What would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons (WH40K) entail?

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What would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons (WH40K) entail?

Post by SolarpunkFan »

I recalled a thread I had looked at years ago on SpaceBattles (I browsed both it and these forums long before I joined here) in which a hypothetical scenario was posited in which the Eye of Terror is replaced with Borg space. With the Borg setting their sites on Cadia. The thread in question is located here.

Now, I'm somewhat familiar with Star Trek, but a lot less so with WH40K, and naturally my interest was piqued by this post:
Also. If the Borg are very lucky and make it into orbit, and then set about tearing up the landscape, not only will they have the Imperium to deal with, but it's likely the necrons on Cadia will intervene on humanity's side again.
And its response:
Oh those poor cybernetic bastards....

So I'm really curious now. I guess the best way I can phrase my question is: what would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons entail? Just how royally screwed are the Borg or Necrons in this scenario?

Also: the linked thread features a certain Borg-fanboy named "Mith" who visited this site briefly as well. Naturally his wankery gets torn to shreds there too. 8)
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Re: What would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons (WH40K) entail?

Post by Juubi Karakuchi »

WH40K scenarios are inevitably tricky, due to all the inconsistencies in the source material and a lack of hard quantificatons. This seems to be a deliberate approach on the part of Games Workshop; perhaps using the Unreliable Narrator narrative device, or because they can't be bothered to enforce consistency to the level Versus Debaters tend to want. An example is that Imperial cruisers were generally thought to be around three kilometres long (based on a description in Gordon Rennie's 'Execution Hour'), while some debaters argued they were much smaller, and GW eventually set them at five kilometres long in the Rogue Trader RPG books. That said, the sheer amount of written background material allows preponderance of the evidence to come into play. Connor Mcleod has done yeoman service analysing it over the years, as can be found in the Grand 40k Sticky.

Necrons are also difficult because their capabilities haven't been described in the same kind of depth as, say, the Imperial forces (who the primary protagonists in 40k background material). They have also had a rather controversial rehash for the 5th Edition, in which the role of the C'tan has been significantly altered and the Necrons themselves actually granted a culture. Personally I liked the rehash, others hated it. For this stage of the analysis, I'm going to avoid the comparatively rare, high-level stuff like the C'tan shards and the Celestial Orrery. I don't have all day.

Individual Necrons are essentially androids with bodies made of 'living metal', with varying levels of physical and mental capability. Low-ranking Necrons were granted relatively simple bodies, meaning that they retained little sense of self, whereas their nobles and dynastic lords recieved bodies so sophisticated that their memories and identities survived intact; though somewhat lacking in emotion. Their bodies are capable of self-repair, and will 'phase out' (aka teleport away) if too badly damaged to repair on the spot. Their primary weapon is the Gauss Flayer, which projects a 'molecular disassembling beam, reducing flesh, bone, and even armour to its constituent atoms' (7th Edition Codex, p. 113). Considering that Borg drones can be killed by particle beams, bullets (or at least the holographic variety) and blades, Gauss weapons should work well enough on them.

The first big question for a Borg vs Necron encounter is whether or not a drone's shields can resist Necron weaponry. Without a firepower calculation or any meaningful notion of how Borg shields work, I can't reliably answer this one. That said, that the crew of the USS Enterprise NX-01 were able to defeat Borg drones by overcharging their Phase pistols to a ten-megajoule output (Season 2: 'Regeneration'); so they should be able to overwhelm Borg drones by sheer weight of fire.

The next big question, and the one that will prey on a lot of minds, is whether or not Necrons can be assimilated. This depends on whether or not a drone can inject nanoprobes into a Necron if he gets close enough, and whether said nanoprobes can actually do anything. In the latter case, the Necrons' lack of a circulatory system is a major count against them; the Necrons have no bloodstream to move through, or cells to assimilate. That said, we've seen Borg drones interact with and seemingly assimilate technology ('Regeneration' once again). But this could be explained by the drone hacking the system rather than pumping nanoprobes into it. But then again the question arises; can a drone not hack a Necron in the same manner? I have no answer.

A bigger and more important question is how their ships compare. The only information on Necron fleets comes from Battlefleet Gothic, and was done based on the 3rd Edition version. I'm not entirely sure the Necrons currently possess starships, as I don't know of any descriptions based on the current version. These days the Necrons use Dolmen Gates to forcibly access the Eldar Webway, so they might not necessarily need them. That said, their current 'attack craft' are the Night Scythe and its variant, the Doom Scythe. The Night Scythe doubles as a mobile teleporter, carrying a Wormhole portal to deploy troops. The Doom Scythe carries a 'Death Ray' instead, reputedly allowing a full squadron to reduce a hive city to 'fulminated slag' in less than an hour. This is not looking good for the Borg.
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Re: What would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons (WH40K) entail?

