New Doctor Revealed Sunday After Wimbledon

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Re: New Doctor Revealed Sunday After Wimbledon

Post by Lord Revan » 2017-07-16 03:21pm

TheFeniX wrote:
2017-07-16 02:17pm
"A woman Doctor, what an age..."
Broomstick wrote:
2017-07-16 01:04pm
Much depends on how the writing is done. For example, I though the treatment of Kate Stewart was largely excellent. Really, her gender never mattered for that character, she could have be equally cast as a man with no or almost no change in the lines delivered by that character. If the new Doctor is treated in such a manner I believe all will be well.
I'm in the same boat. Though I only watched the show seriously during Eccleston's and Tennant's run, there's only been a few choice times he's been all that.... masculine, I guess.

His (or her, now) general irreverent antics combined with flashes of seriousness isn't exactly a gender specific thing. This is provided the writing is any good when there isn't a Y chromosome around. Honestly, Dr. Who's track record with writing for women seems a lot more sketchy than with men. So, I'm on the fence. I don't get the feeling the writers are..... "maliciously" sexist or anything (though I could be wrong), but more like they don't generally try to hard to separate a women from her gender and just write an interesting character. As said by others, this leads to "Female character" rather than "a character who is also female."
I think and you'll free to disagree with me the key to writing this new Doctor as "the doctor who happens to be female" rather then "the female Doctor" is to what the gender be irrelevant except when it shouldn't be due to the story and even when the story demands that the gender is noted it shouldn't be done more then is needed.

Utterly ignoring the fact that doctor is now female would be as bad as constantly pointing it out.
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Re: New Doctor Revealed Sunday After Wimbledon

Post by Iroscato » 2017-07-16 03:48pm

I'm fine if they have a bit of fun with it, IE have the Doctor stare agog in the mirror for a moment and exclaim "Well that's new!!" before getting down to the business of outsmarting whatever alien scum threatens Earth that episode. Beyond that, if they hammer it away every week it'll just come off as pandering.
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Re: New Doctor Revealed Sunday After Wimbledon

Post by TheFeniX » 2017-07-16 03:58pm

Lord Revan wrote:
2017-07-16 03:21pm
Utterly ignoring the fact that doctor is now female would be as bad as constantly pointing it out.
An apt quote I think is "the devil is in the details." Captain Sisko is one of my favorite characters of all time and outside some specific arcs not related to 24th century mentality, him being black is an aspect of the actor, not the character. Meanwhile, as already stated, Janeway (while Mulgrew, as always, does a fantastic job with what she's given) is constantly forced to remind the viewer that she's a woman. Even Seven of Nine, brought on near specifically for "fapbait" ends up being a better example on how to do it "right."

She's a woman, she's stupidly hot, they look for some excuses to get her as naked as possible, they make jokes about how inexperienced she is with male/female interactions. But a fair amount of her time, even most of the relationship stuff, is centered on her attempt to find her humanity not.... get her groove back. That's an important distinction for me. And it's probably why she's my second favorite (1st is of course.... The Doctor.. holy shit, I did not plan that. Promise.) character and 1 of 2 shining lights in an otherwise bland show.

Not to say it's all bad, Will Smith is constantly forced to remind us he's black in a majority of his movies and I love that guy.

The 10th Doctor being a man, outside some specific incidents, is pretty much irrelevant. I would laugh and feel just as hard if a woman was cast with his same generally mannerisms and delivery. Gender swap some companions or just add one some weird looks at the lesbian vibes for laughs. I can deal with that.

Though it did come off that way, so I'll reiterate: I don't want gender to be a non-issue, I've just seen how Dr. Who handles most of its female cast. Hell, I see how most TV/Movies handle female casts. It's generally not insulting, at least not to me, but they bat a much better average at letting men be "characters" while leaving a majority of women to be "female characters."

But if we get another 7 of 9 situation, yea I'm cool with that.

