100 lightsabers in Renaissance Italy (RAR)

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100 lightsabers in Renaissance Italy (RAR)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2017-12-29 03:40am

In 1452, a 100 lightsabers rain into Venice, Rome, and Florence Italy from a very low cloud. Luckily, no damage was done to the weapons. What happens when the dueling societies of Italy have access to Star Wars weaponry?
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Re: 100 lightsabers in Renaissance Italy (RAR)

Post by bilateralrope » 2017-12-29 05:16am

How long do the power supplies last ?

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Re: 100 lightsabers in Renaissance Italy (RAR)

Post by Broomstick » 2017-12-29 09:11am

Light sabers have limited utility beyond fencing - instead of swords and epees some of the nobility are using lightsabers for dueling.
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Re: 100 lightsabers in Renaissance Italy (RAR)

Post by Thanas » 2017-12-29 10:44am

Broomstick wrote:
2017-12-29 09:11am
Light sabers have limited utility beyond fencing - instead of swords and epees some of the nobility are using lightsabers for dueling.
Lulwhut?

They cut through fortress stone, making them superb siege weapons. They would be without a doubt decisive in any naval battle. And can you imagine what a bunch of lightsaber-equipped espadachines are going to do on the battlefield?


Light sabers would be potent enough that it would immediately mean the forming of a grand alliance against venice. Not because of their number (100 is too limited) but because other powers would view the threat of venice potentially getting more of them a threat to themselves).
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Re: 100 lightsabers in Renaissance Italy (RAR)

Post by Gandalf » 2017-12-29 11:13am

I'd be keen to see hpw people tried to use them for other stuff, like mining and earthworks.

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Re: 100 lightsabers in Renaissance Italy (RAR)

Post by Simon_Jester » 2017-12-29 11:18am

Thanas wrote:
2017-12-29 10:44am
Broomstick wrote:
2017-12-29 09:11am
Light sabers have limited utility beyond fencing - instead of swords and epees some of the nobility are using lightsabers for dueling.
Lulwhut?

They cut through fortress stone, making them superb siege weapons. They would be without a doubt decisive in any naval battle. And can you imagine what a bunch of lightsaber-equipped espadachines are going to do on the battlefield?
Get shot full of bullets and arrows, because they carry conspicuous glowy things and don't have Jedi deflection powers? But I joke, I joke...

Why Venice in particular? I mean, I know Venice was powerful in those days, I'm just wondering why Venice specifically gets dogpiled.
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Re: 100 lightsabers in Renaissance Italy (RAR)

Post by Zixinus » 2017-12-29 01:23pm

You have a very rash outbreak of various kinds of murder for the lightsabers, as they are ridiculously powerful items that everyone would want one?

I mean, as a dueling weapon alone it makes you near- unbeatable: you can just chop through an opponent's sword. That renders most forms of swordfighting pointless as you can't block in any way. In fact, in a more honorable dueling (if they exists in any way I think of it), the weapon would be outright banned because it makes any fight almost completely one-sided (whereas the point of a duel was to allow God/valor decide). Unless the wielder is utterly incompetent, you will need either a miracle or firearms to take a wielder down.

Ultimately I would imagine that the weapons would be the most sought-after items in the world, next to holy relics.

I might imagine the Church trying to ban them and/or amass them as they are clearly divine weapons.

As for actual use, they'd probably be restricted as treasured tools of the most powerful who would use them only when their utility can be maximized: say, by carving through stone or steel doors; or as displays of power. I would not be surprised if a few ended up as official regalia of kings and emperors.
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Re: 100 lightsabers in Renaissance Italy (RAR)

Post by Thanas » 2017-12-29 01:54pm

Simon_Jester wrote:
2017-12-29 11:18am
Get shot full of bullets and arrows, because they carry conspicuous glowy things and don't have Jedi deflection powers? But I joke, I joke...
Yes, jest jest. But it is surprisingly hard to hit well-trained espadachines anyway if they time their deployment right....eating projectiles is what the pikemen are for.


EDIT: I swear I thought this was only listing venice at the start but I must have mistaken. Neverthelesss, any power which has these weapons will get dogpiled immediately.
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Re: 100 lightsabers in Renaissance Italy (RAR)

Post by Q99 » 2017-12-29 02:38pm

Zixinus wrote:
2017-12-29 01:23pm
You have a very rash outbreak of various kinds of murder for the lightsabers, as they are ridiculously powerful items that everyone would want one?

I mean, as a dueling weapon alone it makes you near- unbeatable: you can just chop through an opponent's sword. That renders most forms of swordfighting pointless as you can't block in any way. In fact, in a more honorable dueling (if they exists in any way I think of it), the weapon would be outright banned because it makes any fight almost completely one-sided (whereas the point of a duel was to allow God/valor decide). Unless the wielder is utterly incompetent, you will need either a miracle or firearms to take a wielder down.
I wanna note: In dueling, 'voiding'/dodging is way more preferable than blocking, a lot of fights are decided without blocking. Someone with a saber is good, but by no means unbeatable.

