Colonial Mariens Vs. Stormtroopers

[Soulman]

You know, I have my copy of the tech manual laying around somewhere around here. Ill see if I can find it and get information for the PIG and what not posted.

While I do like the marines, I really doubt that they'll win this scenario.

On the PIG:
"The M78 PIG is a man portable anti-armour weapon. Weighing 15.2kg in it's entirity... The M78 is a 15mW phased plasma system firing vaporized Cadmium Telluride pellets from a 30 round feed... The penetrating power of the system is considerable and it is claimed to be able to breach the flank armour of a heavy tank at 1000m."

[wautd]

hello?
Is het possible the stormies fall unconsieus after a hit?

In the recent Star Wars novel "Tatooine Ghost", Han & Leia (wearing stolen Stormtrooper armour) as well as a whole bunch of Stormtroopers battle against Tuskens (with their slugthrowers) and each other. At one point, Han gets hit in the head by one of those slugs and it almost knocks him out. Mind you, these slugs hit hard enough to consistently knock whoever they hit off their feet, but:

He glanced through the opening and found a dozen stormtroopers only ten meters away, still coming despite a hail of Tusken slugs. One fell to a hit through the lens, another with a wound through the throat, but most were simply falling as the projectiles splattered against their armor, then popping back up an instant later.

impressive

[Connor MacLeod]

You know, I have my copy of the tech manual laying around somewhere around here. Ill see if I can find it and get information for the PIG and what not posted.

While I do like the marines, I really doubt that they'll win this scenario.

On the PIG:
"The M78 PIG is a man portable anti-armour weapon. Weighing 15.2kg in it's entirity... The M78 is a 15mW phased plasma system firing vaporized Cadmium Telluride pellets from a 30 round feed... The penetrating power of the system is considerable and it is claimed to be able to breach the flank armour of a heavy tank at 1000m."

15 megawatt.. 1000 km range... 30 rounds.. what sort of rate of fire? It strikes me more of the Marine version of an Antimateriel rifle... and if they need that to beat the stormies, they're still dead.

[DPDarkPrimus]

The rate of fire is horrendous, it takes 3 second to fire, most of which is cycling up.

[Black Admiral]

15 megawatt.. 1000 km range... 30 rounds.. what sort of rate of fire? It strikes me more of the Marine version of an Antimateriel rifle... and if they need that to beat the stormies, they're still dead.

Um, Connor, you just overstated the range by about 1000 times.

Right, now, the M-5 RPG;

Each 2.2kg round is a 60 mm hypervelocity spin-stabilised rpcket with an impact-fused supercritical HEAT wrahead... accurate range of approximately 400 m and a maximum range of 2000 m. Though the rocket's warhead has little chance agianst medium and heavy tank armour, it has proven popular and effective for use in its secondary against infantry in bunkers and building strongpoints.

[Laird]

You know, I have my copy of the tech manual laying around somewhere around here. Ill see if I can find it and get information for the PIG and what not posted.

While I do like the marines, I really doubt that they'll win this scenario.

On the PIG:
"The M78 PIG is a man portable anti-armour weapon. Weighing 15.2kg in it's entirity... The M78 is a 15mW phased plasma system firing vaporized Cadmium Telluride pellets from a 30 round feed... The penetrating power of the system is considerable and it is claimed to be able to breach the flank armour of a heavy tank at 1000m."

Seeing as you have a copy of the tech manual around.(Mine has seemed to up'ed and walked off.) Think you could post some info on the marines body armour, the smartgun(I am sure it fires a diffrent round then the M41-A), the M41-A (Sniper version.)

Question to the person in the OP, Can we count weapons from the AVP games? ( I would very much like to see stormtrooper armour stand up to railgun rounds.)

[wautd]

15 megawatt.. 1000 km range... 30 rounds.. what sort of rate of fire? It strikes me more of the Marine version of an Antimateriel rifle... and if they need that to beat the stormies, they're still dead.

