume this is at the height of their power.

I don't know much about shield strength beyond my memory of Action Stations, but I seem to remember old, obsolete "battlewagons" carrying enough shielding to withstand multimegaton impacts for "hours". These were, of course, the heavy hitters, but nevertheless it sounds as if the WC ships generally sit a magnitude above Klingon ships when talking about shields.

There is a silver bullet, though. The Kilrathi were the first to develop the shield-phase missile. Such a missile passes cleanly through an energy shield. As Trek shields are frequency-based, I don't see why this wouldn't work.

End result: Klingons are annexed.

[phongn]

There is a silver bullet, though. The Kilrathi were the first to develop the shield-phase missile. Such a missile passes cleanly through an energy shield. As Trek shields are frequency-based, I don't see why this wouldn't work.

End result: Klingons are annexed.

Annexed? No. Turned into supper? Yes.

The lack of point-defense installations on Klingon ships will be their doom.

[Enlightenment]

This one's an easy call. The Klingons get turned into cat food.

[Peregrin Toker]

The lack of point-defense installations on Klingon ships will be their doom.

I also thought that the Klingon warships would be unsuited to handle attacks by Kilrathi fighters... however, their cloaking devices might save them for a little time...

[Eleas]

"I also thought that the Klingon warships would be unsuited to handle attacks by Kilrathi fighters... however, their cloaking devices might save them for a little time..."

Yeah. They'll probably be shocked to note that the Kilrathi have cloaking devices of their own...

[Master of Ossus]

I agree that the Kilrathi would win. Their use of antimatter rockets on several major Earthen cities, for me, was the kicker. The Klingon's strength was their ruthlessness. The Kilrathi are more ruthless. The Klingons excel in fighting on the ground. The Kilrathi are stronger, better equipped, and, from the cartoon show (which is TERRIBLE) they have ranged weapons that they use, but are also capable of using their bodies as weapons. In short, the Kilrathi are better still. The Klingons have an extremely large fleet that is considered very powerful. The Kilrathi ships appear to be more more powerful from their abilities, and they are certainly better armored. The Klingons have cloaked ships. So do the Kilrathi (although theirs aren't as heavily armed, large, or numerous). The Klingons are very territorial and would fight to the bitter end. the Kilrathi would do the same, and they would rally around Prince Thrakath, who apparently has nine lives! WC clearly has weapons designed to do damage on a planetary scale (ref. Wing Commander III, Kilrathi attacks on Earth, etc.). The Klingons have never been shown to have this ability. I think that all of the evidence indicates that the Kilrathi would win in such an engagement, given similar numbers and reasonable tactical conditions.

[His Divine Shadow]

Wing Commander is way above ST too in terms of firepower and shields and such.

[Peregrin Toker]

The Klingons excel in fighting on the ground. The Kilrathi are stronger, better equipped, and, from the cartoon show (which is TERRIBLE) they have ranged weapons that they use, but are also capable of using their bodies as weapons. c

The cartoon show?? I never knew there was a Wing Commander cartoon show. However, there was made a live-action Wing Commander movie in 1999. (funnily, the Kilrathi in the movie did only resemble the Kilrathi of the games very little!!)

[Master of Ossus]

The Klingons excel in fighting on the ground. The Kilrathi are stronger, better equipped, and, from the cartoon show (which is TERRIBLE) they have ranged weapons that they use, but are also capable of using their bodies as weapons. c

The cartoon show?? I never knew there was a Wing Commander cartoon show. However, there was made a live-action Wing Commander movie in 1999. (funnily, the Kilrathi in the movie did only resemble the Kilrathi of the games very little!!)

The ATROCIOUS cartoon show was on USA (I think). Its full title was: "Wing Commander: Academy." I saw only three episodes of it. They randomly switched between eras, piloting hellcats in one mission and rapiers in the next. Then they flew in Broadswords for no reason. Their Kilrathi enemies were all stupid, and the show had no point.

[Edi]

I didn't know about the cartoon either. I have seen the movie, and -*shudder*- it was one that should never have been made. It contradicted practically anything and everything in the games, happily mixed the eras together and generally made a complete hash of things. And the Kilrathi looked like overgrown mutant frogs to boot. Brr!

Besides, we already know from the games themselves that the Kilrathi have ranged weapons, they can be clearly seen in WC1, in one of the cutscenes (two actually, both a success and a failure one for the Brimstone missions), as well as in the cutscene in Secret Missions 1 where Thrakhath's father is executed. The beam disintegrates him completely. The effects of Kilrathi infantry ranged weapons are also seen in WC3 in case of capture and choosing to beg (futilely) for your life. Disintegration again. The cats might prefer to use their claws on their enemies, but they won't let preferences get in the way of expediency.

Oh, and the Klingons get turned into cat food. As it should be.

