Dinosaur Island (RAR).

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Dinosaur Island (RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-19 07:30pm

One day, an airplane flying over the Bermuda Triangle spots a previously unknown island in international waters. Eventually satellite imagery confirms the new island's existence, and a group of scientists arrive to explore.

No one knows how the island came into existence, or why no one spotted it before, though some speculate that it was the outcome of sudden volcanic or seismic activity. The conspiracy theorists, of course, have their own answers. What is known is that the island is about thirty miles long and ten miles wide at its widest point, surrounded by smaller islands, with a line of hills running up the center, the highest being about 1,500 feet above sea level.

The first team on the island finds that it contains a rather strange mixture of plant life- specifically, no grasses, but types of plants and animals dating back approximately 70 million years. They also spot strange-looking birds around the shores of the island, and large, three-toed tracks on the beach that appear to belong to a man-sized bird. Following these tracks, they come upon something remarkable: the decomposing, half-eaten corpse of a medium-sized herbivorous dinosaur.

Further study of the island will reveal that it contains a population of small to medium-sized late Cretaceous dinosaur types, as well as toothed birds, ancient crocodiles, pterosaurs, and other ancient creatures. The surrounding waters also contain a number of marine reptiles (mosasaurs) and ammonites.

In short, it appears as though a piece of the Cretaceous world has been transported into the present.

Scenario One: You are the team leader investigating the island. How do you proceed?

Scenario Two: What do you think the international response would/should be?
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Re: Dinosaur Island (RAR).

Post by Titan Uranus » 2018-03-19 09:07pm

Those aren't actually two different scenarios, they're just two different questions about the same scenario.
1. Fall back to the ship and request orders. This kind of question has been above the pay grade of an individual expedition leader since the Edwardian era at the least.
2. Unless the island has some really valuable resources, or dinos prove to be really useful as domestic animals for some reason, a lot of science gets done, but not much else.

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Re: Dinosaur Island (RAR).

Post by Solauren » 2018-03-19 09:51pm

The island represents a MASSIVE biological threat to the planet. There are extremely dangerous Alpha Predators on it. As in 'nothing alive on earth can stop some of them without modern weapons'.

Fall back, and recommend a tactical nuclear strike to contain the bio-threat.
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Re: Dinosaur Island (RAR).

Post by Sea Skimmer » 2018-03-19 10:26pm

The island is a massive unknown biohazard, and the first steps would need to be identifying any new marine or avian life that might spread diseases or invasive species to other parts of the ecosystem. Hopefully none of the flying things want to migrate! A naval blockade would need to be established ASAP to prevent random morons from looting the place. The level of sea and air traffic in that region is very high.

Nobody should be exploring the island until an engineering team can construct a secure decontamination facility, and then a lab somewhere on the island's shoreline. Then stuff can be researched under some level of biosafety. Anyone who touches the island without three layers of gloves gets to go in a quarantine for at least three months.

On the plus side we might find new antibiotics, and most of the diseases that are present are probably going to be easy prey for present day immune systems, but we absolutely cannot rule out a doomsday plague series (which could affect vital food crops and animals, not just people) without years of intensive research. Some argument could be made for destroying the island ecosystem out of hand by dropping defoliating chemicals and nerve gas on it because the worst case risk is rather simply, the destruction of modern civilization. Probably though it'd be okay, but it'd be insane to have people just exploring around the place with no clue whatever as to what it really contains. And the huge problem is since it's in the path of Atlantic hurricanes all kinds of lifeforms and debris might soon be washing up against the Bahamas and US mainland.
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Re: Dinosaur Island (RAR).

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-03-20 12:19am

Contact Professors Challenger and Summerlee so that they can help with the expedition.

Other than wanting to contact fictional characters, get samples, pictures, tag live ones for observation, and obtain dead carcasses(ones already dead, not poached) of everything, document them, and keep the specimens at a safe on-island facility that's out of the way of the local creatures, maybe at one of the smaller islands, with a separate command post on board ship, which will only receive specimens after quarantine.

Make sure that a documentary gets made, I have a feeling kids are going to love seeing this stuff in the classroom.

In regards to politics, watch the new land grab happen. With no established treaty like with Antarctica, a lot of powers will want the island, if for no other reason than to have new potential locations for sea and air bases.
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Re: Dinosaur Island (RAR).

Post by CetaMan » 2018-03-20 03:29am

The stuff in the ocean is going to somewhat be an issue. Thing is depending on the numbers everything might get out-competed depending on the local sea life where the island is. Having a local crustacean-hunter devour all the ammonite spawn when they reproduce since they have obsolete-ish defense probably doesn't mean the species does well. Even the large predators may depending on size get out competed. Mosasaurs will be scary, depending on the species that end up transported/appearing. (4 meters vs 15 meters...). There might just not be enough food in the area for the exceptionally large ones (going after whales is the likely the only energy-efficient hunt option for a 60-foot mosasaur once they deplete the probably small supply of appropriate era-food, otherwise it spends a long time chasing medium-sized prey.

