Doctor Who S36E12: The Doctor Falls (spoilers)

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What did you think of the episode?

5/5
8
44%
4/5
7
39%
3/5
0
No votes
2/5
0
No votes
1/5
3
17%
 
Total votes: 18

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Re: Doctor Who S36E12: The Doctor Falls (spoilers)

Post by madd0ct0r » 2017-07-03 02:56pm

bilateralrope wrote:Missey and The Master killing each other was good. The Master using a weapon that he claims will prevent regeneration was not. Is Moffat really expecting future authors to never want to use a future regeneration of The Master ?

The two other big things that annoyed me were:
- Adding the fully metal cybermen.
- Water girl being someone else that can easily fly the TARDIS. Probably better than the Doctor because she didn't have any trouble around a black hole.
fully metal cybermen - that's just the convergent evolution thing though isn't it?

Water girl being able to fly it annoyed me too. Tardis around blackhole gets a pass though - "Gravity schamivity, my people invented it" as the tardiss toes a massive ship out of a black hole a few years back.
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Re: Doctor Who S36E12: The Doctor Falls (spoilers)

Post by Solauren » 2017-07-03 03:05pm

madd0ct0r wrote:
bilateralrope wrote:Missey and The Master killing each other was good. The Master using a weapon that he claims will prevent regeneration was not. Is Moffat really expecting future authors to never want to use a future regeneration of The Master ?

The two other big things that annoyed me were:
- Adding the fully metal cybermen.
- Water girl being someone else that can easily fly the TARDIS. Probably better than the Doctor because she didn't have any trouble around a black hole.
fully metal cybermen - that's just the convergent evolution thing though isn't it?

Water girl being able to fly it annoyed me too. Tardis around blackhole gets a pass though - "Gravity schamivity, my people invented it" as the tardiss toes a massive ship out of a black hole a few years back.

For all we know Water Girl is the end point technological evolution of the TARDIS, and it was like taking her technological equal of a dog for a walk.
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Re: Doctor Who S36E12: The Doctor Falls (spoilers)

Post by NecronLord » 2017-07-03 04:24pm

I did dislike the evolution of the cybermen, I honestly think it would have been good with a few menacing cybermen - that would walk silently like they do in Tenth Planet! - demolishing the farm and its defences, than the whole pile of them we got.
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Re: Doctor Who S36E12: The Doctor Falls (spoilers)

Post by Enigma » 2017-07-03 04:50pm

For all we know, Missy may have messed with The Master's "sonic" screwdriver (or whatever it is called) so that she doesn't get the full dose.
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Re: Doctor Who S36E12: The Doctor Falls (spoilers)

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-07-03 05:04pm

Enigma wrote:For all we know, Missy may have messed with The Master's "sonic" screwdriver (or whatever it is called) so that she doesn't get the full dose.
Funnily enough I was just about to comment saying something like that. Strikes me as being a simple enough thing to do, especially since she also solved the dematerialisation circuit (also, good call back to Three's era) problem in a similar way.

Incidentally, Time Lord's life spans seem to contain a lot of stable time loops, this is now the third occasion I can think of where the Doctor or the Master has solved a problem because they (in a younger incarnation) remember seeing themselves solve it.

No wonder Eleven described his timeline as scar tissue on the universe.
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Re: Doctor Who S36E12: The Doctor Falls (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-07-03 06:37pm

Enigma wrote:For all we know, Missy may have messed with The Master's "sonic" screwdriver (or whatever it is called) so that she doesn't get the full dose.
Yeah, rather hard to sucker punch someone when they're your future self, even accounting for memory loss between regenerations/timelines and so forth. :D

And of course, its pointless to try to convince the audience that this is really the end of the Master. Of course he/she will come back.

About the girl Bill went off with at the end- what was that? I got the sense that she was supposed to be the ghost of some lover of Bill's or something like that, but I also get the impression that I'm missing a lot of context, since I only saw about three or four episodes this season.

And its rather telling that that was enough time to make Bill possibly one of my three favourite major new series Companions, along with Martha (AKA The Mature Adult) and Rory (AKA His Badassness)- more due to the skill of the actor than the quality of the writing (that and it was refreshing to have a Companion that didn't check every box on the "generic Who Companion checklist", like Clara did).
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Re: Doctor Who S36E12: The Doctor Falls (spoilers)

Post by JLTucker » 2017-07-03 07:35pm

TRR: It's a cal back to the season premiere where that girl became part of an alien community that does stuff with water. I can't remember the specifics.

On another note, wtf. Why would you even watch the finale when not seeing the other eps? We know Moffat does a lot of callbacks to previous episodes.

