Colonial Mariens Vs. Stormtroopers

[wautd]

What would win the Colonial Marines versus Stormtroopers same number of mariens to stormtroopers lets say 12 marines and 12 stormtroopers.

Well as stated here that range matters a lot (1km range of stormies, short range of marines incinerators)

imo:
outdoor storms >>> marines
indoor storms > marines (altough i give them a little chance )

hollywood movie: marines > storms

[Laird]

Well another thing to consider is that the standard round for the smart gun/Pulse rifle is a 10mm explosive tip caseless round.(HEAP round.)

Which translates into effectiveness against stormtroopers... how?

The standard marine assault rifle is a over and under combination of a 10mm light automatic rifle and a PN 30mm pump-action grenade launcher (included in Wt.). A digital LED counter on the side informs the operator of the quantity of rounds remaining in the magazine. The M41A is almost jam-proof, self-lubricating, works under water or in vacuum. The "fire control lever" has four settings for secure, single, burst, and full-auto fire. When firing 4-round bursts the first bursts has no recoil modifier and is at +3 for determining the number hits in the group. The battery that powers the gun's motor is good for 10,000 rounds. The butt-stock of the Pulse Rifle can be retracted. It shortens the rifle and lowers the Holdout modifier to -5. Firing the rifle with the butt-stock retracted doubles felt recoil and so the recoil modifiers, too. Use the Guns (Light Automatic) skill.

The M309 10x24mmCR round, standard with the M41A1, is a TL 9 miniaturized shaped-charge round. The second damage statistic (1d-4) is explosive concussion damage inflicted to anyone nearby. Shaped-charge damage is not reduced beyond 1/2D range, but accuracy declines normally.
The M308 10x24mmCR round fires an armor piercing hollow point (p. UTT51) bullet. If damage rolled before any modifications is triple the targets DR, treat it as a hollow-point bullet: subtract twice the DR from damage and multiply the remaining damage by 1.5. Otherwise treat it as an armor-piercing bullet: halve DR, then halve any remaining damage.

[Laird]

Well another thing to consider is that the standard round for the smart gun/Pulse rifle is a 10mm explosive tip caseless round.(HEAP round.)

Which translates into effectiveness against stormtroopers... how?

The standard marine assault rifle is a over and under combination of a 10mm light automatic rifle and a PN 30mm pump-action grenade launcher (included in Wt.). A digital LED counter on the side informs the operator of the quantity of rounds remaining in the magazine. The M41A is almost jam-proof, self-lubricating, works under water or in vacuum. The "fire control lever" has four settings for secure, single, burst, and full-auto fire. When firing 4-round bursts the first bursts has no recoil modifier and is at +3 for determining the number hits in the group. The battery that powers the gun's motor is good for 10,000 rounds. The butt-stock of the Pulse Rifle can be retracted. It shortens the rifle and lowers the Holdout modifier to -5. Firing the rifle with the butt-stock retracted doubles felt recoil and so the recoil modifiers, too. Use the Guns (Light Automatic) skill.

The M309 10x24mmCR round, standard with the M41A1, is a TL 9 miniaturized shaped-charge round. The second damage statistic (1d-4) is explosive concussion damage inflicted to anyone nearby. Shaped-charge damage is not reduced beyond 1/2D range, but accuracy declines normally.
The M308 10x24mmCR round fires an armor piercing hollow point (p. UTT51) bullet. If damage rolled before any modifications is triple the targets DR, treat it as a hollow-point bullet: subtract twice the DR from damage and multiply the remaining damage by 1.5. Otherwise treat it as an armor-piercing bullet: halve DR, then halve any remaining damage.

That outta do it.

[Thirdfain]

buckshot would have crappy range and gas would be a waste.

simply examples. Other rounds included solid AP slugs and HE grenades, and incendiary devices. I was merely pointing out that they have a wide variety of projectiles available.

Still fired from the hip, placing a hard upper limit on the recoil.

the weapon is balanced by a robotic arm, which both aims the weapon and presumably acts to dampen recoil.