That said, the fact that it makes blocking much more of an option for your own defense is still a major edge, and eliminating even the possibility of a parry doesn't hurt.

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Re: 100 lightsabers in Renaissance Italy (RAR)

Post by Thanas » 2017-12-29 03:25pm

There is no way lightsabers would be ussed in dueling because it would be just as dishonorable as bringing pistols to a rapierfight.
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Re: 100 lightsabers in Renaissance Italy (RAR)

Post by Simon_Jester » 2017-12-29 09:48pm

Thanas wrote:
2017-12-29 01:54pm
EDIT: I swear I thought this was only listing venice at the start but I must have mistaken. Neverthelesss, any power which has these weapons will get dogpiled immediately.
What's the threshold for the dogpile, though? Having thirty of them as military tools makes you pretty formidable and worth dogpiling to split the prize. But having ten? Five? Two?
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Re: 100 lightsabers in Renaissance Italy (RAR)

Post by LadyTevar » 2017-12-29 11:09pm

What you are forgetting gentlemen, is this is a time of Mercenary Companies and near-constant in-fighting between the Italian City-States. At the time these lightsabers are dropped, the Wars in Lombardy were still in full swing between Milan and Venice (with Florence backing Venice). While the big campaigns were over by 1440, the Treaty of Lodi that ended the conflict and set the border between Milan and Venice wouldn't be until 1454.

Now, you've just dropped a brand new weapon onto the field. I'm thinking Milan and Venice would be after those weapons a soon as possible in order to start a new campaign. The Treaty of Lodi will never happen, and the Italic League that began with the treaty will not occur. The Italic League was the precursor to United Italy.
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Re: 100 lightsabers in Renaissance Italy (RAR)

Post by Thanas » 2017-12-30 06:45am

LadyTevar wrote:
2017-12-29 11:09pm
The Italic League was the precursor to United Italy.
If you believe 19th century propaganda then yes.
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Re: 100 lightsabers in Renaissance Italy (RAR)

Post by Zor » 2017-12-30 03:17pm

Thanas wrote:
2017-12-29 10:44am
Broomstick wrote:
2017-12-29 09:11am
Light sabers have limited utility beyond fencing - instead of swords and epees some of the nobility are using lightsabers for dueling.
Lulwhut?

They cut through fortress stone, making them superb siege weapons. They would be without a doubt decisive in any naval battle. And can you imagine what a bunch of lightsaber-equipped espadachines are going to do on the battlefield?


Light sabers would be potent enough that it would immediately mean the forming of a grand alliance against venice. Not because of their number (100 is too limited) but because other powers would view the threat of venice potentially getting more of them a threat to themselves).
There are also industrial applications for them.

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Re: 100 lightsabers in Renaissance Italy (RAR)

Post by Broomstick » 2017-12-31 12:01am

Thanas wrote:
2017-12-29 10:44am
Broomstick wrote:
2017-12-29 09:11am
Light sabers have limited utility beyond fencing - instead of swords and epees some of the nobility are using lightsabers for dueling.
Lulwhut?

They cut through fortress stone, making them superb siege weapons. They would be without a doubt decisive in any naval battle. And can you imagine what a bunch of lightsaber-equipped espadachines are going to do on the battlefield?
They've got 100 lightsabers and no resupply or repair capability. Siege weapons? Their range is limited, how are you going to protect the saber-wielding sappers while they're whacking away at stone walls? What about shoring up those walls/foundations while tunneling?

They only way they'll factor in a naval battle is if they are used by a boarding party. Again, limited range, they're melee weapons, not distance.

Sure, in limited circumstances they'll make a difference, but the enemies of Venice have distance weapons.
Light sabers would be potent enough that it would immediately mean the forming of a grand alliance against venice. Not because of their number (100 is too limited) but because other powers would view the threat of venice potentially getting more of them a threat to themselves).
And how is anyone going to get more of them? Their tech is such they might as well be magic. No one can reverse-engineer them, no one can repair them.
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Re: 100 lightsabers in Renaissance Italy (RAR)

Post by Thanas » 2017-12-31 02:18am

Broomstick wrote:
2017-12-31 12:01am
They've got 100 lightsabers and no resupply or repair capability. Siege weapons? Their range is limited, how are you going to protect the saber-wielding sappers while they're whacking away at stone walls?
The same way as it had been done for centuries?
What about shoring up those walls/foundations while tunneling?
See above.