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Re: New Doctor Revealed Sunday After Wimbledon

Post by Crazedwraith » 2017-07-16 04:16pm

All I can think of right now is Korra's first scene in Legend Of Korra.

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Re: New Doctor Revealed Sunday After Wimbledon

Post by Lord Revan » 2017-07-16 06:20pm

Speaking of Korra I think she is for the most part a decent example of how write a hero who happens to be female rather then a female hero. Apart from the times them the story focused on her relationships, what mattered most was that Korra was the Avatar not the fact she was a girl.
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Re: New Doctor Revealed Sunday After Wimbledon

Post by Steve » 2017-07-16 08:30pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
2017-07-16 04:16pm
All I can think of right now is Korra's first scene in Legend Of Korra.

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Re: New Doctor Revealed Sunday After Wimbledon

Post by Batman » 2017-07-16 08:35pm

Steve wrote:
2017-07-16 08:30pm
Crazedwraith wrote:
2017-07-16 04:16pm
All I can think of right now is Korra's first scene in Legend Of Korra.
"I'm the Avatar! You gotta Deal with it!"
I give this post my sincere approval.
Seconded
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Re: New Doctor Revealed Sunday After Wimbledon

Post by Q99 » 2017-07-16 11:30pm

My big surprise is it's an actress I know, and that they actually went through with it.


Attack the Block already showed she can handle running from aliens.

And it's about time*!


*Time travel pun

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Re: New Doctor Revealed Sunday After Wimbledon

Post by Q99 » 2017-07-17 12:05am

Oh yea, on gender-

I don't think one should aim for 'gender blind' characters, but rather character should be informed by their gender/race/etc. rather than dictated by. It does not define them but is part of them, if that makes sense.

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Re: New Doctor Revealed Sunday After Wimbledon

Post by SpottedKitty » 2017-07-17 02:15am

If Thirteen's first appearance goes anything like a DW fanfic I read once, I'll :lol: :lol: :lol:

(For the morbidly curious; the Doctor regenerates into little-known actress and nearly forgotten one-hit-pop-wonder Rose Tyler — and promptly doesn't notice what happened until halfway through the first episode...)
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Re: New Doctor Revealed Sunday After Wimbledon

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-07-17 07:00pm

ray245 wrote:
2017-07-16 12:59pm
Hmm interesting. I would have thought they would go for an older female Doctor.
That might have been better, both because if there is a deficit of good roles for women, there is an even bigger deficit of good roles for older women, and because it would reduce the chances of sexual objectification.

That said, I am strongly in support of this choice. I'll repost something I put up elsewhere (with minor editing), because I can't be arsed to rewrite it. :wink:

Thoughts on the casting of Jodie Whittaker as the 13th. Doctor:

Casting a woman as the Doctor is the right decision. As a matter of simple fairness, there is no justification for continuing to deny women a chance at such a wonderful and iconic role when their is a deficit of well-written, compelling roles for women, not when the premise of the show, and the well-established plot device of regeneration, makes Doctor Who perhaps uniquely suited to incorporating such a change within the existing canon. Politically, it makes a strong statement against the bigotry and despotism of our time, and on which is entirely in keeping with the prevailing themes of the series., which has survived and thrived for over fifty years, in large part, due to its willingness to explore new possibilities, and to constantly reinvent itself. Indeed, one of my primary criticisms of Doctor Who, particularly in recent years, is its tendency to too-often stay inside the box, rather than take fuller advantage of the nearly limitless narrative potential of its premise. Moreover, in part because of its history of periodically reinventing its protagonist, it has become, in part, a series about the nature of identity. If your face, your body, your very personality changes, are you still you? What is it that defines who you really are? A female Doctor will allow the series to explore these questions in new ways.