Incinerators are clearly not baths of hot napalm. They appear to be gasoline (or similar)-based flamethrowers.

Regardless, being coated in burning fluid would almost certainly kill a stormtrooper. It would get in between the joints, cooking the stormtrooper alive.

You don't fire crew served weapons while prone. That's because they're on friggin tripods, not butted up against your shoulder

Ridiculous. Mg-42? Crew served weapon, fired while prone. There are thousands of examples of modern MGs which one sets up on a low tripod or bipod.

Not really, no.

Explain.

They'd better be damned quick to recognize chemical agents

We've never seen USCMC troops deployed against armed enemies. It is likely that in a world where chemical weapons are so common that they are issued at the platoon level that countermeasures are radily available.

Their chests are the only areas that are armored, so shrapnel is going to get them regardless.

Their chests and their legs and their head all are armored, only their arms are exposed.

[Sea Skimmer]

the weapon is balanced by a robotic arm, which both aims the weapon and presumably acts to dampen recoil.

When you have a weapon cycling at many hundreds of rounds per minute a recoil absorption system won't make much of any difference to the user. Course, the movie shows no sign of barrel recoil or the mountings moving back closer to the users.

Regardless, being coated in burning fluid would almost certainly kill a stormtrooper. It would get in between the joints, cooking the stormtrooper alive.

Possibly, unless they've got a layer of nomex equivalent in the thing, which could well, be the case. I don't recall the full list of what the armors suppose to ward off.

Ridiculous. Mg-42? Crew served weapon, fired while prone. There are thousands of examples of modern MGs which one sets up on a low tripod or bipod.

You can do that with GPMG's, thus the general purpose bit, but you suffer a major accuracy reduction and inability to lay down sutained automatic fire. Nothing thats even close to being comprabul to an E-WEB could be fired from a bipod however, the thing is roughly the size of a Bushmaster II.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well another thing to consider is that the standard round for the smart gun/Pulse rifle is a 10mm explosive tip caseless round.(HEAP round.)

Which translates into effectiveness against stormtroopers... how?

The standard marine assault rifle is a over and under combination of a 10mm light automatic rifle and a PN 30mm pump-action grenade launcher (included in Wt.). A digital LED counter on the side informs the operator of the quantity of rounds remaining in the magazine. The M41A is almost jam-proof, self-lubricating, works under water or in vacuum. The "fire control lever" has four settings for secure, single, burst, and full-auto fire. When firing 4-round bursts the first bursts has no recoil modifier and is at +3 for determining the number hits in the group. The battery that powers the gun's motor is good for 10,000 rounds. The butt-stock of the Pulse Rifle can be retracted. It shortens the rifle and lowers the Holdout modifier to -5. Firing the rifle with the butt-stock retracted doubles felt recoil and so the recoil modifiers, too. Use the Guns (Light Automatic) skill.

The M309 10x24mmCR round, standard with the M41A1, is a TL 9 miniaturized shaped-charge round. The second damage statistic (1d-4) is explosive concussion damage inflicted to anyone nearby. Shaped-charge damage is not reduced beyond 1/2D range, but accuracy declines normally.
The M308 10x24mmCR round fires an armor piercing hollow point (p. UTT51) bullet. If damage rolled before any modifications is triple the targets DR, treat it as a hollow-point bullet: subtract twice the DR from damage and multiply the remaining damage by 1.5. Otherwise treat it as an armor-piercing bullet: halve DR, then halve any remaining damage.

That outta do it.

No, it doesn't. It tells us alot of qualitative details about how the weapon works, but it doesnt really tell us how powerful it is (muzzle energy of the projectile, the explosive yield of the projectile, etc.) How exactly is the functioning of the rifle supposed to prove that the weapon will be effective against stormtrroopers.

[Connor MacLeod]

The explosive element to the bullet is the unknown quantity. We don't know what is used- it's clearly some sort of advanced explosive.