Expect some massive ecological shifts within months of the island appearing, as modern fungal spores, seeds for grasses and some other modern establishment-level stuff get there via wind, sea or human stupidity. Some stuff may die as the ferns and small plants get overrun by grass that may not be palatable to everything, or more palatable to some things.

Diseases will go both ways, consider that everything there will have less immunity to modern diseases, though immune systems will adapt there may be a bottleneck effect once somebody gets something sick. Insects spreading can also cause significant havoc on both ends.

Overall, we probably get some more antiobiotics from the plant and insect life. Learn a bit more about the biology of creatures in the time period, watch it get changed by interaction with the modern world and discover how hopefully delicious several species are.


Attempt a quarantine and kiss my career goodbye but become a celebrity if the expedition leader. International response is going to be convoluted and messy, but should focus on ensuring nothing from the island too serious gets off (watch the sea-life...) and try to sample a bit of everything before modern plants, insects and microorganism upset the balance we find it in. Hopefully get some good pharmaceuticals and food products as well, and try to keep what we can alive. Something gave us an opportunity to learn. We use it.

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Re: Dinosaur Island (RAR).

Post by Simon_Jester » 2018-03-20 06:37am

Solauren wrote:
2018-03-19 09:51pm
The island represents a MASSIVE biological threat to the planet. There are extremely dangerous Alpha Predators on it. As in 'nothing alive on earth can stop some of them without modern weapons'.

Fall back, and recommend a tactical nuclear strike to contain the bio-threat.
Eh, the predators aren't that big a deal. Marine dinosaur predators are on par with, say, sharks (which existed and thrived throughout the Mesozoic, indicating that the competition they faced from dinosaurs wasn't that big a deal). We can live with sharks and don't consider them a "nuke the site from orbit" biohazard, so we can deal with mosasaurs. The big nasty Alpha Predators are confined on an island and aren't bothering anyone; worst case they'd be a problem for someone with a large caliber rifle and a helicopter to solve.

The microorganism hazard is more credible, by contrast.
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Re: Dinosaur Island (RAR).

Post by Majin Gojira » 2018-03-20 10:31am

Okay, we need more details on this really. Because Cretaceous Fauna was not uniform 70 million yeas ago. Is it the Arid Scrub of Mongolia? Is it the swamps of Montana? Is it the lakebeds of Argentina? The Upland environment of Texas?

Or is it the classic stock dinosaurs of the Cretaceous (whcih is the swamps of Montana with a few add-ons).

Worse, this Island is going to be at least as big as Madagascar in order to support any large fauna worth worrying about.

Also, what do you really mean by "Medium sized' dinosaurs? Given non-avian dinosaurs ranged from a few pounds to a hundred tons or so, "Medium" could mean something like 1-10 metric tons.

I can't really go over the effects of invasive species until I know a basic metric for faunal arrangement, but I can say this:

Rats and Mice will probably outcompete any similar-niched mammals they encounter, but not have much of an effect otherwise.
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Re: Dinosaur Island (RAR).

Post by Titan Uranus » 2018-03-20 12:40pm

Solauren wrote:
2018-03-19 09:51pm
The island represents a MASSIVE biological threat to the planet. There are extremely dangerous Alpha Predators on it. As in 'nothing alive on earth can stop some of them without modern weapons'.

Fall back, and recommend a tactical nuclear strike to contain the bio-threat.
What? The predators are no threat at all. They haven’t been since the Victorian era even for a small hunting party, and can be killed by normal big-game rifles without issue.


Biological contamination will be an issue, though if this island doesn’t have mammals on it the risk to humans drops to almost nothing. The risk to Avian dinosaurs is going to be much greater. And honestly, I think that the vast majority of the contamination worries would be about us/modern life contaminating the island rather than the other way around.
Sea Skimmer wrote:
2018-03-19 10:26pm
*snip*
I think the main problem will be the almost inevitable laxity in quarantine procedures.


Also, if this island is in the Bermuda Triangle, and big enough to support a breeding population of charismatic magafauna, won’t it really screw with weather patterns?

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Re: Dinosaur Island (RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-20 01:14pm

Regarding size issues...

I confess I don't really know how much space is required to feed such a population (and the answer to that would depend enormously on where one stands on the question of dinosaurs being warm-blooded). I stated that the island was about thirty by ten miles. Since this could not support a large population of mega fauna, I also made the painful choice of eliminating the larger dinosaurs in the OP. More on this shortly. Don't worry, there are still a couple of fairly big names and one lesser-known but damn formidable predator that made the cut.
Majin Gojira wrote:
2018-03-20 10:31am
Okay, we need more details on this really. Because Cretaceous Fauna was not uniform 70 million yeas ago. Is it the Arid Scrub of Mongolia? Is it the swamps of Montana? Is it the lakebeds of Argentina? The Upland environment of Texas?

Or is it the classic stock dinosaurs of the Cretaceous (whcih is the swamps of Montana with a few add-ons).
While I have a soft spot for the Mongolian fauna of the period, let's say Montana/Albert, since its probably the best known and researched.
Worse, this Island is going to be at least as big as Madagascar in order to support any large fauna worth worrying about.
Especially if the dinosaurs were, in fact, warm-blooded.