Um, Connor, you just overstated the range by about 1000 times.

Right, now, the M-5 RPG;

Each 2.2kg round is a 60 mm hypervelocity spin-stabilised rpcket with an impact-fused supercritical HEAT wrahead... accurate range of approximately 400 m and a maximum range of 2000 m. Though the rocket's warhead has little chance agianst medium and heavy tank armour, it has proven popular and effective for use in its secondary against infantry in bunkers and building strongpoints.

A hit between the eyes at 1000km range would be an ace shot (or very very very very very VERY lucky )

[Black Admiral]

Seeing as you have a copy of the tech manual around.(Mine has seemed to up'ed and walked off.) Think you could post some info on the marines body armour, the smartgun(I am sure it fires a diffrent round then the M41-A), the M41-A (Sniper version.)

*cracks open tech manual*

The M-3 personal armour:

The outer layer of the sandwich is an ultra-light titanium aluminide alloy to provide structural strength and ablative protection against lasers. Beneath this is a core, consisting of a laer of boron crabide, resin bonded to a layer of graphite-composite carbon-fiber. Boron carbide is an incredibly hard ceramic designed to shatter a bulet on impact while simultaneously forming a conoid base to absorb its energy. Beneath this, the carbon-fiber layer provides ballistic protection at the point of penetration by delaminating across a large area, so absorbing more energy. Finally, on the inside of the armour is a woven liner made of 15000 denier Venlar fibers. This woven layer dissipates the remainder of the energy by deforming in the area of in impact, and is also able to catch any spalling or fragmentation from the first three layers. Since any bullet or fragment impact on the armour shell tends to compromise its integrity and ability to provide ballistic protection, it is standard pratice to replace any affected sections immediately.

Smartgun ammo is the M250 series 10 mm x 28 rounds. Heres the relevant stats:

The M250 10mm x 28 ammunition is a 230 grain (14.9 gram) caseless projectile encased in a rectangular block of nitramine. Higher powered than the M309 round for the pulse rifle, the M250 also differs in having a selectable fuse setting. A switch on the hand grip is used to select the ammunition fusing, which is set electronically as the round is loaded into the chamber. The 'Super' setting us optimised against soft targets and will detonate the round on impact, while the 'Delay' setting explodes the shell only after penetrating the target armour.

And the sniper rifle, the M42A:

The M42A is a 10mm pulse action semi-automatic rifle employed as the primary sniper weapon of the USCM. THis rifle is a kep component of battalion operations; its long range and precision extending the tactical zone of control by up to a kilometer or more, subject to local terrain. The rifle is issued on a scale of one per company, though it is normally held for use in a battalion controlled pool of up to four Scout-Snipers.

The M 42 is laid out in a bullpup configuration, with a casing of titanium aluminide over a duratel frame. Up to six plastic spacers are supplied for adjusting the butt length to the idividual Scout-Sniper. An overhead rail carries a folding bipod clear of the barrel. The internal mechanism is designed to have a high degree of commonality with the M41 - using the same rotating breech and feed - though it is chambered for the match-standard 10mm x 28 caseless round. The barrel is free-floating with a right-handed twist and is contained within a protective shroud and receiver housing. Barrel options included a flash supressor or a muzzle brake for long-range shooting. Ammunition feed is from a 15 round Match Rounds magazine inserted beneath the stock of the rifle, behind the thumb-hole of the pistol grip.

The match-standard M252 HEAP round has a maximum effective range of 2,950 meters. A long-range stabilised ball round is also available, with an effective range of 3,800 meters. The factory standard M250 smart gun round can be used with no adaptation, though it has an effective range well under 2,000 meters. Fusing for the M250.M252 ammunition is controlled from a seperate selector switch.

