You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-01-19 03:52pm

Well, you've found a "solution" that would actually make you more despotic than the Confederacy, presuming it works...
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by Gandalf » 2019-01-20 05:07am

Darth Lucifer wrote:
2019-01-18 06:38pm
Possibly. I'll do whatever it takes to prevent 100+ years of racial violence and institutionalized racism. Including using infiltration units for political assassination. If we're able to manufacture T-1000/T-1001 units, I'll use those to replace key political figures to help prevent and or/eradicate "Southern heritage."
Yeah, this is bizarrely simplistic thinking. At that time, White Supremacy was hugely ingrained into the American psyche. It's why everyone tolerated slavery until the Confederacy forced the issue. It's why the Civil Rights Act was a century later. It's why the country violently expanded westwards until they hit the water. I'm not sure how wholesale violence is going to help this problem. It would probably unite the Union and Confederacy against you, with huge acts of reprisals against the black populations.

The United States in the 19th century is a monster, and that's why my approach results in its wholesale dismantling. I would lend out Terminators to native tribes. If they can set aside some parcel of land for a maintenance facility, they get free Terminator police and soldiers.
FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-01-18 06:23pm
Terminator infiltrators with the appropriate languages and customs to act as ambassadors for them to receive invitations, and if they refuse, we leave and we expand around them. Like I said, Federation style. We don't take their land, we just go around. And unlike the railroads build during the actual 19th century, we don't wage war on them for better building land or access to resources. They can be like modern day Amish, and live their lives the way they want, or they can integrate if they want to, and have an equal seat at the table.
The "Central Colorado" location in the OP is admittedly vague, but also smack dab in the middle of Ute lands, surrounded on every side. So I guess if they decide "no" as one, you may be in some trouble.
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-01-21 06:53pm

Yeah, if you want to respect Native American rights, then you're going to have to either negotiate successfully with the local tribes, or be prepared to up and relocate.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"Trump admirers like @TuckerCarlson describe themselves as "nationalist." But their nationalism attaches not to the multiracial American nation... but to a multinational white race with a capital in Moscow"-David Frum

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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by Solauren » 2019-01-21 07:43pm

This scenario, while appearing to be straight forward on the surface, actually, on deeper review, presents a far more interesting problem whtn the initial scenario itself.

So, I'll address both the initial scenario in general terms, then my considerations on the scenario.

Initial Scenario: Armed with Skynet technology, even using period weapons, you will be able to alter the course of the American Civil War, and indeed wider global history, according to your own whim.

It would be a simple matter to build up in secret, and then launch an offensive that would not only cripple, but totally obliterate Confederacy military capabilities.

Your infantry, in the form of any variety of Terminator, can not be harmed by any period weapon short of a cannon. (This is presuming that a Terminator is somehow struct by a cannon).

Skynet's tank classes, while overkill in this scenario, are actually more likely to take damage from cannon fire, simply because they are not as fast or maneuverable as your infantry. (I have no idea what their point defense capabilities are).

Aerial H-Ks give you battlefield supremacy in any just about engagement they are involved in. They operate 'the high ground' in any engagement, and it would be nearly impossible to aim a cannon at them to hit them. Period weapons will probably be ineffective. Depending on the range of the Aerial H-Ks weapons, period weapons might not even be able to reach them.

To Confederacy soldiers, Terminators would seem like the dead risen to life (unskinned skeletons), the damned or possessed (organic skinned), or possible even demons (rubber skinned, T-1000s, T-Xs, T-3000s). Aerial H-Ks would seem like the heavens themselves have declared war on the Confederacy. I can't even imagine how they'd preceive the 'starting' Tanks and some of Skynets other designs (like monsters probably).

So, whatever side you decide to back, is going to win. Most people will probably back the Union, so the CSA is screwed at whatever point you decide to intervene.

The most likely outcome of this scenario is: Overwhelming Union victory, minimizing causalities on both sides, with the Confederacy under military occupation by Terminators to enforce the peace, with the Union passing new laws and government reform, reinforced by Skynet military forces, under the implied threat that if the Union doesn't co-operate, they're next.

Okay, cool. I can live with that. I can accept that. Hell, in many ways, that's a lot better then the actual historical ending of the American Civil War.

However, that doesn't actually solve anything....