Could it go badly? Of course. There are innumerable ways that this could fail I imagine hack writers reducing my beloved Doctor to the butt of jokes or the subject of constant sexual objectification, or making well-meaning but ham-fisted or otherwise botched attempts at political messaging (something which can be done well, but which Who has tended to botch in recent years, in my opinion). Or a backlash from fans who prefer the status quo, or falling ratings due to unrelated reasons, being blamed on the new Doctor. The presence of a new Head Writer incoming is grounds for optimism, but also for concern, because they are still untested in their new role, and will have to handle this change alongside many others. But as cliché as it may be, it is true that great things are rarely, if ever, accomplished without risk, and Doctor Who has faced similar risks before. They've recast the Doctor thirteen times to date, counting the late, great John Hurt's War Doctor, and the series has not only survived it, it has survived, in part, because of it. This is absolutely the right, and arguably necessary, creative decision. And would be even if they hadn't been foreshadowing it for the last decade.
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Re: New Doctor Revealed Sunday After Wimbledon

Post by Joun_Lord » 2017-07-17 07:13pm

Attack the Block is apparently the gift that keeps on giving. It helps that the entire cast was fantastic.

Why I'm mostly okay with the casting. Whittaker is an excellent choice not based on her gender but on her acting ability. I've always said that should be the primary motivator for things like this. However more then a few people are going to say she was only hired based on her gender, because the bosses of Who wanted a female Doctor or Bust (there is a pun in there somewhere). Might burn long time fans who might already think politics is taking over the show at the expense of the writing. I hope people will give her a chance even if it was politics that were at work in her hiring because even so she's still a fantastic actress.

The real question is how they are going to play it. Are they going to make 13's gender a thing, throw it in everyones face or not? I hope not and with the treatment of Missy who right down to the sexual tension with the Doctor could have been played by a man (even if they made the sexual tension far more obvious, like sledgehammer over the head obvious).While I was initially iffy about Missy she turned out to be one of the few good things about more recent Who, she was written pretty darn good. Now one could make the argument she was barely the Master anymore, more or less a new character that we were told was the Master with a few Master-ish traits thrown in but its not like the Master has remained consistent through all his incarnations. The Simms Master couldn't be any different from the Delgado Master, especially the manic Obama people eater Master.

All the Doctors themselves have been pretty distinctive. Quite often they do feel like different people with the same name, kinda are. Just the differences between Capaldi and Smith Doctors are great to say nothing of some of the other more unique Doctors. So having a Doctor who is different isn't a bad thing if they don't write the new Doctor different by going "lol imma woman". But again I don't think they will, I hope they won't.

My real concern is just the writing in general, the companions being extra special shits, random characters being better at being the Doctor then the Doctor. The writing just hasn't grabbed me and that sucks because both Capaldi and Mackie are excellent actors and have good chemistry but it feels wasted, the stories are sub-par, it has the same problems that the Clara era had about just not being all that enjoyable.

I fear Capaldi will be remembed as one of the less well liked Doctors because of how tired the show was during his run, how for atleast some fans its stopped being fun. That Mackie will probably be just a forgotten Companion or remembered for less then ideal reasons. And thats a goddamn shame because both put in their all, just the writers didn't do their part.

With Whittaker she is coming in for a relatively clean slate, new head writer and all, so hopefully its a chance for a soft reboot that allows the show to be fun again. And I'll give it a chance, me the ultimate arbitrator of whats good and whats stinky, just as I gave things like the Capaldi Doctor and Stargate Universe a chance. Hopefully like my last computer chair they don't let me down. Because that fucking hurt.

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Re: New Doctor Revealed Sunday After Wimbledon

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-07-17 07:49pm

Joun_Lord wrote:
2017-07-17 07:13pm
Attack the Block is apparently the gift that keeps on giving. It helps that the entire cast was fantastic.

Why I'm mostly okay with the casting. Whittaker is an excellent choice not based on her gender but on her acting ability. I've always said that should be the primary motivator for things like this. However more then a few people are going to say she was only hired based on her gender, because the bosses of Who wanted a female Doctor or Bust (there is a pun in there somewhere). Might burn long time fans who might already think politics is taking over the show at the expense of the writing. I hope people will give her a chance even if it was politics that were at work in her hiring because even so she's still a fantastic actress.
Oh, I'm already seeing whining all over the place about how this was just done for no reason, just to have a woman. With the obvious underlying implication of "Of course a woman could never actually get the role on merit".