A combined, multi-spectral twenty power passive sensor scope is mounted over the receiver. The scope display shows a composite image based on visual, infrared and electromagnetic emissions. The scope display can be augmented by input from the local sensor matrix via a digital comms broadcast or direct direct optic cable link. Motion trackers, ground radar, lidar and IR sensors may all be linked into the rifle; furthermore, the optional PARGET - exact detailks of which are classified - is apparently able to connect the rifle into the local sentry gun matrix, allowing the Scout-Sniper to redirect sentry gun firing arcs when in hot contact.

[Connor MacLeod]

Question to the person in the OP, Can we count weapons from the AVP games? ( I would very much like to see stormtrooper armour stand up to railgun rounds.)

Are these railgun rounds personal weapons (IE fired by an individual?)

[Connor MacLeod]

15 megawatt.. 1000 km range... 30 rounds.. what sort of rate of fire? It strikes me more of the Marine version of an Antimateriel rifle... and if they need that to beat the stormies, they're still dead.

Um, Connor, you just overstated the range by about 1000 times.

Dang. Well, still, it seems likely that 15 MW (or MJ, if we assume a 1 second duration.. if its much less, like .25 second, the energgy could be alot lower )

Right, now, the M-5 RPG;

Each 2.2kg round is a 60 mm hypervelocity spin-stabilised rpcket with an impact-fused supercritical HEAT wrahead... accurate range of approximately 400 m and a maximum range of 2000 m. Though the rocket's warhead has little chance agianst medium and heavy tank armour, it has proven popular and effective for use in its secondary against infantry in bunkers and building strongpoints.

Its also less powerful apparently than the plasma gun... IT looks like the plasma weapon defines the firm upper limit on Marine weapons.

[Connor MacLeod]

The rate of fire is horrendous, it takes 3 second to fire, most of which is cycling up.

Well, if we're generous, we could *assume* that 15 "megawatts" refers to the sustained "charge rate' of the weapon, meaning that it actually pumps out 45 megajoules per shot (although I doubt this.)

[Connor MacLeod]

The rate of fire is horrendous, it takes 3 second to fire, most of which is cycling up.

Well, if we're generous, we could *assume* that 15 "megawatts" refers to the sustained "charge rate' of the weapon, meaning that it actually pumps out 45 megajoules per shot (although I doubt this.)

[Black Admiral]

Dang. Well, still, it seems likely that 15 MW (or MJ, if we assume a 1 second duration.. if its much less, like .25 second, the energgy could be alot lower )

Unfortunately, the shoit duration never gets stated.

Its also less powerful apparently than the plasma gun... IT looks like the plasma weapon defines the firm upper limit on Marine weapons.

There's at least one heavier weapon: the UA 571-D sentry gun, which mounts a 20 MW laser. It's part of the same family as the sentry gun we see in Aleins; that one was the -C variant, whic uses what is, effectively, a turreted smartgun.

There are some vehicle mounted weapons that out do the PIG as well, but if the Marines need those to kill stormies, they really are fucked.

[Connor MacLeod]

The outer layer of the sandwich is an ultra-light titanium aluminide alloy to provide structural strength and ablative protection against lasers. Beneath this is a core, consisting of a laer of boron crabide, resin bonded to a layer of graphite-composite carbon-fiber. Boron carbide is an incredibly hard ceramic designed to shatter a bulet on impact while simultaneously forming a conoid base to absorb its energy. Beneath this, the carbon-fiber layer provides ballistic protection at the point of penetration by delaminating across a large area, so absorbing more energy. Finally, on the inside of the armour is a woven liner made of 15000 denier Venlar fibers. This woven layer dissipates the remainder of the energy by deforming in the area of in impact, and is also able to catch any spalling or fragmentation from the first three layers. Since any bullet or fragment impact on the armour shell tends to compromise its integrity and ability to provide ballistic protection, it is standard pratice to replace any affected sections immediately.

