Colonial Mariens Vs. Stormtroopers

[Soulman]

Unless the person firing it has superhuhman strength or can reattach his limbs, I doubt the weapon's recoil is any greater than that of any other kind of projectile weapon.

Does anyone know the limit for the amount of force that can be applied to an impenetrable plate of chest armour before the person wearing it suffers disabling injuries? How are the back and front parts of a Stormies armour held together? If the front plate has a lot of movement it will probably be bad for the Stormie, also would a headshot from a Pulse Rifle be powerful enough to snap the Stormies head back badly enough to kill him?

To bad,it's canon and you can't bitch about the physics.

Fine, what's the canon recoil? Is it flinging humans back at high speeds? If not, then it ain't much more powerful than a conventional gun (It might be on the high end of rifles, say AMR, but the fact a human can fire it still applies an upper limit.) There's no way in hell the weapon can generate enough momentum to breach stormtrooper armor without propelling the soldier holding the gun back. And in terms of enerrgy... that's already been dealt with.

[Soulman]

Sorry, screwed the above post up.

Does anyone know the limit for the amount of force that can be applied to an impenetrable plate of chest armour before the person wearing it suffers disabling injuries? How are the back and front parts of a Stormies armour held together? If the front plate has a lot of movement it will probably be bad for the Stormie, also would a headshot from a Pulse Rifle be powerful enough to snap the Stormies head back badly enough to kill him?

[Laird]

To bad,it's canon and you can't bitch about the physics.

What precisely is canon about it? We saw the gun in the movie; it obviously didn't have huge recoil, nor did it seem to cause particularly great damage to anything it hit.

This isn't from the movies mike, It is a weapon from Aliens vs predator 2.

[Laird]

Fine, what's the canon recoil? Is it flinging humans back at high speeds? If not, then it ain't much more powerful than a conventional gun (It might be on the high end of rifles, say AMR, but the fact a human can fire it still applies an upper limit.) There's no way in hell the weapon can generate enough momentum to breach stormtrooper armor without propelling the soldier holding the gun back. And in terms of enerrgy... that's already been dealt with.

Well the in game physics allow it to kill an alien queen with one shot.(There is no visible recoil other then if you aren't crouching you can't hit shit.)

[Laird]

Fine, what's the canon recoil? Is it flinging humans back at high speeds? If not, then it ain't much more powerful than a conventional gun (It might be on the high end of rifles, say AMR, but the fact a human can fire it still applies an upper limit.) There's no way in hell the weapon can generate enough momentum to breach stormtrooper armor without propelling the soldier holding the gun back. And in terms of enerrgy... that's already been dealt with.

Well the in game physics allow it to kill an alien queen with one shot.(There is no visible recoil other then if you aren't crouching you can't hit shit.)

Bah I can't stand the lack of an edit button, anyways if it helps at all there is a picture of the said weapon http://www.planetavp.com/images/avp2scr ... ilgun1.jpg

[SirNitram]

Fine, what's the canon recoil? Is it flinging humans back at high speeds? If not, then it ain't much more powerful than a conventional gun (It might be on the high end of rifles, say AMR, but the fact a human can fire it still applies an upper limit.) There's no way in hell the weapon can generate enough momentum to breach stormtrooper armor without propelling the soldier holding the gun back. And in terms of enerrgy... that's already been dealt with.

Well the in game physics allow it to kill an alien queen with one shot.(There is no visible recoil other then if you aren't crouching you can't hit shit.)

Oh, well then. I guess I better fetch my WEG calc's for the armor durability.

[Connor MacLeod]

Fine, what's the canon recoil? Is it flinging humans back at high speeds? If not, then it ain't much more powerful than a conventional gun (It might be on the high end of rifles, say AMR, but the fact a human can fire it still applies an upper limit.) There's no way in hell the weapon can generate enough momentum to breach stormtrooper armor without propelling the soldier holding the gun back. And in terms of enerrgy... that's already been dealt with.

Well the in game physics allow it to kill an alien queen with one shot.(There is no visible recoil other then if you aren't crouching you can't hit shit.)

Then unless we're talking a grgeatly augmented human (unlikely, what I recall from Aliens universe) the recoil can't exceed human tolerances. Might mean its about as powerful as an AMR as I said, but how does the Alien Queen prove its powerful? If you hit anything in the right spot, you can kill it in a single shot.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Fine, what's the canon recoil? Is it flinging humans back at high speeds? If not, then it ain't much more powerful than a conventional gun (It might be on the high end of rifles, say AMR, but the fact a human can fire it still applies an upper limit.) There's no way in hell the weapon can generate enough momentum to breach stormtrooper armor without propelling the soldier holding the gun back. And in terms of enerrgy... that's already been dealt with.

Well the in game physics allow it to kill an alien queen with one shot.(There is no visible recoil other then if you aren't crouching you can't hit shit.)

Then unless we're talking a grgeatly augmented human (unlikely, what I recall from Aliens universe) the recoil can't exceed human tolerances. Might mean its about as powerful as an AMR as I said, but how does the Alien Queen prove its powerful? If you hit anything in the right spot, you can kill it in a single shot.