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Necron fleets are, by the fluff (which in the current part of the setting hasn't changed a huge amount) utterly lethal to 40K level ships. I recall one mention in the 3rd edition Necron Codex (which related to 40K-era events, so again not changed) that recounts a Tombship blowing an Imperial cruiser in half with a single shot. Plus the fact that five Necron light cruisers breached the defences around Mars (the second most heavily guarded planet in the Imperium, after Terra, and a major Fleet base) with one of them surviving long enough to land on the surface.

Yeah, space-combat-wise the Necrons utterly outclass pretty much everyone else in the 40K setting, which as a whole utterly outclasses anything from ST. On the ground it's even worse, as they like to move around a lot, which will fuck up the Borg approach of "march forwards to assimilate things" quite effectively. And that's without including some of their more exotic units, like the aforementioend C'Tan Shards and the nasty thing called an Aeonic Orb (which is a spatially-compressed star that vents it's fury at the enemy).

I'm going with something like "The Borg encounter a Tomb World andthe initial Borg force is obliterated."

Given that the OP mentioned a scenario where the Eye of Terror is replaced by Borg space, this could actually be an amazingly good thing for the 40K setting. Chaos just got fucked over, replaced by an enemy tht they can fight much more effectively, though the Mechanicus may well shit themselves voer examining Borg cybernetics.
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Re: What would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons (WH40K) entail?

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Borg nanites can't follow a Necron that does its phase shift shuffle.
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Re: What would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons (WH40K) entail?

Post by SolarpunkFan »

Eternal_Freedom wrote:*Snip*
"Assimilies, have you ever seen a grown male drone scream?" :lol:

That's pretty amazing though. And getting Chaos out of the way would be an improvement for the IoM. One less enemy to fight! Or even two less if the Dark Eldar stop their shenanigans now that Slaanesh is gone.
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Re: What would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons (WH40K) entail?

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

SolarpunkFan wrote:
Eternal_Freedom wrote:*Snip*
"Assimilies, have you ever seen a grown male drone scream?" :lol:

That's pretty amazing though. And getting Chaos out of the way would be an improvement for the IoM. One less enemy to fight! Or even two less if the Dark Eldar stop their shenanigans now that Slaanesh is gone.
That actually brings to mind an interesting thought...if you showed an individual drone something terrifying enough, and that fact/image/whatever is shared with the Collective...could you make the entire Collective shit itself at once?

As for the serious point, I think that given what the OP said about the Eye of Terror being replaced with Borg space, Chaos et al. would still exist, but they've lost their main gateway into the material world. Warp travel will still be a bitch. Depending on what happens to the stuff in the Eye of Terror when this change occurs, it may also remove most or all of the Traitor Legions and Daemon Primarchs, which is very good news. It may also royally piss off the Eldar, since the Eye contained most of their lost worlds.

On the (even more) plus side for the Imperium, they now have the 30-40 plus Space Marine Chapters founded solely to help guard the Eye free to go Borg hunting. 35,000+ very angry and well-equipped Space Marines with perhaps 120 or more Battle Barges (40K capital ships, powerful ones to boot) plus escorts is no small force. Plus the unrivaled tactical genius of Castellan Creed (sorry, CREEEEEEED!) on Cadia to back them up.
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Re: What would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons (WH40K) entail?

Post by SolarpunkFan »

Eternal_Freedom wrote:That actually brings to mind an interesting thought...if you showed an individual drone something terrifying enough, and that fact/image/whatever is shared with the Collective...could you make the entire Collective shit itself at once?

As for the serious point, I think that given what the OP said about the Eye of Terror being replaced with Borg space, Chaos et al. would still exist, but they've lost their main gateway into the material world. Warp travel will still be a bitch. Depending on what happens to the stuff in the Eye of Terror when this change occurs, it may also remove most or all of the Traitor Legions and Daemon Primarchs, which is very good news. It may also royally piss off the Eldar, since the Eye contained most of their lost worlds.

On the (even more) plus side for the Imperium, they now have the 30-40 plus Space Marine Chapters founded solely to help guard the Eye free to go Borg hunting. 35,000+ very angry and well-equipped Space Marines with perhaps 120 or more Battle Barges (40K capital ships, powerful ones to boot) plus escorts is no small force. Plus the unrivaled tactical genius of Castellan Creed (sorry, CREEEEEEED!) on Cadia to back them up.
I don't think the Collective in total will as (if the FC novelization is to be believed) the drones have their original personalities locked down (which is hellish for the people "trapped" inside).