Short and long of it, it seems primarily an anti-ballistic defense than a defense agianst energy weapons (although it has anti-laser properties).
Given the unliklihood of the armor deflecting plasma rounds, that also probably represents an upper limit on its energy-handling capabilities.

This brings up the question: do they use personal laser weapons, and if so, what does the manual say about them?

Smartgun ammo is the M250 series 10 mm x 28 rounds. Heres the relevant stats:

The M250 10mm x 28 ammunition is a 230 grain (14.9 gram) caseless projectile encased in a rectangular block of nitramine. Higher powered than the M309 round for the pulse rifle, the M250 also differs in having a selectable fuse setting. A switch on the hand grip is used to select the ammunition fusing, which is set electronically as the round is loaded into the chamber. The 'Super' setting us optimised against soft targets and will detonate the round on impact, while the 'Delay' setting explodes the shell only after penetrating the target armour.

Man, do they use anything ASIDE from a 10mm round?

Anyhow, we can derive muzzle velocity from estimated recoil if we know the mass. Assuming a generous recoil of say, 20 kg*m/s (this is very high.. equivalent to modern AMR weapons) and a ~15 gram round, we're talking approximately 1334 m/s. Kinetic energy of such a round would be
13.4 kilojoules, approximately.

And the sniper rifle, the M42A:

The M42A is a 10mm pulse action semi-automatic rifle employed as the primary sniper weapon of the USCM. THis rifle is a kep component of battalion operations; its long range and precision extending the tactical zone of control by up to a kilometer or more, subject to local terrain. The rifle is issued on a scale of one per company, though it is normally held for use in a battalion controlled pool of up to four Scout-Snipers.

The M 42 is laid out in a bullpup configuration, with a casing of titanium aluminide over a duratel frame. Up to six plastic spacers are supplied for adjusting the butt length to the idividual Scout-Sniper. An overhead rail carries a folding bipod clear of the barrel. The internal mechanism is designed to have a high degree of commonality with the M41 - using the same rotating breech and feed - though it is chambered for the match-standard 10mm x 28 caseless round. The barrel is free-floating with a right-handed twist and is contained within a protective shroud and receiver housing. Barrel options included a flash supressor or a muzzle brake for long-range shooting. Ammunition feed is from a 15 round Match Rounds magazine inserted beneath the stock of the rifle, behind the thumb-hole of the pistol grip.

The match-standard M252 HEAP round has a maximum effective range of 2,950 meters. A long-range stabilised ball round is also available, with an effective range of 3,800 meters. The factory standard M250 smart gun round can be used with no adaptation, though it has an effective range well under 2,000 meters. Fusing for the M250.M252 ammunition is controlled from a seperate selector switch.

A combined, multi-spectral twenty power passive sensor scope is mounted over the receiver. The scope display shows a composite image based on visual, infrared and electromagnetic emissions. The scope display can be augmented by input from the local sensor matrix via a digital comms broadcast or direct direct optic cable link. Motion trackers, ground radar, lidar and IR sensors may all be linked into the rifle; furthermore, the optional PARGET - exact detailks of which are classified - is apparently able to connect the rifle into the local sentry gun matrix, allowing the Scout-Sniper to redirect sentry gun firing arcs when in hot contact.

Long range. I believe that *probably* will require a hypersonic velocitty (or nearly so - which means 5x the speed of sound) (which if we're talking a 10-15 gram projectile, has a helluva high muzzle velocity) Muzzle velocity is probably very high, but this also means the gun is gonna have a helluva lot of recoil (AMR-grade recoil) - kinetic energgy is probably going to be in the tens of kj, and probably tens of kg*m/s worth of momentum. Just a guess, though.

[Connor MacLeod]

Dang. Well, still, it seems likely that 15 MW (or MJ, if we assume a 1 second duration.. if its much less, like .25 second, the energgy could be alot lower )

Unfortunately, the shoit duration never gets stated.