Pulse rifle rounds bounce off the Queen no matter where you shoot at it. She is invunerable to them....or it at least seemed that way when I was shooting her.

[Connor MacLeod]

Sorry, screwed the above post up.

Does anyone know the limit for the amount of force that can be applied to an impenetrable plate of chest armour before the person wearing it suffers disabling injuries? How are the back and front parts of a Stormies armour held together? If the front plate has a lot of movement it will probably be bad for the Stormie, also would a headshot from a Pulse Rifle be powerful enough to snap the Stormies head back badly enough to kill him?

Offhand, no, but yeah, if you apply enough forcec to the armor its still possible to kill the trooper even if you don't penetrate the armor. (So you could snap his neck or knock them out, for example.)

Offhand, I don't think its very likely that personal weapons have the kind of momentum required to do this, though, unless we're talking some precisely-aimed full auto bursts or one is VERY lucky.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well the in game physics allow it to kill an alien queen with one shot.(There is no visible recoil other then if you aren't crouching you can't hit shit.)

Then unless we're talking a grgeatly augmented human (unlikely, what I recall from Aliens universe) the recoil can't exceed human tolerances. Might mean its about as powerful as an AMR as I said, but how does the Alien Queen prove its powerful? If you hit anything in the right spot, you can kill it in a single shot.

Pulse rifle rounds bounce off the Queen no matter where you shoot at it. She is invunerable to them....or it at least seemed that way when I was shooting her.

That just makes the pulse rifle substantially weaker than a single railgun round, then (I wouldn't put too much faith in game mechanics though - I don't believe that the bullets could do absolutely NO damage whatsoever, unless we're talking an immense discrepancy in muzzle energy/projectile momentum.)

[Shok Teenik]

[quote="Kamikazie Sith"}Pulse rifle rounds bounce off the Queen no matter where you shoot at it. She is invunerable to them....or it at least seemed that way when I was shooting her.[/quote]

IMHO, this is game mechanics and has nothing to do with canon. the Queen is the "boss" in the games, thus you can't have her getting killed that easily. same thing with the Praetorians; I'd think a smart gun would dispatch them fairly easily, and I seriously doubt you'd be that much worse off with a pulse rifle, aiming for the legs.

now, how does suspension of disbelief work in these matters? I mean, there's the example of the Kick-Ass Minigun(tm) from Predator, used by the Colonial Marines in the first AvP game, and we know from canon it can level a forest and blow it to bits, but it's also shown to be hand-held. we know it should have a huge recoil; we know it doesn't. shouldn't it just be accepted under SoD that it can kick a whole lot of ass, despite the physics disparity?

as for lasers, if the first AvP game has some level of officiality, we know man-portable heavy laser weapons are a possibility. the Xenoborgs have them implanted in their arms, and they can carve up anything the game can throw at them rather quickly. humans get chopped up in seconds.

ooh, not to mention the exosuits from AvP2, armed with a heavy machine gun, a grenade launcher, a laser cannon and a flame thrower. they're not very well armored, though ... but are pretty damn mobile.

and there's also the matter of Combat Synths, who could possibly handle more recoil than your average human and handle with ease weapons that normal grunts couldn't even carry ....
and how about the EMP grenades for the grenade launcher, capable of knocking out shielded Predator tech...? they'll just throw them at the Stormtroopers and their optics will get all messed up and and and ....

... my keyboard is getting sticky.

I'd say with better armor, the Colonial Marines could be quite lethal to the Stormies, and even in their current state, well, plasma weapons, laser sentry guns, SADARs, miniguns and auto-tracking smart guns just can't be wholly useless against the men in white ...

and besides, they're a lot cooler. they swear better, and are mean to each other, and have trimmed muscles. and that is, of course, what really matters in the end.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well the in game physics allow it to kill an alien queen with one shot.(There is no visible recoil other then if you aren't crouching you can't hit shit.)

Then unless we're talking a grgeatly augmented human (unlikely, what I recall from Aliens universe) the recoil can't exceed human tolerances. Might mean its about as powerful as an AMR as I said, but how does the Alien Queen prove its powerful? If you hit anything in the right spot, you can kill it in a single shot.

Pulse rifle rounds bounce off the Queen no matter where you shoot at it. She is invunerable to them....or it at least seemed that way when I was shooting her.

That's impractical from a real-life perspective - there is no way she could be invulnerable to any volume or duration of pulse rifle fire, but go down from a far smaller number of shots from a different weapon - when all such weapons are basically human-equipped personal weapons.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Then unless we're talking a grgeatly augmented human (unlikely, what I recall from Aliens universe) the recoil can't exceed human tolerances. Might mean its about as powerful as an AMR as I said, but how does the Alien Queen prove its powerful? If you hit anything in the right spot, you can kill it in a single shot.

Pulse rifle rounds bounce off the Queen no matter where you shoot at it. She is invunerable to them....or it at least seemed that way when I was shooting her.