Without extensive use of Infiltrators that can completely pass as human, including possibly reproducing, you will not eliminiate many of the problems associated with the Confederacy.

You can not 'legal away' many of the problems that resulted in the Confederacy. Racism, Self-Entitlement, Greed, Pride, Arrogance.

Otherwise, there would have been no need for the civil rights movement in the United States in the 1960s, desegregation in the military would not have been a big issue, etc.

The proof of that is the many groups that rose after the Civil War, and still exist in some form today. Aggressive organizations like the Ku Klux Klan, apologetic and 'white-washing' organizations like 'Daughter of the Confederacy', etc. It's been 150 years, can there are still people that think the CSA could have won, should have won, and the world would be better off if they had!

And it's not a surprise these organizations rose up.

Why?

Well, think about it. The people that lost the war, continued on as if nothing had happened. Yes, the major leaders were arrested or killed, but that was it.

You had angry businessmen that had lost their source of cheap labor, and thousands of soldiers that blamed everyone else for their problems. You had families that tossed blame for the fact their relative went off to fight and died, or were seriously injured. All blaming 'the government', blacks, outsiders, and the like for them losing their war.

Sound familiar?

Its actually the same situation that existed in Germany after World War 1. And look were that lead. The difference is, it manifested differently in the United States. It's why, 150 years later, roughly 5 - 8 generations, depending on how long you measure a generation, you still have people going "I hate (whatever) because my great-grandpappy's pappy died fighting in the war." It's almost a religious obsession with someone of them.

Stamping that out, it's just not possible just by military occupation. If anything, it will make it worse, because there will be a constant, visible reminder to stoke resentment and anger.

Re-education will only work if it's allowed to work. Anyone that harbored racist beliefs will just pass them to their children behind closed door, and teach them how to hide in that behaviour in public. (Hell, alot of people do that anyway, acting 'good' when it's needed, but how they want otherwise. How else do you get parents on TV in denial when their child is caught on a security recording, or otherwise identified that's undeniable, screaming how 'it wasn't my baby, my baby wouldn't do that'.). Organizations like the KKK will still rise. They'll just stay in the shadows to avoid Termination.

That's why I wanted to know about T-950/T-3000 technology. To attack the root of the problem.

So, the way I see it, I have a few choices. These are general overviews only.

#1 - Conquer the CSA use non-lethal weapons (biological weapon attacks to knock out populations could be effective), and T-950/T-3000 (nervous system only) convert EVERYONE, to prevent them from passing on racist beliefs future generations, effective immediately.

#2 - Eradicate the CSA, taking the needed material for cloning for everyone. This is followed by gene editing to remove genetic diseases (and possibly to improve things like intelligence, etc), and then populating the former CSA with Terminators capable of sexual reproduction. They then go, build/rebuild cities, and reproduce normal humans.
Effectively, wipe out the CSA for colonization.

#3 - Take out the CSA military using non-lethal weapons, T-950/T-3000 (nervous system only) them, and send them home. Repeat for all government officials except the highest ranking ones (they get executed publically). Spouses that try to pass on racist beliefs will be reported, converted. If they are approached to join subversive organization, they go, identify targets, send that information back, and all targets are then T-950/T-3000 converted. Criminals will also be converted after a violent offense, or multiple smaller ones.

No matter which approach, the first generation born after this will grow up where lack of racism is the social norm, and adopt it as their social norm. That will transform society in those states within a generation.

Honestly, I can't see any other method to wipe out all the issues that allowed the CSA to happen in the first place. It's been over 150 years, and they still haven't been wiped out, so I'm willing to take drastic actions.

Once in control, I'll forbid expansion past 'current' (for that time) borders. If the Natives leave me alone, I'll leave them alone.
If need be, I'll construct an underground transit tunnel out from the mountain to the borders, and apologize to the natives for being in the mountain, but I was put there by a Sky spirit, and moving will take a long time.
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-01-21 07:58pm

Solauren wrote:
2019-01-21 07:43pm
This scenario, while appearing to be straight forward on the surface, actually, on deeper review, presents a far more interesting problem whtn the initial scenario itself.
One of the common characteristics of a good RAR is that who wins in a fight is one of the least interesting questions the scenario raises.
So, I'll address both the initial scenario in general terms, then my considerations on the scenario.