Well, its unlikely to be more than 50 MJ in any case (if we assume that its 15 MW*3 seconds duration.. but that doesnt seem likely)

15-50 MJ seems a probably upper limit.

There's at least one heavier weapon: the UA 571-D sentry gun, which mounts a 20 MW laser. It's part of the same family as the sentry gun we see in Aleins; that one was the -C variant, whic uses what is, effectively, a turreted smartgun.

Hmm.. is that a personal weapon, or not though? It woudl still probably be an upper limit in any case.

There are some vehicle mounted weapons that out do the PIG as well, but if the Marines need those to kill stormies, they really are fucked.

PIG's are able to penetrate heavy tank armor (apparently) - if they need that much power to penetrate stormtrooper armor, they're fucked. (and that seems likely - as I said, several sources tend to put blaster outputs in the MJ range, and the armor is designed to make blaster shots survivable - they absorb enough energy ot prevent the soldier from being killed.)

[Black Admiral]

Short and long of it, it seems primarily an anti-ballistic defense than a defense agianst energy weapons (although it has anti-laser properties).
Given the unliklihood of the armor deflecting plasma rounds, that also probably represents an upper limit on its energy-handling capabilities.

This brings up the question: do they use personal laser weapons, and if so, what does the manual say about them?

Not personal lasers, but anti-missile/vehicle 40 MW free-pulsing electron lasers, plus the 20 MW lasers used by -C variant sentry guns do exist.

Man, do they use anything ASIDE from a 10mm round?

Probably standardisation; I'll leave the accuracy of this to those with more experience in logistics than me, but wouldn't it be easier to supply their forces if all the infantry use an at least vaguely similar round types?

Anyhow, we can derive muzzle velocity from estimated recoil if we know the mass. Assuming a generous recoil of say, 20 kg*m/s (this is very high.. equivalent to modern AMR weapons) and a ~15 gram round, we're talking approximately 1334 m/s. Kinetic energy of such a round would be
13.4 kilojoules, approximately.

Long range. I believe that *probably* will require a hypersonic velocitty (or nearly so - which means 5x the speed of sound) (which if we're talking a 10-15 gram projectile, has a helluva high muzzle velocity) Muzzle velocity is probably very high, but this also means the gun is gonna have a helluva lot of recoil (AMR-grade recoil) - kinetic energgy is probably going to be in the tens of kj, and probably tens of kg*m/s worth of momentum. Just a guess, though.

I'd post more info on the sniper rifle, but that's it.

[Black Admiral]

Well, its unlikely to be more than 50 MJ in any case (if we assume that its 15 MW*3 seconds duration.. but that doesnt seem likely)

15-50 MJ seems a probably upper limit.

That seems about right.

Hmm.. is that a personal weapon, or not though? It woudl still probably be an upper limit in any case.

The Marines do cary them; there are three main variants in use; -C, the laser version; -F, which mounts a 40-mil automatic grenade launcher; and the -D variant, which has a smartgun strapped to it.

PIG's are able to penetrate heavy tank armor (apparently) - if they need that much power to penetrate stormtrooper armor, they're fucked. (and that seems likely - as I said, several sources tend to put blaster outputs in the MJ range, and the armor is designed to make blaster shots survivable - they absorb enough energy ot prevent the soldier from being killed.)

The PIG can pierce a heavy tank's (probably the M40 Ridgeway, which is the only heavy tank the manual mentions) flank armour at about a kilometer out. So, that's the USCM's heaviest infantry carried weapon.

Just as an aside, and no really to do with this debate, what'd be a ball park figure for doing this:

But despite that ten percent loss ratio, the remaining fighters put over two thousand antimatter warheads into the quadrant of Planet I that was their target on that pass.

The target surface erupted into a myriad pinpricks of dazzling brightness. From those that were ocean strikes, complex patterns of tsunami began to radiate, blasting across the planetary oceans at hundreds of kilometers per hour like the outriders of Armageddon. More explosions flashed and glared, leaping up in waves and clusters of brilliant devastation.