That's impractical from a real-life perspective - there is no way she could be invulnerable to any volume or duration of pulse rifle fire, but go down from a far smaller number of shots from a different weapon - when all such weapons are basically human-equipped personal weapons.

Alright, she is invunerable to them in a practical time frame. You'd probably be able to injure her if you could fire at her with an endless number of rounds but the point is you can empty the standarded issued number of magazines into her and she won't be bleeding or injured. Sure, she may have some surface damage to her exoskelton but none that I could.

What weapon brought an alien queen down? If I remember I had to use a couple 30mm grenades to bring her down.

[Connor MacLeod]

Yet, a single railgun round can (at least according to what Laird said) bring her down, and the recoil of the railgun does not impart any significant (significant in the sense its not flinging the person through the air) momentum to the person firing it.

[The Prime Necromancer]

now, how does suspension of disbelief work in these matters? I mean, there's the example of the Kick-Ass Minigun(tm) from Predator, used by the Colonial Marines in the first AvP game, and we know from canon it can level a forest and blow it to bits, but it's also shown to be hand-held. we know it should have a huge recoil; we know it doesn't. shouldn't it just be accepted under SoD that it can kick a whole lot of ass, despite the physics disparity?

Yeah, I'd like to know how this is handled too. In the case of Predator, the only thing I can think of is that in the Alien/Predator-verse modern day humanity has discovered inertial dampening technology that they use on their heavy weapons, thus allowing Jesse Ventura to carry and fire a minigun without getting thrown on his ass. And if that's the case, surely far future humanity has access to these same technologies, meaning that pulse rifles and the rest of their weapons could have far greater "real" kickback (and thus deliver far more KE) than we think.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Yet, a single railgun round can (at least according to what Laird said) bring her down, and the recoil of the railgun does not impart any significant (significant in the sense its not flinging the person through the air) momentum to the person firing it.

Then there is some sort of technology being used that enables a person to use a rail gun. Because it is a rail gun afterall what could they possibily be firing from that thing that wouldn't knock a person on the ground?

[Howedar]

The word "railgun" is not magic. You could make a railgun with less kick than a .22LR if you wanted to.

[Connor MacLeod]

Yet, a single railgun round can (at least according to what Laird said) bring her down, and the recoil of the railgun does not impart any significant (significant in the sense its not flinging the person through the air) momentum to the person firing it.

Then there is some sort of technology being used that enables a person to use a rail gun. Because it is a rail gun afterall what could they possibily be firing from that thing that wouldn't knock a person on the ground?

Uh, right. The only real differencee between a rail gun and a chemical-propellant rifle is the method of acceleration for the projectile. The recoil limits are still going to exist. (They might have an explosive charge inside the railgun round, but I doubt its more powerful than the PIG or their other heavy weapons that have been already discussed, unless there is a reason to believe this sniper rifle is also Anti-Armor.)

[Darth Wong]

Yeah, I'd like to know how this is handled too. In the case of Predator, the only thing I can think of is that in the Alien/Predator-verse modern day humanity has discovered inertial dampening technology that they use on their heavy weapons, thus allowing Jesse Ventura to carry and fire a minigun without getting thrown on his ass. And if that's the case, surely far future humanity has access to these same technologies, meaning that pulse rifles and the rest of their weapons could have far greater "real" kickback (and thus deliver far more KE) than we think.

What makes you think you're not grossly overestimating the bullet velocity and mass? In fact, how did you estimate the bullet velocity and mass at all?

[wautd]

i saw aliens (directors cut) yesterday. One marine (Bill Paxton) was talking about them having nukes, particle cannons, missiles and even knives & pointy sticks

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Yeah, Hick's line. Thanks for telling us about something the rest of us have known about for nearly 20 years.

[KhyronTheBackstabber]

Yeah, Hick's line. Thanks for telling us about something the rest of us have known about for nearly 20 years.

Actually Spanky, that was Hudson who said that, or to Quote the movie

"Hudson, sir. He's Hicks."

[wautd]

Yeah, Hick's line. Thanks for telling us about something the rest of us have known about for nearly 20 years.

hey it was the first time i saw the directors cut. And it wasnt Hick who said it.

But if Ewoks can kill stormies with pointy sticks than ...

Naa... stormies win this if their armor are strong enough

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Yeah, Hick's line. Thanks for telling us about something the rest of us have known about for nearly 20 years.

Actually Spanky, that was Hudson who said that, or to Quote the movie

"Hudson, sir. He's Hicks."

Damn it!!

[The Prime Necromancer]

What makes you think you're not grossly overestimating the bullet velocity and mass? In fact, how did you estimate the bullet velocity and mass at all?

Now why didn't I think of that? Oh wait, because it would require me to do calcs.

Seriously though, I unfortunately do not have the movie on hand in order to observe the scene, nor do I have the expertise to figure out what the scene actually tells us about the KE of the projectile, and how it compares to a real minigun. In retrospect, assuming a possible decrease in bullet mass or velocity would be more reasonable than immediately assuming an unknown mechanism that decreases or eliminates recoil. But I'm just crazy that way.

So, the answers to your questions would be "Nothing" and "I didn't," respectively.