Initial Scenario: Armed with Skynet technology, even using period weapons, you will be able to alter the course of the American Civil War, and indeed wider global history, according to your own whim.

It would be a simple matter to build up in secret, and then launch an offensive that would not only cripple, but totally obliterate Confederacy military capabilities.

Your infantry, in the form of any variety of Terminator, can not be harmed by any period weapon short of a cannon. (This is presuming that a Terminator is somehow struct by a cannon).

Skynet's tank classes, while overkill in this scenario, are actually more likely to take damage from cannon fire, simply because they are not as fast or maneuverable as your infantry. (I have no idea what their point defense capabilities are).

Aerial H-Ks give you battlefield supremacy in any just about engagement they are involved in. They operate 'the high ground' in any engagement, and it would be nearly impossible to aim a cannon at them to hit them. Period weapons will probably be ineffective. Depending on the range of the Aerial H-Ks weapons, period weapons might not even be able to reach them.

To Confederacy soldiers, Terminators would seem like the dead risen to life (unskinned skeletons), the damned or possessed (organic skinned), or possible even demons (rubber skinned, T-1000s, T-Xs, T-3000s). Aerial H-Ks would seem like the heavens themselves have declared war on the Confederacy. I can't even imagine how they'd preceive the 'starting' Tanks and some of Skynets other designs (like monsters probably).

So, whatever side you decide to back, is going to win. Most people will probably back the Union, so the CSA is screwed at whatever point you decide to intervene.

The most likely outcome of this scenario is: Overwhelming Union victory, minimizing causalities on both sides, with the Confederacy under military occupation by Terminators to enforce the peace, with the Union passing new laws and government reform, reinforced by Skynet military forces, under the implied threat that if the Union doesn't co-operate, they're next.
Yes. A couple other points I'd like to focus on, though:

1. The shear shock and resulting moral issues you mentioned. This could cut both ways, but lots of people are going to see you initially as either divine wrath, or demonic intervention. And even when they recognize what they're facing as machines, they are going to be facing something totally beyond their ability to counter. After the first couple "demonstrations", I can honestly see entire Confederate armies melting away to desertion/routes.

2. Mobility, as I mentioned before. You don't ever have to fight an army in the field if you don't want to. You can simply bypass them, and pick their infrastructure (or leadership) apart piece by piece.
Okay, cool. I can live with that. I can accept that. Hell, in many ways, that's a lot better then the actual historical ending of the American Civil War.

However, that doesn't actually solve anything....

Without extensive use of Infiltrators that can completely pass as human, including possibly reproducing, you will not eliminiate many of the problems associated with the Confederacy.

You can not 'legal away' many of the problems that resulted in the Confederacy. Racism, Self-Entitlement, Greed, Pride, Arrogance.

Otherwise, there would have been no need for the civil rights movement in the United States in the 1960s, desegregation in the military would not have been a big issue, etc.

The proof of that is the many groups that rose after the Civil War, and still exist in some form today. Aggressive organizations like the Ku Klux Klan, apologetic and 'white-washing' organizations like 'Daughter of the Confederacy', etc. It's been 150 years, can there are still people that think the CSA could have won, should have won, and the world would be better off if they had!

And it's not a surprise these organizations rose up.

Why?

Well, think about it. The people that lost the war, continued on as if nothing had happened. Yes, the major leaders were arrested or killed, but that was it.
Not even that- oh, some of them were initially arrested, but lots of pardons were handed out in exchange for an amicable peace, and very few Confederates (and no very high-ranking ones) were executed post-war.

The Union simply didn't have the will for a decades-long campaign of restructuring and reeducating Southern society in the interests of black rights. People wanted it over- and it didn't help that the early years of Reconstruction were undermined by Andrew Johnson (who with Buchanan, Nixon, and Trump is among the US Presidents who should arguably have been charged with treason).
You had angry businessmen that had lost their source of cheap labor, and thousands of soldiers that blamed everyone else for their problems. You had families that tossed blame for the fact their relative went off to fight and died, or were seriously injured. All blaming 'the government', blacks, outsiders, and the like for them losing their war.

Sound familiar?

Its actually the same situation that existed in Germany after World War 1. And look were that lead. The difference is, it manifested differently in the United States. It's why, 150 years later, roughly 5 - 8 generations, depending on how long you measure a generation, you still have people going "I hate (whatever) because my great-grandpappy's pappy died fighting in the war." It's almost a religious obsession with someone of them.