This is why I specified that it was populated by the smaller types.
Also, what do you really mean by "Medium sized' dinosaurs? Given non-avian dinosaurs ranged from a few pounds to a hundred tons or so, "Medium" could mean something like 1-10 metric tons.

I can't really go over the effects of invasive species until I know a basic metric for faunal arrangement, but I can say this:

Rats and Mice will probably outcompete any similar-niched mammals they encounter, but not have much of an effect otherwise.
I looked up a list of known types from the Hell Creek formation on Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_Cree ... #Dinosaurs

I then excluded the multi-ton types, and ones for which insufficient information was available, giving me the following list for dinosaurs:

Pachycephalosaurs:

-Dracorex Hogwartsia (and yes, there is apparently a dinosaur who's name means "Dragon King of Hogwarts"). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dracorex

-Pachycephalosaurus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachycephalosaurus

-Sphaerotholus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphaerotholus

-Stygimoloch. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stygimoloch

Ceratopsians:

Leptoceratops. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leptoceratops

Ornithopods:

Thescelosaurus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thescelosaurus

Theropods:

Struthiomimus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struthiomimus

Anzu. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzu_wyliei

Leptorhynchos. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leptorhynchos_(dinosaur)

Acheroraptor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acheroraptor

Avisaurus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avisaurus

Brodavis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brodavis

Dakotaraptor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakotaraptor

Potamornis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potamornis

We've also got some indeterminate pterosaurs (possibly Quetzalcoatlus). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatlus

No mega-predators due to limited food (so no T. Rex, sorry :(). Top predator then would appear to be Dakotaraptor, which is the second largest known dromaeosaur, comparable to Utahraptor. We also have champosaurs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champosaurus) and crocodilians in the water, plus mosasaurs off-shore.

Assume that the numbers of each, at least initially, are enough to maintain a viable breeding population (though insufficient food supplies could alter that without conservation efforts).
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Re: Dinosaur Island (RAR).

Post by Majin Gojira » 2018-03-20 02:54pm

Alright, so, Hell Creek fauna. I would have gone with the more ecologically healthy Dinosaur Park Formation (7 Ankylosaur genera, 7 Ceratopsians, 4 Hadrosaurs, 4 Pachycephalosaurs, 3 Ornithomimids, 3 Oviraptors, 1 Herperornithine bird, 3 dromaeosaurs, 1 microraptorine, 2 Troodontid, 2 Tyrannosaurs, multiple sharks and rays, sturgeons, gars, arapaima, and a dozen other freshwater fish, 6 Multituberculate, 10 small basal marsupials, 3 other primitive mammals, 3 Champsosaurs, 3 true crocodiians, 1 11-foot monitor lizard, 5 other lizard speceis - including gila monsters, 1 Elsasmosaur, 1 Polycotlid, Navajodactylus, 1 large and 1 small Azhdarchid pterosaur, as well as one other pterosaur, and 12 turtles). Hell Creek was not a healthy ecosystem, sad to say.

It'd be better to just link to the wiki for Saurian and maybe throw in Nanotyrannus even if it is a somewhat dubious genus. But it, like Dracorex, may be juvenile versions of more famous, larger dinosaurs (IE: Pachycephalosaurus and T. rex respectively).

There's also this wonderful image to work from.

That also includes quite a few less common animals, like Komodo Dragon-sized Gila Monsters.

Anyway, don't be too swift to throw out multi-ton animals. There's a reason why I brought up Madagascar. Though we only have a handful of genera from that island, we do have a nice cross-section of fauna, including at least one multi-ton herbivore (Rapetosaurus), and a half-ton therapod (7 meters/22ft long).

In order to keep the ecosystem, unstable as it is, I'd employ Island Dwarfism/Insular growth to benefit the situation. A Tyrannosaur as heavy as a black rhinoceros would be about 30ft long, about a quarter of the length of the "Mainland" species, and about as big as Yutyrannus. Meaning the largest herbivores (Edmontosaurus, Triceratops, Ankylosaurus, Denversaurus) wouldb be roughly similarly foreshortened. They would weigh as much as a large buffalo or Rhino, but be twice as large physically, with Edmontosaurus closing in on a small elephant in overall size. And though long, Yutyrannus was only about 7-8ft tall.

Then again, it's also able to basically put its entire body weight into its bite force.

Dakotaraptor and an Ornithomimid may see a similar shrinking, but we know little about the latter.

Now, this ecosystem is already pretty flimsy, so the disruption of modern diseases, bacteria, and fungi could be quite disruptive to the plant and animal life. Insects and small animals might also pose a problem. As stated, Rodents already out-competed multis in the past, and they will definitely do so again if they make it here.

But what other animals are introduced depends largely on who stakes a claim there. The ancient biodiversity would be a beacon to the United States, but it is closer to the Bahamas and Bermuda.

Given the size of the proposed island, it would actually cross all three nations' territorial waters, so I'm somewhat murky on who would want to stake a claim there.