Edi

[Dark Primus]

This is one sided battle. I believe the Klingons will loose within one month. Kilrathi has sheer numbers, firepower, faster FTL travel (assuming klingon space is already mapped out) far larger ship building industry, troops, and they do control over a large chunk of WC galaxy.

[Master of Ossus]

I don't think that the Kilrathi have numbers on their side, but they certainly have all of the other advantages.

[Dark Primus]

I don't think that the Kilrathi have numbers on their side, but they certainly have all of the other advantages.

The war between Kilrathi and the Terran Confederation cost the lives of least 3-5 trillions humans alone, and at least a dozen trillions of cats. The Kilrathi relied on numbers while the Confed relied on technology.

Numbers came from one of the manuals from the WC games i believe. The Kilrathi do have numbers. If they were at full military strength than it's more likely they would have run over the Klingons so fast it aint funny,

[Edi]

Which manual was that? I've got WC3, 4 and Prophecy, and photocopies of the WC1 manual, and I don't recall that. Unless you mean that the Kilrathi had the strength of numbers militarily, i.e. more ships, more fighters and more ground troops. This was true at least in the beginning, and the cats did retain numerical superiority in space until the end of the war when most of their fleet was wiped out over Kilrah. Relative ground troop strengths are unknown, but it would be logical if the Confeds had more. Confed had superior transport capacity compared to the Kilrathi, who saw transports as punishment duty and considered them of no value until their losses started to affect war performance (WC: Fleet Action).

But population wise their numbers were far smaller than those of humans. This info comes from one of the WC books, Action Stations, I think, and it's only logical, the Kilrathi worlds could not support such great numbers of purely carnivorous creatures as the Kilrathi that they would ever have had equal population to the humans.

Their technology is markedly worse than Confed equivalents, at least on the fighter side, shield strength and armor thickness is typically half to two thirds that of their Confed counterparts, though armaments tend to be heavy. Capship wise the cats have better ships, at least through WC1, 2 and 3, maybe excepting the Waterloo class Confed cruiser.

Given that the Kilrathi Empire numbered several hundred systems, and the Klingons have what, a few dozen at best, and inferior technology to boot, they probably wouldn't even make for so much as a footnote in Kilrathi history...

Edi

[Dark Primus]

But population wise their numbers were far smaller than those of humans. This info comes from one of the WC books, Action Stations, I think, and it's only logical, the Kilrathi worlds could not support such great numbers of purely carnivorous creatures as the Kilrathi that they would ever have had equal population to the humans.

Doesn't matter if they were smaller or not, Confed covers larger space than the Kilrathi but their territory were more sparsly populated. Compare to Confed and the Kilrathi, the entire Kilrathi race was dedicated for warfare while at most 10% of Confed was dedicated for military. That is a huge difference.

Given that the Kilrathi Empire numbered several hundred systems, and the Klingons have what, a few dozen at best, and inferior technology to boot, they probably wouldn't even make for so much as a footnote in Kilrathi history...

Edi

Considering Klingons were able to overrun Federation in "Yesterdays Enterprise" says otherwise.

[Master of Ossus]

I think that the Klingon Empire is larger than that of the Kilrathi, but I think that WC technology is better (yes, even "crumby furball" stuff). I would expect that this would be a good fight, but I don't see how the Klingons could expect to win. They have nothing that can stand up to the Kilrathi on the ground, and their ships do not appear to have an ability to annihilate worlds in BDZ type operations, even en masse.

[Bob McDob]

I don't know much about shield strength beyond my memory of Action Stations, but I seem to remember old, obsolete "battlewagons" carrying enough shielding to withstand multimegaton impacts for "hours". These were, of course, the heavy hitters, but nevertheless it sounds as if the WC ships generally sit a magnitude above Klingon ships when talking about shields.

"It's just that - " and he hesitated. "It's just that there's a rumor that the Varni claim to have darn near destroyed a Kilrathi heavy cruiser with an all-out fighter attack. They said they should have nailed it, but the strike commander was killed and the coordinated attack to break down the phase shielding fell apart".
"The bigger the ship, the more energy generating system it contains" Turner said, as if delivering a well-worn lecture in class, "and from the energy systems they get more power for phase shielding. The only thing that limits the size of the ship is the area that the jump engine generators can encompass. That argues against the notion that fighter-size craft will ever be able to take out a battlewagon. They just don't carry enough punch, while a fifty-thousand ton battlewagon can generate enough energy to power its shields and have enough left over so that its guns coulkd annihilate a thousand fighters without getting a scratch. Sure, a couple of hundred of them hitting one single point might do that, but the heavgy antispacecraft guns of a capital ship would rip them to shreds."

"I think it's safe to say that our tech people have been fooling around with the idea of a weapon that can punch through phase shielding to nail a capital ship. I think it's safe to say they may even have developed a few primative models, but the counter is to simply increase the frequency of polarity shift to trick the warhead into thinking it's penetrated the shield, so that it blows before it's all the way through. That type of info isn't even really classified. The only way to break a shield is to hammer it so damn hard that it soaks off all the energy from the generators. And hammering means big ships with big damn guns which means battlewagons, not popgun fighters"

That's the relevant quotes, pages 50-51.