Stamping that out, it's just not possible just by military occupation. If anything, it will make it worse, because there will be a constant, visible reminder to stoke resentment and anger.

Re-education will only work if it's allowed to work. Anyone that harbored racist beliefs will just pass them to their children behind closed door, and teach them how to hide in that behaviour in public. (Hell, alot of people do that anyway, acting 'good' when it's needed, but how they want otherwise. How else do you get parents on TV in denial when their child is caught on a security recording, or otherwise identified that's undeniable, screaming how 'it wasn't my baby, my baby wouldn't do that'.). Organizations like the KKK will still rise. They'll just stay in the shadows to avoid Termination.

That's why I wanted to know about T-950/T-3000 technology. To attack the root of the problem.
By committing mass mind-control of millions of people, which is a spectacular atrocity in its own right.
So, the way I see it, I have a few choices. These are general overviews only.

#1 - Conquer the CSA use non-lethal weapons (biological weapon attacks to knock out populations could be effective), and T-950/T-3000 (nervous system only) convert EVERYONE, to prevent them from passing on racist beliefs future generations, effective immediately.

#2 - Eradicate the CSA, taking the needed material for cloning for everyone. This is followed by gene editing to remove genetic diseases (and possibly to improve things like intelligence, etc), and then populating the former CSA with Terminators capable of sexual reproduction. They then go, build/rebuild cities, and reproduce normal humans.
Effectively, wipe out the CSA for colonization.

#3 - Take out the CSA military using non-lethal weapons, T-950/T-3000 (nervous system only) them, and send them home. Repeat for all government officials except the highest ranking ones (they get executed publically). Spouses that try to pass on racist beliefs will be reported, converted. If they are approached to join subversive organization, they go, identify targets, send that information back, and all targets are then T-950/T-3000 converted. Criminals will also be converted after a violent offense, or multiple smaller ones.

No matter which approach, the first generation born after this will grow up where lack of racism is the social norm, and adopt it as their social norm. That will transform society in those states within a generation.

Honestly, I can't see any other method to wipe out all the issues that allowed the CSA to happen in the first place. It's been over 150 years, and they still haven't been wiped out, so I'm willing to take drastic actions.
Unless you literally kill everyone who can remember they or their loved ones being a victim, reigns of terror generally aren't effective.

I think a good model to look at might be how the US handled the occupation and de-Nazification of Germany. Its not a historical period I know a great deal about, but the results are highly visible today- while there certainly are some Neo-Nazis in Germany, they are a relative minority, and the contrast between the peaceful, relatively progressive Germany of today and the Germany of 1945 is frankly stunning. Especially since this is probably the only time in history where America has really nailed a post-war occupation/reconstruction on a large scale.
Once in control, I'll forbid expansion past 'current' (for that time) borders. If the Natives leave me alone, I'll leave them alone.
If need be, I'll construct an underground transit tunnel out from the mountain to the borders, and apologize to the natives for being in the mountain, but I was put there by a Sky spirit, and moving will take a long time.
That sounds about right, yeah.
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"Trump admirers like @TuckerCarlson describe themselves as "nationalist." But their nationalism attaches not to the multiracial American nation... but to a multinational white race with a capital in Moscow"-David Frum

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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by Solauren » 2019-01-21 08:18pm

Unless you literally kill everyone who can remember they or their loved ones being a victim, reigns of terror generally aren't effective.
Hence, the T-950/T-3000 approach. Done properly, people get their loved ones back. (Or at least a very close approximation that can be explained away as war-trama/shell shock). There are no direct victims, no one weep-and-wail over, and no martyrs for the cause.
I think a good model to look at might be how the US handled the occupation and de-Nazification of Germany. Its not a historical period I know a great deal about, but the results are highly visible today- while there certainly are some Neo-Nazis in Germany, they are a relative minority, and the contrast between the peaceful, relatively progressive Germany of today and the Germany of 1945 is frankly stunning. Especially since this is probably the only time in history where America has really nailed a post-war occupation/reconstruction on a large scale.
The problems with comparing post-WW2 Germany to the CSA is...
Germany had actually gone through two social revolutions prior to the war.
First the collapse of Germany's monarch/post monarchy republic, followed by post war-clean up
Second, the rise of the Nazi Party.