But while I don't doubt that the show runners wanted a female Doctor (with good reason, see my previous post), who the hell cares, if she can play the part well?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Whatever the quality of the writing, their has never been a bad actor as the Doctor.

I do not expect that streak to be broken now.
The real question is how they are going to play it. Are they going to make 13's gender a thing, throw it in everyones face or not? I hope not and with the treatment of Missy who right down to the sexual tension with the Doctor could have been played by a man (even if they made the sexual tension far more obvious, like sledgehammer over the head obvious).While I was initially iffy about Missy she turned out to be one of the few good things about more recent Who, she was written pretty darn good. Now one could make the argument she was barely the Master anymore, more or less a new character that we were told was the Master with a few Master-ish traits thrown in but its not like the Master has remained consistent through all his incarnations. The Simms Master couldn't be any different from the Delgado Master, especially the manic Obama people eater Master.
They can't simply ignore her gender altogether- if nothing else, it will affect how some others interact with her.

But at the same time, that's not fundamentally so different from any regeneration. The Doctor changes. Those changes are acknowledged. But they are still, ultimately, the Doctor.
All the Doctors themselves have been pretty distinctive. Quite often they do feel like different people with the same name, kinda are. Just the differences between Capaldi and Smith Doctors are great to say nothing of some of the other more unique Doctors. So having a Doctor who is different isn't a bad thing if they don't write the new Doctor different by going "lol imma woman". But again I don't think they will, I hope they won't.

My real concern is just the writing in general, the companions being extra special shits, random characters being better at being the Doctor then the Doctor. The writing just hasn't grabbed me and that sucks because both Capaldi and Mackie are excellent actors and have good chemistry but it feels wasted, the stories are sub-par, it has the same problems that the Clara era had about just not being all that enjoyable.
I mostly agree with this.
I fear Capaldi will be remembed as one of the less well liked Doctors because of how tired the show was during his run, how for atleast some fans its stopped being fun. That Mackie will probably be just a forgotten Companion or remembered for less then ideal reasons. And thats a goddamn shame because both put in their all, just the writers didn't do their part.
I think Capaldi will be remembered well, at least in time. He's a damn fine actor. I expect he'll be seen by fans in much the same light as Colin Baker seems to be- good actor unfairly undermined by shit writing. Though I don't think his era will be regarded as badly as Baker's, either.

Bill might get largely lost in the crowd due to the briefness of her run (fuck you Moffat). Which sucks. Really, really sucks. She deserved two seasons minimum, especially when Moffat's obsession, Clara, got more than two and a half despite oscillating between generic and unlikeable most of the time (again, no fault of the actor who played her).

Which is why, despite normally disliking the "Bring back X" crowd of fans, I am strongly in the "Bring back Bill" camp, for the same reason I'm in the "Bring back Eight" and "Bring back Jenny" camps- unfairly wasted potential.
With Whittaker she is coming in for a relatively clean slate, new head writer and all, so hopefully its a chance for a soft reboot that allows the show to be fun again. And I'll give it a chance, me the ultimate arbitrator of whats good and whats stinky, just as I gave things like the Capaldi Doctor and Stargate Universe a chance. Hopefully like my last computer chair they don't let me down. Because that fucking hurt.
Doctor Who soft reboots, sort of, with every regeneration. And somehow mostly makes it work, despite my usual misgivings about half-assing a reboot. Probably because they've found a way to work it more or less naturally into the continuity (such as it is) of the series.
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Re: New Doctor Revealed Sunday After Wimbledon

Post by Q99 » 2017-07-18 01:29am

Oh, they set up a nice hotline!


