Star Tracks, railways to the stars (RAR!)

[Zor]

Technically a crossover with Pandora's Star, but one that is not of a verses nature.

In this scenario it's the year 2055 while a Zephram Cochrane is still working on his warp drive when another group beats him to the punch using a technology that has up until recently gone unexploited. Masterminded by two brilliant (even if they do fit the stoner archetype to some degree) young scientists in California manage to throw together a device connected to some nuclear reactors and a fair deal of high end computers which they use to just stroll in and visit Mars.

The system is an artificial wormhole generator and while it does take a fair bit of power and computational power to run and has a practical range limitation of about thirty lightyears (about as much as a star trek starship requires for interstellar operations) though this is lessened if there is a terminal on either side, especially if you want to fix a wormhole to a planet's surface. Never the less it does allow nearly instantaneous travel across interstellar distances. A train can leave a station on earth and arrive in Alpha Centauri or on Vulcan in a few seconds, a development that happens shortly after they drop a probe in the Vulcan system. This leads Zephram Cochrane to give up on the Pheonix and eventually to drink himself into surly oblivion while Nigel Sheldon and Ozzie Issacs get into the history books. A minor quirk of this is that releases exotic radiation that is harmless to humans, but makes beaming anything in or out within 8,000km from an active wormhole station impossible.

What happens?

Zor

[LadyTevar]

(snip)
What happens?

Zor

Everyone is Excellent with each other

[Simon_Jester]

This is specifically in the Star Trek universe? Gotcha.

Okay, for one, you still need starships, and startrains won't replace starships any more than the locomotive made the horse and carriage obsolete, prevented the rise of the automobile, or later convinced people there was no need for helicopters.

The big reasons you still need ships are economic, exploratory, and military.

Economic: Some resources are going to be located in space or on planetary surfaces it is unwise to permanently connect to YOUR planetary surface- say, an airless moon. While there are workarounds (roll carloads of ore into a big airlock built around your portal, portal them through, open airlock, lather, rinse, repeat), you still want/need spaceships to travel to some of these points. Probably.

Exploratory: This is a stronger reason. It isn't always going to be safe or advisable to explore an alien planet by randomly opening up a wormhole from YOUR planet- there may be dangerous diseases, hostile natives, toxic atmosphere, high or low pressure atmosphere, et cetera. By the time you stick your head out of the wormhole and figure out what's going on on the other side, the other side already knows about you and has started affecting you- and, through your wormhole, your home planet. Furthermore, wormholes don't allow you to do a quick orbital scan of the planet to find interesting anomalies (which in Star Trek is easy to do with a ship). They don't let you investigate a phenomenon in deep space such as a nebula or stellar remnant. And as noted, they don't let you selectively pick and choose how close you get to whatever you're investigating; you go from "hopelessly far away" to "smack in the middle" in an eyeblink.

Military: For military purposes they're great for logistics (in terms of moving stuff from planet to planet) but are extremely vulnerable chokepoints (anyone with a ship and a big nuke can break your chain of wormhole jumps by bombing one or more of the wormhole transit stations). And you can't really use them for "opposed landings" because, again, big chokepoint. If the enemy has orbital fortifications, and you open a wormhole as a 'beachhead' on their planet, you have like five minutes tops before their orbital bombardment starts wrecking your shit.

So yeah, Captain Kirk still needs his Enterprise, even if a lot of other things about the setting change.

[tezunegari]

Warp drive would still be developed or at least bought from the Vulcans. The StarTrain can only connect to other planetary bodies within 30 ly. If you want to go somewhere further away you need a ship to transport the terminal there.

Then there is the question of how many "starTracks" can connect to a planet at the same time:
- single connection like Stargate? Scheduling will be a nightmare.
- multiple connections?

Also this creates a single point of attack... if the distance to the next planet is 30+ ly than the only thing an attacker has to do is take down the terminal(s) before launching an attack.

Now, if you could upgrade the StarTrain to not need a planetary body to connect to, e.g. turn it into a Jump drive for a ship...

[Elheru Aran]

Also it seems you can only open a 'Star Track' outside a certain distance of another. You could counter attempts against your strongholds simply by keeping a wormhole open at your location, and they wouldn't be able to open one except anywhere outside that perimeter, thus giving you time to see where they're coming from, particularly if you have orbital support over your planet.

In the long run, particularly if this is Trekverse, it's not going to make a huge difference other than making transit between nearby systems easier in some regards. I can see this being used for bulk trade, for example, to free up space on ships for longer distance transport.