But the Borg Queen... maybe she'll faint? :P

Also moving to the serious point: sounds like this might make for an entertaining fanfic. Though I'll have to get a lot better than my current scribblings to do the concept justice.
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Re: What would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons (WH40K) entail?

Post by bilateralrope »

Juubi Karakuchi wrote:The first big question for a Borg vs Necron encounter is whether or not a drone's shields can resist Necron weaponry.
If the Borg shields can, that just moves the fight to melee range. I can't see the Borg doing well in melee against anyone in 40K
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Re: What would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons (WH40K) entail?

Post by Q99 »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Borg nanites can't follow a Necron that does its phase shift shuffle.

It also strikes me that living metal won't be the easiest thing to assimilate to begin with. It's basically like nanotech itself, and it may have some level of active defense to small scale takeover.

So the Necrons are really well suited to blowing up Borg and being hard to take in return.
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Re: What would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons (WH40K) entail?

Post by NecronLord »

Juubi Karakuchi wrote:A bigger and more important question is how their ships compare. The only information on Necron fleets comes from Battlefleet Gothic, and was done based on the 3rd Edition version. I'm not entirely sure the Necrons currently possess starships, as I don't know of any descriptions based on the current version. These days the Necrons use Dolmen Gates to forcibly access the Eldar Webway, so they might not necessarily need them. That said, their current 'attack craft' are the Night Scythe and its variant, the Doom Scythe. The Night Scythe doubles as a mobile teleporter, carrying a Wormhole portal to deploy troops. The Doom Scythe carries a 'Death Ray' instead, reputedly allowing a full squadron to reduce a hive city to 'fulminated slag' in less than an hour. This is not looking good for the Borg.

The BFG period necron starfleet was confirmed as existing in the Shield of Ba'al books, where they appear.

They also have Inertialess drive in those, even though the previous codex (5th edition) disavowed its existance. Shield of Ba'al is more recent.

It's not just a slip, either, it's a key plot point that the necrons have inertialess drive and can ignore the problems caused by the tyranids in the warp.

Necron lore is a mess at present. Personally I reconcile it by mentally saying that inertialess drives are rare and were created by the C'tan, not the necrons, but there's no actual lore explaining why the latest sources say they do have them and the previous say they don't.

My full comments will follow.
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Re: What would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons (WH40K) entail?

Post by NecronLord »

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Plus the unrivaled tactical genius of Castellan Creed (sorry, CREEEEEEED!) on Cadia to back them up.
Admiral Quarren, commander of Battlefleet Cadia, is also excellent.
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Re: What would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons (WH40K) entail?

Post by NecronLord »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Borg nanites can't follow a Necron that does its phase shift shuffle.
Actually I would think that they can. The Imperium used a homing device shot into a necron to track it after it was teleported back to its tombs, for instance.
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Re: What would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons (WH40K) entail?

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

NecronLord wrote:
Eternal_Freedom wrote:Plus the unrivaled tactical genius of Castellan Creed (sorry, CREEEEEEED!) on Cadia to back them up.
Admiral Quarren, commander of Battlefleet Cadia, is also excellent.
I don't doubt it, but I'm more familiar with Creed's badassery (a nasty side-effect of reading 1d4chan). Battlefleet Cadia can join all those Space Marine forces in Borg hunting. Sweet :D
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Re: What would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons (WH40K) entail?

Post by NecronLord »

Canon

So, it's been nearly a decade since I posted in that thread on SB, but as it happens you just happen to have posted in the week when warhammer 40,000 lore is just about to wrap its biggest advancement in the history of the setting. As such, I'm going to give this the works.

I'm going to be talking about stuff up to the current (7th edition) batch of codexes without spoilers, as those have largely been out for years.

Things relating to the Gathering Storm trilogy, which has wrapped up Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade, will be in spoilers.

Methodology

I'll be following SciFights.net's hierarchical Vs criteria judgement in this. Sci-fights is a great site, and Brian's rational approach to what's important fits well with me.

Executive Summary of the Gathering Storm (Spoilers)
Spoiler
Hope is Back in the Grim Darkness - it's still pretty grim though. But the good guys (and I include the necrons in this!) are working together and the Imperium has made technical innovation legal, a major new faction of eldar have settled their differences with the Imperium somewhat, and are even looking to work with the necrons.

