[DW] Day Of The Doctor Questions

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How is Day Of The Doctor timeline supposed to work?

Poll ended at 2017-02-19 12:10pm

Retcon - Ten and Eleven change what happened the first time
3
30%
Loop - Ten and Eleven were always there but couldn't remember it.
6
60%
Other - Explain in comment
1
10%
 
Total votes: 10

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Crazedwraith
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[DW] Day Of The Doctor Questions

Postby Crazedwraith » 2017-02-05 12:10pm

Something I was pondering as a result of something said in the other Doctor Who thread. How do you think the Day Of The Doctor works in-universe? What I've termed the retcon idea - That the War Doctor really did blow up Gallifrey and the Daleks the 'first time around' and then Eleven and Ten came back and changed things so it didn't happen. Or did it always happen the way we saw in Day of The Doctor and we're only just now seeing what really happened because of the plot-amnesia thing.

Or some third theory I haven't heard yet.

The other thing, since I've forgotten what was said and am too lazy to remember, is just when does Nine remember up until? Does he remember the moment's form? Does it explain why he went back for Rose to convince her to be a companion? And his and Ten's partiality to her?
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Re: [DW] Day Of The Doctor Questions

Postby Tribble » 2017-02-05 02:12pm

Well I was the one who brought it up in another thread, so I may as well start things off. I admit that it's just my personal take on things, and based on what we see it could go either way.

It's been established that multiple timelines can exist and overlap with one another. For example, there is a timeline where the Doctor died at Trenzalore, and one where he didn't, and both of them exist simultaneously from his perspective. He tries to avoid that kind of thing where possible, as mixing up the timelines that way can be... bad. Fortunately as he is the main character of the show things usually work out for him.

Based on the dialog, IMO the Moment was explicitly showing the War Doctor future versions of himself where he had destroyed Gallifrey (aka the Doctors that the audience had been following). However, it kept making the point that they were wrong to assume that their future was fixed, and when they finally figured that out they were able to change it. Both timelines still exist, but the one where Gallifrey was saved is now the "primary" timeline so to speak (just as the timeline where the Doctor survived Trenzalore is now the primary timeline.) Unfortunately, due to timey-winey the Doctor wouldn't know that his past had been changed until his 11th incarnation.

As for your other questions:

just when does Nine remember up until?

From the Ninth's Doctor's perceptive, all he knows is that he destroyed Gallifrey.

Does he remember the moment's form?

He doesn't remember meeting the Moment at all, apparently.

Does it explain why he went back for Rose to convince her to be a companion? And his and Ten's partiality to her?


The Moment chose the "Bad Wolf" form because it was a part of the Doctor's life. It admitted it mixed things up as it realised that it chose a form from the War Doctor's future rather than his past. The 9th Doctor would not remember the events which is why he didn't recognize Rose instantly as the person the Moment was referring to.


Again, personal opinion.
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Re: [DW] Day Of The Doctor Questions

Postby SpottedKitty » 2017-02-05 02:23pm

I chose "Other" because I consider it a single, unbroken thread of events, like the plot logic of Harry Harrison's Technicolor© Time Machine. The only reason it appears so untidy is because the wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey nature of the event itself makes it look like a plate of spaghetti. And the Moment's nature (Causality? What's causality?) isn't helping.
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Re: [DW] Day Of The Doctor Questions

Postby Crazedwraith » 2017-02-05 05:11pm

As I forgot to mention it in the OP I favour the loop idea. That it was always done this way and because of the memory wipe they just didn't know. It seems simply to me more elegant. Like that loop in Prisoner of Azkaban.