[Zor]

Then there is the question of how many "starTracks" can connect to a planet at the same time:
- single connection like Stargate? Scheduling will be a nightmare.
- multiple connections?

Multiple connections are possible. If you have the generators up you can have a train run from Vulcan to Earth and then to Alpha Centauri. Some of the passengers that get off on earth get on another train going along another line to Andoria.

Zor

[Elheru Aran]

Then there is the question of how many "starTracks" can connect to a planet at the same time:
- single connection like Stargate? Scheduling will be a nightmare.
- multiple connections?

Multiple connections are possible. If you have the generators up you can have a train run from Vulcan to Earth and then to Alpha Centauri. Some of the passengers that get off on earth get on another train going along another line to Andoria.

Zor

But if the connection is interrupted at some point in the middle, say Vulcan goes offline between Earth and Alpha Centauri or whatever, then those two planets cannot reach anything further without some connecting point, correct?

Do wormholes have to be run from a planet or can they go to a space station? Because if that's the case I can see DS stations being established to keep the trains running over long distances, particularly if strategically significant planets are involved.

[Zor]

Then there is the question of how many "starTracks" can connect to a planet at the same time:
- single connection like Stargate? Scheduling will be a nightmare.
- multiple connections?

Multiple connections are possible. If you have the generators up you can have a train run from Vulcan to Earth and then to Alpha Centauri. Some of the passengers that get off on earth get on another train going along another line to Andoria.

Zor

But if the connection is interrupted at some point in the middle, say Vulcan goes offline between Earth and Alpha Centauri or whatever, then those two planets cannot reach anything further without some connecting point, correct?

If the Vulcan-Earth goes the Vulcan/Earth/Alpha Centauri Line that line would be down until they repair the link or if they can reroute the link to a reserve gateway on either Earth or Vulcan. The Earth/Andoria line (or any other line) would be unaffected.

Do wormholes have to be run from a planet or can they go to a space station? Because if that's the case I can see DS stations being established to keep the trains running over long distances, particularly if strategically significant planets are involved.

They can be built in space.

Zor

[Elheru Aran]

Well there you go then. A new method of bulk transport between economically and strategically vital systems, even those less vital. This could be extremely useful in many regards. Simon's statements about still needing starships remain relevant, though.

[FedRebel]

This is just three years into the cease fire, I would imagine that the US government would seize interest into the wormhole project and look into weaponizing it for use against ECON.

The USAF would take funding and staff away from Cochrane's "Project: Phoenix" to devote more resources to the wormhole program

The Department of Defense begins planning for, "Operation: Archangel"...breaking the cease fire by using the wormholes to deploy Army Groups into the heart of ECON territory and preempt remaining ECON strategic sites.

2058: "Operation: Archangel" is a smashing success, ECON was still years away from anything comparable and was caught completely flatfooted as the US didn't telegraph force deployments to any contested territory.

With ECON completely surrendering, the wormholes fall to joint DoD/NASA control...on the military side they simplify logistics enabling cheaper occupation of ECON territory and more efficient aid distribution to the European Hegemony, NASA side is mostly propaganda missions (with a side of research) to the planets.

When NASA makes contact with Vulcan, the DoD realizes they are on the wrong side of a "starship gap", Cochrane is asked to comeback to work with unlimited funding and better facilities, NX-01 enters service 50 years early...and under USAF flag.

Politically the world has to accept American primacy and dialogue between the US and European Hegemony to reform the UN...transforms into the "United States of Terra", being built out of the US governmental system as a new primary tier...

United States of Terra -> USA -> States -> Counties

...the 'UST' would at founding consist of the USA, European Hegemony, ASEAN, and former ECON territory which was broken into two blocs after US occupation, Commonwealth of Independent States & Shanghai Cooperation Organization

Earth in this timeline would not be constrained by Vulcan oversight, by 2151 NASA and the USAF have parted joint operations for the most part. NASA uses the wormholes almost exclusively for exploration, while the USAF (now United States Aerospace Force) operates almost exclusively ships for territorial defense.

NASA does have it's own ships, but very few...and purely tailored for cosmic research. The DoD does still rely on wormholes for primarily the Army and force projection purposes...USAF specific use is generally limited to Pararescue.

The transporter jamming radiation would be a welcome surprise in time, and attempts would be made to reproduce the particles more cheaply for defensive and military purposes.

I would imagine that once the Terrans learn of the Iconian civilization and the parallels to their Gateways, NASA would stop 'boldly going" and would begin to operate far more meekly, while the military focuses on uparming the starfleet

And considering that real life 1960's proposals under USAF Project: Orion packed the firepower of a Galaxy Class Starship into an 87 Meter package...