Behind and below her, bits of antimatter were released from their nonmaterial restraints and the planet rocked to energy releases beyond the dreams of any gods human minds had ever imagined. For an instant, an entire planetary quadrant was one vast undifferentiated glare. Then as it faded, enourmous fireballs were seen to swell, often touching each other and merging, growing until their tops flattened because they'd reached altitudes where there was insufficient air to superheat.

The city seemed huge, indestructible and invulnerable. But the FRAM she fired into its heart was a weapon designed for deep-space combat, using the inconceivable energies of matter-antimatter annihilation to produce a blast that was terifying even when there was no atmosphere to carry the shockwave and thermal pulse. Its designers, surely, had never imagined it being set for a ground burst on a Terra-type planet.

Irma's fighter had shot ahead at Mach 5, streaking over the city and beyond it, before the event - "explosion" was a banality - occured. Her view aft simply shut down, and she hauled her nose up, seeking vacuum ahead of the expanding sphere of hell.

Then she spared a glance to port, and another to starboard. She'd been part of the first wave to hit the surface, but others had followed. It was as if a wall of inconceivable fireballs marched across the planet's nightside, leaving burnt out lifelessness behind it - a landscape lit by firestorms and the glow of lava oozing up through the splits and cracks in the planet's skin.

[Lord Jax]

on the smartgun and the M14A2 pulse rifle both have tracer rounds

[Laird]

Question to the person in the OP, Can we count weapons from the AVP games? ( I would very much like to see stormtrooper armour stand up to railgun rounds.)

Are these railgun rounds personal weapons (IE fired by an individual?)

Yes.
WY-102 Sniper Rifle, has 30 round magazine.

[Lord Jax]

also here is something do you guys agree on the marines useing weyland-yutani weaponary?

[DPDarkPrimus]

also here is something do you guys agree on the marines useing weyland-yutani weaponary?

The USCMC manual doesn't really say anything too specific. There ARE several OTHER uberlarge corporations besides WY... as the manual says in a transcript, the high-ups in charge of sending out a crew to the colony had very large holdings of WY stock.

[Connor MacLeod]

Question to the person in the OP, Can we count weapons from the AVP games? ( I would very much like to see stormtrooper armour stand up to railgun rounds.)

Are these railgun rounds personal weapons (IE fired by an individual?)

Yes.
WY-102 Sniper Rifle, has 30 round magazine.

Unless the person firing it has superhuhman strength or can reattach his limbs, I doubt the weapon's recoil is any greater than that of any other kind of projectile weapon.

[Laird]

Are these railgun rounds personal weapons (IE fired by an individual?)

Yes.
WY-102 Sniper Rifle, has 30 round magazine.

Unless the person firing it has superhuhman strength or can reattach his limbs, I doubt the weapon's recoil is any greater than that of any other kind of projectile weapon.

To bad,it's canon and you can't bitch about the physics.

[Darth Wong]

To bad,it's canon and you can't bitch about the physics.

What precisely is canon about it? We saw the gun in the movie; it obviously didn't have huge recoil, nor did it seem to cause particularly great damage to anything it hit.

[Connor MacLeod]

Yes.
WY-102 Sniper Rifle, has 30 round magazine.

Unless the person firing it has superhuhman strength or can reattach his limbs, I doubt the weapon's recoil is any greater than that of any other kind of projectile weapon.

To bad,it's canon and you can't bitch about the physics.

Fine, what's the canon recoil? Is it flinging humans back at high speeds? If not, then it ain't much more powerful than a conventional gun (It might be on the high end of rifles, say AMR, but the fact a human can fire it still applies an upper limit.) There's no way in hell the weapon can generate enough momentum to breach stormtrooper armor without propelling the soldier holding the gun back. And in terms of enerrgy... that's already been dealt with.