Germany was reduced to rubble.

Germany admitted it was wrong and was defeated.

Germany was ripped apart, and half of it was violently oppressed, while the other half was forced to watch helplessly and go 'crap, I'm glad I'm on this side of the wall/glad I was occupied by forgiving people'.

I will agree, the post war, and post unification results are amazing, but I can't see how to apply to them the CSA. At least not with results as profound as WW2 Germany.
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-01-21 08:31pm

As much as I oppose the death penalty on principle, I think that executions of the CSA President, Cabinet, and high generals, as well as smashing the South's military and industrial infrastructure (such as it is), may be to the good long-term.

I do agree that its important to make it very clear to the South that they lost, utterly. The South needs to be humbled before it can be rebuilt. But you may be underestimating the effect of Terminator shock and awe. How much will will the South have to resist after their armies get a demonstration of flying gunships that can outmaneuver, outrun, outrange, and outgun any force they can possibly field, followed up by an army of remorseless metal skeletons that need never eat or sleep and can shrug off small arms fire like drops of rain? While there's no need to ever face a Southern army in the field, I might do so deliberately in order to give their soldiers (the future recruits for the KKK) an unmistakable view of what they are up against- while making sure their are plenty of survivors from the route to spread the tale.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"Trump admirers like @TuckerCarlson describe themselves as "nationalist." But their nationalism attaches not to the multiracial American nation... but to a multinational white race with a capital in Moscow"-David Frum

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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by Solauren » 2019-01-21 09:44pm

But, that still leaves the problem of 'underground movements' and the like. I'll admit, Terminators would go a long way in dealing with that (particularly if they can pass for a 'southern gentlemen', avoid detection by dogs and the like).
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-01-22 12:16am

Solauren wrote:
2019-01-21 09:44pm
But, that still leaves the problem of 'underground movements' and the like. I'll admit, Terminators would go a long way in dealing with that (particularly if they can pass for a 'southern gentlemen', avoid detection by dogs and the like).
Unless you make infiltrators a few inches or so shorter, because of the differences in nutrition and health of a Johnny Reb at 5'8", and Arnold being at 6'3", they'll know to just avoid the really tall, beefy guys.
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-01-22 12:20am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-01-22 12:16am
Solauren wrote:
2019-01-21 09:44pm
But, that still leaves the problem of 'underground movements' and the like. I'll admit, Terminators would go a long way in dealing with that (particularly if they can pass for a 'southern gentlemen', avoid detection by dogs and the like).
Unless you make infiltrators a few inches or so shorter, because of the differences in nutrition and health of a Johnny Reb at 5'8", and Arnold being at 6'3", they'll know to just avoid the really tall, beefy guys.
Fun fact: the Terminator was originally intended to be a smaller guy, before Cameron decided to cast Ahnold.

But yeah, I don't see why you couldn't make a starving kid Terminator if you wanted to. I mean, its not like they need body-builder muscles to be stronger than the average human...
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"Trump admirers like @TuckerCarlson describe themselves as "nationalist." But their nationalism attaches not to the multiracial American nation... but to a multinational white race with a capital in Moscow"-David Frum

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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-01-22 12:30am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-01-22 12:20am
FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-01-22 12:16am
Solauren wrote:
2019-01-21 09:44pm
But, that still leaves the problem of 'underground movements' and the like. I'll admit, Terminators would go a long way in dealing with that (particularly if they can pass for a 'southern gentlemen', avoid detection by dogs and the like).
Unless you make infiltrators a few inches or so shorter, because of the differences in nutrition and health of a Johnny Reb at 5'8", and Arnold being at 6'3", they'll know to just avoid the really tall, beefy guys.
Fun fact: the Terminator was originally intended to be a smaller guy, before Cameron decided to cast Ahnold.

But yeah, I don't see why you couldn't make a starving kid Terminator if you wanted to. I mean, its not like they need body-builder muscles to be stronger than the average human...
I assumed the size was necessary to house the machinery necessary for a Terminator to function. But even if that's true, the shortening of legs could be an option.
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by Solauren » 2019-01-22 05:24pm

Going over the characters in the Terminator wiki, height ranged from 1.5 to 2 meters for humanoid Terminators that were seen on screen.
The T-X appeared to be a size shifter via telescoping bones.