And in case you don't know, they did develop effective shield penetrators. With them, a sixty kiloton fission bomb was able to take out the skyhook at McAuliffe.

I didn't know about the cartoon either.

You can download all twelve episodes at wcnews.com .

It contradicted practically anything and everything in the games, happily mixed the eras together, and generally made a complete hash of things.

<BanditLOAF> No it didn't. </BanditLOAF>

And the Kilrathi looked like overgrown mutant frogs to boot. Brr!

They were thrown together at the last moment, since they weren't actually planning for kitty closeups, if I recall <G> They are closer to Roberts' original vision.

[Master of Ossus]

Don't bother downloading the cartoon. The characters are all crappy, the continuity is terrible, and the plots make little sense. Much like the movie....

[Bob McDob]

Don't bother downloading the cartoon. The characters are all crappy, the continuity is terrible, and the plots make little sense. Much like the movie....

I liked the movie

[Eleas]

"And in case you don't know, they did develop effective shield penetrators. With them, a sixty kiloton fission bomb was able to take out the skyhook at McAuliffe."

Wasn't McAuliffe hit by multiple shield bursters? And did I totally screw up on my megaton estimates?

[Bob McDob]

"And in case you don't know, they did develop effective shield penetrators. With them, a sixty kiloton fission bomb was able to take out the skyhook at McAuliffe."

Wasn't McAuliffe hit by multiple shield bursters? And did I totally screw up on my megaton estimates?

Yeah, sorry, my mistake.

"What the hell . . . bombers have dropped ordinance, moving Mach 10 . . ." There was a momentary pause. "The damn missiles, they're penetrating the shielding to the reactors! What the hell is going on, missiles have penetra . . ."
Ulandi felt the ground beneath his feet buckle and roll as half a dozen torpedoes, tipped with ground penetrating nuclear warheads slammed into the reactors north of the base . . . Action Stations, p. 264

Still, even though the torps took out the reactors, it was the fission bomb that did in the skyhook.

[Bob McDob]

As for the multimegaton thing, I don't see any reference to it in the book . . . I'll look now. You may be thinking of WCIVN, where it's mentioned that torpedoes are "multimegaton" - which we all know could mean anything from 2 to 999 MT, and considering Forstchen, even beyond that.

[Edi]

Doesn't matter if they were smaller or not, Confed covers larger space than the Kilrathi but their territory were more sparsly populated. Compare to Confed and the Kilrathi, the entire Kilrathi race was dedicated for warfare while at most 10% of Confed was dedicated for military. That is a huge difference.

Bzzzztt! Wrong! The Confederation is explicitly stated to have population many times the size of the Kilrathi Empire, by none other than the cats themselves, in Action stations. This is where my comment on the relative ground troop strengths comes from, the Confeds had more people to put there, so in all likelihood they did.
The Kilrathi as a species may have been very warlike and able to put more bodies on the front at first, but bigger population pool equals staying power if you can limit the fighting to the border regions. The Kilrathi would eventually have lost to attrition, except the Confeds needed the quick victory because the incredibly stupid political screwups depicted in Fleet Action landed them in deep shit. There are also references to massive hidden shipyards where fleets of Confed battleships were being constructed, somewhere on the opposite side from the Kilrathi, but I'd need to look that reference up for further discussion.

I think that the Klingon Empire is larger than that of the Kilrathi

The Kilrathi Empire had several hundred systems. How many do the Klingons have? Is the Klingon Empire larger than the Federation in ST, or the same size? And didn't the Federation only have some 150 systems or so? My impression was that they were similarly sized, which would leave the Klingons outnumbered two to one on systems and by a lot more than that in the fleet department.

Edi

[Bob McDob]

"Yes, we have a fleet, the best in the galaxy, but we don't have the infrastructure, the web of commerce. We conquer, destroy, populate a new world like a fiefdom, placing a few tens of thousands of our own blood where billions once existed. Those whom we suffer to live, labor in our factories as slaves, not as allies. We are like a hollow shell, while the Confederation is a solid mass" Baron Vakka, Action Stations, page 14

"We must rip out their throats the first day. The Confederation is larger than us, its manufacturing more developed. We must rip out their throats before they are even aware, Given that, I believe we shall win" Admiral Nargth, page 88

Those are the passages I found . . . draw your conclusions.

It's also worth noting that the Kilrathi eventually gained the momentum late in the war, first with the false treaty in 2668 which led to the Battle of Sol, devastating the Confederation's leadership and infrastructure, and then with the destruction of the Behemoth planetkiller under Admiral Tolwyn, which Confed had pinned its hopes on.

The destruction of Kilrah and the end of the war was very much a close-run thing . . . Within 48 hours a massive armada would be poised to invade Sol and finish the job they started a year earlier.