Trazyn the Eternal, a necron lord, saw the plight of the galaxy and, moved to help (partly for entertainment on his part), released several imperial heroes from his stasis-museum that he had captured over the Millennia, and led them to Cadia, where he tried to help the Imperium and Archmagos Cawl, one of the oldest of the Adeptus Mechanicus, use the Cadian Pylons to shut the Eye of Terror forever and therefore let the allies deny chaos its refuge and the benefits that come with easy daemon summoning.

Sadly for everyone, Trazyn's expertise is in history, not whatever necron super-science was used to construct the Pylons, and he seems to have miscalculated, with feedback from Abaddon's constant attacks destroying the Pylons and eventually Cadia itself.

Creed was mortally wounded in battle with Abaddon - who killed his lifelong friend Sergeant Kell too - before Celestine could rescue him. Celestine stabbed Abaddon and, wounded, Abaddon retreated by teleport.

Trazyn also fled, taking the mortally wounded Creed with him. It's not clear if Trazyn wants to preserve Creed for altruistic reasons, or if he's relapsed to his old ways and wants to put him on display somewhere.

Cadia exploded, and the surviving cadians - some few million - and their allies evacuated to one of the other planets in the system, where Abaddon's Black Legion closes in on all sides...

Image

Meanwhile, far across the galaxy Eldrad Ulthran began a ritual to bring forth Ynnead, the prophesyed Eldar God of the Dead, who would have the power to destroy Slaanesh utterly. This was thwarted by the Deathwatch - as it would also destroy the Imperium's ability to travel the warp - but a fraction of this god became active, and manifested itself by raising a prophet called Yvraine in Commoragh, where she was dying in the arena. The power of this momentary awakening shattered the wards in Commoragh and allowd daemons to invade it. Yvraine, Prophet of Ynnead escaped, converting many to her side on the way, while more traditional Dark Eldar try to contain the invasion - we're told that the dark eldar will reclaim their city, but a small myriad of them, particularly the lower class dark eldar have fled with Yvraine, because when they join her cult, they are freed from Slaanesh, and no longer feel the thirst for the suffering of others. Such is the power of the nascent god Ynnead.

They had many adventures which are somewhat tangenital, with portions of various craftworlds also joining with her - while others rejected it - and these eldar call themselves the Ynnari, or the Reborn, and their leaders have a fraction of the power of the God of the Dead. The truth of this religion is obvious when Yvraine finds that the Biel Tan craftworld is under siege and infestation by the powers of chaos, and draws forth a semi-daemonic avatar of Ynnead, which purges Biel Tan of the infestation, though the craftworld is devastated in the process.

The Ynnari can also give true awareness to wraith-constructs and in some cases, raise the dead.

The Ynnari know that to awken their god fully is impossible, for now, and they need time; they hold a council in the webway and determine that only way that the galaxy can be saved from chaos is if the Imperium of Man is reinvigorated. They head to where the survivors of the Cadian defenders are surrounded by Abaddon, and come to the rescue, kicking the tar out of the chaos followers long enough for the Imperials to evacuate.

Image

They've come for Cawl in particular, because the Ynnari know that the Imperium of Man can only be reinvigorated only by a major symbol of hope.

Long ago, after the Horus Heresy, Archmagos Cawl was commissioned to build a Darth Vader style life support suit capable of sustaining Roboute Guilliman through his physical injuries. This is no use as he was felled by a tainted weapon, but Cawl has had a modified tank carting it around with him everywhere ever since in the hope that some day he'd figure out a way to fix that.

The Ynnari can raise the dead.

They travel to Ultramar, which is under attack by another group of the Black Legion, and fight their way inside. The Ynnari - greeted with great suspision by the Ultramarines - and Imperials are bickering about whether or not to try it - the majority of the Ultramarines don't want to risk it, while their chief librarian does - when the fortress is breached by chaos space marines.

In the fighting as the Imperials and Eldar are being defeated by the Chaos Legionnaries, Yvraine and Cawl cut off the stasis field around Guilliman, he dies immediately; Yvraine does her sorcery, and Cawl puts him into the Darth Vader suit.

Guilliman rises, and immediately kicks the stuffing out of everything in reach, then takes over command of the defence and kicks the stuffing out of the Black Legion - who are thoroughly demoralized by this.

Pilgrims flock from all sides to Ultramar, and Guilliman decides that he has to go to Holy Terra, setting out with the survivors of the imperial faction. The Ynnari eldar depart at this point, but do say they hope to work alongside the Imperium again.

Many adventures follow, and ultimately Guilliman reaches Terra, goes into the chamber of the Golden Throne, and emerges again days later.