Also, in one of the comics, you had a 'Dog-terminator'. Hard to get it's exact size, as it overshot it's destination in time, and was crushed by a T-Rex.

The T-XA would also break into smaller units, forming groups of people, and even groups of animals as small as cats.

T-XA tech, depending on how small the units could go, would actually eliminate the need for Neural Conversion. Especially if they could take the place of articles of clothing or small creatures.

Hard to start a group like the KKK when the local insects, rodents, cats, dogs, or someones shoes is secretly a terminator monitoring everything to report on you.
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-01-24 01:15am

Indeed. Your capabilities here are so far beyond that of the opposition it isn't even funny. Now granted, a technologically weaker foe can last a while with insurgent tactics if the occupier isn't willing to outright commit genocide to stop them- but I'm struggling to think of a time in Earth's history where the gap was this big. What you do with that power is the main issue, not whether you can do it.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"Trump admirers like @TuckerCarlson describe themselves as "nationalist." But their nationalism attaches not to the multiracial American nation... but to a multinational white race with a capital in Moscow"-David Frum

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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2019-01-24 04:53pm

Hmm...it's not a remotely moral choice but one pragmatic way to prevent any "stab in the back" myths or "Lost Cause" ideas developing after the curbstomp would be to just obliterate the Confederate states entirely. Kill everyone present and re-settle from the Union.

The reasoning here is that no matter what else you do, short of mind-controlling the whole population you will have some people feeling resentment that they lost. Even if you obliterate the entire political leadership and the army command structure down to company-level officers you'll still have family, friends, and soldiers who were loyal to their home or their commanders not the cause. They will hate you. Doing what (I think) TRR suggested and crippling the South's limited industry to prevent any sort of military threat just pushes the hatred back a few generations, as they'll be thinking in 1880 or so "Why are we suffering for something that happened before we were born? This ain't right!"

So. You want to stop any sort of post-war resistance or fondness for the Southern cause? Kill 'em all. Like I said, not remotely moral and I am NOT advocating it as a solution, but it is an option.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by Solauren » 2019-01-24 05:30pm

The only way I can think of to offset the inevitable resentment would be monitoring levels that make Big Brother go 'shit, he's paranoid'.

Which is possible when you can mass produce terminators that can turn into belts, shoes, underpants, cats, dogs, mice, mosquitos.
(then scoop them up and mind-control them)

But it would take several generations.
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2019-01-24 05:44pm

That's not far off being as immoral as the "kill em all" option though. Winning the war is piss-easy in this scenario, stopping the former Confederacy turning into Afghanistan and Iraq in the 1860's is a hell of a lot harder.

But even if you can stave off resentment for the Confederacy being defeated by super-Big-Brother (Mega-Brother?) levels of surveillance, you're just gonna breed resentment agaisnt the surveillance.

EDIT: It builds on the point I made about the defeated population in the 1880's or 1890's saying "hey, this wasn't our fault, we weren't born then, why are you still squashing us underfoot?" This is especially true if the surveillance option takes several generations as you said. I honestly do not think there is a way that will allow you to defeat the CSA without causing some sort of resistance movement
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by Solauren » 2019-01-24 05:53pm

Well, I'm hoping the 'what the fuck is this, magic' level of I'd do, followed by covert scoops only, would prevent them even knowing about the surveillance method (really, would you suspect the a mosquito of being a government observation method with a 1800s education).

When nothing in the way of resistance materializes, I'm hoping that will further crush them with "no one else seems to care", or "anyone starts anything, and they lose interest".
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2019-01-24 06:05pm

Hmmm...that is possible I suppose. But how do you deal with the discontent even if you know every detail? I can't imagine the system would work if it stayed at just surveillance.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-01-27 02:29am

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2019-01-24 04:53pm
Hmm...it's not a remotely moral choice but one pragmatic way to prevent any "stab in the back" myths or "Lost Cause" ideas developing after the curbstomp would be to just obliterate the Confederate states entirely. Kill everyone present and re-settle from the Union.

The reasoning here is that no matter what else you do, short of mind-controlling the whole population you will have some people feeling resentment that they lost. Even if you obliterate the entire political leadership and the army command structure down to company-level officers you'll still have family, friends, and soldiers who were loyal to their home or their commanders not the cause. They will hate you. Doing what (I think) TRR suggested and crippling the South's limited industry to prevent any sort of military threat just pushes the hatred back a few generations, as they'll be thinking in 1880 or so "Why are we suffering for something that happened before we were born? This ain't right!"