....not hard to make ships that'd make Borg Cubes flee in terror, using 22nd century technology and antimatter...so long as you have the right mindset

[JI_Joe84]

So basically star gate but in early star trek universe. Hhhmm, my first guess is all those cargo ship never get built because of wormhole travel is way more efficient. Instead ships would be used only for places no one has ever been to and as soon as some thing interesting is found, habitable planet, minerals, farmable land the gate network sounds efficient enough for a food trade-economy.
Warp/ship development happens as others have described, non existent until the USAF war hawks see Vulcan's shiny ships, then all out mad rush to develop said ships on earth.
They do a lot of exploring, up close as star mapping can be done from home with a new class of super telescopes using sub space and worm holes.

[JI_Joe84]

Also what happens to a space ship, in space, trying to go through one of these gates?
Obviously both ends would be in space, entrance and exit.
If it works, a space based gate system could be a good way to fast track ships and space based equipment to "the frontier" for exploit. Errr I mean exploration missions.

[Simon_Jester]

This is just three years into the cease fire, I would imagine that the US government would seize interest into the wormhole project and look into weaponizing it for use against ECON.

The USAF would take funding and staff away from Cochrane's "Project: Phoenix" to devote more resources to the wormhole program

Did Cochrane even have Air Force funding? He had an old abandoned missile silo and what sure looked like a repurposed Titan missile (in 2063!?), but frankly he was able to launch his ship in a half-collapsed post-apocalyptic Air Force. I don't think he needs them.

Also, I don't know who the hell ECON is or why the US is so enthusiastically planning to murder them in a massive masturbatory fantasy on your part.

And considering that real life 1960's proposals under USAF Project: Orion packed the firepower of a Galaxy Class Starship into an 87 Meter package...

....not hard to make ships that'd make Borg Cubes flee in terror, using 22nd century technology and antimatter...so long as you have the right mindset

Oh, fucking bullshit. The ability to crap out nuclear warheads and chemical-fired missiles from your ship does not give it the firepower of a Galaxy or any other Star Trek ship aside from, oh, Harry Mudd's unarmed blockade runner or whatever.

A nuclear pulse propulsion ship is hopelessly slow, poorly protected, and effectively unarmed compared to ships in Star Trek. It lacks the range, striking power, and flexibility to accomplish anything, its missiles cannot reach a maneuvering target let alone hit it, and it is comically vulnerable to return fire.

Please stop using every vaguely applicable speculative fiction thread to jerk off over Orion-drive battleships. It's tiresome.

[Zor]

Also what happens to a space ship, in space, trying to go through one of these gates?
Obviously both ends would be in space, entrance and exit.
If it works, a space based gate system could be a good way to fast track ships and space based equipment to "the frontier" for exploit. Errr I mean exploration missions.

Depends on the size of a ship. A common 20 meter wide wormhole used for an up and down lane for 3 meter gauge Double Decker passenger trains could easily have a shuttle thread the needle. For flying a full scale star ship like an Intrepid or an NX you'd want a wormhole 200 meters wide. Making one would be possible but it would require a lot of energy.

Zor

[Elheru Aran]

Also what happens to a space ship, in space, trying to go through one of these gates?
Obviously both ends would be in space, entrance and exit.
If it works, a space based gate system could be a good way to fast track ships and space based equipment to "the frontier" for exploit. Errr I mean exploration missions.

Depends on the size of a ship. A common 20 meter wide wormhole used for an up and down lane for 3 meter gauge Double Decker passenger trains could easily have a shuttle thread the needle. For flying a full scale star ship like an Intrepid or an NX you'd want a wormhole 200 meters wide. Making one would be possible but it would require a lot of energy.

Zor

If this is the case, I see no reason that trains could not incorporate passenger travel, nor that shuttles could not be used to pass through the wormhole and go directly to destinations further from the wormhole. Particularly as there is an area around the wormhole on either end that interdicts other wormholes being opened within that area. For conduit between very busy/prosperous/otherwise significant planets, I cannot see why they would not make a larger wormhole, for either using multiple trains at once, or spaceships. 8000 km was the distance quoted was it not? You could put a large wormhole in orbit around a planet without too much trouble, the only question would be running power, but you could take a few old ships and simply park them with huge-ass generators on their backs.