He proclaims himself Lord Commander of the Imperium, Leader of the High Lords of Terra, by the Will of the Emperor.
Image

As Saint Celestine has been supporting him, and Archmagos Cawl, as well as naturally, a very great number of space marines, the High Lords are forced to accept this. Guilliman removes several from office and replaces them, and Archmagos Cawl is sent to Mars to complete the other project Guilliman asked him to start long ago, and with a mandate to return innovation to the Adeptus Mechanicus.

There is jubilation across the Imperium and the leadership of Guilliman begins to turn the tide against chaos...

Elsewhere, the Ynnari are working with craftworld eldar to fight a host of daemons, when necrons appear and attack the Daemons. The Ynnari try to stop the craftworlders firing on the necrons once the daemons are dead, but do not succeed, and they are quite put out that the chance to make peace between eldar and necron is lost, for now.

Guilliman proclaims that the Second Great Crusade is to begin.

Faction Statuses:
Adeptus Mechanicus - Innovation is now legal. Science is permitted by order of the Lord Commander and the Emperor-Omnissiah.
Craftworld Eldar - Diminished in various ways, the new hotness is Ynnari
Chaos - Advancing everywhere, but losing momentum.
Dark Eldar - There are Daemons swarming in their house and a big chunk of their working class has run off.
Imperium - Bloodied but hopeful. The Dark Eldar are almost a non-issue now, competent leadership is here. The Imperium is rejoicing at the return of Guilliman.
Orks - Orking around. No change.
Tau - Irrelevant, Cawl ended their imperial ambitions with a superweapon in a previous book.
Tyranids - Heavily engaged with the Blood Angels and Necrons on the far side of the galaxy.

Don't believe me?
GW's Imperial Propaganda website
GW's community news website
Heroes of the Gathering Storm model releases.
Vs Scenario

I'll be assuming the borg directly replace the Black Legion forces and the chaos forces in the Eye of Terror, but not the entire chaos faction, nor that other warp storms close.

I'll discuss how they compare both solo to the necrons.

And to the Eldar and Imperials as well.

Next post, logistics.
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Re: What would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons (WH40K) entail?

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

All I can say about those spoiler is...fuck. I knew things were shaking up with the Gathering Storm, but I didn't realise jut how much. Awesome!
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Re: What would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons (WH40K) entail?

Post by NecronLord »

Spoiler
I'm happily imagining Archmagos Cawl looking at captured borg nanoprobes, and then quietly humming, "What if we put them in tyranids"
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Re: What would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons (WH40K) entail?

Post by Q99 »

Spoiler
I'm surprised a Sister- Celestine- got to do something aweomse!

And of course Lower-Class Dark Eldar would be the converts- why, they're hardly worthy of the name! True Dark Eldar know how to take pleasure in the suffering of others with or without the Thirst! Also they make their lower class in artificial wombs and use slaves, so a temporary setback.

Anyway, 40k certainly has become something different here. Plot progress but also a change in direction.
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Re: What would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons (WH40K) entail?

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

NecronLord wrote:Spoiler
I'm happily imagining Archmagos Cawl looking at captured borg nanoprobes, and then quietly humming, "What if we put them in tyranids"
Suddenly, those Hellfire rounds the Sternguard Veterans can take seem even more awesome. I can just imagine the "Assimilate" special rule: "Models that take an unsaved wound from weapons or attacks with this rule role a D6, on a 4+ they become controlled by the other player."
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

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Re: What would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons (WH40K) entail?

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Don't the Necrons use non warp based but super slow FTL? And then build telporter gates between existing sites that they stopped building able to build or something? If its all Necrons vs all Borg the Necrons may have a very hard time actually defeating the Borg, while the Borg might randomly figure out how to generate enough firepower to break even given enough centuries of trying.

Also thank god for the news that something ever changed in the actual advancement of time in the 40K universe! Now they have no more excuses for looking weaker then space islamic-saddamistan. We've got real life flying chainsaws now and all.
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Re: What would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons (WH40K) entail?

Post by NecronLord »

Logistics Part 1 - FTL

The most important category, and as Skimmer points out, if you can’t get there, you can’t fight, which is why FTL is at the very top of this list. The Borg have several types of FTL of note, they’re all cousins, in that they’re ‘warp’ and ‘transwarp’ but the effects are very different.

Type A Butressed Transwarp Conduit Network

Probably the greatest asset the borg have, these may be the same as type B, but internal buttresses are clearly seen, and they’re based around transwarp hubs. For this we’re going to assume that the hubs in each quadrant are already in place.

I don’t have the clip but would appreciate if anyone could time it. I’d estimate it at about five minutes to travel what is at least sixteen thousand light years – as it would take Janeway sixteen years to get back home otherwise by dialogue, and we know Voyager can manage about a thousand light years per year.