The people who try and 'clam jump,' as it were, are going to hit some problems from the fauna (let alone diseases). Because of how scant the fossil record is, we don't know much about Hell Creek (or Dinosaur provincial park's) invertebrate fauna. Dinosaur-sized ticks and fleas could carry god-knows-what with them. Spiders, ants, bees, and wasps would also pack who knows what toxins in their stings.

Snakes were not so developed there, but we do have crocodiles the size of modern gators and more than one species in either case and again -- A GILA MONSTER AS BIG AS A KOMODO DRAGON DOING THE SAME BASIC THING.

As for larger fauna . . . well, any claim jumpers or early explorers on te island are going to need to be well armed to survive. An elephant, for instance, takes 86 rounds from police issue weaponry to be taken down in one instance. And dinosaurs are, pound for pound, more energetic and stronger than their mammal equivalent.

So taking one down will not be easy unless you go overkill (which America most certainly can).

Still the opportunity for people to make a real "Jurassic Park" is not something people will turn down, so efforts will be likely made to capture them alive.

How soon really does depend on who 'claims' the land first, and what mineral resources are there.
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Re: Dinosaur Island (RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-20 03:12pm

Majin Gojira wrote:
2018-03-20 02:54pm
Alright, so, Hell Creek fauna. I would have gone with the more ecologically healthy Dinosaur Park Formation (7 Ankylosaur genera, 7 Ceratopsians, 4 Hadrosaurs, 4 Pachycephalosaurs, 3 Ornithomimids, 3 Oviraptors, 1 Herperornithine bird, 3 dromaeosaurs, 1 microraptorine, 2 Troodontid, 2 Tyrannosaurs, multiple sharks and rays, sturgeons, gars, arapaima, and a dozen other freshwater fish, 6 Multituberculate, 10 small basal marsupials, 3 other primitive mammals, 3 Champsosaurs, 3 true crocodiians, 1 11-foot monitor lizard, 5 other lizard speceis - including gila monsters, 1 Elsasmosaur, 1 Polycotlid, Navajodactylus, 1 large and 1 small Azhdarchid pterosaur, as well as one other pterosaur, and 12 turtles). Hell Creek was not a healthy ecosystem, sad to say.
Fair point about it being an unhealthy ecosystem. It is, however, a fairly well-known and well-studied one.
It'd be better to just link to the wiki for Saurian and maybe throw in Nanotyrannus even if it is a somewhat dubious genus. But it, like Dracorex, may be juvenile versions of more famous, larger dinosaurs (IE: Pachycephalosaurus and T. rex respectively).
Yeah, I thought about Nanotyranus. We can add it to the local wildlife, for the sake of Tyrannosaur representation. :D
There's also this wonderful image to work from.

That also includes quite a few less common animals, like Komodo Dragon-sized Gila Monsters.

Anyway, don't be too swift to throw out multi-ton animals. There's a reason why I brought up Madagascar. Though we only have a handful of genera from that island, we do have a nice cross-section of fauna, including at least one multi-ton herbivore (Rapetosaurus), and a half-ton therapod (7 meters/22ft long).
I didn't know about the Madagascar dinosaurs. Something to Google. :D
In order to keep the ecosystem, unstable as it is, I'd employ Island Dwarfism/Insular growth to benefit the situation. A Tyrannosaur as heavy as a black rhinoceros would be about 30ft long, about a quarter of the length of the "Mainland" species, and about as big as Yutyrannus. Meaning the largest herbivores (Edmontosaurus, Triceratops, Ankylosaurus, Denversaurus) wouldb be roughly similarly foreshortened. They would weigh as much as a large buffalo or Rhino, but be twice as large physically, with Edmontosaurus closing in on a small elephant in overall size. And though long, Yutyrannus was only about 7-8ft tall.

Then again, it's also able to basically put its entire body weight into its bite force.

Dakotaraptor and an Ornithomimid may see a similar shrinking, but we know little about the latter.
Dwarfism works as a way to bring in the larger species in relatively limited habitat, I suppose.
Now, this ecosystem is already pretty flimsy, so the disruption of modern diseases, bacteria, and fungi could be quite disruptive to the plant and animal life. Insects and small animals might also pose a problem. As stated, Rodents already out-competed multis in the past, and they will definitely do so again if they make it here.
Yup.
But what other animals are introduced depends largely on who stakes a claim there. The ancient biodiversity would be a beacon to the United States, but it is closer to the Bahamas and Bermuda.

Given the size of the proposed island, it would actually cross all three nations' territorial waters, so I'm somewhat murky on who would want to stake a claim there.
Well, I figure that given the power disparity here, if the US really wants it, the US will get it. And I'm not just talking about war- they could buy it if they really wanted to.

The question is, just how badly will they want it?
The people who try and 'clam jump,' as it were, are going to hit some problems from the fauna (let alone diseases). Because of how scant the fossil record is, we don't know much about Hell Creek (or Dinosaur provincial park's) invertebrate fauna. Dinosaur-sized ticks and fleas could carry god-knows-what with them. Spiders, ants, bees, and wasps would also pack who knows what toxins in their stings.
So in other words, its not the megafauna we need to worry about getting out.