Not a complete unknown. Aside from measuring the results in the movie, its unlikely they developed explosive compounds many orders of magnitude more powerful than what we have today - their firearms don't seem to be substantially more destructive. I bleieve there are also practical limits to how much energy a chemical reaction can generate.

Hmm, here's and idea- The grenades the pulse-rifles fire are quite small (shotgun-shell sized,) and they create some failry spectacular explosions. Anyone have a copy of Aliens, so they could perhaps measure the diameter of the fireballs the grenades produce? Knowing that and the fact that the grenades are about the size of 12-gauge shotgun shells, we could figure out the energy density of the explosive.

That might work.

I'm simply saying that without decent on-screen information about the AP capabilities of the

We can make some reasonable assumptions, however.

[Vympel]

Ridiculous. Mg-42? Crew served weapon, fired while prone. There are thousands of examples of modern MGs which one sets up on a low tripod or bipod.

The MG-42 heavy machine gun version isn't fired while prone- it's fired from a tripod. I've never seen someone fire a heavy crew served weapon from the prone position- seeing through the iron sights would be ... interesting. What Howedar seems to have had in mind was heavy machine guns and the like, rather than light.

It doesn't really matter anyway. A New Hope gives quite a good account of the weapons the Stormtroopers have at their disposal- E-11 blaster carbines, T-21 light repeating blasters, and DLT-19 heavy blaster rifle. There's also an unidentified additional heavy blaster rifle. The T-21s probably provide the base of fire, the DLT-19s and the other one form the clonetrooper style rifle part.

Their chests and their legs and their head all are armored, only their arms are exposed.

A helmet without any facial protection isn't really armored; besides, only their shins are armored, not all their legs, and the smart gun troops have even less armor than the other types. Shrapnel will basically cripple them or kill them, depending.

[Soulman]

The tech manual says that the Pulse Rifle fires 10 mm x 24 round at a muzzle velocity of 840m/s. The grenade launcher's AP round can penetrate 70mm of steel. The armour only provides limited protection againt rifle rounds.

[Connor MacLeod]

The tech manual says that the Pulse Rifle fires 10 mm x 24 round at a muzzle velocity of 840m/s. The grenade launcher's AP round can penetrate 70mm of steel. The armour only provides limited protection againt rifle rounds.

your average 10 mm round is probably around 10-12 grams (this is for a chemically-propelled projectile weapon though, the pulse rifles seem to be more electromagnetically propelled, so may be much lighther)

For a 10 gram bullet, ,the kinetic energy is roughly 3528 joules and 8.4 kg*m/s worth of momentum (a bit high on the recoil side for most rifles I believe). If it were say, only half that (5 grams.. slightly heavier than a 5.56 mm rifle bullet IIRC) - ~1764 joules, 4.2 kg*m/s worth of momentum (a bit more managable, but still kinda high for a rifle I think.)

[wautd]

Stormy armor probably capable of repelling the Marine's AP rounds, but then again, maybe not.

So...

A)

armor doesnt stop bullets -> dead/wounded stormie

B) (this would be a bit more difficult i guess)

Say the armor is completely bulletsproof to the marine AP rounds, what would happen to the stormtrooper when he gets a full volley of the pulse rife

[Howedar]

The MG-42 heavy machine gun version isn't fired while prone- it's fired from a tripod. I've never seen someone fire a heavy crew served weapon from the prone position- seeing through the iron sights would be ... interesting. What Howedar seems to have had in mind was heavy machine guns and the like, rather than light.

Right. A SAW, for example, is a one-man weapon.

[Connor MacLeod]

for the grenade: assuming a shaped-charge for armor penetration (probably the most efficient)

Modern shaped-charges (at least on an anti-tank rocket) release around 2-10 Megajoules (approximately) worth of energy onto a single point and penetrate hundreds of mm worth of armor. This suggests that the grenade (and by extension, the bullets) explosive is probably equal to alot less than half a kilo of explosive.