53 ly/second approx.

Disadvantages are that it can be detected from a little over three light years away by neutrino emissions (I’m reminded of Curtis’ description of neutrino-radiators for high energy applications) and graviton flux from the hub, and of course, vulnerability to the hub being attacked and destroyed.


Type B Transwarp Conduit

1.22 the conduit opens, 1:33 the ship enters and 1:43 the light on the bridge returns to normal, indicating they’re back in a normal spacetime reference. So, 65 light year jumps in a ten second hop, extremely impressive.

6.5 ly/second, with a ten second time period to spool up.

On weakness is that it can be accessed by the enemy.

Note that although that clip appears in the context of Hugh’s borg, we also see a conduit used by a cube in ‘Dark Frontier’ the Hansens follow, and travel all the way to the delta quadrant.
MAGNUS [OC]: Field notes, U.S.S. Raven, Stardate 32629.4: after three months of tracking our Borg cube, the vessel entered a transwarp conduit. We followed in its wake. Our sensors tell us we've travelled all the way to the Delta quadrant, the Borg's native territory.
This one might be the buttressed type A, of course, so we can’t necessarily say that freestanding conduits are capable of crossing the galaxy.

Transwarp Coils
TORRES: If I could equip our engines with even one coil, we could shave about twenty years off this trip.
[…]
Captain's log, stardate 52619.2. We got another twenty thousand light years out of the transwarp coil before it gave out. I figure we're a good fifteen years closer to home.
It’s described at different points as travelling through a conduit, but also it seems to function like a very excellent warp drive, it’s not clear how far the unacomplex is from Voyager in this episode, so estimating range is impossible, but it can clearly let the user pick a direction and travel fifteen or twenty thousand light years in short order. Very good range, no limitations, but it can be stolen comparatively easily.
Realspace (Trans)warp Travel

We see cubes travelling at what is presumably battle speed in Scorpion, as they’ve been drawn together as a fleet and are on their way to attack

5.8 light years behind at 0:27 and 2.1 Ly of the sublight voyager at 1:00 overtake at 1:18 seconds.

0.11 Ly/sec from 18 seconds to cross 2.1 Ly
0.11 Ly/sec from 51 seconds to cross 5.8 light years (Good job at consistency writers!)

Notably this attack fleet causes Voyager to lose warp while the cubes are still more than two light years away, that’s a hell of a bow-wave.


No really appreciable weaknesses here, but we should remember that this probably represents an attack speed that damages their engines or consumes vast quantities of fuel, as we have seen them travelling much slower at times. We don’t know how far they can sustain this speed in real-space.


Summary of Borg Speeds:

Code: Select all

 Type of Travel			Ly/Sec		Speed		Time to cross the galaxy
Buttressed Conduit		53		1.6e9 C		31 Minutes
Freestanding Conduit		6.5		2.0e8 C		4.2 hours
Transwarp Coil			Not Known	Not Known	Not Known
Warp Travel (Attack Speed)	0.11		3.4e6 C		10.5 days 
Necron FTL

Now herein hangs a tale of many contradictions. As 40K has gone through edition changes, the necrons have had some severe changes in this area:

3rd Edition

The first time we’re given any details of necron FTL, this period also includes the Battlefleet Gothic wargame. Necrons were described as being equipped with…

“Armed with weapons of god-like power and ships that could cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye, the Necrontyr stood ready to begin their war anew” ~ P.25 Codex Necrons 3rd edition.

If you go back far enough on the forum you’ll find me talking about this at length, and all the other examples of the lore at that point concurred roughly with that extreme speed. In this edition, necrons had ‘inertialess drives’ for their FTL.


5th Edition

Around this point the producers realized that this was a laughable advantage, and along with a seires of other debuffs to make my favourite killer robots less effective, they removed the inertialess drive. I can’t provide proof of this, because it’s from talking to writers involved at Warhammer Fest and Games Day before it, but the objective at this point (from Alan Merett, who no longer works for GW) was for GW to remove any form of FTL from every race that wasn’t a version of warp travel, or the webway.

So in this edition, the necrons used something called ‘Dolmen Gates’ to access the Eldar Webway, but they had only intermittent access to it, and some necron worlds used actual-factual slower-than-light stasis ships.

Image

This was inconsistent even at the time, as this edition also introduced Iori Delta Tove, and the World Engine, necron mobile planets, which travelled through space at FTL velocities by undisclosed means, and various necron units used worm-holes captured inside them, most notably Night Scythes, a form of supersonic aerospace fighter that was used as a troop delivery mechanism, something like Wraith Darts in Stargate Atlantis, and the Monolith.