Its pandemics.
Snakes were not so developed there, but we do have crocodiles the size of modern gators and more than one species in either case and again -- A GILA MONSTER AS BIG AS A KOMODO DRAGON DOING THE SAME BASIC THING.

As for larger fauna . . . well, any claim jumpers or early explorers on te island are going to need to be well armed to survive. An elephant, for instance, takes 86 rounds from police issue weaponry to be taken down in one instance. And dinosaurs are, pound for pound, more energetic and stronger than their mammal equivalent.

So taking one down will not be easy unless you go overkill (which America most certainly can).
Big theropods are dangerous, but at the end of the day, they're still just animals. They might pick off a few unwary humans, but its not something you need to call in the military for, I'd think. Especially if they're stuck on the island.

Although... how good a swimmer are some of these dinosaurs? Could they migrate to nearby islands?
Still the opportunity for people to make a real "Jurassic Park" is not something people will turn down, so efforts will be likely made to capture them alive.

How soon really does depend on who 'claims' the land first, and what mineral resources are there.
I would think there'd be a lot of pressure from scientists and environmentalists to try to preserve the creatures, but yeah, the ecotourism industry would also want to get its claws into the place as soon as possible.
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Re: Dinosaur Island (RAR).

Post by Majin Gojira » 2018-03-20 03:56pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-20 03:12pm
I didn't know about the Madagascar dinosaurs. Something to Google. :D
You may also want to google Hateg island, another case of odd island evolution in the Mesozoic. As well as Langberg Quarry and Yutyrannus, both contian more island dwarfs.
The question is, just how badly will they want it?
When I try to think about that, I just keep being reminded of Lex Luthor's scheme in Superman: The Movie.
So in other words, its not the megafauna we need to worry about getting out.

Its pandemics.
Pretty much, and it's a knife that cuts both ways.
Big theropods are dangerous, but at the end of the day, they're still just animals. They might pick off a few unwary humans, but its not something you need to call in the military for, I'd think. Especially if they're stuck on the island.
In reality, it's the herbivores you gotta look out for. Lions and Hyenas do kill people, but not as many as Elephants, Water Buffalo, and no one tops the Hippo.

So in this case, Edmontosaurus and Triceratops will rack up the body count.
Although... how good a swimmer are some of these dinosaurs? Could they migrate to nearby islands?
It depends on the species, but . . . they can do it. It is theorized, for instance, that Alamosaurus may have migrated north from South America over several hundred miles between the two continents at the time. So, yeah, they could make it, but they'd only really find suitable habitat in a few places.

And it is entirely possible that the small-but-not-too-small dinosaurs could outcompete mainland equivalents.
I would think there'd be a lot of pressure from scientists and environmentalists to try to preserve the creatures, but yeah, the ecotourism industry would also want to get its claws into the place as soon as possible.
Given current politics, who is going to listen to ecologists rather than those who want to exploit it for monetary gain regardless of the consequences?
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Re: Dinosaur Island (RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-20 04:09pm

Majin Gojira wrote:
2018-03-20 03:56pm
You may also want to google Hateg island, another case of odd island evolution in the Mesozoic. As well as Langberg Quarry and Yutyrannus, both contian more island dwarfs.
Cool.
When I try to think about that, I just keep being reminded of Lex Luthor's scheme in Superman: The Movie.
Heh.
Pretty much, and it's a knife that cuts both ways.
In reality, it's the herbivores you gotta look out for. Lions and Hyenas do kill people, but not as many as Elephants, Water Buffalo, and no one tops the Hippo.
So in this case, Edmontosaurus and Triceratops will rack up the body count.
Depends on the individual species too, of course, and how aggressive it is. That's a hard question to answer with dinosaurs, obviously.

Of course, the herbivores are also more common, for obvious reasons (Triceratops is the single most common Hell Creek type, for example).
It depends on the species, but . . . they can do it. It is theorized, for instance, that Alamosaurus may have migrated north from South America over several hundred miles between the two continents at the time. So, yeah, they could make it, but they'd only really find suitable habitat in a few places.
That's odd, considering that last I heard, Alamosaurs (and sauropods in general) were thought to favor dry environments.
And it is entirely possible that the small-but-not-too-small dinosaurs could outcompete mainland equivalents.
I wonder how they'd fair vs. the wildlife in Florida, for example. And speaking of Florida...
Given current politics, who is going to listen to ecologists rather than those who want to exploit it for monetary gain regardless of the consequences?
Oh God, this ends with the opening of Jurassic Trump Park, doesn't it?

It has the biggest dinosaurs, the best dinosaurs, and we'll build a wall to keep the dinosaurs on the island.

Its mascot is a giant gold Tyrannosaurus, naturally.

On the plus side, there's an outside chance that it ends with Trump being eaten by raptors. :D
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Re: Dinosaur Island (RAR).