And because there's no external impetus for the time line crossing there's just The Moment that does it; it makes sense to me that this happened the first time. But then Moment is probably capable of any amount of timey wimeyness.
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Re: [DW] Day Of The Doctor Questions

Postby Iroscato » 2017-02-05 06:17pm

Loop, in my opinion. At the end the status quo was effectively unchanged - the timelines coming out of sync lead to both the War Doctor and 10 forgetting the events of DotD had ever happened, which would cause 9 to stumble out of post-regeneration thinking that he in fact destroyed both species. Therefore, it doesn't "need" to be an overwrite, because all the pieces are in place for the loop to be the true actual nature of events.
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Re: [DW] Day Of The Doctor Questions

Postby Tribble » 2017-02-05 06:21pm

Chimaera wrote:Loop, in my opinion. At the end the status quo was effectively unchanged - the timelines coming out of sync lead to both the War Doctor and 10 forgetting the events of DotD had ever happened, which would cause 9 to stumble out of post-regeneration thinking that he in fact destroyed both species. Therefore, it doesn't "need" to be an overwrite, because all the pieces are in place for the loop to be the true actual nature of events.


Fair enough - it's open to interpretation. My view is based on my interpretation of the dialog in the episode, plus the precedents of Amy's life, Rory's life and the Doctor's life on Trenzalore:

Amy always grew up without parents, and always grew up with parents.
Rory always grew up as a human and died... and always lived for 2,000+ years as an Auton... and always lived another life as a human.
The Doctor always died on Trenzalore... and always survived Trenzalore.

So the Doctor could have always used the Moment to destroy Gallifrey, the Moment always gave him the opportunity to change his mind, and the Doctor always took the opportunity to save Gallifrey. It's still a loop IMO, just bigger. Or from the Doctor's perspective it's not really a loop at all - wibbly wobbely timey winey.

This does make me need to change my vote to "other" though, now that I think of it.
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Re: [DW] Day Of The Doctor Questions

Postby Lord Revan » 2017-02-05 06:44pm

In my opinion storywise it doesn't matter if the Doctor truly destroyed Gallifrey or not, what matters that as far the 9th incarnation know he did and thus carries the guilt for that action driving the Doctor's character for most of the new Who, of basically re-earning the use of the name "Doctor" and coming to terms with Time War and his actions in it.
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Re: [DW] Day Of The Doctor Questions

Postby TimothyC » 2017-02-05 07:50pm

About 26 minutes in, when the time portal first opens in 2013, Eleven says "Oh no, not now, I'm busy!" and "I remember this, almost remember. <Beat> Oh, of course. This is where I come in." This is why I voted for a 'Loop', although I prefer the 'always happened that way'.
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Re: [DW] Day Of The Doctor Questions

Postby Tribble » 2017-02-05 11:07pm

Just showing the dialog which I feel could be interpreted as a Retcon (or rather, a Retcon which was always going to happen):

The first time we see the War Doctor, as he is overlooking the ruins of some planet:

War: What I did, I did without choice.
Eleven: I know.
War: In the name of peace and sanity.
Eleven: But not in the name of the Doctor.


I always saw that scene as taking place after the War Doctor had used the Moment to destroy Gallifrey.

The Moment: One day you will count them. One terrible night. Do you want to see what that will turn you into? Come on, aren't you curious? I'm opening windows on your future. A tangle in time through the days to come, to the man today will make of you.


IMO the Moment decided to show the War Doctor a future (aka the future we the audience was watching) where he had destroyed Gallifrey. YMMV of course.

Ten: It must be really recent for you.
War: Recent?
Eleven: The Time War. The last day. The day you killed them all.
Ten: The day we killed them all.
Eleven: Same thing.
The Moment: It's history for them. All decided. They think their future is real. They don't know it's still up to you.


IMO the Moment was pointing out to the War Doctor that their history was not yet fixed, and it could be changed if they wanted it to.

War: I don't know who you are, either of you. I haven't got the faintest idea.
The Moment: They're you. They're what you become if you destroy Gallifrey. The man who regrets and the man who forgets. The moment is coming. The Moment is me. You have to decide.


Again, IMO the Moment is showing a reality where the Doctor had destroyed Gallifrey.