They were described as pulling troops from distant worlds to deposit them on the battlefield, and using wormholes.

Essentially this has been a bit of a hackjob.

7th Edition

Inertialess Drives came back, after a fashion:
Turning his fleet toward the glinting crimson orbs of Cryptus, Anrakyr engaged his inertialess drive, his vast Necron armada streaking off into the void. Unlike the ships of the Imperium, those of the Necrons did not travel through the Warp, and so the great psychic barrier cast out by the Hive Mind was no impediment to their fleet.
But there’s also a reiteration of the lore in a recent White Dwarf magazine too:

Image

GW urgently needs to employ a continuity advisor.

In the novel 'World Engine' one of the C'tan Shards claims that it designed the devices that allowed the planet Borsis to journey across the galaxy, it seems likely that this god-being may have also had a hand in the inertialess drive, which may explain why they are so rare; the necrons now keep the 'shards' of the C'tan inprisoned, but are not able to truly enslave them, or make them produce anything. This is speculative, however.


The webway has millions of exit apertures, but travel times vary, depending on where you enter and want to leave, you can be ambushed and waylaid, and there are sections that are damaged.

A necron ship with inertialess drive – which some sources say exist – is grossly superior, able to cross the galaxy in an even shorter time than the borg, but those without are inferior.

Preponderance of evidence in recent sources shows that the necrons generally, with Anrakyr the Traveller’s fleet being an obvious exception, lack reliable FTL to compete with the borg, their ships can get around, but not with the same scale of convenience.

The Eldar use the webway, and humans use warp travel, which is approximately 100,000 C depending on source and details.

For the Eldar, travel across the galaxy can be done in some cases in a matter of days using the webway - for instance in the novel Valedor, they travel to Craftworld Iyanden on one side of the galaxy to Biel-Tan on the other without much trouble on foot in what seems like a few hours.

Necrons with Inertialess drives are faster, but are very rare in modern source materials. Most necrons use limited access to the webway.

For the Imperium, it can take up to a year, but on some very rare occasions, mere weeks to cross the galaxy. That's for the best ships, others take far longer, down to local 'chartist' ships which may take years to make a journey of a hundred light years or so - it's been covered in some detail elsewhere so I won't dwell on this here.

Gathering Storm update:
In the Gathering Storm books, the warp is stirred up and navigation becomes impossible for the Imperium in many areas. Navigation is still possible, but worse than it was previously.

Outcome
I really have to award this one to the borg in a sweep. Their FTL is reliable, they understand it and can deploy it, all their ships have it, they have their own equivalent to the webway which is better maintained. They can expand their transwarp network as they please as far as we know, and no doubt have other tricks they can use.
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Re: What would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons (WH40K) entail?

Post by SolarpunkFan »

NecronLord wrote:*Snip*
Ooh, thanks! :D

Maybe a fanfiction would be called for. I do have a friend who knows how to write fiction better than I, maybe it's finally time to solicit some advice from him...
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Re: What would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons (WH40K) entail?

Post by NecronLord »

Solarpunk: I actually started a fanfiction way back when, not with the borg but with the Asurans from Stargate Atlantis – it was a little different as it’s from their perspective. It’s around about the time the thread you found was originally posted, and never got finished, but it might amuse. I’m no great writer now, and I was worse back then, so calibrate your expectations. Link

Logistics - Part 2

Numbers

In third edition we could have answered with some precision as to the strength of the necron navy, we don't have that luxury now, but we can say something about just how many of them there are. There are known to be 'countless billions' of necrons.


By comparison, Dark Frontier gives us Tuvok scanning Unacomplex 01:

"I'm detecting thousands of integrated substructures, trillions of life-forms... all Borg".

I’d tentatively give this to the borg, by maybe two orders of magnitude – countless billions is a vague figure, while trillions is explicitly over a trillion.

Outcome: Borg win, but the Imperium of Man outstrips them if participating.

Territory

"Thousands of Solar Systems, all borg"

Vs

"These Tomb Worlds represent no more than a handful of the many millions spread throughout the galaxy....Who can say how many far-flung outposts of man have their foundations set upon a planet long ago claimed by an immeasurably old civilisation, inhabitants blissfully unaware of the slumbering horror at their planet's core."

The necrons potentially have more territory, but most of the necrons are asleep, and we’re looking more at a fraction of this, I’d say there’s no clear winner here, it could be that there are more active necron planets, but I have no quote to support that. Their potential is great, but the reality isn’t known.