Post by Solauren » 2018-03-20 06:10pm

How do we know this is not a 'nesting island', and the 'medium sized dinosaurs' (roughly 3 - 5 meters for non Sauropods, 10 meters for Sauropods, btw), are not young ones getting ready to migrate to the main land?
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Re: Dinosaur Island (RAR).

Post by Majin Gojira » 2018-03-20 06:12pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-20 04:09pm
Depends on the individual species too, of course, and how aggressive it is. That's a hard question to answer with dinosaurs, obviously.

Of course, the herbivores are also more common, for obvious reasons (Triceratops is the single most common Hell Creek type, for example).
Well, we know that they fought with their horns against each other and little can stop them from using them against predators.

Aside from a weak nose that may have housed ballooning sacks.

Yes, really, that's a possibility.
That's odd, considering that last I heard, Alamosaurs (and sauropods in general) were thought to favor dry environments.
They do. They avoid marshy environs, but not all watery edges are muddy or marshy.
I wonder how they'd fair vs. the wildlife in Florida, for example. And speaking of Florida...
Exceptionally well. Louisiana would be better, but Florida would fit just as well.
Oh God, this ends with the opening of Jurassic Trump Park, doesn't it?

It has the biggest dinosaurs, the best dinosaurs, and we'll build a wall to keep the dinosaurs on the island.

Its mascot is a giant gold Tyrannosaurus, naturally.

On the plus side, there's an outside chance that it ends with Trump being eaten by raptors. :D
Truly the best timeline.
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Re: Dinosaur Island (RAR).

Post by Solauren » 2018-03-20 06:16pm

Titan Uranus wrote:
2018-03-20 12:40pm
Solauren wrote:
2018-03-19 09:51pm
The island represents a MASSIVE biological threat to the planet. There are extremely dangerous Alpha Predators on it. As in 'nothing alive on earth can stop some of them without modern weapons'.

Fall back, and recommend a tactical nuclear strike to contain the bio-threat.
What? The predators are no threat at all. They haven’t been since the Victorian era even for a small hunting party, and can be killed by normal big-game rifles without issue.
Really? Got hard proof of that? When's the last time you bagged a dinosaur?

We have no idea on how hand-held weapons will perform when it comes to dealing with a dinosaur. They are from a radically different environment than ours. Same gravity, sure. Atmospheric conditions were very different. We already know dinosaurs had much sense bones then us (at least, I believe they did). It stands to reason stronger tissues as well.

I'm not saying they're going to be bullet proof, but they could be very bullet resistant.

Not to mention that some species were rather heavily armored. (Ankylosaurioids and Ceratopians come to mind).
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Re: Dinosaur Island (RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-20 06:20pm

Yeah, an Ankylosaur will require either an exceptionally skilled or lucky marksman, or anti-tank weaponry, I would think.

Sauropods could potentially soak up a ridiculous amount of damage just by shear size, too.
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Re: Dinosaur Island (RAR).

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-03-20 08:42pm

I still see China buying it from Trump for a viable missile base against the US ecological research station.
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Re: Dinosaur Island (RAR).

Post by Titan Uranus » 2018-03-20 09:43pm

Solauren wrote:
2018-03-20 06:16pm
Titan Uranus wrote:
2018-03-20 12:40pm
Solauren wrote:
2018-03-19 09:51pm
*snip*
What? The predators are no threat at all. They haven’t been since the Victorian era even for a small hunting party, and can be killed by normal big-game rifles without issue.
Really? Got hard proof of that? When's the last time you bagged a dinosaur?
Oh fuck off. Listen, a skilled hunter can take an African Elephant with a single shot from a .30 caliber rifle. There are much larger big game rifles that are rarely used by professional hunters because there is no purpose to them. With proper shot placement, all animals are fragile creatures.
Walter D.M. Bell was the most prolific elephant hunter that I am aware of, taking 1,011 over his career, all but 28 bulls. He killed ~800 with .275 Rigby (ie 7mm Mauser) rifles, which are just standard 30 cal rifles. He only used a larger .400 Jeffery Nitro Express double rifle (a rifle of the type traditionally called "elephant guns") once on his first safari. He discarded it because he found it gave no improvement over a 7mm Mauser bolt action in lethality.
So, for the largest land animal alive today, which is far warier of humans than any dinosaur is likely to be, and wildly more intelligent as well, a simple 7mm bolt action sufficed. I should mention that most of these shots were to the braincase, the most armored part of an elephant.
We have no idea on how hand-held weapons will perform when it comes to dealing with a dinosaur. They are from a radically different environment than ours. Same gravity, sure. Atmospheric conditions were very different. We already know dinosaurs had much sense bones then us (at least, I believe they did). It stands to reason stronger tissues as well.
“Radically different environment”? They’re from Earth, barely any distance evolutionarily speaking from a whole mess of creatures that are alive today. This means that we can make educated guesses as to their resiliency.
I'm not saying they're going to be bullet proof, but they could be very bullet resistant.
They are Earth-based lifeforms, and not specifically designed to stop bullets.
I don’t think that you quite understand the vast gulf in energy output between intermediate, full size, big game, and novelty cartridges.
They are made of meat, they are not going to be able to resist bullets fired from big game rifles.