The advantages of instantaneous travel are simply too great to overstate, and the Federation has enough resources and scientific know-how to make use of this. It's an important enough change to the paradigm of Trek that it may affect the early development of the Federation, though likely not greatly. This would be a behind-the-scenes change which alters economic and strategic relationships rather than affecting what we saw on screen in the prime timeline as much.

[JI_Joe84]

Also what happens to a space ship, in space, trying to go through one of these gates?
Obviously both ends would be in space, entrance and exit.
If it works, a space based gate system could be a good way to fast track ships and space based equipment to "the frontier" for exploit. Errr I mean exploration missions.

Depends on the size of a ship. A common 20 meter wide wormhole used for an up and down lane for 3 meter gauge Double Decker passenger trains could easily have a shuttle thread the needle. For flying a full scale star ship like an Intrepid or an NX you'd want a wormhole 200 meters wide. Making one would be possible but it would require a lot of energy.

Zor

Energy is easy once every thing is in space, as long as you are close to a star. The damn things just sit there and put out massive amounts of energy 24/7 in all directions. Energy is not a problem, in space. When you want to take energy with you, example put it in a vehicle, then things get harder to power because then it must be compact, light and still dense. That's hard to do, especially if you want it easy and safe for regular people to use.
In this case I am thinking a gigantic space based solar array to power a space based tunnel between the major players that would allow ships, their biggest ships and because its a choke point it would be vulnerable but if it were in orbit or at least very near it should not be a problem. If their is a threat that could be on your home world's doorstep faster than your friends launching their fleets through these tunnels, then you need defences parked there at the planet, some thing like ICBM's that can chase down even big warships and destroy them.
Some body shows up with a battleship and forgets their manners then all you need do is have some one lob one of those missles at them. Problem solved. Earth and friends galactic tunnel trading advantage is safe and secure and open for business.
This would be needed because there are minerals in asteroids and moons and getting stuff out of gravity wells is VERY energy intensive and if we use these tunnels to make stuff for space stations and other space things and then put them in space with the tunnels we are still missing out on all those asteroids and whatever is in them.
Isn't their enough mass in the asteroid belt to make another earth? Why send you planets natural minerals into space when there is potentially practically unlimited resources up there, right in our back yard?
We could easily see a rule, space stuff gets made out of material mined in space and ground stuff comes from material sourced from mines on planet, but only really once a certain amount of infrastructure is built off world.

This is such a gold mine, a gigantic gold mine of a technology.
You think computers revolutionized our planet? Just wait till you see what this will do.

[JI_Joe84]

Question: what happens once a you open a end close to a star? How close can it get?

[Zor]

Question: what happens once a you open a end close to a star? How close can it get?

You can get fairly close in astronomical terms, but you can’t open one within a dozen million km within a star like a sun.

Zor

[JI_Joe84]

Question: what happens once a you open a end close to a star? How close can it get?

You can get fairly close in astronomical terms, but you can’t open one within a dozen million km within a star like a sun.

Zor

Hhmmm, well then might as well go with solar panels in space then.
Gigantic solar arrays, energy problems? What energy problems? LOL

[Simon_Jester]

Existing Star Trek technology seems to make things like asteroid mining (and asteroid capture for mining) and vast if not nigh-unlimited energy supplies already available. If this is happening in Star Trek, the obvious answer to the question "what would massive solar arrays do for us" is "probably no more or less than they already do for Star Trek anyway."

[JI_Joe84]

Existing Star Trek technology seems to make things like asteroid mining (and asteroid capture for mining) and vast if not nigh-unlimited energy supplies already available. If this is happening in Star Trek, the obvious answer to the question "what would massive solar arrays do for us" is "probably no more or less than they already do for Star Trek anyway."

I believe the OP postulated this is before Zefram flew his warp ship. The earth is still realing from WW3 when this rolls out.

[Simon_Jester]

Yes, but the Earth is probably going to be reeling from World War Three whether its marvelous new technology is portals OR warp drives. You can't just snap your fingers and make infinite masses of solar panels plus infrastructure for beamed power transmission across tens of millions of kilometers appear out of nothing.

The point is, solar power stations and asteroid mining and space resource extraction in general, when happening in the Star Trek universe, aren't going to cause much more change than they already do in Star Trek in particular. Having portals instead of warp-drive starships be the 'killer app' for interplanetary/interstellar travel isn't going to change that.

[JI_Joe84]

Yes so the going is slow at first but with a way to get to another planet would be just the thing to get people working toward a common goal. "Hey every body! If we work together we can get off this rock!" "Who would rather live some where other than the ruble of WW3?"
Tell me that won't get people motivated.