The Imperium of Man actually controls a million worlds, and oustrips the borg, of course. Eldar populations are debatable but small.

Outcome: Unclear. Imperium win if we include them.

Industry

The industrial processes of the necrons are essentially replicators, called ‘snythesis chambers’ , we’re shown them in one of the Black Crusade adventure books, where complex machines can be 3D printed and appear to just emerge from the floor of a large chamber; necron scarabs also use matter-energy-matter transmutation to produce more of themselves, while canoptek spyders use them to repair other necrons.

I’d say this is parity, we’ve never seen the borg industrial process in any detail, but they presumably have replicators.

I’d think replicators are faster per job, but the necron version in the RPG has simultaneous capacity. Both use highly automated mining processes.

Both have a more streamlined manufacturing process than the eldar or imperium of man.

The sheer scale of the Imperium of Man’s manufacturing base shouldn’t be discounted, and I’m going to give this category to them in my opinion, simply because of the prescence of things like forge worlds, which are similar in appearance to borg worlds, and presumably function.

Outcome – Imperium of Man, if participating, otherwise Borg.

Positioning of forces

The Borg’s key facilities are generally hidden in nebulae – Unamatrix 01, the Transwarp Hub, etc, while they have planets for industrial resources. The core of their space is quite dense compared to the necrons.

The necrons facilities are often buried, but their empires are diffuse and spread out.

I’d give this to the borg, vs the necrons alone, but the Imperium at least, does have solid positioning of its forces. I’m still counting it as a borg win, given that they’re operating from difficult to locate bases and their space is quite a dense tangle of supporting infrastructure.

Communications

The 5th edition 40k core rulebook describes the necron trans-galactic communication network as shattered and parts of it under the control of other species. They can operate clearly at inter-sector ranges, which would be thousands of light years, but this isn’t as good as what the borg have.

The Imperium communicates by astro-telepath, and their communications can be jammed by bad astral weather.

The Eldar craftworlds are able to communicate rapidly between themselves and their outposts, as presumably are the corsairs, by sending psychic signals through the webway, but appear to somewhat limited in bandwidth – as in Valedor.

A clear borg win.


Overall winners
The Borg – they can communicate and travel better, their industry must be impressive, but the sheer numbers the Imperium offers should not be discounted.

A special mention should be made of the process of assimilation; as an example, the Imperial Planet Serephis Secundus has a population of twelve billion, most of whom are feudal serfs, and only a small guard has access to tools like grenades and lasguns; planets such as this commonly have no defence force in orbit, and could provide billions of new drones. It would be possible for the borg to rapidly expand their numbers using tactics such as simply proceeding to planets like that and beaming up the population - the example planet lacks surface based shield emplacements, too.
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Re: What would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons (WH40K) entail?

Post by NecronLord »

Ground Combat

Necrons react to an assessment of Borg ground combat ability.
Remember the categories? There’s an extensive list of things an army ought to have or that should be looked at. The necrons have most of them, from pistols through to tanks, air-cover, artillery.

The Imperium has literally all of them, as do the eldar.

The necrons have scarabs, which aren’t covered on that list, but are also supremely useful.

The Games Workshop webstore is adequate enough evidence for all categories of war machine being represented that I’m not going to give any sort of breakdown.


The borg have handguns, maybe. Personal shields, definitely, and body armour.

But it won’t matter. Any engagement on the ground, or any boarding action against them, they’re dead. It doesn’t matter whether or not their shields block 40k smallarms, they won’t block heavy autocannons, or other weapons. This hardly requires more time than that.

Every 40K army rips the borg to pieces and then stamps on the pieces and throws them into a fire.

40k wins this one easily, every faction wins it, and if they're allied to fight the borg, they win it three times over.
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Re: What would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons (WH40K) entail?

Post by SolarpunkFan »

Hmm, so what I'm seeing is that the Necrons probably can't depend on moving from location to location to win a war. But they'd win pretty handily if they have their forces concentrated around areas important to them, yes?
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Re: What would a fight between the Borg and the Necrons (WH40K) entail?

Post by Rogue 9 »

SolarpunkFan wrote:Hmm, so what I'm seeing is that the Necrons probably can't depend on moving from location to location to win a war. But they'd win pretty handily if they have their forces concentrated around areas important to them, yes?
Yes. When the Imperium of Man accidentally awakens a Necron tomb that they've unknowingly set up shop over, they invariably get their asses utterly kicked, and they deploy massive combined arms forces to try to stop that from happening. The Borg have haphazardly deployed, and extremely slow, infantry without armor or air support. They can't possibly do better.
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