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Re: Doctor Who S36E12: The Doctor Falls (spoilers)

Post by Enigma » 2017-07-03 09:22pm

I'd like to know why was Bill so afraid of Missy when she barely interacted with her?
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Re: Doctor Who S36E12: The Doctor Falls (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-07-04 10:57am

JLTucker wrote:TRR: It's a cal back to the season premiere where that girl became part of an alien community that does stuff with water. I can't remember the specifics.
Okay, that makes sense. Sort of. By Moffat standards. :wink:
On another note, wtf. Why would you even watch the finale when not seeing the other eps? We know Moffat does a lot of callbacks to previous episodes.
I watched it because I wanted to, because I wasn't likely to get another chance to soon, and because I feel that, while callbacks are all well and fine, a good work of fiction should generally be able to stand on its own somewhat, even if having more knowledge of the background will give you a deeper appreciation of it.
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Re: Doctor Who S36E12: The Doctor Falls (spoilers)

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-07-04 12:26pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
I watched it because I wanted to, because I wasn't likely to get another chance to soon, and because I feel that, while callbacks are all well and fine, a good work of fiction should generally be able to stand on its own somewhat, even if having more knowledge of the background will give you a deeper appreciation of it.
That doesn't really work when applied to a finale of a series that has significant continuity between episodes. A series with stand-alone episodes like, say, Red Dwarf or Futurama or even classic Who (to an extent) can be watched like that, nuWho with it's season-long arcs and such can't.

Sure, you can apply it to certain episodes within the season (Eaters of Light, Empress of Mars, Oxygen, Smile etc from this season can probably be watched without needing to have seen other episodes this season) but the first/last episodes of a season, especially when the finale is part 2 of 2, is a poor choice to watch without seeing other stuff first.
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Re: Doctor Who S36E12: The Doctor Falls (spoilers)

Post by Bedlam » 2017-07-04 01:43pm

Enigma wrote:I'd like to know why was Bill so afraid of Missy when she barely interacted with her?
There first meeting in the vault where Missy talked about pushing a little girl into a volcano and told Bill that the best way for her to save the world was to be lobotomised might not have gotten the two of them off to the best start.

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Re: Doctor Who S36E12: The Doctor Falls (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-07-04 01:50pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:
I watched it because I wanted to, because I wasn't likely to get another chance to soon, and because I feel that, while callbacks are all well and fine, a good work of fiction should generally be able to stand on its own somewhat, even if having more knowledge of the background will give you a deeper appreciation of it.
That doesn't really work when applied to a finale of a series that has significant continuity between episodes. A series with stand-alone episodes like, say, Red Dwarf or Futurama or even classic Who (to an extent) can be watched like that, nuWho with it's season-long arcs and such can't.

Sure, you can apply it to certain episodes within the season (Eaters of Light, Empress of Mars, Oxygen, Smile etc from this season can probably be watched without needing to have seen other episodes this season) but the first/last episodes of a season, especially when the finale is part 2 of 2, is a poor choice to watch without seeing other stuff first.
I see the point, but...

I'll give you an example:

When I started watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I started with reruns near the end of season five. It took a while to grow on me, but now its one of my favourite shows. Sure, I knew a little bit about the show going in, but I was able to pick up enough, and the execution of it was entertaining enough, to keep me coming back. It didn't matter that I didn't know the context of everything that was happening- the show was engaging enough to keep me watching.

I'd also say that one should, if practical, watch an arc-based show in order. I don't disagree. But quality will show, even if you come in half-way through.
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Re: Doctor Who S36E12: The Doctor Falls (spoilers)

Post by Tribble » 2017-07-04 03:34pm

Well, I called half of it - I suspected Missy was going to be the one to off Simm's Master, but I wasn't expecting him to shoot her in the back too. I wonder if her decision to join the Doctor will carry over to the next version? And if so, how the Doctor will react, seeing as last he saw her she had decided against joining him?
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Re: Doctor Who S36E12: The Doctor Falls (spoilers)

Post by DaveJB » 2017-07-04 04:58pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:When I started watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I started with reruns near the end of season five. It took a while to grow on me, but now its one of my favourite shows. Sure, I knew a little bit about the show going in, but I was able to pick up enough, and the execution of it was entertaining enough, to keep me coming back. It didn't matter that I didn't know the context of everything that was happening- the show was engaging enough to keep me watching.
As scary as it sounds to write this, Buffy was made twenty years ago. Back then TV drama generally tended to be written in such a way where there was a broad story arc to the show, but most episodes could be watched in isolation, or out of order, without any major detrimental effects. Things are different now - more often than not, missing even a single episode of a modern-day TV drama will put you hopelessly out of the loop with regards to the overall storyline of the show.

If anything, Doctor Who is actually much nearer the likes of Buffy, Babylon 5 and Star Trek DS9, in that while there's a story arc to each season, there's probably not more than about a third (if that) of the episodes in any given season that actually require you watch them in the correct order.

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Re: Doctor Who S36E12: The Doctor Falls (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-07-04 06:06pm

Buffy isn't really on-topic (just a convenient example I'm familiar with), but I'd say that while early Buffy was like what you describe, late Buffy (and the spin-off, Angel, even more so) was very heavily arc-based.

Putting it in the same category as Who here is probably correct though, particularly as Buffy is often cited as an inspiration for modern Who.