Ten: These events should be time-locked. We shouldn't even be here.
Eleven: So something let us through.


We've seen in a previous episodes "Journey's End" and "End of Time" that time locks can be broken and history be re-written, no surprise that the Moment could do so.

Ten: You're not actually suggesting that we change our own personal history?
Eleven: We change history all the time. I'm suggesting far worse.
War: What, exactly?
Eleven: Gentlemen, I have had four hundred years to think about this. I've changed my mind.


IMO this suggest a re-write over them discovering that they had saved Gallifrey the whole time.

Ten: But there's something those billion billion Daleks don't know.
Eleven: Because if they did, they'd probably send for reinforcements.
Moffat-Sure Clara: What? What don't they know?
Eleven: This time, there's three of us.


Same as above.

War: She didn't just show me any old future, she showed me exactly the future I needed to see.
Moment: Now you're getting it.


This shows that there can be more than one future. Also, by showing the Doctor a reality where Gallifrey was destroyed, it helped the War Doctor solve the problem.

(Doctors explain their plan)
General: What? Even if that were possible, which it isn't, why would you do such a thing?
Eleven: Because the alternative is burning.
Ten: And I've seen that.
Eleven: And I never want to see it again.


Same as above.

Again, YMMV for sure, I'm just showing where my viewpoint comes from (especially when you include Trenzalore). Or in other words, that I'm not just pulling it out of my ass to raise controversy :P

It's certainly open to interpretation for sure.
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Re: [DW] Day Of The Doctor Questions

Postby FaxModem1 » 2017-02-06 01:41pm

I'd prefer that it actually happened, and then was rewritten, as otherwise, the Doctor spends a lot of his new series incarnations whining about stuff that never happened, and it takes the wind out of his sails. It ruins the drama of Parting of the Ways, of Dalek, etc.
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Re: [DW] Day Of The Doctor Questions

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-02-06 03:09pm

But see, in the Doctor's mind it is real. He did do that. And weather he actually did or not, he meant to, and he would have gone through with it (presumably) without the Moment and Clara both intervening to stop him. So the guilt is real as well.

Edit: In short, weather he actually ever pushed the button or not, he made a deliberate choice to murder billions of his own people.
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Re: [DW] Day Of The Doctor Questions

Postby Crazedwraith » 2017-02-06 03:11pm

FaxModem1 wrote:I'd prefer that it actually happened, and then was rewritten, as otherwise, the Doctor spends a lot of his new series incarnations whining about stuff that never happened, and it takes the wind out of his sails. It ruins the drama of Parting of the Ways, of Dalek, etc.


I know what you mean but I think for me Eccleston's acting still sells it of me in those episodes.
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Re: [DW] Day Of The Doctor Questions

Postby FaxModem1 » 2017-02-06 03:27pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
FaxModem1 wrote:I'd prefer that it actually happened, and then was rewritten, as otherwise, the Doctor spends a lot of his new series incarnations whining about stuff that never happened, and it takes the wind out of his sails. It ruins the drama of Parting of the Ways, of Dalek, etc.


I know what you mean but I think for me Eccleston's acting still sells it of me in those episodes.


Yes, but it makes that old joke about the Time War just being a picnic that went out of control more true, as there really were no named casualties in the war.Rassilon, the Master, the Cult of Skaro, the Emperor, Davros, etc. All survived. Now Skaro and Gallifrey did as well, so nothing really happened.
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Re: [DW] Day Of The Doctor Questions

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-02-06 03:28pm

Except for the billions of ordinary people who suffered and died, of course.
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Re: [DW] Day Of The Doctor Questions

Postby jwl » 2017-04-12 07:20pm

I follow the retcon theory, for the reasons gribble suggested, but also because of evidence in other episodes like The Beast saying the doctor killed his own people, based off his own knowledge and not from anything the doctor said, and the gallifreyan seer foreseeing gallifrey burning.


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