BTW:
5.56mm NATO 62 gr M855A1 FMJBT (typical intermediate cartridge) - 1,889 J
7mm 173 gr Mauser - 3,300 J
.400 Jeffery Nitro Express - 5,310 J
.600 Nitro Express - 11,400 J
.577 Tyrannosaur (first post 1900 bullet after 5.56 NATO) - 13,880 J
.50 BMG 800 gr - 20,195 J

And these are all fired from weapons easily portable by a single man (though the last three cannot be fired from the shoulder), without even getting into more novelty cartridges.

But just for shits and giggles, novelty and anti-tank rounds:
KKV 14.5x114mm (more like anti-material/light armor) 1,026 gr - 33,250 J
20mm Long Solothurn (WW2) 1,794 gr - 46,986 J
.950 JDJ 3,600 gr - 52,450 J

But I'm sure that charismatic megafauna of the saurian persuasion can take ten times as much energy to the vitals as modern African elephants can.
Not to mention that some species were rather heavily armored. (Ankylosaurioids and Ceratopians come to mind).
Herbivores.
Besides which, fantastic, the armor shatters, the animal is in great pain and begins to bleed out because now there’s a mass of bone fragments lodged in its side.
And that’s ignoring the fact that the armor did not come close to fully covering the dinosaur, remember it evolved to deal with teeth and claws, not bullets.
And that Ceratopians weren't armored at all, the frill was for display.


They are made of the same meat and bone as mammals, birds, reptiles, and fish are. The basic bits of all vertebrates are remarkably similar, because we only split from one another a couple of hundred million years ago.


The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-20 06:20pm
Yeah, an Ankylosaur will require either an exceptionally skilled or lucky marksman, or anti-tank weaponry, I would think.

Sauropods could potentially soak up a ridiculous amount of damage just by shear size, too.

No, it would not. It would require a big game rifles at worst, and more likely a normal .30 cal and a good shot.

Especially since these things won’t know to be scared of humans.

Christ, the largest Ankylosaur species is estimated to be between 4-8 tons, while male African Bush Elephants average 6.6 and can be 11.5 tons (females average about 3 tons).


Sauropods might be able to soak up a great deal of damage, as long as noone aims for the important bits, but that’s true of any animal larger than a dog.

It's like neither of you have considered dinosaurs as actual animals rather than as movie monsters.

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Re: Dinosaur Island (RAR).

Post by Solauren » 2018-03-20 10:21pm

Titan Uranus wrote: It's like neither of you have considered dinosaurs as actual animals rather than as movie monsters.
No, more like you've watched too many action movies.. Shall we finish with the insults now?

I suggest you do a little research into what environmental conditions were like 70 million years ago.

The planet was alot hotter
The planet had a thicker atmosphere. That meant more pressure on the dinosaurs bodies. (That's why you have creatures bigger then the largest birds today that are capable of gliding or flight)
The planet had a different atmosphereic make-up. (It was actually higher in Oxygen then it was now).
The moon was closer, and that actually made tides and winds considerably stronger.
By all definitions, it was an ALIEN Environment. It just happens to be one were share evolutionary and genetic history with.

Also...
Dinosaur bones were alot thicker, and denser then ours. Probably comes from evolving in an environment where the local alpha predators (i.e T-Rex) had jaws capable of biting a parking meter in half, and where your rivals for territory had defensive adaptations like heavy spiked tails, heavy ball-talls, and horns comparable to swords and spears on them.

Let's not forget, they probably used them on each other during courtship fighting.

You really think species that weight several tons and headbutt each other at 20 miles per hour are going to drop from a SINGLE shot from a hunting rifle? Or that armor evolated to stop a predator that can bite parking meters in half can't take a shot or two?

Elephants may be big and powerful, but they are not armored, and not evolved to handle predators their size.
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Re: Dinosaur Island (RAR).

Post by Sea Skimmer » 2018-03-20 10:34pm

Titan Uranus wrote:
2018-03-20 12:40pm
I think the main problem will be the almost inevitable laxity in quarantine procedures.
Certainly, which is why you need to be as aggressive as possible about it from the get go.
Also, if this island is in the Bermuda Triangle, and big enough to support a breeding population of charismatic magafauna, won’t it really screw with weather patterns?
30x10 miles would not have much effect, unless it contained really tall mountains at the least. Some hurricanes would be weakened, but consider that the Bermuda atoll is about 15 x 10 miles and almost irrelevant. As far as ocean currents and winds go meanwhile this is well east of the gulf steam and on the edge of the Atlantic Gyre where the water is just circling around in the first place.
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Re: Dinosaur Island (RAR).

Post by Majin Gojira » 2018-03-20 10:56pm

Solauren wrote:
2018-03-20 10:21pm
Dinosaur bones were alot thicker, and denser then ours.
There are some things that are not quite right here.