I've always found "Sure, they can do a (group) in the role of (character), but only if they can find someone good enough!" qualifiers silly too. The talent pool of women/black/etc. actors is both huge and less tapped than the one for white male actors, it's actually the easier way to find quality talent?

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Re: New Doctor Revealed Sunday After Wimbledon

Post by mr friendly guy » 2017-07-18 07:22am

It might have bothered me a decade ago as a "traditionalist," (and I use that term loosely, keeping in mind the woman doctor was a joke concocted by Tom Baker and John Nathan Turner in the 1980s), but now I wouldn't care less as long as the writing improves. Most probably will check it out though.

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On another note, its funny I see people on youtube arguing its not canon. On further clarification it appears to be not classical series canon. :lol:

And some of these people have argued we are going to get a black doctor next and its pandering to SJWs and overriding canon, I am going to point out its been established in the classical series that Time Lords can regenerate from a white man to black man. Cookies for those who list the storyline and which episode. :D
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Re: New Doctor Revealed Sunday After Wimbledon

Post by Q99 » 2017-07-18 08:00am

Colin Baker chips in- he's totally for her!

I have always found that problematical, not in the world we live in, but in the world the characters live in, particularly the Doctor’s world. The world we live in has a history of male domination, of stereotyping, of resistance to change, of playing it safe. Doctor Who has never been about that. The Doctor in all his incarnations has always been a passionate defender of justice, equality, fairness and resisted those who seek to dominate or destroy.

----
I have repeatedly stated publicly that I personally would not just welcome but expect a female doctor, but that I doubted the courage of the decision-makers at the BBC to allow a showrunner to explore the exciting opportunities afforded by such brave and game-changing casting. Clearly I was wrong and I congratulate Chris Chibnall, the incoming executive producer and writer, on succeeding where others may have failed or maybe not even tried. What is doubly encouraging is the fact he has very long track record of writing good strong parts for men and women alike, including the new Doctor, Jodie Whittaker, who was superb in Broadchurch (written by Chibnall).
And the best line:

'Let’s hope the disgruntled can be convinced in the end. But if we do lose some fans we will gain many more when it’s not just little boys in the playground (or bigger boys in the acting profession) saying: “I want to be the Doctor one day.” '

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Re: New Doctor Revealed Sunday After Wimbledon

Post by Crazedwraith » 2017-07-18 08:12am

Very thoughtful and well stated.
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Re: New Doctor Revealed Sunday After Wimbledon

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-07-19 03:42pm

And on the opposite end of the class scale from Colin Baker, apparently a bunch of British tabloids, including the Daily Mail, decided to "honor" the occasion by publishing nude photos of Jodie Whittaker... :banghead:
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Re: New Doctor Revealed Sunday After Wimbledon

Post by Lord Revan » 2017-07-19 05:15pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2017-07-19 03:42pm
And on the opposite end of the class scale from Colin Baker, apparently a bunch of British tabloids, including the Daily Mail, decided to "honor" the occasion by publishing nude photos of Jodie Whittaker... :banghead:
they're tabloids, only time "class" should be mentioned in the context of them is when talking about the kindergraden (or what ever is the british equilevant) class the editor of those magazines flunked from.
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Re: New Doctor Revealed Sunday After Wimbledon

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-07-29 06:46pm

Comments from former Doctors over the years, and since the announcement, on the subject of a female Doctor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGSi5iDcaDA
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"Trump admirers like @TuckerCarlson describe themselves as "nationalist." But their nationalism attaches not to the multiracial American nation... but to a multinational white race with a capital in Moscow"-David Frum

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Re: New Doctor Revealed Sunday After Wimbledon

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-07-29 06:59pm

Too late to edit...

Okay, that last tweet (from the video) was beautiful.

"No man could ever replace Peter Capaldi." :lol:
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"Trump admirers like @TuckerCarlson describe themselves as "nationalist." But their nationalism attaches not to the multiracial American nation... but to a multinational white race with a capital in Moscow"-David Frum

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