They only way they'll factor in a naval battle is if they are used by a boarding party. Again, limited range, they're melee weapons, not distance.
I let you in on a little secret - almost every naval battle in the renaissance involved and most often was decided by boarding actions. Like for example Lepanto.
And how is anyone going to get more of them? Their tech is such they might as well be magic. No one can reverse-engineer them, no one can repair them.
The other nations don't know that and cannot take the chance.
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Re: 100 lightsabers in Renaissance Italy (RAR)

Post by Broomstick » 2017-12-31 09:28am

Thanas wrote:
2017-12-31 02:18am
Broomstick wrote:
2017-12-31 12:01am
They've got 100 lightsabers and no resupply or repair capability. Siege weapons? Their range is limited, how are you going to protect the saber-wielding sappers while they're whacking away at stone walls?
The same way as it had been done for centuries?
What about shoring up those walls/foundations while tunneling?
See above.
Basically, in that context the lightsaber is a better shovel - it's just one aspect of the whole process. Yes, they will help, but they aren't an instant-win.
Thanas wrote:
2017-12-31 02:18am
Broomstick wrote:
2017-12-31 12:01am
They only way they'll factor in a naval battle is if they are used by a boarding party. Again, limited range, they're melee weapons, not distance.
I let you in on a little secret - almost every naval battle in the renaissance involved and most often was decided by boarding actions. Like for example Lepanto.
They have to get to the point of boarding, first. This will provide an incentive to improve ranged weaponry of the time because if you can sink that enemy ship then the lightsabers aren't going to be decisive and are going to wind up on the bottom of the sea.
Thanas wrote:
2017-12-31 02:18am
Broomstick wrote:
2017-12-31 12:01am
And how is anyone going to get more of them? Their tech is such they might as well be magic. No one can reverse-engineer them, no one can repair them.
The other nations don't know that and cannot take the chance.
At some point the other nations are going to figure that out, then it becomes a matter of who can capture how many of the dwindling supply.

Don't get me wrong, I think they'll be both useful and deadly, but I don't think you can build an empire on them.
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Re: 100 lightsabers in Renaissance Italy (RAR)

Post by Thanas » 2017-12-31 12:15pm

Broomstick wrote:
2017-12-31 09:28am
Basically, in that context the lightsaber is a better shovel - it's just one aspect of the whole process. Yes, they will help, but they aren't an instant-win.
I love to see a shovel that is able to singlehandedly collapse a wall. This gets even worse because you do not know which dude is holding a lightsaber, so now you have to treat every runner as an existential threat.
They have to get to the point of boarding, first. This will provide an incentive to improve ranged weaponry of the time because if you can sink that enemy ship then the lightsabers aren't going to be decisive and are going to wind up on the bottom of the sea.
....

Do you really think they weren't constantly improving ranged weapons all the time? But with renaissance tech it is pretty hard to sink ships in general. Just look at the Anglo-Dutch wars or the battle of lepanto. And you don't need to have all 100 of the lightsabers on one ship or so. Just one or two is enough.
At some point the other nations are going to figure that out, then it becomes a matter of who can capture how many of the dwindling supply.

Don't get me wrong, I think they'll be both useful and deadly, but I don't think you can build an empire on them.
I think you absolutely can become the dominant power in Italy....until the HRE and Spain hit you over the head.
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Re: 100 lightsabers in Renaissance Italy (RAR)

Post by Zixinus » 2017-12-31 04:42pm

Or the lightsabres are simply sold, either for gold or for alliances, once they are secured. Lightsabres are easily portable and can be easily smuggled out.
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Re: 100 lightsabers in Renaissance Italy (RAR)

Post by Raesene » 2018-01-01 10:51am

A galley with a spar torpedoes carrying lightsabers or a ram spur utilizing a lightsaber would be formidable. The difficulty would be protecting the so equipped vessel from the dogpile.

For sabotaging a fleet at anchor using a swimmer it would be perfect.

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Re: 100 lightsabers in Renaissance Italy (RAR)

Post by Raw Shark » 2018-01-03 02:23pm

No love for Sicily? But yeah, I was kind of with Gandalf on this one: Well-defended, somewhat unsexy but very profitable industrial applications. Anybody tries to make off with one gets blown away by a few dozen very loyal hand-picked guards. Gotta say, Raesene's saber-in-teeth swimmers have some potential, too, though. No fucking way they're losing 1% of those things to a mishap; Renaissance Italy had some pretty good rope unless I am mistaken. Tie that shit to the boat or a tree or something. Magic Frogman goes down, saber comes back. Magic frogman starts to go down and has any sense of self-preservation, maybe they figure out a signal and haul him back in, too. If not, well... even I swim pretty well. Fuck, even I made it a mile and back for my swimming merit badge, and one time for a whisper of a hope of some vagina (didn't happen - we smoked pot and made s'mores with the girl scouts, but I lead that quest because of course I did and was proud of it by FSM) You think one mile each way is going to stop teenage boys? "Nothing can defeat the penis!" Except, y'know, lack of consent ideally. At the very least the cookie girls were flattered, or at least bored to tears with sewing sit-upons. And hey, pot and s'mores isn't an awful Tuesday.