For a more modern show- I don't regularly watch Game of Thrones, because I don't get HBO, though I'm able to follow the overall storyline somewhat through online discussions and summaries. But I am still able to enjoy it whenever I see an episode, or part of an episode, or even just a clip. But to me, the strength of GoT is in its acting and the artistic and technical skill with which it is produced, more than the writing.

And that's my point. A well-made show will still be worth watching even if you haven't seen the whole preceding series, though a viewer who has will almost certainly get more out of it.
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Re: Doctor Who S36E12: The Doctor Falls (spoilers)

Post by Bedlam » 2017-07-05 05:14pm

Thinking about why the Doctor is so against regenerating, maybe its something to do with why Time Lords normally have a limited number of regenerations. Maybe each regeneration is a blow to their minds and they can normally only take so much before they break down. The Doctors now over than normal limit so more regenerations are harder and harder on him.

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Re: Doctor Who S36E12: The Doctor Falls (spoilers)

Post by Dartzap » 2017-07-06 03:21am

He also broke his promise to not get Bill killed, as well as protecting the vault being a less than stellar success. He's been trying to commit himself to a good death in a number of episodes as well. He's old and worn out in a universe that needs him as a balance point

Think of him as an older, wiser more blood stained Anakin seeking redemption for his sins, and his ultimate punishment is to carry on living with his guilt.

He's handed down that sentence himself a few times. Seems appropriate.
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Re: Doctor Who S36E12: The Doctor Falls (spoilers)

Post by jwl » 2017-07-06 05:44am

DaveJB wrote:
Bedlam wrote:The final bit, well I don't see why this version of the doctor is so suicidal and / or afraid of moving on. Has he previously been shown to be so clingy?
Ten wasted a whole regeneration just because he didn't want to change his appearance and personality; Twelve's little freakout is nothing by comparison. :P

Going back to the classic series, Four clearly wasn't too pleased about the prospect of an imminent regeneration, but by the time it actually happened there wasn't a whole lot he could have to to prevent it, seeing how he'd just been dropped 200ft from a radio telescope. And it just so happens that One was originally scripted to spend his final moments refusing to give in to his imminent regeneration, but there wasn't time enough to record the line, which ended up completely altering the mood of his regeneration scene. Makes me wonder if Moffat found out this little tidbit, and decided to make an entire episode around it.
Ten didn't waste a regeneration doing that, he would have regenerated regardless, he just made this particular regeneration turn into himself. That said their is a qualitative difference between ten's reluctance and twelve's. Ten refused to change face because of "vanity" and attachment to the current incarnation, twelve looks like he is doing so because he is fed up of regenerating in general. Knowing moffat, I wouldn't be surprised if next episode he goes back and prevents himself from having ever changed face, and his history changes so all doctor appearances up till now have been Hartnell's doctor.
bilateralrope wrote:Missey and The Master killing each other was good. The Master using a weapon that he claims will prevent regeneration was not. Is Moffat really expecting future authors to never want to use a future regeneration of The Master ?

The two other big things that annoyed me were:
- Adding the fully metal cybermen.
- Water girl being someone else that can easily fly the TARDIS. Probably better than the Doctor because she didn't have any trouble around a black hole.
According to moffat (in DWM I think), every master story should preferably end with him dying, and the next master episode should include him coming back again with no explanation of how he got out of it last time. He broke that rule this episode though, since he did explain how Simm's Master got out of Gallifrey.

In terms of the water girl flying the TARDIS out of the black hole, the doctor never said he would have a problem with that, he just said he would have a problem landing it further up (the master would have been fine leaving too with a spare circuit). Presumably when he landed it there to start with it was either by getting lucky or locking onto the distress signal. In relation to what someone else said in this, I thought about the impossible planet too, but that was in a much less severe time dilation gradient by the looks of it, that might have had something to do with it.

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Re: Doctor Who S36E12: The Doctor Falls (spoilers)

Post by Tribble » 2017-07-08 10:37pm

Just 'cause no one's said it yet...

I guess you could say in this episode we saw some Master-bation? :P
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Re: Doctor Who S36E12: The Doctor Falls (spoilers)

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-07-09 08:07am

Tribble wrote:
2017-07-08 10:37pm
Just 'cause no one's said it yet...

I guess you could say in this episode we saw some Master-bation? :P
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Re: Doctor Who S36E12: The Doctor Falls (spoilers)

Post by Bernkastel » 2017-07-09 09:49am

Tribble wrote:
2017-07-08 10:37pm
Just 'cause no one's said it yet...

I guess you could say in this episode we saw some Master-bation? :P
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Re: Doctor Who S36E12: The Doctor Falls (spoilers)

Post by Tribble » 2017-07-23 01:25pm

Almost necroiing this thread, but after re-watching the episode I was wondering if the Doctor knew of Missy's plans? Because it seems as though that when she grabbed the Doctor's hand she might have shown him the knife.
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