Basically this is consistent with what I've been estimating, and does not suggest to me in any way some sort of extraordinary "power" or capability on the part of the Colonial Marines (unless there is further evidence to bring forth)

[Connor MacLeod]

Stormy armor probably capable of repelling the Marine's AP rounds, but then again, maybe not.

So...

A)

armor doesnt stop bullets -> dead/wounded stormie

Given that we're talking about automatic weapons in the human range (IE no extraorindary recoil), its unlikely that the rounds penetrate (unless they are exceptionally energetic, which must be proven.)

B.) (this would be a bit more difficult i guess)

Say the armor is completely bulletsproof to the marine AP rounds, what would happen to the stormtrooper when he gets a full volley of the pulse rife

The momentum of the multiple impacts would probably knock them around alot and bruise them, but probably not kill them outright.

[Black Admiral]

Basically this is consistent with what I've been estimating, and does not suggest to me in any way some sort of extraordinary "power" or capability on the part of the Colonial Marines (unless there is further evidence to bring forth)

There's things like the PIG, HIMAT, SADAR, etc. but I don't have my copy of the tech manual handy, so I can't tell you what those can do.

[wautd]

The momentum of the multiple impacts would probably knock them around alot and bruise them, but probably not kill them outright.

enough they pass out?

[Laird]

Basically this is consistent with what I've been estimating, and does not suggest to me in any way some sort of extraordinary "power" or capability on the part of the Colonial Marines (unless there is further evidence to bring forth)

There's things like the PIG, HIMAT, SADAR, etc. but I don't have my copy of the tech manual handy, so I can't tell you what those can do.

Yeah the Plasma infantry gun, Anti armour weapon ment to kill CM tanks in one shot, Don't forget about "Phased particle beam phalanx" "you could fry half a puppy with this thing".

[Black Admiral]

Yeah the Plasma infantry gun, Anti armour weapon ment to kill CM tanks in one shot, Don't forget about "Phased particle beam phalanx" "you could fry half a puppy with this thing".

Yeah, that's a bad 'un, but I was talking more infantry weapons.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Yeah the Plasma infantry gun, Anti armour weapon ment to kill CM tanks in one shot, Don't forget about "Phased particle beam phalanx" "you could fry half a puppy with this thing".

I believe it was "fry half a city..."

Oh, and hyperbole doesn't count for crap, by the way.

[Mutant Headcrab]

You know, I have my copy of the tech manual laying around somewhere around here. Ill see if I can find it and get information for the PIG and what not posted.

While I do like the marines, I really doubt that they'll win this scenario.

[wautd]

enough they pass out?

hello?
Is het possible the stormies fall unconsieus after a hit?

[Ghost Rider]

It's been only two fucking hours....wait and maybe he'll reply when he comes onto the board.

[Howedar]

hello?
Is het possible the stormies fall unconsieus after a hit?

Yes, it's like a giant sleep ray

Have you ever passed out from a bruise?

[Lord of the Farce]

hello?
Is het possible the stormies fall unconsieus after a hit?

In the recent Star Wars novel "Tatooine Ghost", Han & Leia (wearing stolen Stormtrooper armour) as well as a whole bunch of Stormtroopers battle against Tuskens (with their slugthrowers) and each other. At one point, Han gets hit in the head by one of those slugs and it almost knocks him out. Mind you, these slugs hit hard enough to consistently knock whoever they hit off their feet, but:

He glanced through the opening and found a dozen stormtroopers only ten meters away, still coming despite a hail of Tusken slugs. One fell to a hit through the lens, another with a wound through the throat, but most were simply falling as the projectiles splattered against their armor, then popping back up an instant later.

[Laird]

Yeah the Plasma infantry gun, Anti armour weapon ment to kill CM tanks in one shot, Don't forget about "Phased particle beam phalanx" "you could fry half a puppy with this thing".

I believe it was "fry half a city..."

Oh, and hyperbole doesn't count for crap, by the way.

BAH! I misquoted my favorie movie I am shamed.

*Hides away in a corner.*