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Re: 100 lightsabers in Renaissance Italy (RAR)

Post by Titan Uranus » 2018-01-03 07:34pm

I don’t think that these sabers would be best used for combat. There are so many industrial/mining/construction uses that will probably be more profitable than combat. Remember, there’s only a limited supply and while outsiders don’t know that, the people who get them sure as hell do.

Also, if it’s just a random rain of lightsabers, most will not be found and if found, they will be found by peasants.

I suppose that one could predict some mildly successful peasant rebellions (as in, they killed the local sheriff-equivalent and some guards) until the peasants get eaten alive by massed forces. Or alternatively, some surprisingly successful rebellions once the city slickers behind the barred gates find that their walls aren’t as impregnable as they thought.


Still, eventually the sabers would filter their way into the hands of the banking/trading families just like everything else of value. But this is Italy, the manufacturing capital of Europe, how valuable and profitable would a tool which can cut any material be? You can use it for an effective milling machine. Even better, you can use it to easily replace bits and jigs for a milling machine (I expect that you can make the metal much harder if you don’t have to worry about reshaping it afterwards.) You can cut huge, monolithic stones in minutes rather than months or years. Instead of taking decades to build a Cathedral, it only takes a few months for the stone core, plus however long the glass and other bits need. And speaking of glass, I’m not sure if light sabers can cut glass, but if they can, then those new Cathedral windows are going to have a much more even consistency than the shaped glass of those pathetic foreign Cathedrals.

I’m sure that there are far more applications that I haven’t thought of, but the point is that each saber represents a huge amount of economic potential for any family that holds them. And you want to risk said potential in battle where it could be easily lost or captured? Madness.

Maybe in an important seige, as a method of breaching the wall. Maybe if the blade could be hidden from the enemy command structure and used to open a pike block at a key moment. But you could not mass these blades, anyone who could has the money to buy the enemy’s army out from under him. Any use is a massive risk, because these blades are going to be worth more than entire Northern European cities. Which, by the way, is part of why you need to hide the blade, it’s likely to be more valuable that whatever you are fighting the war over, unless the spoils also involve lightsabers.

Battles were and are not won by individual champions, they were and are won by economics, strategy, luck, morale, training, experience, terrain, weather, etc. But almost never individual champions.

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Re: 100 lightsabers in Renaissance Italy (RAR)

Post by Thanas » 2018-01-04 07:57am

Titan Uranus wrote:
2018-01-03 07:34pm
Battles were and are not won by individual champions, they were and are won by economics, strategy, luck, morale, training, experience, terrain, weather, etc. But almost never individual champions.
It is not about individual champions. It is about creating/buffing units that were considered the best of their time and were already feared enough that most times the enemy did not want to face them. That is an invaluable tool.
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Re: 100 lightsabers in Renaissance Italy (RAR)

Post by LaCroix » 2018-01-04 08:58am

While I agree that they most likely will be used in construction (not only stone cutting, but also ore smellting, glass production, etc), the Lightsaber is the ultimate sapper tool.

It MELTS the ground. You don't have to carry dirt away, it just melts into a (relatively small puddle.) It even works as a tool to reinforce the tunnels, as the resulting surface will be watertight, which makes tunnelling so much easier. You sitll will need wooden supports, but the digging is going to be so much faster...

Also, it digs without sound. Tunnelling was usually detected by listenning to the more or less continuous impact of shovels and pickaxes, which made it easy to pinpoint and counterdig. This will be virtually silent, apart from the occasional support post errection.
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

I do archery skeet. With a Trebuchet.

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LaCroix
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Re: 100 lightsabers in Renaissance Italy (RAR)

Post by LaCroix » 2018-01-04 09:10am

Thanas wrote:
2018-01-04 07:57am
It is not about individual champions. It is about creating/buffing units that were considered the best of their time and were already feared enough that most times the enemy did not want to face them. That is an invaluable tool.
Indeed. Italian warfare of that time usually consisted in the two armies (most of them condottieri - paid mercenaries with expensive kit) meeting and assessing from afar. Since none of them actually wanted to lose on their investment in equipment and training, the battle was usually decided by the generals meeting each other and negotiating the outcome, depending on troop strenght and terrain layout. Rarely did they have a light engagement to test their predictions, followed by a second round of talks.

They became so used to that kind of warfare that when the French invaded, they were so surprised that these guys actually were willing to fight battles to the end that they got wiped off the map for a couple of months until they got their heads around the concept of actual warfare and quickly united and hired any merc they could get hold of (Mostly Landsknechte, who also meant business).
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

I do archery skeet. With a Trebuchet.

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