Primarily because most Saurosuchian dinosaurs had hollow bones. Strong, and sturdy, but light.

More importantly, for Tyrannosaurs, Raptors, and so on, was Gastralia. A proto-wishbone set of "Belly ribs" which supported the body further.

And more importantly, dinosaurs are tough. We have ridiculous fossil data on dinosaurs surviving all sorts of injuries that would cripple a mammal (or a bird). They seem to be akin to Crocodilians in terms of their ability to recover from injury. We're talking broken limbs, tail amputations, facial punctures, and more.

And it can get worse.

Say you want to shoot a Triceratops or Ankylosaur -- it's going to be hard to hit it in a vulnerable spot. The heads on both are thick with not just bone, but keratin. Layers of the stuff. A heart shot might be possible with a trike, but an Ankylosaur just has too much armor all around it's body.

You'd need a really high caliber round to put them down. Possibly an explosive or AP round.

Yeah, I know, I just went on about how tough they are, and how strong they are, but honestly, yeah, there are weapons to take them down. And I'm pretty sure a Buffalo or Elephant Gun could do the trick if it's in the right spot to say nothing of military-grade munitions.

Though the latter really removes the sport from it.
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Re: Dinosaur Island (RAR).

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-03-21 02:29pm

Titan Uranus wrote:
2018-03-20 09:43pm
Walter D.M. Bell was the most prolific elephant hunter that I am aware of, taking 1,011 over his career, all but 28 bulls. He killed ~800 with .275 Rigby (ie 7mm Mauser) rifles, which are just standard 30 cal rifles. He only used a larger .400 Jeffery Nitro Express double rifle (a rifle of the type traditionally called "elephant guns") once on his first safari. He discarded it because he found it gave no improvement over a 7mm Mauser bolt action in lethality.
So, for the largest land animal alive today, which is far warier of humans than any dinosaur is likely to be, and wildly more intelligent as well, a simple 7mm bolt action sufficed. I should mention that most of these shots were to the braincase, the most armored part of an elephant.
Couple things, real quick:

Karamajo Bell was an ivory hunter, not a trophy hunter. As long as the elephant died, he didn't much care how quickly it died. His main technique was in climbing a tree, waiting for a herd of elephants to pass underneath, and then just pranging them right through the back of the skull... a soft spot that's otherwise highly inaccessible from the ground. Braincase shots are otherwise nigh impossible unless you get them through the eye or the ear, both pretty small targets.

A modern day trophy hunter is more concerned about quick kills and intact skins, so they're looking to down elephants with a few large rounds, and they can't go climbing trees to do it either. Poachers tend to depend upon quantity of fire. Karamajo Bell was probably closer to the latter in that he tended to go lightly loaded (another reason for the light caliber rifle-- the weapon and ammunition weigh far less!) into the woods, and the overhead firing position he preferred allowed him to take advantage of both an easy target (from that very specific angle) and staying out of the line of vision of very large and dangerous animals.

BTW:
5.56mm NATO 62 gr M855A1 FMJBT (typical intermediate cartridge) - 1,889 J
7mm 173 gr Mauser - 3,300 J
.400 Jeffery Nitro Express - 5,310 J
.600 Nitro Express - 11,400 J
.577 Tyrannosaur (first post 1900 bullet after 5.56 NATO) - 13,880 J
.50 BMG 800 gr - 20,195 J

And these are all fired from weapons easily portable by a single man (though the last three cannot be fired from the shoulder), without even getting into more novelty cartridges.
Image

You cannot fire .50 BMG from the shoulder? How peculiar. Barrett would like to have a word with you.

I wouldn't recommend going prone to fire a Nitro Express, either. You don't want to meet that recoil with a rigid torso...

Image

But that's my general nitpick over.

A more specific nitpick: How is a modern day hunter going to be familiar with the lethal spots of a dinosaur, particularly species with all kinds of interesting stuff in the way like frills, horns, skin flaps, etc? Sure you can make a general guess (vertebrate anatomy does tend to be fairly consistent) but beyond pure organ layout, how are they going to know, for example, that two shots to the heart WILL drop an Apatosaurus? Is it going to run you over within the next ten minutes? And so forth...
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Re: Dinosaur Island (RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-21 03:57pm

Titan Uranus wrote:
2018-03-20 09:43pm
No, it would not. It would require a big game rifles at worst, and more likely a normal .30 cal and a good shot.

Especially since these things won’t know to be scared of humans.

Christ, the largest Ankylosaur species is estimated to be between 4-8 tons, while male African Bush Elephants average 6.6 and can be 11.5 tons (females average about 3 tons).


Sauropods might be able to soak up a great deal of damage, as long as noone aims for the important bits, but that’s true of any animal larger than a dog.

It's like neither of you have considered dinosaurs as actual animals rather than as movie monsters.
In the Ankylosaurs' case, I wasn't actually thinking of size, so much as the massive layer of armor covering most of their bodies.

Now, I admittedly don't know how well that armor would stand up to rifle fire. I doubt anyone has ever put it to the test. But there are considerations other than bulk, here.
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"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

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I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

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