So. You want to stop any sort of post-war resistance or fondness for the Southern cause? Kill 'em all. Like I said, not remotely moral and I am NOT advocating it as a solution, but it is an option.
Crippling their industry is probably a pragmatic course of action in wartime, but there's no reason that has to persist for "a few generations". We helped rebuild (Western) Germany's industry and infrastructure after WWII, and it became one of the most prosperous nations.

Again, I would use post-WW2 Germany as the best model (at least in broad strokes) for defeating, occupying, reeducating, and rebuilding a racist authoritarian nation.
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by Solauren » 2019-01-27 10:57am

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2019-01-24 06:05pm
Hmmm...that is possible I suppose. But how do you deal with the discontent even if you know every detail? I can't imagine the system would work if it stayed at just surveillance.
That's were the Neural Conversion comes in. It would be like social-scale medicine.
I'm using the symptoms to find and eradicate the disease.
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2019-01-27 11:43am

Darth Lucifer wrote:
2019-01-17 11:48pm
I had a question about explosives of the time period; Kyle Reese blew a Terminator in half with a homemade pipe bomb, perhaps dynamite could be used as a weapon? Maybe lure the terminators into a trap and BLAMMO! Or something.
Nobel was still experimenting with dynamite a bit before and during the Civil War era, and it wasn't patented until 1867. Certainly nitroglycerin could be used against a Terminator, however.
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2019-01-27 11:51am

Solauren: So it doesn't just stop at surveillance. Thought so.

Having pondered it a bit more, the "kill them all" solution is probably an effective one (again I am NOT saying it is the right choice) as unlike most other "kill em all" options in RAR's, there is absolutely nothing stopping you. Even if everyone else on the planet looks at what you've done, recoils in horror and forms a global coalition against me, they can't win. This scenario has made me the Martians from The War of the Worlds, without the disease issue. Sure, some hypothetical global coalition might win a few fights but they can't win the war. They can't get close enough to my factory to cause damage, not with the amount of forces it can produce as just a guard force. And with flying HK's being built as well, combined with radio communications instead of horseback messenger, semaphore or telegraph, I can learn and react much faster than the opponent can.

This scenario basically makes you as close to a physical God as possible for the time period and gives you a prompt about the US Civil War. Why stop there? Obliterate the Confederacy entirely, then just let my Terminators go and establish a global dominance to prevent slavery from ever appearing again. Take over from the RN's West Africa Squadron but apply it worldwide. No more slavery. Ever. And if governments object, destroy them.

Yes, it's not a "moral" option. But I know myself well enough to know that with this kind of power I would definitely fit into the category of "Well-Intentioned Extremist." And frankly I'm fine with that.

On a side note, given the apparent Neural Conversion technology Solauren mentioned, I wonder if it is possible to upload my consciousness into a T-800 or T-1000 body. Would be a lot tougher and capable than my squishy and defective human body that's for sure.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2019-01-27 12:05pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:An 1860s army has zero counters to hovercraft gunships. Zero.
High-angled mortars firing grapeshot might be an effective counter, depending on how low the gunships have to go to attack ground targets.
and very few Confederates (and no very high-ranking ones) were executed post-war.
As I recall, only two Confederates were executed, a Swiss national and a poor, politically-unconnected hillbilly.
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
—29th Scroll, 6th Verse of Ape Law
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by Solauren » 2019-01-27 12:41pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2019-01-27 11:51am
On a side note, given the apparent Neural Conversion technology Solauren mentioned, I wonder if it is possible to upload my consciousness into a T-800 or T-1000 body. Would be a lot tougher and capable than my squishy and defective human body that's for sure.
Given Skynet turned John Connor into a T-3000 with that technology (I'm just stopped with the nervous system), and then reprogrammed him, I'm going to go with a qualified 'yes'. (T-3000 seems better then a T-1000 in that regard). However, you'd have to be so fucking careful with the proceedure to prevent you accidentally reprogramming yourself....
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2019-01-27 01:00pm

Well since these Terminators obey my orders without question then a direct "You will transfer my consciousness to this new body without making any alterations whatsoever" should suffice.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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